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Author Topic:   Bringing children into the world
Dancing Maenad
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posted December 06, 2015 01:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dancing Maenad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi all!

I have my NN in the 5th house and always wanted to be a Mom (Moon is conjunct the SN, in Sag). Hasn't happened to me yet and whenever I think about that it always makes me sad. I want to have that special bond with that little creature, to teach him or her about the world, to protect them from all harm. All my attempts at having a family have failed miserably, since I can't maintain a happy relationship for long. Well, nevermind that, I have even considered adopting. I told myself I could live without a man, but not without a child. My closest family and friends have been strongly against my idea to adopt. I guess all these failures were in the end lessons, because I later realized I was not ready for such a responsibility. I don't know if I will ever be. This morning I asked myself something I never thought I would think, ever..

is it selfish to want to have children?

What do you think?

I am starting to think it is. I know many people think the love between a parent and a child is unconditional, I do not believe so, as a matter of fact it is very much conditioned. The child depends on the adult and the adult is so ego-driven to have a mini-me that he/she will withhold love or attention whenever the child behaves differently than wanted. Is that not a condition? Well, it's how I was raised. And perhaps because of that I really shouldn't be a mom. Not everyone is fitted to be a parent. I always thought that if I were, I'd give that child the best possible education about the world. Is that really true? I would probably pay most attention to the mistakes my parents did with me, and ignore other things that would be important for my child. He or she would still reproach me something when they're old enough to not see me as an absolute authority figure. I also think life on earth is hard.. why would I subject another being to it? Yeah, I know, the lessons. Souls want to learn. But from a human consciousness perspective, I still think it's a selfish thing to want...

These are just Sunday morning musings and very personal. I am not really talking about someone else here, just me. Whatever reasons you had or have for having kids, it's not for me to judge. I can only judge myself and this is what it is about. Don't get offended and don't make this thread a fighting pit, I'd be very p$ssed if you do (not to mention you'd prove me right).

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hannaramaa
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posted December 06, 2015 03:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hannaramaa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think it's selfish to want to have children, or at least I don't blame people for wanting to have them (when I personally don't.) It seems more selfish to keep a child knowing you aren't equipped for one financially or lifestyle wise than to want one, alone.

Every now and then I feel a small tinge of wanting a baby but it's never been a dream of mine. I think part of that is a fear of inflicting the same negative patterns onto a blank canvas. The other part is literally not being able to return it where I bought it :laugh: I would have to keep it. Forever. EEEEE! No thanks! Not right now anyway.

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PixieJane
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posted December 06, 2015 03:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would depend--and that's regardless to whether you want children, or whether you DON'T want children.

Btw, when Nebraska passed their own "safe haven" law, they didn't put an age in (just assuming it would be infants), and even teenagers were being dumped off (in some cases, people drove in from other states to drop the kids off to forget about them! ):
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/08/nebraska.safe.haven/

Of course they moved quickly to amend that law, and it was selfish (at best, and comes off as downright cruel to me--though some said they did so out of the child's best interest as they were unequipped to continue to care for them, in which case may be more selfless than selfish, however sad) of the parents to have done so...but could those children dropped off really have been in a good home if the parents were willing to do that? And should the kids dropped off (especially those old enough to know and remember it) be given back to their parents? Doesn't strike me as a good idea.

Whatever the case, there's usually an element of self-interest involved, which can be seen as selfish, but that doesn't make one a bad person. Really, a person who doesn't want children should not have them, and though that's selfish, it's also in the best interest of any such children. Meanwhile, those who do want children AND can provide a good home are acting in at least a somewhat selfless way by following their self-interest, though others can have children for reasons that are detrimental to the children (image, cash cows, trying to force a man to stay with her, believing it will "fix her life" or provide her with "unconditional love" rather than the other way around, even just for the attention of being pregnant!). This is more about motivation (what they're after) and how they go about it (and how they handle stress and conflict) rather than having children or not having children.

Of course for those worried about overpopulation and even "inflicting existence on an innocent" don't have to worry about that in the case of adoption. And that strikes me as more selfless than insisting on one's own flesh and blood (not that I think those who would only be able to love their own flesh & blood should be shamed into adopting as that would be doing a disservice to the adopted--and it's depressing to me to consider all the horror stories I've come across regarding adoption, though there are beautiful stories as well).

And no one is perfectly selfless. And even when people act in selfless ways, they can still act foolishly or badly that might even be worse than selfish. Just my before bed musings.

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12muddy
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posted December 06, 2015 04:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 12muddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
is it selfish to want to have children?

It's hard to give an answer. Personally I think it depends on the reasons behind having children and one's perspectives.

Due to financial reasons, where I come from, it's common for people to think of their children as people who will provide for them when they get old. This makes me cringe a little, even though I understand.

I see that as selfish. But my reasons for having kids aren't self-less either.

I see this world as quite amazing. I hope my children get a chance to experience life. Plus, there's something tender about thinking of my children as the results of love, raising them, watching them grow and go through life.

I'm grateful for being born, so I hope they would be. I'm all about chances, so giving chances is the best thing I can offer. They didn't give me their "consent" to be born, hell they may grow up hating it or they may think "Well sht on the chances we didn't ask for". But I hope my good intentions will be enough.

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Violets
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posted December 06, 2015 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Violets     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...edit...

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Ami Anne
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posted December 06, 2015 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think you can say it is selfish or nor selfish. That is too black and white. It is a complex subject.

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Sibyl
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posted December 06, 2015 07:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sibyl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's selfish in the same way that living, breathing and eating is I think. We simply couldn't stop ourselves though, so we better make the best of it.

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Violets
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posted December 06, 2015 07:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Violets     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sibyl:
It's selfish in the same way that living, breathing and eating is I think. We simply couldn't stop ourselves though, so we better make the best of it.

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Dancing Maenad
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posted December 07, 2015 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dancing Maenad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for the replies! You all make valid points.

Today I broke up with my boyfriend, who is a therapist. The break-up was of mutual accord, despite a lot of love we have for each other, we had to admit we're not really that compatible. Towards the end of the visit he tells me maybe I should reconsider my desire to have a child. He mostly referred to my hectic lifestyle as a surgeon. I nodded and said "I already am". I know he didn't say that from spite, there is no bad blood between us, I also know he is right about that at this point. I guess the hardest thing to break is the notion that "I have to" have a child, that if you don't marry or have a family you're some sort of failure. At this point I am not entirely sure if I want to have a family because this is my heart's desire or because I was programmed to think I should. Heck, I might not even be the marrying kind, I have 4 Sag planets for goodness' sake. Until I figure it out, obviously I shouldn't go ahead and do it. So, in a way, life did me a huge favor by not getting it until now. How about that.. you never think in those terms.

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Aunt Anomalia
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posted December 08, 2015 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sorry about your breakup.

You want this thread to be focused on biological children, right?

quote:
Full Definition of SELFISH (merriam-webster.com)
1
: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2
: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>
3
: being an actively replicating repetitive sequence of nucleic acid that serves no known function <selfish DNA>; also: being genetic material solely concerned with its own replication <selfish genes>

I think deciding to have biological children is inherently selfish. It contributes to the overpopulation issue and ignores the fact there are millions of children in need of a new home on this planet. Scenarios like attempting to trap someone by getting pregnant, choosing to reproduce despite knowing about the risk of passing a severe disease or despite being unable to provide for a child - I'd call this f... selfish. It's abusing the rights of the other DNA provider and lacking consideration for the future offspring. Other than that this kid business is self-serving at best. Children are assigned roles before they're even born, they're supposed to fill a hole, they're a means to an end. They're just another "must have" accessory. Even if the aspiring parent wants only "someone to nurture and teach about the world" it's still all about them. They want to create a human because they believe it will make them happier. No one came knocking at their door and begged to be popped out, right? Good parenting does require selflessness but particiapting in it is nothing but just another quest for gratification. You want to walk this path? Okay, but don't think it makes you any better than those who pick a different one.

The decision not to reproduce isn't selfish. The person MAY be selfish in general but this choice can't be selfish. Selfishness requires the involvement of another party and a child who doesn't and will never exist doesn't qualify. If your parents moan that they want grandchildren and it hurts not to have them, not catering to their wish isn't selfishness, it's not letting other people coerce you into a life changing decision which is very likely to end in misery. Your significant other is dying to have a child but you're not interested? "You're selfish for deying him/her a child!", some would say. Nope. It's a compability isssue that can be avoided but **** happens. If it's something they can't be happy without, they're free to leave and pursue this desire or you can leave them if they keep deluding themselves that you'll change your mind or/and pressuring you. Of course, I'm aware how painful it would be to separate if the connection is strong and it's the only obstacle on the way to a lasting relationship. But the right decision sometimes is the most difficult one.

In fact, most childfree folks have some consideration for their hypothetical children and other people. Some are seriously worried about overpopulation, some don't want to pass on diseases, some are convinced they wouldn't be good parents and the best thing they can do for their children is not to have them, some want to be fully dedicated to their partners, etc. Others believe this world is too cruel to throw another being into it when they didn't even ask for it. Some people hold all the opinions above. They thought hard about something that most people see as default. They feel the weight of this choice. They know what a huge responsibility and effort it is to create and raise a child. They know in how many ways it could go wrong. They know that if something did go wrong, at least 3 people would be affected. That once you become a parent there's no way back. They're self-aware, considerate, rightfully careful and courageous enough to place themselves in a minority. I say: bravo!


Those who decide to have kids do it because they believe that's what is best for them. The kids won't be necessarily grateful for having such parents though and they themselves may come to regret their decision.

Those who decide not to have kids do it because they believe that's what is best for them. They hurt no one but those who don't share their choice and for some reason feel entitled to control their lives.

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Anomaling around since 1911.

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Aunt Anomalia
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posted December 22, 2015 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aunt Anomalia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No one feels like sparring? Was I that on point or what?

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Anomaling around since 1911.

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Seimei
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posted December 22, 2015 10:36 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello,
I am sad that you have such a wholesome desire unfulfilled. It may happen yet and you know that I am sure,. What I am thinking is that then and only then will you understand the wait, the why.
Selfish for a woman to want to become a mother? I suppose my first thought is that if you want it for the wrong reason then yes it is selfish. But that is just over analyzing the question. It is an instinct for you as a woman, and how the hell can an
instinct be selfish. Only dishonest needs are selfish.

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LeekingChee

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Ayelet
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posted December 23, 2015 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ayelet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think having a child might be selfish or unselfish or both. Nature has created us in a way that we enjoy making love, and children come as a result. This is the mechanism. Of course, not everyone who is capable of having sex is also capable of raising a child. Also, the parent cannot really protect the offspring from suffering in the world. If the person is sincere in his/her effort not to be selfish in that way, s/he might as well abstain from sex! One may ask: Is sex a selfish gratification? Why isn't that question asked? Because very few people would give up sex. And I think a right answer would be: If the person having sex is mature enough to raise a child, to take upon himself/herself such a responsibility, which is the work of a lifetime, then I'd say: no, that person is not selfish.

Parenthood may be an ungrateful work, even if sometimes rightly so. We all may make mistakes when upbringing a child. But the relationship may be a lesson through which both parent and offspring grow. One may say: life is harsh. Why casting another innocent soul into it? I guess such a person will diminish his/her own participation in worldly matters. I think that person might be right in what s/he says. There is not one right answer. Everyone may decide according to his/her heart. I am not a parent, and I feel I am missing something. I feel that when a mother gives her all to her child it makes for personal development and transformation. According to what I've read and also believe, souls who come to this world choose to do so because they need the lessons of this world. These souls will come anyway, either through that person or another. So one may choose whether s/he wants to be the vessel and keeper or not.
I am also totally for adopting children.

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StubbornVirgo
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posted December 27, 2015 03:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for StubbornVirgo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want to adopt kids, when the time comes (when I'm financially stable, etc).

I have so many health issues, I'm pretty sure I'm sterile by now. I don't care, though. I just want to be a good mom, one day.

If that day never comes, I know for sure I'm a damn good mom to my cats and dogs.

I don't hold anything against those who want to have kids of their own, though. I can understand that kind of yearning. I just want something different from them. I want to leave this world a little better than it was before, and adopting is part of that process for me.

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Dancing Maenad
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posted January 10, 2016 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dancing Maenad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
No one feels like sparring? Was I that on point or what?


I don't feel ready to get back to this subject. But I am grateful for your opinions.

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Randall
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posted January 11, 2016 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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firemoon
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posted January 14, 2016 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for firemoon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dancing Maenad:
Towards the end of the visit he tells me maybe I should reconsider my desire to have a child. He mostly referred to my hectic lifestyle as a surgeon. I nodded and said "I already am". I know he didn't say that from spite, there is no bad blood between us, I also know he is right about that at this point.

Hi DM

I'm back on LL after a long hiatus and have missed you dearly! Also though this topic caught my eye and I'm really sorry he said this to you.. but if I were you I honestly would hesitate to take this statement as truth. Having a child is a deeply transformative experience (yes on a personal level so in that way it could be called selfish). But really lifestyles can change.. No one is truly "ready" for a child and no one knows exactly what they'll do when it happens

Also just speaking from experience, this may or may not be encouraging to you but my step-mom has NN in 5th widely opposite neptune, she's a fiercely independent lawyer who actually didn't intend on having children, but still ended up with them in a way (by marrying my dad at a later age). So it might not be what you're initially expecting but I really think fate has a way of working itself out, don't get too discouraged while things are still unclear.

Also please don't let your family/friend's opinions dictate your decisions. There really is no way to "fail" on this front.. Whatever is meant to be will be. Sending you lots of love and positive thoughts/wishes

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Belba
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posted January 14, 2016 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Belba     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
I'm sorry about your breakup.

You want this thread to be focused on biological children, right?

I think deciding to have biological children is inherently selfish. It contributes to the overpopulation issue and ignores the fact there are millions of children in need of a new home on this planet. Scenarios like attempting to trap someone by getting pregnant, choosing to reproduce despite knowing about the risk of passing a severe disease or despite being unable to provide for a child - I'd call this f... selfish. It's abusing the rights of the other DNA provider and lacking consideration for the future offspring. Other than that this kid business is self-serving at best. Children are assigned roles before they're even born, they're supposed to fill a hole, they're a means to an end. They're just another "must have" accessory. Even if the aspiring parent wants only "someone to nurture and teach about the world" it's still all about them. They want to create a human because they believe it will make them happier. No one came knocking at their door and begged to be popped out, right? Good parenting does require selflessness but particiapting in it is nothing but just another quest for gratification. You want to walk this path? Okay, but don't think it makes you any better than those who pick a different one.

The decision not to reproduce isn't selfish. The person MAY be selfish in general but this choice can't be selfish. Selfishness requires the involvement of another party and a child who doesn't and will never exist doesn't qualify. If your parents moan that they want grandchildren and it hurts not to have them, not catering to their wish isn't selfishness, it's not letting other people coerce you into a life changing decision which is very likely to end in misery. Your significant other is dying to have a child but you're not interested? "You're selfish for deying him/her a child!", some would say. Nope. It's a compability isssue that can be avoided but **** happens. If it's something they can't be happy without, they're free to leave and pursue this desire or you can leave them if they keep deluding themselves that you'll change your mind or/and pressuring you. Of course, I'm aware how painful it would be to separate if the connection is strong and it's the only obstacle on the way to a lasting relationship. But the right decision sometimes is the most difficult one.

In fact, most childfree folks have some consideration for their hypothetical children and other people. Some are seriously worried about overpopulation, some don't want to pass on diseases, some are convinced they wouldn't be good parents and the best thing they can do for their children is not to have them, some want to be fully dedicated to their partners, etc. Others believe this world is too cruel to throw another being into it when they didn't even ask for it. Some people hold all the opinions above. They thought hard about something that most people see as default. They feel the weight of this choice. They know what a huge responsibility and effort it is to create and raise a child. They know in how many ways it could go wrong. They know that if something did go wrong, at least 3 people would be affected. That once you become a parent there's no way back. They're self-aware, considerate, rightfully careful and courageous enough to place themselves in a minority. I say: bravo!


Those who decide to have kids do it because they believe that's what is best for them. The kids won't be necessarily grateful for having such parents though and they themselves may come to regret their decision.

Those who decide not to have kids do it because they believe that's what is best for them. They hurt no one but those who don't share their choice and for some reason feel entitled to control their lives.


My thoughts exactly! A highly unpopular "opinion", while it's really the most realistic view on the subject. I admire women who decide to not have kids with strong reasons and convictions, despite being judged by society. I am so sick of the myths about motherhood and fatherhood (though let's be honest the burden is bigger on the women). While it's obviously in some ways very controversial and is in this world just yet impossible to execute, I'd limit, for some totally prohibit births, like, everyone should go through similar to adoption tests etc. I think that if you look at your average adoptive parent they're way better than say your average biological parent, I'd bet my head on it.

Btw AA, I agree with you on soooo many topics, I must dig up your chart

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starxd
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posted February 11, 2016 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for starxd     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree that it takes a strong, thoughtful person to consider all the ramifications of bringing life into the world. In considering resources and the ease/unease/happiness/unhappiness that one's circumstances can mean to another life. I believe it's a beautiful thing to consider little lives that are already here, desperate for love and a home. And yet the pain of that primal desire being checked can be unreal.

Selfish or not, it's a natural instinct. Not giving into it to the detriment of others is the test. It still hurts. And that's okay. I feel it too. It's not selfish or silly to admit that it hurts. You wanted to give love and you're just mourning the inability to give a certain kind of love. That's okay.

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Debby4
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posted February 24, 2016 11:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Debby4     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with whomever said it was too much of a complex subject to be just be selfish or non-selfish. It's such a personal and at the same time non-personal decision. It effects everyone, more than most people think about, but then again it affects no one. :l

I'd give it some deep thought and meditation before deciding.

I am always tittering on whether I want little ones or not. Sometimes I'm like "HELL YES!" other times I'm like "Uh, maybe next lifetime." I'll figure it out when I'm older. Also like someone else said, "**** happens." and "All that is meant to be...will be."

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Randall
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posted March 08, 2016 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some people have children for selfish reasons. Some do for unselfish reasons.

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diamondbaby
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posted May 04, 2016 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for diamondbaby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's not selfish, it's natural.

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YoursTrulyAlways
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posted May 04, 2016 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoursTrulyAlways     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can assure you it's expensive. Brutally expensive. lol

I absolutely love being a parent. It's been my life dream, and a dream fulfilled several times over.

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Lucia23
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posted June 09, 2016 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucia23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"He mostly referred to my hectic lifestyle as a surgeon. I nodded and said "I already am". I know he didn't say that from spite, there is no bad blood between us,"

Dancing Maenad, now that I am a mother, my ideas of what would make someone a good mother have changed. When I read this thread and see that you have a hectic lifestyle as a surgeon and would be ok without a romantic partner, but want to raise a little being, I think, This woman would make an excellent mother!

"Surgeon" sounds like you have the financial resources to provide a stable and secure life for your child, and to afford the daycare you would need to have a great career and enough downtime. Not necessarily needing a partner sounds like you are an independent woman who would set an good example for a child.

I think that having a child changes everything, so much that your reasons for having one (selfish, unselfish, a mix of both) don't matter anymore once he/she is born (or adopted by you)....what matters is how you handle this beautiful, brutal, important gift once the child is with you. Preparing by making sure you are emotionally and financially stable is more important for your child than some kind of "unselfish" motivation for having him/her.

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Dancing Maenad
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posted June 14, 2016 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dancing Maenad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you!

The subject has not removed itself from my mind, despite me not contributing much to this topic in here. I still think I am not ready, for the most part, but I believe I am getting there, and the thing that makes most sense to me, and feels strongest, is to adopt. It's a big decision and I won't take it lightly. I can't imagine being a single parent would be easy, but to an adoptive child, even more so. Yet I feel very strongly about it. I don't think that would be selfish, but that doesn't really concern me because I wouldn't be bringing them into the world. I don't know when and how it will happen, but I think I will know.

Thank you again for the valuable points and advice you have shared! I hope one day I will update this thread with some happy news.

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