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Author Topic:   Personal asteroids?
Kamilla
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posted August 28, 2006 03:34 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was playing with my BF chart, looking at the transits, etc., and just for the kick of it included asteroid Kamil (the closest version of my name, which was brought to my attention courtesy of our lovely Zala

To my great surprise I found out that it is very prominently positioned in his natal chart. Singletone in 9th House (talking about attraction to foreigners) in direct opposition to Venus, square Mars and forming a Grand Trine with Moon and Vertex.

It was in conjunction with his Mercury (and also Vesta even that I have no idea what that means if anything)when we met for the first time. Our paths crossed again a year later, with Kamil conjunct his Vertex. And we finally went out for the first time when "my" asteroid was square his Vertex, sextile Uranus and trine Pluto.

Now he has Kamil's return coming up...lol...but not after it stays stationary for the next month and then goes retro until the end of December

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on that.

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Node
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posted August 30, 2006 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Node     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personal asteroids hold more significance than most think. while it is true that the major planets [or whatever the astronomy coolition is calling things with a 10% vote of members]hold much more weight. My personal studies conclude that they are always THERE right where you are suprised to see them. They always seem to show dynamics in relationships.

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23
Knowflake

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From: The Strand
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posted August 30, 2006 12:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can you please tell me a bit more about the asteroid? I can't seem to find much on the web about it.

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23
Knowflake

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posted August 30, 2006 12:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If its Kamel, it sits 2 degrees away from my MC in the 9th. Still can't find info on it

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Peri
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posted August 30, 2006 01:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kamilla,

I also noticed this and agree that personal asteroids are very important both in your own chart and in the charts of people close to you.

quote:
Is Your Name in the Stars?
Chart delineations have included the four major asteroids, Juno, Vesta, Ceres, and Pallas Athena for some time. These four large asteroids orbit in a belt between Mars and Jupiter and are referred to as the asteroid goddesses and they represent the feminine roles in our charts of both men and women. The sign and house placement and the aspects to the other factors in the chart give us all a deeper understanding of our feminine side.

The use of the minor name asteroids are a fairly recent addition to chart interpretation and are receiving a great deal of attention with some astrologers since they provide very precise meanings and add depth to chart interpretations. I personally have been totally “hooked” on them. I have a program with 11,000 name asteroids on it that can be calculated for any date to use in individual charts or transits to the chart in predictive work. They are uncanny. When I discovered that the names of all three of my children are on my chart’s ascendant, along with the asteroid “child”, they had my total attention. Here are a few ways that I can add details to your chart by using these incredible orbiting rocks.

Names - The placement of your name and the names of your loved ones will tell you how you identify yourself and how your loved ones impact your life.

Mythical Names - They tell a psychological story. The asteroids that connect to your chart will describe your own personal mythology.

Names of places - It is uncanny to see how the names of places by placement in our charts will describe our experiences there. This is very useful as an additional re-location technique.

Names of Love - There are several asteroids named for different types of love - passionate love, platonic love, love with friendship, mutual love and unrequited love. Not only do they tell you about your own slant on the subject but they are dynamite in doing relationship comparisons between two charts.

Asteroids of love -
Eros - passion, sexual attraction and romantic love
Amor - unconditional love in both romance and platonic relationships
Anteros- mutual love
Anacreon - love and friendship
Medea - extreme love, love/hate relationships
Sappho and Ophelia - unrequited love, disappoints in love

Names of occupations - You will be surprised at how many asteroid names describe occupations. Having spent a lifetime involved in a myriad of vocations in addition to my Astrology, I made a list of them and to my amazement everyone of them fell on planets in my chart that were about career, work and money! All of the astrology names were connected to the career area and Astro Wizard and Stargazer fall on my moon in my career house. This is interesting in hind sight but the real value is in locating those that are pertinent to your chart when you are looking for a new career or checking them out for your college age child when they are uncertain about a path to take.



http://www.reallifeastrology.com/real_life_astrology_asteroid_astrology.htm

p.s. My friend has asteroid Beer conj her Sun very true!

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23
Knowflake

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From: The Strand
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posted August 30, 2006 02:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 23     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just did the test and my name falls in partner's 5th and his in my 11th

My hometown falls in the 12th in pisces - probably the bad memories of it maybe

Dostoevsky - falls a degree off my moon. He is one of my favourite authors

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Peri
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posted August 30, 2006 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I was born my name asteroid was conj my mom's VH cusp

I checked 3 charts and found out that in all cases when children were born, progressed asteroid Child (1 degree = 1 year progression) made a 30/120/60 degree aspect to either VH cusp or VH ruler!

Isnt it amazing the way astrology works!

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Kamilla
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posted September 07, 2006 01:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Peri

You can add one more to your statistics I have Child in trine to VH cusp on the day my daughter was born

Carrying on with asteroids. My BF last name is in exact conjunction with my Saturn in 7th, first name - conjunct my Moon in 4th. Saturn trines Moon. In his chart my first name conjuncts his last name.

And here is the part that really freaked me out. My ex-husband's first AND last names are in exact conjunction with my Saturn in 7th and my first name trines his last name in his chart. Am I getting some sort of karmic lesson here?

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Peri
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posted September 07, 2006 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kamilla, I am happy that you've bumped this thread! You observations are very interesting but predictable at the same time, Astrology is just an amazing thing!

Astreroids do shed lots of light onto things you cannot see in your chart when looking just at the planets.

For instance, my Moon that is conjunct Neptune with only supportive aspects to it, seems perfect from the astrological point of view but does not feel so from my personal experience. And you know what I found? It is conjunct asteroid Medusa and in opposition to asteroid Grieve, both aspects exact;

My Sun that seems to be the greater malefic according to its affetic status is conjunct asteroid Angel (5 degree orb here but I think it still counts). And I wondered many times why I am still here....

This all makes perfect sense to me;

I have asteroids Merlin, Don Quixote, Caesar (+ fixed star Sirius) conjunct my DSC, I have never been married but I am starting to think this is probably because I've been looking for much more than just a Superman Very interesting!

A friend of mine is a very talented and very well paid for his age artist and he has asteroid Talent conjunct MC. His X house is empty, nothing special with XH ruler and it always seemed weird to me but not anymore!

Oh and one more thing check asteroid number 3108, it is exactly conjunct my Saturn so now I understand where my restraint comes from which cannot be explained by Venus conj Mars in Aries!

Asteroid Felicia is in exact square to my Sun and 4-degree-orb-conj Saturn; it is clear now why my Taurean Sun that is supposed to enjoy all possible pleasures of life finds it quite challenging and unfamiliar.

etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ahhh I should probably change my nick for AsteroidJunky now

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Kamilla
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posted September 13, 2006 08:41 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Peri

I did check 3108. It conjuncts Amor, opposits Juno and squares Vertex Oh, and it's in 9th House. No wonder it took me so far from home.

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Salisa
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posted September 13, 2006 10:24 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you taken a look at the astroid (107) Camilla. Does it have similar effects as the other one (14124) Kamil?

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Kamilla
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posted September 14, 2006 12:02 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have, In fact, it's in exact conjunction with my Venus. But I feel much closer to K. I guess, may be because Camilla is the most common way of mispelling my name so to me it automatically rings the bell "wrong".

Thank you for mentioning it though

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted September 14, 2006 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I really think that it's all synchronicity. I and some astrologers found that even minor asteroids can be significantly placed in people's chart. For example, there is an asteroid called Cynthia. It's conjunct my Imum Coeli within 1 degree. Cynthia is my mother's name. Scotti and Ariadne are conjunct my Sun less than half a degree. I read that Ariadne had to do with abandonment issues. She was abandoned by Theseus. Well..my father abandoned me. I never knew him. His last name was Scott. The asteroids of the names of my father and stepfather conjunct in my 4th house less than 10 minutes of arc. My mother didn't know my stepfather until after I was born. The asteroid,Lancelot is conjunct my Moon in Pisces with 3 minutes of arc. Camelot is conjunct my Mercury within 1 degree. Galahad is square my Virgo Ascendant with 10 minutes of arc. I have Guinevere in Libra exactly semisextile my ascendant. I grew reading about Arthurian Legends.
I have used asteroids since 1999. My mother and I have both have Gunnie in hard aspect to the Moon less than half a degree orb,and we were victims of gun violence. My mom was shot and I was with her at the time. Even ethnic asteroids work. My mother have asteroids in related to blacks in aspect to 5th house ruler Venus square Neptune in 5th, and she did have a child that is part black(me) and had black romantic partners even though she's white. Asteroids are pretty cool stuff. They can really finetune a chart. They work not only in natal charts but all other charts too...Heck...I am even blown away by how they work in solar returns and lunar returns. I believe that everything is connected any way,and so I believe that all the heavenly bodies have an influence. After all, Astrology is about the sky any way. The sky is pretty much infinite. Space - the final frontier. hehehehehe Zane Stein is into asteroids too and not just centaurs and kuiper belt objects. I respect,admire,and love openminded,broadminded astrologers like Zane Stein definitely is. It was my reading his stuff about the centaurs and kuiper belt objects that got me interested in using those objects. That was in 2001. It was interesting that I kept finding the large kuiper belt objects in close aspect to my personal points(Moon square Varuna with 10 minutes of arc,Sun conjunct Ixion wtih 4 minutes of arc) I wish Zane Stein would write a lot of books about these objects. I also admire the insights of Philip Sedgwick who is so well insightful about galactic objects. I like Mark Andrew Holmes work with minor bodies too. I find it interesting how he uses the minor aspects which I feel aren't all that minor but just require smaller orbs. The 7th,11th harmonic are prominent in my chart.


here are some sites about asteroids.

I have Martha Lang-Wescott's asteroid books

www.asteroids.com/ www.astrosoftware.com/Asteroi...ures.htm www.mountainastrologer.com/revi....html www.treehousemountain.com/ www.geocities.com/mahtezcat...eroid.html www.zanestein.com/chiron.htm

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OzMeg222
Newflake

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From: victoria, australia
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posted September 15, 2006 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for OzMeg222     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In his natal chart, my asteroid is conjunct his mercury in the 7th house.

Maybe I'M what he's looking for in a partner. LOL I wish.

Kinda thought that was cute though.

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Peri
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From: 49N35 34E34
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posted September 18, 2006 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh I've just found the guy I've been hopelessly obsessed with's name asteroid and it is exactly conjunct my Black Moon Lilith on the 5H cusp.....no wonder.... he is my Animus figure!..signs*....my name asteroid conj his IC....on the day when he proposed me his name asteroid was conj my DSC and my transiting name asteroid conj his name asteroid and BLM that must be why I freaked out; my transiting name asteroid was on his MC.
In the solar return chart, when I fell in love with him, his solar name asteroid was exactly on my natal name asteroid, solar NN on his name and my solar name on natal Venus!

P.S. In synastry charts, BML interactions create that inexplicable fatal attraction since BML represents our anima/aminus projection.
http://www.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/anima.html

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Kamilla
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posted September 18, 2006 08:43 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I forgot all about Black Moon Lilith. I have it in exact conjunction with my Moon. I would imagine that adds even more power to subconcsious "animal attractions"...lol. His BML conjuncts his Venus. And guess, what ... in his chart my name is in exact opposition to his BML/Venus and in my chart his name conjuncts my BML/Moon. In synastry his Jupiter,Juno and Chiron conjunct my Moon, BML and his solar name. His BML/ Venus conjuct my Venus/Neptune and opposite my solar name.

Just like Peri said, I am not even surprised any more. Just in total awe of synchronicity.

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astro junkie
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posted September 19, 2006 04:17 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding "Lilith", are you using the True Lilith, which is represented by using "h13" in astro.com?

Compare both placements just in case they might be off significantly.

------------------
... it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness

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Peri
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posted September 19, 2006 06:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I used mean Lilith (the one on additional objects list); They say 'true' lilith is more accurate but 'mean' lilith does work and very accurately!

'True' Lilith happens to be conjunct my Sun and IC I don't know... I've never used true lilith before

quote:
Lilith in relationships
Lilith is no joke in relationships! Most people are not conscious about the forces of the goddess, much less, having integrated them. Thus, a date under the influence of Lilith may grow into a dangerous liaison, into painful, intense, obsessive or strange love affairs. Often it's a matter of male or female self-esteem, of power and powerlessness and of radical break-through. Lilith often uncovers hidden structures of suppression and confronts the partners with their true desires which they haven't lived out. If you look at Lilith under the aspect of being radically honest about your sexuality and your true feelings, its obviously not easy to get along in peace and harmony in a relationship when she is dominant.

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002723.html

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Kamilla
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posted September 19, 2006 07:41 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I used the same as Peri, Lilith from additional objects list. I added h13 "True" Lilith and it conjuncts Black Moon Lilith in both of our charts. So I guess it puts more weight on "dark love" potential. But then, I checked other people charts and noticed that in many of them h13 falls pretty close to BML although not always close enough for cojunction. Is that the way it supposed to be?

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Peri
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posted September 19, 2006 08:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, it is all the same: true lilith is supposed to be the 'corrected' version of mean lilith

quote:
Black Moon Lilith can be calculated as mean or true, similar to the way the Moon's nodes are calculated as mean or true. But in the case of the Black Moon there can be as much as 30 degrees difference between the mean and true so it is possible for them to be in different signs or houses. Deciding which to use is easier if you look at charts of people you know where the mean and true are in different signs and houses. The true is the more accurate placement but an ephemeris for it has only been available for about 10 years so not as much work has been done using it. The ephemeris for the mean has been available for about 100 years and astrologers in Europe have been using it almost that long. That's why you see the mean used more in articles and books.

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WaterNymph
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posted September 21, 2006 09:31 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
omg!!!!! So cute!!!

Alex is conj my Moon
&
Alexandra trine my Moon

Amazing

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted September 21, 2006 02:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
not always conjunct

My true Black Moon Lilith is conjunct Sun in Scorpio with 22 minutes of arc. My mean Black Moon Lilith is conjunct Uranus in Libra in 2nd house with 1 degree.

The Difference Between Mean and True Points

So what is the difference between the Mean Dark Moon Lilith and True one named Druj ? Among some Russian astrologers there is a lot of false judgements and nonsensical conjections nohow connected with Reality, that it can be easy to get confused sometimes. Even you can think that all those astrologers follow a principle "the more absurd the better, the more unscientific the more esoteric". The most common point of view is an opinion that the oscillating Dark or Light Moon makes loops in accordance with some simple mathematical law. Repeatedly the Author saw many versions of tables of the Dark and Light Moon's movement which were calculated "considering loops". Obviously, they don't have and can't have anything common with Reality, these tables are responsible for deplorable mistakes of many astrologers, who believe in those "loops" of the Dark and Light Moons, invented by somebody's unknown. And what is amazing, for some reason nobody trys to describe movement of the True Node of the Moon with the same tables, diagrams or formulae. Perhaps, that is because of everybody's knowledge of the Node's ephemerides, and any profanation about this subject will make reader or listner smiled. Isn't it clear, that both Dark and Light Moons has at least the same order of complexity of their true movement? Then it's necessary to be not a perfect mathematician only, but an astronomer also for creation of the exact mathematical model of the True Node of the Moon. Strange to say this thought dosn't flash into a mind of such authors, who promote their "theories" of the True Dark and White Moons' movement. Obviously, it's easy to speculate upon something unknown to most of readers or listeners without deepening into "excessive" complexities of the exact sciences. In this case it's possible to present not only unverified, but certainly wrong opinions as the doubtless truth. The mischief of it is that nobody can refute these opinions for the time being. But all these theories are going to crash down themselfs in one day.

So, the True Dark Moon (the true apogee of the lunar orbit), indeed, fluctuates relatively to the Mean Dark Moon with the amplitude about 20 degrees and the period about a lunar month. However, this statement is absolutely insufficient for construction of the theory of the True Dark Moon's movement. Such a calculation of it's exact positions has to use the latest achievements of the astronomy. And if, dear readers, anybody will tell you the contrary, don't believe, it's a mark of incompletence in astronomy as well as in both mathematics and physics.

The fact is the distance between the True and Mean Dark Moon is huge sometimes even in astrological measurings, and we have to be especially attentive with the difference in interpretation of these two points. Any mean point can be determined as some abstraction, an ideal image, it reflects our abstract notion about this matter. This point shows how concrete problems are reflected upon our [illusory] perception. This is because of our mind isn't able to follow all "tricks" of the motion of oscillating points, so some average models work in our mind. On the other hand, real (true) points reveal what is going on in reality. We take it as only external events and phenomena of a resonance, what is, generally, wrong. Therefore we have to have our special attention to interpretation of the real points, not ideal models.

By the way, one is luckly who has his mean point in conjunction with true one, his perceptions are most of all close to Reality.

In the case of the Dark Moon the mean point demonstrate our notions about our subconscious problems and complexes, but the true point reveals these problems and complexes themselves. Most of people have these points in the limit of one sign, which means that they have at least an approximate idea about their subconscious complexes. But if you have these points in different signs, it's very hard for you to get the correct ideas - your notions can be disconnected with reality at all.
http://www.astrologer.ru/book/dark_moon/index.html.en

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Glaucus
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posted September 21, 2006 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Here is more information about the black moon lilith. I like the astronomical stuff about it.


I. The True or Osculating Black Moon.

The true or osculating Black Moon is "a new arrival" into the pile of astrological "bodies" or sensitive points. It arrived in the early 90's, when it began to appear in published tables, at the same time than the centaurs. Like the centaurs, it requires research, hard work, and time. However, it is often neglected in place of the "mean" value, either because a lack of understanding of how fictitious the mean Black Moon is, or from the empirical evidence that validates it.

The Mean Apogee or Black Moon is an artifice, like the "fictitious Mean Sun" used by astronomers for the measurement of time. It moves very regularly, describing a perfect circle around the earth/moon barycenter (not the earth). Its movement is actually as round and regular as the hands of a clock and it is very easy to calculate. This roundness of its motion is not a good representative of the nocturnal and magic demoness Lilith; roundness and steady motion belongs to the Sun; it is alien to the world of the Moon.

The Osculating Apogee, on the other hand, represents the shape of the lunar orbit at one specific instant of time. It is not averaged as the mean apogee, and it is already geocentric, unlike the mean apogee. Some people reject it because it doesn't make any sense to them to have it swing as much as 30 degrees from the mean position and have abrupt and irregular changes of velocity and direction, but I think it is precisely this erratic behavior what makes it the best representative of the irrational, instinctive, and primal symbolism of Lilith.

This True Black Moon does not have the decades of astrological and interpretative elaboration that the Mean Black Moon has. It has been available only after 1992. You won't find simplistic formulas to make its interpretation easy. It requires research and willingness to try the new. It needs not receive the conventional meanings given to the round and astronomically featureless Mean Black Moon; but, as far as I am concerned, is the best symbolical representative of the demonical, nocturnal, and primal Lilith.

II. Astronomical Symbolism.

One important distinction is that the apogee/perigee axis is very different from the ascending/descending nodes axis, because at the nodes there is an intersection of 2 planes, like a meeting, or a door from one level to another, or a confluence of 2 worlds (the lunar and the earth realms).

But the apogee or the empty focus of the lunar orbit is a purely lunar realm. It is not in contact with anything. It is only the Moon per se, in isolation from everything else... therefore they are different concepts or orbital symbols. The apogee/empty focus (="kenofocus") is really like a womb, a receptacle, an accumulator, a point of emptiness...

As part of the "emptiness", this empty focus is also the place of dreams, the garden of desires, the pot at the end of the rainbow, the "impossible dream", the "primal mate", the twin-soul, etc... but this place is very, very dangerous... it can devour you like a whirlpool!

NOTE: everything here refers to the osculating lunar apogee, not the mean apogee. If astronomical symbolism must match astrological symbolism, then the mean apogee is very alien to this symbolism.

Astronomically, the Black Moon is an isolated point, a point of neglect, repression, fermentation, and "magical" transformations that belong to a phantasmal, nocturnal, and instinctive/erotic world. It contains all the more instinctual energies (including the atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance, which is dependent on bodily functions) deep within the psyche, of which sexuality is of course paramount, and which manifest themselves in fairy tales and in primitive lunar symbolism: the night, the mystery, the magic, the danger, the secret, the fear, that which is forbidden...

There is a dynamics between the 2 foci, they are seeing each other, like 2 twins, although one is physical and has weight while the other is absent and ghostly. It represents an absence, a ghost, an emptiness, like the emptiness of the womb or an unattainable ideal. Seen dynamically, there will be important differences between men and women... which is part of the dynamics of the 2 foci seen each other and getting polarized, fighting against a ghost and against emptiness, or trying to attain its invisible and ideal part.

One way of seeing its more negative manifestations, thinking on the "neglect" and "emptiness" of the empty focus of the Moon's orbit, is that the Black Moon is a reaction against the "reproductive" and mothering role which "chains" women and leaves them "empty" as individuals. Lilith can be seen as the polar opposite of this kind of woman, which, in turn, is a reaction against all sorts of forces that try to castrate a person.


III. The Psychological Realm of the Great Mother.

Pshychologically, the symbolism of Lilith belongs to the Mother Archetype, especially in its manifestations of the Terrible Mother. Let me make a few short quotes from Jung in "Psychological aspects of the Mother Archetype":

<<Evil symbols are the witch, the dragon (or any devouring and entwining animal, such as a large fish or a serpent), the grave, the sarcophagus, deep water, death, nightmares and bogies (Empusa, Lilith, etc.)...>>

<<On the negative side the mother archetype may connote anything secret, hidden, dark; the abyss, the world of the dead, anything that devours, seduces, and poisons, that is terrifying and inescapable like fate.>>

<<The effects of the mother complex on the son may be seen in the ideology of the Cybele and Attis type: self-castration, madness, and early death.>>

The following quote by another Jungian (Eric Neumann, in "The Origins and History of Consciousness") can almost be read as some modern astrological descriptions of Lilith:

<<Thus the Great Mother is uroboric: terrible and devouring, beneficent and creative; a helper, but also alluring and destructive; a maddening enchantress, yet a bringer of wisdom; bestial and divine, voluptuous harlot and inviolable virgin, immemorially old and eternally young...>>

Jung divided the "mother complex" as it manifests in women in 4 different types (which I always related to the 4 "big four" traditional asteroids). Lilith incarnates several aspects of what Jung calls "the overdeveloped eros", which can manifest like, for example, a tendency toward "the unscrupulous wrecking of marriages". It often is the reaction against the purely instinctive and all-devouring "thrall of nature" mother:

<<The reactive intensification of the daughter's eros is aimed at some man who ought to be rescued from the preponderance of the female-maternal element in his life...>> (id.)

NOTE: for an illustration of the "terrible/castrating mother" astrological role of the Black Moon, read the material on "Tchaikovsky and the Black Moon".

The Black Moon takes hold of our emotions. It is a reactive point, never a point of integration. As such, it can cause strong identifications or very powerful projections of unconscious emotions which may not be recognized as such. My feeling is that the Black Moon always works at this reactive level.

Many of the characteristics of the Black Moon --and of the character of the legendary Lilith-- can be explained with the principle of "reaction formation ", defined as "an internal defense mechanism in which a no longer gratifiable motive (or one gratifiable only under threat of punishment) is replaced by a motive at the other end of the existing continuum" [ref.: "Dictionary of Psychology", Vol. 2, p.907, ed. Eysenck, Arnold and Meili, Fontana/Collins, 1975]

[The authors give the following explanation: <<Primitive manipulation wishes (e.g. daubing) no longer satisfiable as formerly are released through violent desire for contact (which occurs much more often because of its minimal satisfaction value), prodigality through thrift, obscenity through extreme politeness, disappointed love through malevolent pursuit of the beloved. Characteristics of reaction formation are the lack of ordinary, average forms of motive satisfaction and the inability to take advantage of the many possibilities of satisfaction as circumstances change, except by rigid adherence to extreme forms of gratification.>>]


IV. Atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance.

The astronomical counterpart of the earth is the Sun, not the empty focus of the lunar orbit. Integration is always in the direction of the Sun. The astrological Moon is where the unconscious emotions may become conscious, but the Black Moon, isolated and hot/cold, fire and ice, Unicorn-like, is like a place where there is never light, where it is always dreamy, like the dark side of the Moon. For this reason it may be a point where "consciousness" and energy may concentrate, but it is a slumber type of consciousness, an "entrance" into a world where knowledge is acquired by dreaming, not by thinking...

The way I'm using "magic" regarding the Black Moon is in the more traditional sense, related to occultism and "ancient" magicians like the legendary Merlin. This is to me the realm of the Black Moon, which we can see full-blown in legends, myths, and fairy tales. They all talk of things that are very "real" but not physical, or belonging to a time when the Earth itself was not as physical as today, and when people lived more in the astral than in the physical plane. In a nutshell, it is the "astral" or imaginative world, where things do indeed change shape constantly.

I believe that, today, we misinterpret many of the ancient --even medieval-- traditions and legends because we expect them to refer to a world like ours, while the truth --to me-- is that pre-enlightenment people had an atavistic clairvoyance and wisdom, which in occultism is related to the dark Moon and dark Sun forces-- that allowed them to perceive many things that people today do not perceive any more. The Dark or Black Moon, because of its astronomical symbolism, is for me the best tool there is to represent this "occult" level of reality, the world that is at the other side of the mirror, or, if you want it, the "Twilight Zone".

They had access to levels of perception that we don't have today, or only few people have what was common for them: atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance. Becuase of this, we "explain out" what looks as fantasy for us, ignoring that it was real experience for them. For example, succubi and incubi ("evil" Lilithian spirits) do exist today as they did back then, but because we do not normally perceive or "see" them (they can be perceived and seen in action under abnormal circumstances), we *believe* they are just "childish" explanations of their fears or lack of psychological and medical knowledge. There is a fashion today of "angels", which looks quite shallow when we realize how much the dark side of the spirit world is ignored, making it more powerful.

Bats represent this very well, for example, or gargoyles, among many other things The demoness Lilith and her different guises --putting aside the modern feminist approach which pretends to wipe the "demon" part-- is to me a very good mythological figure for this.

Like Hekate, the Black Moon is a "Queen of the Night", and negatively it is demonic (black magic) and vampiresque, while positively it is related to sexual initiation and transformational magic, a symbolic and oniric/artistic/imaginative world of primal wisdom that resists rationalization.


V. Lilith and the demon world.

Often, regarding Lilith, the traditional negative or "demonic" associations are rejected as being the result of the judeo-christian "male superiority" and "ego" ideologies. But this doesn't change to me the fact that there are still many demons inside of both men and women, and that the world of the night with all its mystery and magic still exists, although in areas and in ways different from those of the past.

Neither "castration" nor "sexuality" are limited to genitality. Especially from the mythical Lilith point of view, associated with the Genesis story, where sexuality marks the beginning of consciousness. I still feel that Lilith is strongly related to a woman's man inside, and man's woman inside, and how one deals with that. "Demons" are treated differently today, seen more as social and psychological projections, but they are still at work in man and in woman, and are strongly related to sexuality, like consciousness. We all have our nights, our night-world. I would personally never loose sight of the symbolism of the night regarding the Black Moon. In my book, Lilith is never fully alive and awake. That is the Sun. A Lilithan person can become solar, but Lilith must remain Lilith.

"Demons", "castration", "darkness", psychological "vampirism", "succubi" and "incubi", and all the other "terrible mother" manifestations associated with the demonic "evil" aspect of Lilith are all part of the psyche of men and women, appearing today in different guises, and the "Black"/"Dark" Moon are excellent astrological and astronomical symbols for them. To me, the Black Moon belongs to the world of the dark and the womb, in both its terrible and its more positive transformational magic aspects.

I am not saying that the Black Moon is *only* this. All the modern psychological interpretations of ancient demonical and magical lore, are another face of the same thing, which can be both very "good" and very "evil". By ignoring our shadows we make them more powerful.

Powerlessness and abuse suffered in early life can create very strong reaction formations that make people "hate" their own vulnerability and feelings, and this can manifest outward as feelings against those that show these traits. All this can be very complicated, "twisted", and dark. Sexuality is often the playground of unconscious reactions of this type, and the more negative or demonic traits of the Lilith legend can be (and are often in the literature) explained this way.


VI. The Emancipation of Women

I feel the Black Moon is also related to the emancipation of women from their "womb" destiny, their sexual liberation. But the Black Moon is a reactive point astronomically, a point where a lot of energy can concentrate but which cannot "integrate" or "bring liberation" by itself. It is more like a pot, or a pit... it cannot be "an integrated woman". That is why I think the modern "redemptive" transformations of the Lilith figure are probably better seen in other bodies capable of transcendence (unlike the Black Moon), such as the centaurs

A girl may have a reactive defense mechanism against the mother, and refuse to submit to "nature", especially if she doesn't feel loved by his father. A loving and strong father will make her use her masculinity to fight integratively in a harmonious assertion of her womanhood. Then probably other feminine asteroids take over, those that deal with a woman's creative role in the community (the main belt), or with transcendent excursions into the prohibited or illicit regions of the centaurs (and to a larger extent, of the Damocloids). These are the ones that break the rules and jump fences and tabus.

The Black Moon is not a dynamic point. It is only reactive, an accumulator or attractor. If it becomes too strong, or if the woman identifies with the Lilith archetype too much, then it becomes a point of rejection and negation, like a no-Moon, an anti-Moon. Perhaps it could be seen as the point where a woman's "destiny in chains" consequence of her "womb" or of her enslaved sexuality is trying to engulf her, and the result may be either the acceptance of her own and ancestral past and its creative transcendence by "jumping" into the more dynamic world of the (also dark) asteroids and centaurs, or the surrender to the neurotic identification with an archetype (in this case, Lilith).

The Lilith archetype, then, can be found in several different astronomical bodies or points, each expressing a different aspect of the archetype according to its astronomical and orbital symbolism. I have often expressed my opinion that there are Lilithian overtones in the centaur Chariklo, for example. Recall my keywords for Chariklo:

matriarchate, the Queen of spades, mature passions sadness, widowhood, illicit love caring for the sick, the dying, the weak sober celebration, moral emancipation and freedom .

There are probably many Lilith associations of the Black Moon that belong more properly to the asteroid 1181 Lilith or to centaurs like Chariklo. Astronomically speaking, 1181 is a social asteroid, but the Black Moon is not a social point. I think a separation is useful, and perhaps sexual equality issues are better measured by the asteroid or by the female centaurs, since it has to do with the (changing) values and costumes in a society.

The Damocloids (1999RG33, 1999LD31, etc) for example, not yet named and more assertive (and with better calculated orbits) than the centaurs, look as very good candidates to incarnate the more tabu and prejudice-breaking aspects of Lilith's modern (good and evil) transformations.

The level in which the Black Moon (not necessarily Lilith!) works is very primal and stemming from sexuality and body-energies --which is not the same as genitality-- while the asteroid 1181 Lilith is (or should be from its astronomical characteristics) more concerned with community or more social issues. The Black Moon is more related to the past, to the origins, to the "uroboric mother".


VII. Conclusions.

When I first started to visualize the centaurs, because of their orbits which can be associated with jetsam, chaos, and fragmentation (also, mythologically, with what is "raw" and wild), I felt that the "shadow" aspect of our personality, memory, history, etc., could be related to them. I still feel that way, but as my mind began to settle about what of the alternative "Black Moons" to use, I am beginning to incorporate its symbolism, which, obviously, works at a different level than the centaurs, the level of the Lunar world in the "occult" way, i.e., more a function of the womb-mother-body energies, including atavistic wisdom and dream-like spiritual perception.

With the centaurs, as with the Black Moon, something similar happens when dealing with the idea of "fragmentation" which they --among many other things-- represent. Their action CAN result in a further and higher integration of the individual, but this integration, at least in my opinion, is no longer them, but other planets, especially Jupiter and the Sun. It is the Sun what represents the spiritual individuality. Lilith --the empty focus of the Moon-- could never represent that.

I have always argued for a differentiation or separation of levels when one is interpreting, i.e., an asteroid cannot be interpreted in the same level than the empty focus of the Moon's orbit (the true osculating Black Moon), in the same way than a centaur or trans-neptunian cannot be interpreted like a main-belt asteroid.

Perhaps it is here where the role of the Lilithian asteroids becomes important. They represent higher levels of the Lilith function, from the Hekates and Lilith-likes of the main belt working on the social-community level to the feminine centaurs breaking all the rules and transgressing the established moralities, giving the archetype Lilith the opportunity to be free from the emptiness of the lunar womb, and become really cosmic, a "citizen of the galaxy".


Juan Antonio Revilla
San José, Costa Rica, June 27, 2000
revised June 2003.
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/lilith.html

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Leopricorn
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posted September 21, 2006 02:22 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow this looks interesting. How do you find your personal asteroids?

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Peri
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From: 49N35 34E34
Registered: Apr 2009

posted September 21, 2006 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey Leopricorn

Go to www.astro.com > more free horoscopes > extended chart selection > scroll down the page and you'll find 'list of over 10000 named asteroids' and 'list of hypothetical planets'.

You can also use www.asteroids.com to find asteroids' numbers.
Here is a very interesting example of how to interpret different natal and transiting asteroids in your chart:
http://asteroidastrology.blogspot.com/

Glaucus! my eyes hurt!

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