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Author Topic:   True Lilith vs Mean Lilith
misslani
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Registered: Feb 2013

posted May 12, 2013 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for misslani     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, so I checked out my Lilith's... True's in Libra at 1 degree in 11th house, but the Mean's in Virgo at 21 degree, also in 11th house.

So, what's the difference between these two Liliths'?

And how would you describe these aspects above?

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Randall
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From: Saturn next to Charmainec
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posted May 12, 2013 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Moving to Asteroid Astrology where you will get more responses.

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Gabby
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posted May 15, 2013 12:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gabby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From Darkstar astrology...

Asteroid Lilith

1181 on astro.com. The Maiden (Puberty & Virginity), Colour White.

ORBIT. She is the only solid representation of Lilith found in the main asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Takes 4 years to orbit the Sun. Discovered in 1927. Diameter of 67km.

KEY WORDS. Rebellion, feminist, prostitution, exile, freedom fighter, confrontational, equality, impulsive, innovative, unconventional, asexual, instinctual, hands-on healing.

She is hands on with her energy as represented by the hand like glyph. Earthy and practical, she reflects the part of the creation myth where she protests to God about having the “lay beneath” Adam and not being treated as his equal.

Asteroid Lilith is like URANUS/ERIS. Uranus having been castrated makes him asexual, he is often sited as being the “gay” planet which is suggestive of alternative lifestyles. The fact that he was castrated by Cronus (Saturn) is interesting. Another symbol of patriarchy whipping off power from this eccentric, ball breaker!


Black Moon Lilith

True (Osculating) Lilith. h13 on astro.com & Mean Lilith from their regular drop down menu. The Mother (Creativity & Sexuality), Colour Red.

ORBIT. It has a 9 year orbit and interestingly spends 9 months in each sign. Very apt for the Full Moon phase. This describes beautifully the gestation of Osculating Lilith to Mean Lilith in the corridor. The corridor being the womb.

KEY WORDS. Magic, animal magnetism, kundalini, creative force, tantric sex, seduction, intuition, psychic ability, imagination, poetry, psychic healing, hypnotism, charisma, glamour, shamanism, mushrooms, psychedelic drugs.

This is not a solid object, it is a point of alignment. The Black Moon is the apogee of the Moons orbit, the point that is farthest from the earth. Just as points like the North Node and the Vertex are hugely important, so is the lunar apogee.

Black Moon Lilith orbit just as there is a Lunar mean and true Node, so there is a Mean and True (osculating) Lilith. As I have found True Lilith to have just as strong an influence as Mean Lilith. Together they form according to Lilith expert Kelly Hunter, a Black Moon Corridor. True Lilith has a wildly vacillating orbit and demonstrates the same quality as an anaretic Planet; potent, fermenting, on the verge of changing. Mean Lilith is more like a fermented refined and stable magic.

Black Moon Lilith is like NEPTUNE/ERIS. This part of the Lilith myth corresponds to the forbidden fruit episode. Where Lilith comes back as a serpent. The serpent representing occult knowledge. The apple representing sex or enthogens. Neptune is very much like a psychic sponge. The zone has shamanic qualities, a similar effect to using drugs to break down the barriers to the unconscious. Like deceptive Neptune when drugged, this zone can let in the demons as well as messages from the spirits.

Black Moon Lilith feature.
Dark Moon Lilith

Also known as Waldemath Moon. h58 on astro.com.( Menopause & The Shadow). Colour Black.

ORBIT. It flies through the chart, like a witch on it’s broomstick taking 119 days to travel round the earth spending 10 days in one sign. Sighting of this mysterious 2nd Moon goes back as far as 1618. it is supposed to resemble a sphere shaped dust cloud. In 1918, Astrologer Sepharial claimed to have confirmed the existence of Waldemaths “ghost” moon.

KEY WORDS. Vengence, Sadomasochism, Demons, The Shadow, Rage, Anti-mother, Fairytales, Nightmares, Ghosts, Nymphomania, Gremlins, Psycho, Toxins, Depth psychology, Stalkers, emotional pain, Catharsis, Madness.

The Dark Moon is the hurt, nasty side of Lilith, and very much like Algol the notorious Fixed star. It can be channeled beneficially if used without ego to release negativity through creativity or art therapy. It is the part of the Lilith myth where in exile she turned baby killer out of revenge to god. “Dark Moon relates to highly individualized soul desires that are denied personal satisfaction for higher expression on social/spiritual levels.

Dark Moon Lilith is like PLUTO/ERIS. The shadow and demons are very much part of Pluto’s underworld, generally he is thought to have raped and abducted Persephone (Eris), but in other versions Persephone goes willingly. Dark Moon then can work two ways like the myth, we either face our Demons and release them safely or we bury them. If they are allowed to fester they become enraged, then we risk them breaking out and psychically “raping” us.

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Gabby
Knowflake

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Registered: Sep 2012

posted May 15, 2013 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gabby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mountain Astrologer...
The Three Liliths

Astrologically, there are three Liliths and you need three different ephemerides to find them. She doesn't make it easy. These include the Asteroid Lilith, found orbiting in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter; the controversial Dark Moon Lilith, said to be the Earth's second Moon by those who have claimed to see it over the last four centuries; and Black Moon Lilith, an abstract, geometrical point in space (see diagram *).

Asteroid Lilith

Asteroid #1181 bears Lilith's name and orbits around the Sun approximately every four years. I think of the female-named asteroids as aspects of the Great Goddess, and Lilith is one of the most ancient. The asteroid seems to represent split-off, demonized aspects of the feminine, the result of long-standing cultural projections that perceive feminine roles and attributes as shameful, untrustworthy, and dangerous. Our personal Lilith placement may show where we struggle with social judgments that define how the feminine qualities should be expressed in order to "fit in." These cultural projections define us, but are not us. Here we may not be seen clearly. A prominent Asteroid Lilith in the birth chart may indicate a person who does not fit the cultural stereoty pe, leading to some kind of exile from the community.

One woman with the asteroid on her Ascendant has a dark, gloomy visage and her straggly hair adds an unkempt look. She does not speak much and is uncomfortable in social situations. She lives simply in the country and works best in the outdoors. This woman could not and would not conform to social expectations.

The symbol for Asteroid Lilith is a stylized hand that signals warning, greeting, or blessing.(5) Perhaps it is how we approach her that will determine what this hand gesture means. In the classic book, Asteroid Goddesses, Lilith is described as signifying resentment and inner rage; she sets herself apart, flies into exile. She is fiercely independent. She refuses to submit to the assumed authority of another or to compromise her beliefs. Lilith asks us to deal with confrontation and issues of equality in relationship. Her asteroid ephemeris can also be found in this book.(6)

Dark Moon Lilith

Some say there is a second Moon circling Earth, a mysterious dark moon that is only seen on rare dates when it is opposite the Sun or when its shadowy silhouette crosses in front of the Sun. Although its existence has not been verified, those astronomers who claim to have viewed it say it is one-fourth the size of our familiar Moon and three times as far away.(7) It takes 119 days to orbit Earth, about ten days per sign. This is Dark Moon Lilith. Supposedly sighted as long ago as 1618, this body came to broader attention through the work of astrologer Sepharial in 1918, and more recently through the writings of Delphine Jay, who also published an ephemeris for the Dark Moon Lilith.(8)

Like a dust cloud, Dark Moon Lilith absorbs the light into itself, a very different process from that of our Sun-reflecting Moon. Whereas the reflective Moon represents personal, subjective feelings, the Dark Moon represents a primal, impersonal, creative instinct that seeks identification apart from the physical and emotional realms.

According to Delphine Jay's research, the effect of Dark Moon Lilith is distinctly impersonal. When her expression is self-centered, she can be quite negative; when the emotional content is directed to higher centers, she enhances creative, mental, aesthetic, and even spiritual expression. "Lilith strictly symbolizes the objective thinking approach. Anything else is unsuccessful."(9) The Dark Moon position is where we must grow beyond our habitual patterns of our early Moon conditioning in order to remember the ancient exaltation of our true spiritual parentage.

Black Moon Lilith

Perhaps the most subtle and intriguing of the three Liliths, Black Moon is not a physical body but an abstract, geometrical point, like the Ascendant or the Vertex. Because the Moon's path around the Earth is elliptical, as opposed to circular, it has two foci, or centers, the Earth being one and Black Moon Lilith the other. We can also describe this point as the apogee of the Moon's orbit - the place where it is farthest from Earth.

The center of gravity between the Earth and Moon is inside the Earth. As part of the Earth-Moon system, Black Moon is a point or energetic vortex intimately bound to the center of the Earth. Within this context, Lilith is a twin to the core energy of the Earth, the deep heart of fire that feeds and sustains our bodies and the body of the Earth. The creative vitality of the Sun gives life to the Earth and fuels this central core fire.

As a centerpoint of the Moon's orbit, Black Moon Lilith works in relationship with the Earth-Moon system and with the Sun. As a second center of reference, she gives a sense of rhythm to the Earth, taking the dynamics of relationship beyond the personal Moon-Venus energies into more subtle dimensions that are essential to our lives. For this reason Black Moon Lilith has a strong impact on relationship dynamics. Representing the closest reach of the Moon to the Sun, she is also a reference point in our personal lives that brings us into relationship with the heart of our Sun-fueled experience on Earth, an emotional intelligence informed by the wisdom of earthy instinct. Since our culture has lost - even rejected, as Lilith was rejected - this kind of natural wisdom, it is more difficult to tap into and trust it. Relationships that carry the Lilith energy are initiatory, soul-to-soul meetings that open into a deeper center where personal and impersonal experience merge. Can we trust this energy that is unraveling our edges, tapping into such a deep well? Can we trust ourselves?

The Black Moon point is where we are lured into our more self-centered illusions for the purpose of purging negative desires, thereby leading us to the deeper truth within our hearts, the longings and yearnings of our souls. She insists that we feel through, let go, and surrender to something essential and transparent in us that is primary - the bedrock beneath the shifting sands, the passion of the soul.

In Unremembered Country, Susan Griffin beautifully articulates the essence of this core energy: "As I go into the Earth, she pierces my heart. As I penetrate further, she unveils me. When I have reached her center, I am weeping openly. I have known her all my life, yet she reveals stories to me, and these stories are revelations, and I am transformed. Each time I go to her I am born like this. Her renewal washes over me endlessly, her wounds caress me; I become aware of all that has come between us, of the noise between us, the blindness, of something sleeping between us. Now my body reaches out to her."(10)

Mean or True?

Like the Moon's nodes, Black Moon Lilith has both Mean and True positions, and the difference between them can be significant, even up to 30 degrees. I understand that most Europeans use the Mean Black Moon. Of course Lilith can be Mean, but I think she is also True. In her True position, she moves very quickly - up to 6ˇ per day - and retrogrades often. I will have to do more research before speculating on the meanings of these two positions. Sabian symbols are one way to start. For now, I propose considering a Black Moon corridor, using the section of the zodiac encompassed by the True-Mean section of the chart. For some people Lilith would cover a larger territory, sometimes even expressing through two signs, with transiting planets making a longer passage. Others, with a narrow band of Lilith influence, may have a more focused, intensified experience of her energies.

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