posted January 06, 2017 01:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:

If you're [b]dead set on Socialist Single Payer health care...Emigrate.[/B]

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We have Socialist Single Payer health care for a large portion of the population. It's called Medicare and Medicaid, and it's been working well for several decades. The only issue is figuring out how best to expand it to the rest of the population.

As far as emigration, nah. I'm just gonna follow the lead of your Orange Hero and tell everyone whose looks or religion I don't like to go home. I can get away with that since my family has been here since 1620.

posted January 06, 2017 03:15 PM            

Obanacare is working great in states where the govts have put it to use. Many have obstructed its implementation, not the fault of the ACA.

posted January 06, 2017 08:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:
Ok, time to knock off the wheezing, whining, bombastic bloviating, ObamaCare horseshiiite.

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posted January 06, 2017 10:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
You're the only one wheezing, whining, and bombastic bloviating.

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posted January 06, 2017 11:45 PM            

Medicare is most definitely not a Socialist health care system. Those on Medicare paid into the system for most of their working lives...and are now receiving the benefits they already paid for. Call it....payment in advance collected over the working years of their lives. Prepaid!

posted January 07, 2017 10:18 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:

[b]…“and they will whine, and their caucus will whine, and they will keep on whinning, and eventually they will say we can’t take all of this losing, …please Mr. Schumer …and he will say, NO, we will whine, …and we will keep on whinning”…[/B]

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That's disrespectful towards the legitimate concern of more than 10 million people (who can lose their access to healthcare), since no clear plan/alternative has been proposed yet and the current man who implemented the idea of repeal gives only signs of daily NPD decompensation and systematic national divide, what do you expect of people??
And I am not a native English, so I don't know what whinning means.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted January 07, 2017 10:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:

Medicare is most definitely not a Socialist health care system. Those on Medicare paid into the system for most of their working lives...and are now receiving the benefits they already paid for. Call it....payment in advance collected over the working years of their lives. Prepaid!

The VA is most definitely a single payer government health care system and it sucks.

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We do not "prepay" Medicare. We pay Medicare taxes, just like we pay sales tax or federal income tax or any other tax, so that public services, like Medicare, that are too expensive or too complex for each person to purchase individually are available for those who need the services. That's why we have government in the first place.

posted January 07, 2017 10:57 AM            

We prepay for Medicare...since we can't use Medicare until we reach a specified age...and, in the meantime, we're making payments into the "fund".

I see you don't want to talk about the real single payer government run health care system that's killing people. Wonder why you and the rest of the leftist chorus don't want to talk about the VA!

Hey, you don't like the picture that accurately describes democrat whining crybabies, don't look at it.

Oh, and stop spreading the bullshiiite that people are going to lose health insurance coverage. There's no lie too big that leftists won't tell it.

But, since you opened that can of Obama worms, about 100,000,000 Americans lost their health insurance plans, lost their doctors and are paying about 50% more for their "mandated" ObamaCare policy....and, they have to pay $5,000 to $17,000 in deductibles before ObamaCare starts to pay.

posted January 07, 2017 11:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:
Wrong.

We prepay for Medicare...since we can't use Medicare until we reach a specified age...and, in the meantime, we're making payments into the "fund".

I see you don't want to talk about the real single payer government run health care system that's killing people. Wonder why you and the rest of the leftist chorus don't want to talk about the VA!

Hey, you don't like the picture that accurately describes democrat whining crybabies, don't look at it.

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You want to get rid of the VA?! That's how my dad gets medical care, for the most part. As long as you're sitting pretty, who gives a **** about everyone else, right? Even VETERANS.

posted January 07, 2017 11:09 AM            

Trump is going to give vouchers or a Veterans pay card so veterans...like your father...can be treated by non VA doctors...if they choose to do so.

posted January 07, 2017 11:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Delilah423:
LeeLoo,

As best as I can figure out, it happens in the U.S. because of (1) the belief among far too many that if only people worked hard enough they would be rich enough to pay their own way for everything; there is even a segment that believes that being poor is a punishment from God and if only they were better Christians they wouldn't be poor, (2) ignorance, the right-wing propaganda machine, and a complete annihilation in the last decade of the ability to discern fact from opinion. I've seen not only ignorance but disdain for facts become the norm, at least among the most vocal Trump supporters, and (3) selfishness and greed. Everyone wants government services for themselves, but about 1/2 of the voting population don't want to pay for it for the other guy and think that they deserve the help, but the other guys (by which they typically mean poor people and non-white people) do not.

The majority of Americans are so ignorant they don't understand that if they paid a bit more in taxes for universal health care, they (or their companies, if they're lucky enough to work for a company that provides health insurance) would pay a lot less for medical insurance and actually end up saving money.

Sadly, the same people who wish to destroy Obamacare are also in the process of quietly but deliberately destroying public education, which has been a hallmark of our society for nearly 200 years.

The U.S. is in the midst of an ultra-right wing revolution that will, I'm afraid, set us back at least 50 to 100 years in terms of education, prosperity, freedom, and equality, if we are even still here 4 years from now, given the propensity for the Great Orange Idiot to flap his jaws about nuclear weapons. It is horrifically frightening and sickening.

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Hello, Delilah, so nice to talk to you! Happy New 2017!

Thank you so much for the analysis

if they paid a bit more in taxes for universal health care, they (or their companies, if they're lucky enough to work for a company that provides health insurance) would pay a lot less for medical insurance and actually end up saving money.

Exactly! This says it all, and it's been tried on a grand scale at this point, successfully. Of course there are always better ways to do it and various methods to choose from and why not? create new ones.

As for the reason, that is a very interesting topic to me because I have lived and also studied mass manipulation techniques and sociopolitical psychology. This is an interesting article to start the debate with: http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/05/opinion/why-rural-america-voted-for-trump.html and as usually, the comments are equally revelatory. There is a lot to say on the topic, but my focus would be, as first simple ideas: I disagree with the author and the general idea that people genuinely believe people are bad/ or want/need authoritarianism, but they can systematically be "kept" under such beliefs, through an exploitation of natural human weakness points (such as submissiveness, compliance, fear of the unknown, fear of change, greed, self-preservation etc.) through state or local apparatuses (school education, mass media, political models, churches).
This happens and has happened all over the world, it's not specific to the US.
The interesting and scary part about the US is the contrast I mentioned (it is clearly seen in the divide in the comments). This divide has reached an absurd proportion with this election, imo. And it's a fake divide, politically perpetuated, redundant when it comes to the common purpose of the majority, despite their political leanings. Funny thing is, the other two superpowers, China and Russia, also have a contrast, both being basically dictatorships, striving, in their own ways, for modern economic structures - which also bring about modern mentalities, always, in the end. Two superpowers able to destroy the world in a blink, with contrasting medieval + modern politics/mentalities. Now, the big scare would be US officially joining the ranks here with a potential dictatorship. Despite the need for change (like everywhere), US has been viewed as promoting freedom and democratic values. I mean US has been in the ranks of power for a long time, but this contrast now is in plain view, as if it can't be ignored anymore, and I am not talking about international eyes only, but the impact on Americans.
Personally, I think this went that far (Trump is not your usual Republican win, to say the least) because the Rep vs Dem "battle" took Stanford prison experiment proportions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

which allowed for such a win.

How far can one identify with a given partisanship? ( the question in the Stanford experiment)

Looking it in the eye is a good thing though, since it's been formed there, in the background, for quite a while.
I see Trump's election as snowballing towards the dissolution of the bi-party political focus, and a change of political structures in the US (federal level, electoral process etc.) As for him, it's unlikely he will be or continue to be president, or have anything but an unusual presidency term.

It's been common, historically, to have a propaganda centered on individual work, courage, competition, wealth acquisition, bearing arms when one has a vast land to work and subdue, how else to work and control it, how else to get people out there? No longer relevant in present times, when this stage is done.

I think there will be a revolution, but towards the opposite direction, eventually

to be continued

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted January 07, 2017 11:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Novabronte:
From the statistics below it looks like whoever has been running USA in recent years, has done a fine job of destroying your 'hallmark' education system. Y

Some stats:

According to Pearson (in 2015), the United States has a “cognitive skills and educational attainment” score of 0.39, which makes the United States rank fourteenth out of forty countries ranked in that category. The top ten countries (and their scores) are:

South Korea (1.30)
Japan (1.03)
Singapore (0.99)
Hong Kong (0.96)
Finland (0.92)
United Kingdom (0.67)
Canada (0.60)
Netherlands (0.58)
Ireland (0.51)
Poland (0.50)

According to the Program for International Student Assessment (in 2013), the average reading literacy score for U.S. fifteen-year old students is 498 (out of 1000 possible points). That is enough to make the United States rank twenty-fourth out of sixty-five educational systems ranked in that category. Shangai, China, ranked first, with a score of 570.

According to the 2013 report, The Learning Curve, developed by the Economist Intelligence Unit, the United States ranks seventeenth out of forty countries ranked in overall educational performance. Finland ranks first. The top ten countries in educational performance are:

Finland
South Korea
Hong Kong SAR
Japan
Singapore
United Kingdom
Netherlands
New Zealand
Switzerland
Canada.

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posted January 07, 2017 01:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Lee

I'm reading a book called The Nordic Theory of Everything. I've been on the fence about "socialized" health care for a while but that book put me over the edge and made me envy countries with well-functioning national health care.

I've heard from credible sources that universal health care is putting some countries like Canada in serious debt, but I haven't researched that.

The US is already so far in debt, so badly managed financially, it's just another reason one wonders how it could actually work here. We don't have the same principles, brains, and history as other countries, and haven't reaped the rewards that those virtues have granted to other countries, as they've deserved.

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Thank you, Faith I think the US will be ready for this in app 11-12 years, with a continuum from now on, so about a decade and the implemented model will be quite "traditional" in the sense that it will be the already implemented standard (elsewhere) ( and possibly inspired by the French and Canadian model) with a twist. Despite the lack of tradition in this respect, the US will enjoy and master this shift and the switch will be successful. Sorry to include forecasts here, but I find this so important for contemporary individual and social freedom: universal healthcare and education, so I just wanted to push for a little encouragement

As for those saying these models are socialist (such as the Nordic), studying their basic principles - or at least reading the definition - shows that they take further and combine important and valuable capitalistic and socialist principles together: such as free trade, private property combined with strong social services while basically rejecting defunct or dying Marxism and 20th century Capitalism. The Nordic Model is more of an improved capitalism.

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I seem to have loved you in numberless forms...

posted January 07, 2017 01:03 PM            

And no whinning please😂

posted January 07, 2017 01:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:

Trump is going to give vouchers or a Veterans pay card so veterans...like your father...can be treated by non VA doctors...if they choose to do so.

In any event, Trump is going to restructure the VA system and don't be surprised if some of those crooked administrators don't get indicted.

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Sigh. The former director of the Phoenix VA has already been convicted in federal court, as has one in Ohio (there may be others; no time to do more research for you). The system didn't need to wait for the Great Orange Savior for that to happen.

Vouchers sound like a good idea until you start looking at the details of how the system would work. Mostly, they are another scheme to put tax dollars in the hands of businesses and corporations to the detriment of the citizen. Costs tend to increase with privatization of government services.

Personally, if I were Queen of America, I'd consolidate all federal medical programs into one system (VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, etc.), probably based upon a model similar to Medicare. Then I'd gradually expand it to the entire population, eliminating the profit-taking middle men (insurance companies). They would/could still exist for clearly elective or luxury services, or to administer programs like they do now with Medicare Advantage.

posted January 07, 2017 01:52 PM            

If Medicare was truly "prepaid" in a manner that is somehow distinct from other government services, then once I spent what I had "prepaid," I'd be out of luck. Most people over 65 would spend what they paid-in (including earned interest) probably within their first year, and certainly after their first trip to the emergency room.

BTW, while most Medicare recipients are age 65+, that is not the only way to qualify for the program.

posted January 11, 2017 07:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Lee

I'm reading a book called The Nordic Theory of Everything. I've been on the fence about "socialized" health care for a while but that book put me over the edge and made me envy countries with well-functioning national health care.

I've heard from credible sources that universal health care is putting some countries like Canada in serious debt, but I haven't researched that.

The US is already so far in debt, so badly managed financially, it's just another reason one wonders how it could actually work here. We don't have the same principles, brains, and history as other countries, and haven't reaped the rewards that those virtues have granted to other countries, as they've deserved.

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well, there is problem of sustainability but in all healthcare systems. the reason is the speed of technological advance and the aging of the population in most developed countries that keeps adding services and cures and medicines to diseases. 50 years ago there were no cure for many diseases which are now seen as curable. not that I believe totally in these cures, but this is a challenge that all countries face (not only those one providing universal healthcare)

of course what would be universal and what privately paid is discussed in most countries, many countries providing universal healthcare review their list of benefits and either become astringend with certain technologies (for instance, they do not pay for certain diagnostics if they do not prove to really save lives) or they reduce the type of disease or situations when coverage is limited. for instance, many countries do not provide dental care (unless it is an emergency)

said that, this is a problem that private insurers face as well in the US. they see the raising cost of healthcare and try to limit the benefits offered or limit the amount paid, or want to cherry picked their patient pool. what is sad is in a system where private interest prevail, leave behind those who cannot afford or are less healthy. so which insurance would pay for a leukemia treatment or insure a patient with many comorbidities? what would be the rate to pay for that patient?

in universal healthcare system risk are distributed among the entire population and that help people who otherwise would be left behind. probably we will reach a point where only certain healtcare services will be provided universally (the most important ones) while the other will be paid privately. on the other hands, many countries are focusing a lot of health promotion and change in lyfestyle as it is less expensive to prevent than to cure. and I would say that with the lack of success of many hallopathic therapies, people will start moving toward more holistic and less expensive approach.

posted January 11, 2017 07:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:
Ok, time to knock off the wheezing, whining, bombastic bloviating, ObamaCare horseshiiite.

No one...and I mean [b]NO ONE is proposing repealing ObamaCare without a replacement in place and ready to go.

What this means in practice is that ObamaCare will be an option into the future...to a date certain while the replacement program is being erected and brought up to speed and ready for people to sign up with their selected insurance company and policies which meet their needs.

In other words, it's likely there will be ObamaCare and it's replacement operating at the same time through an overlap period of time.

Now, for those who want the Socialist single payer health care system, we already have it. It's called Veterans Care, operated through the Veterans Administration, the VA. It's a KILLER, staffed with lazy, uncaring bureaucratic loafers who let American Veterans die while waiting to see a doctor.

If you're dead set on Socialist Single Payer health care...Emigrate.[/B]

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posted January 11, 2017 07:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:

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posted January 11, 2017 10:01 AM            

It was unconstitutional to mandate the coverage and needs repealed in it`s current mandate.