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Author Topic:   The Scarlet Letter
Faith
Knowflake

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posted March 18, 2013 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't understand why people who cheat are spoken of in such monstrous terms.

Even celebrities who cheat on their boyfriends/girlfriends undergo a media assault that I find vicious.

Why do you think that is?

In our culture, where all kinds of relationships and behaviors have gained acceptance, including serial marriages, why are cheaters still almost universally hated?

While I didn't personally enjoy The Bridges of Madison County, the movie made me realize that I can't know exactly how other people feel or why they do things, therefore I shouldn't race to judgement.

ETA: Also, the more I understand astrology, the more I see all the ways that temptation can play out; some synastry aspects work like magnets, and people can fall prey to their emotions.

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somethingexcellent
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From: a red, dead scorpion
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posted March 18, 2013 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for somethingexcellent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it's more of the betrayal part of the act of cheating. Like, the person who was cheated on was probably expecting devotion and monogamy, and then everyone else expects that of the person too, it adds up with pity.

And especially celebrities, everything they do is under scrutiny. It's sort odd, yes, but celebrities and regular folk are different types of people, basically. EDIT! Plus the media publishers want to cash in on the latest scandal while it's still hot and fresh...

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mockingbird
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posted March 18, 2013 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mockingbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it's because everyone knows the pain of personal betrayal, so it's kind of a visceral reaction.

Just sleeping around...meh.
As long as everyone knows what's going on, it's all good.

------------------
If I've included this sig, it's because I'm posting from a mobile device.
Please excuse all outrageous typos and confusing auto-corrects.

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hippichick
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posted March 18, 2013 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hippichick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it lies in the minimindset of those that are prone to judgment...their way or no way...

I also think projection has alot to do with it....somebody may have cheated or have cheatin in mind and projects his/her issues with themselves onto others..

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aquaguy91
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From: tennessee
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posted March 18, 2013 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am normally the type of person who thinks cheating is wrong,period. I think if someone is going to cheat they need to end their current relationship unless its an open relationship.However I am watching something unfold that is changing my outlook on cheating. My old friend flew in to visit the other night and i took him to see an old flame. Heres the backstory:my friend was friends with this girl when he lived here 8+ years ago and always had a
crush on her but he never had
the guts to tell her and he
ended up moving away. As the
years passed me and him kept
in touch and we visited each
other occasionally and he never
stopped talking about this girl
and how she was the love of his
life even when he had a girlfriend.anyways about a year ago they got in contact with each other and she ended up admitting she had always had feelings for him too, but the twist to the story is she is
married and has a kid now. At first she was hesitant to get too involved with my friend but eventually they started talking on the phone and webcam everyday. They agreed to meet up and get "intimate" and thats what happened when he got here.Ever since they did the deed they have been texting each other nonstop and have met up two more times and plan to get a room together atleast one more time before my friend leaves. They are already talking about their future and she supposedly plans to leave her husband when my friend moves back here in august. I dont know about all this and find it to be very immoral to put it lightly but at the same time I know my friend is crazy about this girl and hope everything turns out ok for them, but i fear all this is something they will both regret.

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PixieJane
Knowflake

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From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010

posted March 18, 2013 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems to come down to 2 views to me.

One view: it's a betrayal of trust. It's easy to go partner to partner but monogamy (or even arranged polyamory) is harder and showing devotion is what makes it special. It tells your partner that you want more from them and for them than just sex, and because one is willing to do what is difficult to build that trust, and that's a very special feeling for most people. To love someone fully requires trust, and how can you trust someone who lies to you and has no impulse control, and thus how can you love them? It all comes down to that the feelings professed are a lie if one can't even be true when temptation strikes. People resist temptation all the time and a certain amount of impulse control is expected...and if a person isn't willing to fight impulses for a said person then s/he isn't scared of hurting that person at the very least and maybe what they have isn't as special as the other person thought.

Added into that is if a person is cheating then how do you know you're #1? That's not just an ego thing, that's a practical consideration if you're investing into a partner all the intimate details of your life and here s/he is with someone else, then how do you know the partner is even meaning to stay with you until the next best thing comes along (which is being shopped for)? Things like sharing your secrets and catching STDs from others is also a concerned.

Btw, cheating in this view is different from serial marriages as those who divorce and remarry aren't betraying anyone's trust (unless you count wedding vows).

Second View: The Golden Rule has nothing to do about it, but rather sexual morality. Men are frowned on for cheating, but women (as usual) soundly condemned because a man's behavior is in the hands of a woman (even when Jesus forgave the adulteress he didn't question the man's culpability). Heck, even underage girls are seen as controlling men by this type (though why such men are allowed to vote and such girls are not is never explained, but then this common kind of pseudo-morality isn't the sign of a rational mind). And one never misses a chance to prove one's own purity by **** shaming others. Patriarchal religions tend to encourage this (though I've noticed those who embrace this side also tend to overlook inconvenient bits and the parts about the Golden Rule and forgiveness for sins).

These types also tend to be overly concerned with patrilinear descent (which cheating can call into question) as well, as at a deep level the woman and her children are a man's property, and also continuation of that man (these types also tend to be concerned with things like racial purity as well, but not always). That said, the flip side is that a man is supposed to take care of a woman (he provides, and she takes care of, including having "his" children) and the kids not only to keep women & children under control but also keep them off of welfare (these types almost always hate welfare, too, and plenty also don't like the idea of independent women who don't need a man to take care of herself either, again rarely being concerned with kindness, only sexual "purity"), and likewise a woman's family may take it very ill if he betrays her as he is supposed to take care of her and cheating shows he' still on the market and possibly willing to dump her (and it's an insult saying she's not good enough for him). All in all a recipe for trouble, and that's often not welcome as life has troubles enough without adding to it.

Strangely enough, these types seem to accept divorce and remarriage. I know Christians who have no shame of divorcing for reasons other than infidelity (which means their future marriages are a sin and adulterous in the eyes of their god) and yet hypocritically condemn gay marriage (that's technically no more sinful than those who divorce and remarry) even when a gay marriage turns out to be a lot more true & loving than by those who take part in disposable marriages. But again, it's all about sexual hangups, not about actual ethics or the Golden Rule.

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teasel
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posted March 18, 2013 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Betrayal of trust.

And then you have the people who frown on those that the cheater wanted to sleep with (or do sleep with), and accept the cheater back with open arms. (That horse isn't even close to dead for me - although I wish we had another analogy.)

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SaturnineMoth
Knowflake

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From: Gaea's Omphalos
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posted March 18, 2013 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SaturnineMoth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm - think Pixie Jane has summed things up really nicely there~ (I wouldn't dig too deeply into the religious and cultural bits, but I do see them as being greatly relevant in so many situations like these.)

The thing that baffles me more is when the cheater (whatever gender) is hailed and/or forgiven by society~ which does happen, especially with celebrities.

Those cases, where you'll hear someone say, "oh, but she deserved better" "she got what she deserved,good for him moving onto greener pastures" and, basically, "way to go, (name)!" - sometimes even boosting their (3rd wheels too) popularity... eh?

Think of the diverse reaction to Tiger Woods and his mistresses for example~ but yeah - nvm - that's a bit off topic? lol anyway~

yeah... I think it's very strange how screwy people react sometimes... and sorry, but that sort of response to a cheating individual (or the one who has been cheated on, the extra person/people involved), is really beyond me...

moralist? IDK - I simply see no glory in an unfaithful union for either/all people involved.

The whole damn thing is a shame in my eyes.

And, sure you can see the people who engaged in the extramarital/relationship affair were tied by something in the stars~ but that in no way makes it acceptable, or understandable to me, in my mind, that they couldn't first respect their partner - and end things honestly, before entertaining a sexual/romantic relationship with another/others... sorry... but, I'm just not capable of letting matters slide so easily... (that does not mean I cannot forgive any of those people, but that I could not, for my own self respect and philosophy, ever have the same level of trust or respect in their character, or opinion of them as things go... just cannot. sorry.)

It may not be a Sin ('S')... maybe it is... iunno... but it is a Shame.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted March 18, 2013 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This Christian doesn't divorce, period.

Back to the conversation, my guilt conscience kicks in at the slightest nasty thoughts. That's not to say I'm not human and that I'm fundamentally sinful.

But if there were no rules for relationships and no rules for morality, I would be boffing anything that has a heartbeat and boobs.

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Faith
Knowflake

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posted March 18, 2013 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks very much for the replies! I have a lot to say and reply to on this topic, but no time to do so right now as my family circus is in full swing...

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Faith
Knowflake

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posted March 19, 2013 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I read part of Elizabeth Gilbert's book Committed, and part of another history of marriage, and both argue that the modern American conception of marriage is a relatively new development that would have been considered a disastrously bad idea in other times and places. "Marriage on the basis of something as fickle as love?? You're kidding!!"

Thing is, the older I get, the more I see how complicated marriage sometimes is. People stay together for many reasons beside love, and sometimes neither party is really striving to keep the communication open and honest. If someone cheats when the marriage is already one of convenience, is it as bad as when the marriage is based on love?

My friend's friend is a Pisces man who cheats on his Leo wife. Why does he cheat on his wife? Because he is emotionally bankrupt, probably. His wife has spent all their savings behind his back more than once and refuses to say where the money went, and he caught her making out with another guy before. They didn't get divorced for the kids' sake...their daughter has a panic attack disorder and she becomes very ill any time divorce is mentioned.

Everything about this man's life is pitiful. He has worked himself to the ground for his family and gets no satisfaction in return. So I will just be honest...I don't care that he cheats on his wife. It doesn't shock me, disturb me, or seem scandalous. I feel like he is just getting by.

Then, like aquaguy said, there are people who are probably on the verge of getting married themselves, but one person is transitioning out of a relationship. I think sometimes this is "taking the easy way out" and maybe accruing some bad karma. I think there are probably other situations where I could have sympathy for the cheater.

I think society judges things on a case by case basis, like saturnine said~ Ashton Kutcher seems forgiven for cheating on Demi, because she was a drunken mess, apparently. But Kristen Stewart's reputation has taken a serious hit because what really justifies home wrecking like that? It seems very stupid.

As for projection issues, and being able to put oneself in the shoes of the person who get cheated on...I think that's the main thing underlying people's contempt for cheaters. But I think it's the lying that is more bothersome than the cheating.

I knew a woman whose husband cheated on her a few times. He was her "soul mate," and she forgave it. As long as he confessed what he did, he was forgiven. But as soon as the husband got caught cheating...with no confession...she divorced him.

For a number of years I dated my best guy friend off and on, and sometimes he would go out with other girls. I loved this guy so much I didn't even care that he dated other girls, because he always told me exactly how the dates went, what was going through his mind...it was a totally honest relationship we had. That was more important to me than monogamy, strangely enough. Or I guess we had a kind of mental monogamy. Hmmm.

Anyway, I guess my ideal relationship allows for a great deal of honesty, including for the partners to be real with each other about their attractions to people outside the relationship. If a relationship doesn't have that capacity for honesty...I guess I don't have as much interest in seeing it preserved. It almost seems like, if it falls apart because of a cheating situation, then that means it wasn't really worth having to begin with. Maybe (?)

PixieJane, interesting points that go further into the psychology of this cheater-hating we see. Thanks

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aquaguy91
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From: tennessee
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posted March 19, 2013 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would also like to say that I think total fidelity is very possible if you get married to the right person for the right reasons. Marriages based off of convenience,financial security,or not wanting to be alone will all end in disaster. Its like the situation my friend is in right now. The girl he is seeing married her husband knowing it was doomed from the start,atleast that's what she is saying.I dont understand why people do stuff like that. But I can say with certainty that i have been with one girl who I was really in love with and I never thought about other girls the whole time we were together, they just didnt exist lol. I think it all just depends on how much you love someone.I have another friend who is married and has a girl( who he is very attracted to) who is obsessed with him and makes advances on him even though she knows he is married.She even invited him to her apartment where she stripped naked and tried to jump on him, he ended up leaving. He told me it was very hard to turn her down but he did it because he loves his wife and isnt going to do anything to ruin it.

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Faith
Knowflake

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posted March 19, 2013 10:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You know what's pretty common is for couples who fall in love in high school to break up and go their separate ways after that, due to circumstances at the time (being away at college, immaturity, etc) only to realize many years down the line that they never got over their first love.

And the position you're in now, aquaguy, with respect to your ex, looks like that pivotal phase of life many of us went through where we were trying very hard to see how much we should put on the line to try and reclaim or salvage that young love that meant so much.

I think most people, like you, are unwilling to try again, thinking those lingering affections will just die off eventually.

But for a lot of people they don't die off. Amazingly enough~ that's what I've seen in my life. And your ex may go off and marry some other dude, have kids with him, and THEN realize she's made a mistake, and you might do the same, now both of you are stuck in the wrong marriage.

Sounds unlikely, but I'll be darned if I haven't seen it several times, where families are wrecked because high school sweethearts reunited after decades apart.

My sister-in-law's brother was an eligible bachelor in his late thirties...rich, handsome guy who never had trouble finding girlfriends...but he never settled down. One day he gets a call from his high school girlfriend. She said she's married with three kids but she wants him back. Much to the complete shock of most people who knew him, he said, "OKAY! C'mon let's do it!"

And now they are married with two additional children. They totally love each other, that's the good thing. But the woman's children from her first marriage were really screwed up by the divorce.

If only people figured these things out earlier in life.

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aquaguy91
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From: tennessee
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posted March 20, 2013 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquaguy91     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^its not me,its my friend. and i'm never getting married, so i wont have to worry about that lol.

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T
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posted March 20, 2013 01:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm just glad I'm not easily attracted to people....especially when in a relationship.

& when in a relationship, there's not much that could make me cheat on the person.

at that point- in a relationship, no one else is really attractive.

Sure, there are attractive people in the world, but I don't want anything to do with them...

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Padre35
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posted March 20, 2013 02:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

A couple of reasons, particularly with those in the public eye:

-people adore setting them up on pedestals only to see them knocked off with some daliance

-suspect the majority of married couples are monogamous which creates a natural mkt for the media product

-also think there is a sort of "forgiveness industry" wherein the "cheater" is allowed to confess their tresspass and receive absolution by the public

Eh, that said, still think a partner in a couple should not cheat as for a small bit of pleasure trust is traded in and that is always a poor deal for all involved

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Faith
Knowflake

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posted March 20, 2013 08:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by aquaguy91:
^its not me,its my friend. and i'm never getting married, so i wont have to worry about that lol.

Oh I wasn't talking about your friend, I was talking about life in general, and how you might still miss your ex, years from now.

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may...carpe diem...that kind of thing.

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