posted July 15, 2016 05:41 AM            

I do not doubt there is a dark side to Nessus, just like there is to Pluto or any other body.
What I doubt is that this the whole story.
I suspect this dark side is actually the rarer of the two sides of Nessus.

-----------------My response:-----------------

I have Nessus in Cancer in the 9th.

If we are continuing to be fatalistic about Nessus, then I guess I am a racist and a charlatan.
You know, two of the things I oppose most and actively fight against in the world... Interesting, indeed.

I saw in the earlier threads on Nessus that he was likened to Pluto, in representing a place in the chart where you can wield great personal power and possession of the object represented by the sign and house.

So following on from this, if Nessus brings GREAT POWER, he also brings GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.

----------------Conclusion---------------

My conclusion is that if there is a lack of responsibility or emotional intelligence, or a fragmented or fragile integrity in the chart, ONLY THEN, MAY we see the darker side of Nessus. Just as we would with any other 'powerful' planet or body, such as Pluto.

We do not say Pluto is an abuser just because he has the power to be one, do we??
In fact, we have many beautiful interpretations of this powerful planet, such as when he trines Venus, or Moon.

----------Except, wasn't he a kidnapper and rapist in the myths?

----------How can we be so understanding of Pluto, but not Nessus?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love it if others could consider this way of looking at Nessus in their natal, and write back.

I think it is time we nail him once and for all, as there are readings being charged for telling people they are abusers or are or will be abused, when there is CLEAR evidence to the contrary.

-------------- Let's reveal the positive strengths of Nessus, and save some vulnerable people from experiencing unnecessary suffering.

posted July 15, 2016 07:26 AM              

I have Nessus in Gemini in 7th house.

I am very conscious and sensitive towards what I view as "mental abuse/ manipulation". I am absolutely ALLERGIC against people who try to tell me what I am thinking and thereby implying I donīt know my own thoughts (But I also have BML in Aquarius at the cusp of the 3rd house).

My Dejanira incidentally is on 00 Aries still in my 3rd house, so yeah, there is a real vulnerability and maybe oversensitivity to 3rdh house/ Gemini/ Mercury matters .

At the same time however I also realized in a younger age the power of the word, so to speak. Or specifically the power of MY words. (I guess Mercury in Sagittarius on the GC and conjunct Merlin contributes to that, too).

I try to mind them therefore as I know that I can hurt people with what I put out there, even randomly. It`s not that I strive to abuse anyone, but people seem to receive my words sometimes like through a megaphone and then it goes through their own mental filter, and sometimes it`s received in a bit of a warped way or let`s say unintended way, as it seems to hit people at a sore and raw spot for them.

Anyway in a synastric context I have seen Nessus relate to that real compulsive "hunger". Like you WANT. Period. You WANT (that other person).
The problem start when you can`t get your WANT under control (as it is not really the civilized kind, more raw and untamed as centaurs are, very animalistic).
This WANT generally speaking does NOT take into consideration what the other person wants. So it would be good to have some mitigating aspects that show the Nessus person is not only WANTING, but also CARING for the other.

EDIT
and quite frankly telling someone else they are an abuser or are going to be abused with no choice involved and therefore just aiming to instill fear in the other person, for me is a sign of mental abuse with the tool of astrology.
And no it has NOTHING to do with telling the "truth", it`s a way to exert power and assume superiority over another person.
Just my opinion of course.

posted July 15, 2016 09:28 AM            

quote:

---

and quite frankly telling someone else they are an abuser or are going to be abused with no choice involved and therefore just aiming to instill fear in the other person, for me is a sign of mental abuse with the tool of astrology.
And no it has NOTHING to do with telling the "truth", it`s a way to exert power and assume superiority over another person.

---

I see it that way.

Well the current use of Nessus reflects a dichotomous worldview: there are the good people and bad people, there are abusers and victims.

If you are calling a person an abuser without a damn good reason, that's a form of abuse.

Dejanira also carries that sword. "Oh, their Dejanira is on your such and such? Prepare to be victimized!"

Seriously?

Depending on how sensitive you are, you might say that every single person you ever meet is going to victimize or abuse you, more or less. We don't need asteroids for this. The more important thing is building our own compassion and resilience, taking responsibility for our choices (including how we assess the risk of a relationship, using indicators beyond astrology...real life indications trump the charts!)

I guess that all sounds trite but sometimes when everything is murky, I want to begin at square one and state the obvious (which is not obvious to everyone...if it were, we would not have the problems we do.)

posted July 15, 2016 09:53 AM            

quote:

---

Anyway in a synastric context I have seen Nessus relate to that real compulsive "hunger". Like you WANT. Period. You WANT (that other person).

---

My Nessus is widely conjunct my husband's ASC (about 4°...some wouldn't count it at all.)

Definitely wanted him before he ever took notice of me.

posted July 15, 2016 09:57 AM            

Ceridwen,

everything you have said tells me that you have examined this *risk* within yourself, and from others, as I have. And through that awareness, it has no power over you.

So what to do with the knowledge?
Well, like you said, we fight against the abuses in our lives.

So, we can add, that with Nessus comes the need for AWARENESS of risk, as well as the need for RESPONSIBILITY to others and INTEGRITY as a person.

And yes. Anything that gives GREAT POWER must be mitigated by GREAT EMPATHY.

(I'm not shouting by the way, I am just trying to organise keywords as we explore Nessus)

And let me just emphasise this, as it is one of the main motivations for this thread:

"and quite frankly telling someone else they are an abuser or are going to be abused with no choice involved and therefore just aiming to instill fear in the other person, for me is a sign of mental abuse with the tool of astrology.
And no it has NOTHING to do with telling the "truth", it`s a way to exert power and assume superiority over another person.
Just my opinion of course.

Faith,
I know you have been supportive of viewing Nessus in a balanced way, and I believe if we keep working at it, we will transform this bias that is poisoning trusting people's minds.

Yes, the whole Nessus-Dejanira Abuser-Victim blanket statement simply makes good articles.
It's kinda like selling papers - the more sensationalist or tragic the story, the more it will be bought.
- Chewing gum for the brain, basically.

However, it is the fact that it could feed into people's deep fears and trauma that worries me.

Say a survivor of abuse PAYS to have their chart read by one who espouses this Abuser-Victim blanket interpretation.

----------- How traumatic would it be to be told that your love interest will abuse you like your grandfather did??

----------- How traumatic must it be to be told that despite recovering from domestic violence, you will be a victim again because your friend has their Nessus on your Dejanira?

------------ How hurtful must it be to be told as a survivor of abuse that you will become like your abuser and destroy other lives?

---------- ALL without SOLID EVIDENCE.

Even in therapy, we do not target people this way. This is NOT the way to self-understanding, and carries a MASSIVE PSYCHOLOGICAL RISK to the native being read, by one not qualified to care for them afterwards.

And, they are asteroids! How can there EVER be an "Asteroid of an abuser"??

That's ridiculous. If that's the case then Pluto is the "Planet of the Abuser", and maybe Pluto trine Moon ain't so pretty after all.

We cannot have it both ways.

---------I see no reason why this thread would be locked?

---------SURELY, in the name of KNOWLEDGE, we can challenge ill-informed biases?

posted July 15, 2016 10:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
My Nessus is widely conjunct my husband's ASC (about 4°...some wouldn't count it at all.)

Definitely wanted him before he ever took notice of me.

But I can't think of other examples. I guess I don't need any, since I only married my husband.

---

Interesting. I too have my Nessus on the ASc. of my long-term partner.

I indeed "wanted" him ferociously.
Would I have EVER abused him just to have him?
------------Never in a million years, thanks to INTEGRITY, and RESPONSIBILITY.

posted July 15, 2016 10:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
However, it is the fact that it could feed into people's deep fears and trauma that worries me.

Say a survivor of abuse PAYS to have their chart read by one who espouses this Abuser-Victim blanket interpretation.

----------- How traumatic would it be to be told that your love interest will abuse you like your grandfather did??

----------- How traumatic must it be to be told that despite recovering from domestic violence, you will be a victim again because your friend has their Nessus on your Dejanira?

------------ How hurtful must it be to be told as a survivor of abuse that you will become like your abuser and destroy other lives?

---------- ALL without SOLID EVIDENCE.

Even in therapy, we do not target people this way. This is NOT the way to self-understanding, and carries a MASSIVE PSYCHOLOGICAL RISK to the native being read, by one not qualified to care for them afterwards.

And, they are asteroids! How can there EVER be an "Asteroid of an abuser"??

That's ridiculous. [b]If that's the case then Pluto is the "Planet of the Abuser", and maybe Pluto trine Moon ain't so pretty after all.

We cannot have it both ways.

---

Clarity

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
---------I see no reason why this thread would be locked?

---

Randall protects Ami.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
---------SURELY, in the name of KNOWLEDGE, we can challenge ill-informed biases?

ESPECIALLY those that have the power to HARM others whilst lining the pockets of the biased.

---

But....

Randall will protect Ami.

posted July 15, 2016 10:22 AM            

I am trying to reach a solution to this problem. And the only way to that is through frank discussion.

It is very difficult with this topic.

posted July 15, 2016 10:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
But....

Randall will protect Ami.

It is what it is.

---

Well then. We will just have to focus on exploring the other side of Nessus.
That was my intent.

It will be hard to do this without discussing those pushing against this, but not impossible.
I want to make a case against the current interpretation, and I think we can do this without too much discussion of anyone in particular.

posted July 15, 2016 10:59 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:

Depending on how sensitive you are, you might say that every single person you ever meet is going to victimize or abuse you, more or less. We don't need asteroids for this. The more important thing is building our own compassion and resilience, taking responsibility for our choices (including how we assess the risk of a relationship, using indicators beyond astrology...real life indications trump the charts!)

---

posted July 15, 2016 11:03 AM              

"So, we can add, that with Nessus comes the need for AWARENESS of risk, as well as the need for RESPONSIBILITY to others and INTEGRITY as a person.

And yes. Anything that gives GREAT POWER must be mitigated by GREAT EMPATHY."

That is exactly what I think, too.
And while astrological symbols and aspects will play out, AWARENESS can contribute to HOW we express that astrological symbol.
There is a range of expressions after all.

posted July 15, 2016 11:09 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vajra:

Last - I find the identification of Dejanira with "victim" too simplistic, just as Nessus is probably more than abuse. First, why doesn't anyone consider asteroid Heracles in the Nessus/Dejanira scenario? He does exist too and plays a role in the myth, defending his wife and killing Nessus. And then he gets killed through his wife's trust in a centaur who'd just tried to rape her.

.

---

Yes.

As for Dejanira, beside an insecure wife, she was ALSO a skilled sorceress I think. Or healer, I donīt recall really.

Also, for Heracles - in one version of the story (by Hyginus, fabulae) Heracles rapes Dejanira but promises to come back to marry her.
In the meantime another centaur wants to demand her as wife, and her father, frightened, agrees.
Then Heracles returns, slays the centaur and claims his bride.

But see how THIS love affair started?

WEll the original text uses the word "abducit" for Heracles claiming his bride, a word that means "to lead away" but also "to abduct".
Isn`t he a real sweetheart?

posted July 15, 2016 11:22 AM            

I am very loving and believe is treating everyone with kindness...i do not want to screw ppl over, hurt, lie or manipulate in any way. I want to help others find the darkness in themselves and work through so they can overcome it. That is a huge drive in my life, helping ppl heal so pain doesn't make them act out n hurt others.

I have had someone put their Mars right intop of my Nessus and they brought out in me a very dark side...but through that i was able to learn about myself n eventually cleared so much darkness I didn't realize was inside me.
Do i think Nessus is bad? Ummm....yes n no.
Nessus can be woken up in all of us in a way that's dangerous....if someone comes along n sets planet in hard aspect to our Nessus or if you have hard aspects(very tight) to your Nessus.
No your not bad when Nessus comes out, your seeing a darkness thats been laying dormant and needs healing. Thats a place of fear n pain that has awoken....work with it!!
If you allow it to take control of you, its bad! If you see it, fall prey to it for a moment and then cant handle your behavior n must find healing...you are NOT a Nessus person.
But there are Nessus ppl...ppl who love the energy and dont want to stop. I think these ppl are very few and far between n probably have a stresses out chart n Nessus is right there amongst the stress.
I do think eventually everyone can work through Nessus in a positive way. I think very few are Nessus controlled unless they have very little self awareness.

Edit- i dont think Nessus should be feared or dismissed, i think in every synastry it needs to be looked at. If there is tight squares or conjunction to Nessus, look closer n be aware of what the energy feels like. If you have great synastry with lots of supportive loving aspects...it can help. But sometimes I believe Nessus is a reason to be very cautious. Ive been with too many ppl who deeply hurt me and Nessus was square my Dejanira or they put an aggressive planet on or square my Nessus.

I dont think soft aspects are an issue, but yes i do believe theres s reason to be cautious regarding Nessus.

In a persons natal, of the chart is all jacked up n Nessus is right there playing a part....well, id hope the person had strength to overcome the Nessus energy.

posted July 15, 2016 11:24 AM              

his Nessus:
opposite her Mercury
trine her DESC
trine her IC

her Nessus:
square his Venus exact
biquinteile his Mars exact

my Dad has always been besotted with my Mom`s mind and communicating with her. he wants to ALWAYS Talk. I know they say men are usually more quiet or less verbose - this is NOT true for my Dad.
In fact they recall the story of their first meeting, in a discotheque, when they would be spending hours outside in the car, talking and debating about their political views and the Vietnam war (and I am sure I donīt want to know what elset hey were doing).

He isn`t oppressing her mind, but quite the opposite, seems a little intense and obsessed in wanting to know what she is thinking, maybe sometimes inquiring a little too much (her Mercury is in Scorpio), in fact it makes a T-square with his venus-Jupiter-conjunction in Aquarius. Hence the political debates.

As for her Nessus squaring his Venus exact, no abuse, and also no jealousy, but that is because it is clear to her that they are both in the relationship for the same reason, and there is absolute trust in his love for her. And I think she needs it, too.
She once told me that if she felt she couldn`T trust him, she would be gone the same minute that happened.

(maybe Nessus in Taurus needs that trust and emotional security extra badly).

posted July 15, 2016 11:28 AM              

I agree with you. Nessus IS an intense power, and each has to find a way to deal with it. But the thing is we CAN deal with it, it is still our choice how we use those "primitive instincts" that wake up in us.

posted July 15, 2016 11:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Gabby,

I agree with you. Nessus IS an intense power, and each has to find a way to deal with it. But the thing is we CAN deal with it, it is still our choice how we use those "primitive instincts" that wake up in us.

I tend to be extra snappy when Tr Sun is going over my natal Nessus each year, but I know that, and I reflect on my motives extra attentively (sometimes the urge is there to lash out verbally with some comment that I KNOW will sting and hurt the other person considerably, usually after I felt they wronged me in some way. But I try to take a time out then, and analyze what the REAL problem is, and it usually is within me or the interaction with that person )

---

We are a very self aware group, but thats not the way most ppl live their lives. The ppl that come to us for help are also self aware so o believe they could work through the energy to....but the majority of ppl who could care less about self awareness and have Nessus making a hard aspect to personal planets are not trying to fight the negative energy.
Those are the ppl is be leary of...so telling someone who comes to you for help with their chart that they are a horrible person is massively irresponsible! But telling that person they have energy they must fight n self awareness is necessarily is the correct thing to do.

posted July 15, 2016 11:46 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gabby:
.but the majority of ppl who could care less about self awareness and have Nessus making a hard aspect to personal planets are not trying to fight the negative energy.

---

I donīt believe that`s generally true. There are heavily self-unaware astrologers and very aware non-astrologers.

posted July 15, 2016 12:22 PM            

Vajra,
I am glad you support the premise of the thread, and care about this too. And I appreciate you bringing more astrological evidence to the table.

With your partner's Nessus cj. your 8th house Sun, how could there possibly NOT be abuse, going by the Nessus-Abuser interp... and yet, in its place we have GREAT EMPATHY with regards your wellbeing.
Interesting.
It sounds like he supports your self-development if he is concerned with all aspects of your being, which would be fitting with touching the Sun.
In the 8th house, I strongly doubt you would miss any abuse if it existed, I imagine it would strike at the core.

That is also interesting about Dejanira.
Perhaps she is not as helpless as we would think... (note: not a justification of rape, of course).

Gabby,
thank you for more astrology.
Mars on Nessus triggering dark feelings or thoughts makes sense.
Mars would really poke Nessus with a stick though, I would think that Mars would be a challenge to Nessus' sense of power, which would naturally lead one to *consider* darker thoughts and deeds, in order to *win*.

But again, your INTEGRITY, and AWARENESS of your darker nature (we all have one) led you to work through those feelings instead of harming someone, and in doing so, you loosen Nessus' power to do harm, and gain WISDOM that can be used to empower or protect others.

This is what I am talking about!

I understand your caution Gabby, however, the fact we don't know who is self-aware and who is not, is more reason to fully explore Nessus IMO.

----------------------------------------------------------

----------- Here's another scenario:

Say one has been experiencing dark thoughts and feelings and gets their chart read with Nessus involved, and is then told that they are an abuser.
------ that person had not acted, and may have thought that they should go to therapy to work out the darkness inside them, rather than hurt someone, HOWEVER, if they are told that they ARE already an abuser, why would they even bother with the work of therapy?
Might as well just go with the impulses.
They may lose hope.

There are paedophiles who never abuse children and WILLINGLY get castrated to reduce their risk to children.

------------- If someone said, "You are an abuser, you will always be an abuser because you will always have Nessus on ASc." - why bother trying??
Why not just give in to the darkness??

posted July 15, 2016 01:14 PM            

To me, astrology is a tool one must use wisely. It does not instill anything onto the people for it is merely a tool, and one is not bound to it. Using fatalism in such an arbitrary topic can often drive people away from believing in the true power it wields, which is a misunderstanding and lack of understanding in how one chooses to use it. Astrology allows for us to get farther in the quest that has been cast onto our journey as we take each step willingly, choosing where we must go. Ultimately, it is up to the way we utilize it that will determine our success; it does not curse you with inescapable predicaments that you are forced to deal with. We were given the charts, the charts were not given to us. Understanding the meaning behind the difference in that statement will allow you to understand why astrology was brought her in the first place.

I read your thoughts on Nessus and agree with them myself. There are much more in depth and experiment with possibility rather than fatalism

posted July 15, 2016 03:16 PM              

I fear otherwise this might get too personal here; while of course it`s true Ami interpretes Nessus in a way as depicted here, she is not the only one.

And to be honest, I want to keep that thread from getting closed, and singling some members out, is a sure shot way to HAVE it closed.

posted July 15, 2016 03:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceridwen:
I donīt believe that`s generally true. There are heavily self-unaware astrologers and very aware non-astrologers.

I think what you said then is the important point, and cannot be stressed enough.
Talk to people, then you can see where their heart lies.

---

I would say less than half of the ppl are striving to be self aware, so the majority are not. But then again i live in the US, so it could a biased opinion due to my area, this country being more self involved and less self aware. We dont teach self awareness, care or concern for others on TV so ppl don't think it's that important. Even our religions are built in ways that tear ppl down not build them up.
So my statement is based on what i see here...i hope other countries are much more awake!

posted July 15, 2016 03:40 PM            

Sure, aspects of ourselves can be hidden deeper than others, but imposing severely negative interpretations, without considering the whole chart and the real life, breathing person with experiences, is just make believe.
For astrology to gain respect as a science, it needs to be grounded - fatalism is only one colour, that's not even close to the spectrum we are made up of.

I agree, we are given energy in the form of the charts, just like we are born into a specific childhood environment.
------ we do not choose these energies, but we chose WHAT we do with them.

Example:

------ Mum wanted child to be a lawyer, child wanted to be an astronaut - child 1 chooses to please mum and be a lawyer, child 2 becomes an astronaut.
----- neither got to chose their mother, but they get to chose what do do with her influence.

So yes, I completely agree and this is why fatalism is NOT astrology!