posted January 16, 2005 04:35 PM         

I know this body is the vehicle for our soul and the look of it holds no real significance. (or at least in my opinion) But then I also feel we should take really good care of our bodies, so that we can express ourselves at our maximum potentials with our mind using all of its faculties and our bodies in good shape to endure life on this physical plane. Our bodies are also supposed to be sacred temples to house the soul. I'm caught between these arguments.

Also a very spiritual person whom I greatly admire has decided to get something done, so that kind of threw me off a bit

I don't want to come to a decision so that I can judge others, I'm just curious from a spiritual perspective if getting plastic surgery and altering your sacred body is breaking a universal law or spiritual purpose. I would love to hear you thoughts on this.....

Monica

posted January 16, 2005 05:30 PM         

quote:

---

I'm just curious from a spiritual perspective if getting plastic surgery and altering your sacred body is breaking a universal law or spiritual purpose

---

In my opinion, no, it is not.

First, there are distinctions in all things. What of the children with cleft palettes? For them, or anyone with a disfigurement, plastic surgery is a modern miracle.

Everything that exists, exists as a Creation of God/dess.

Sure, the surgeries can be taken too far. Joan Rivers looks like a freak. It's vanity, of course. And a very risky way to indulge vanity.

We've chosen to live in a society that places an extreme value on our appearance. We have the means to alter our appearance...in the extreme. I don't leave the house till my make-up is on and my hair looks nice...I iron my clothes each day, and when my wide-legged pants go out of style, I won't wear them anymore. Thank goodness we haven't revived most of the clothes from the 1980s. But I do have my own style which I value over fashion, and I like to look good.

The difference is that I don't take a knife to my body, and unless I were to suffer some sort of accident, I probably never will.

I have to admit that I think some of it is really sad--this quest to be something other than what we are; to look like this transient definition of beauty. Like that woman who wanted to look like her husband's beloved cat. She too looks like a freak now.

Honestly, I'm not sure if our bodies are sacred temples, or if they are machines to which we bind ourselves for the purpose of living in this time/space. We will exist long after our bodies have faded to dust.

posted January 16, 2005 06:12 PM         

I think however you perceive your body to be that is what it is.
If its sacred then it shall be.

I don't know what it's like to have disfigurement, so I really cannot speak for those people.

NO matter how much my body changes I would never get plastic surgery, I don't place any value on apperances, even though society does.

As Trillian said, everything is a creation of God/dess. It is neither good or bad, only what you make of it.
I disagree with celebrities spending millions on surgery for improving their appearance, it's vain.
But if they prefer to live that shallow, then that's a choice which they have a right to make.

I personally wouldn't bother with it, as I do not bother with fashion. Rather I choose clothes that are conservative, neat and classic that 'should' last a long time. I don't spend alot of money either, I gather what I need and that is all.

posted January 16, 2005 06:48 PM         

I kind want to change the title now because I didn't really mean to ask if plastic surgery was good or bad, but rather is it a spiritually wise decision? I guess I already knew the answer. I couldn't imagine Buddha or Jesus going in for a nose job or higher cheek bones And though I'm with you two in that I don't want to change anything about myself, I understand the reasons for doing it and wouldn't judge other girls for choosing to.

I was refering to those people who chose to do it for vanity reasons and not those who have real disfigurations. I'm so glad there is plastic surgery for people with serious problems because they have to constantly be reminded that aren't normal on a daily basis by the way people look at them or treat them. How can they live a normal life and forget about appearances that way and it doesn't help that we already live in a pretty shallow society that even puts pressure on the average woman.

Well I admire both of you girls for knowing that your beautiful without sugery because you are! I do like to fix my hair and dress in clothes that reflect me for fun, but I just hate how its so important. Ugh, looks like I'm caught in this struggle. Society's ideals vs. my own haha
Though lately I've been looking in the mirror less and worrying less about clothes and I haven't read fashion magazines in like 4 years (thats really helped me personally). Of course its always easier for me when my bf isn't around..he's in Bolivia right now. I can wear sweats, eat ice cream all night long and go the whole day without makeup if I want so there! Haha theres something liberating about doing that for me

Well thanks again girls, I always value your input

Monica

posted January 16, 2005 09:53 PM         

Of course cleft palettes and reconstructive surgery are a whole other story.

Breaking spiritual Law? Maybe not. But a sign of deeper distress? Yeah, probably.

"Honestly, I'm not sure if our bodies are sacred temples, or if they are machines to which we bind ourselves for the purpose of living in this time/space."

That's nice trill. That made me think.

We use that phrase "sacred temple" too often, don't we? It's lost a lot of its meaning. I would equate the body with (dare I say it here?) a church. It's not the wood and plaster with which the church is made that makes it sacred. Maybe it is what's done in the church that makes it holy. The prayers and the wishes and the good thoughts make the building sacred. The flesh itself is maybe not so sacred, but the soul which resides within makes it sacred.

posted January 17, 2005 02:35 PM         

Yea I have always viewed plastic surgery as a really extreme way to better yourself, or in some cases make you look like a freak. I agree that if I was ever so inclined to get it done, I would probably need to look deeper at myself to see what the real problem is...somewhere along the lines of extremely low self esteem and owing my worth to the way I look.

Unfortunately, where I go to school, I see many girls who seem to think that way. The pressure to be beautiful here at my age is immense. I just find it sad and disturbing for those girls who haven't found their real worth yet. Fortunately I have found mine and am hanging on to it dearly, but like I said the pressure can even absorb me sometimes. I'm just going to keep remembering that I'm more than just a body and really ground myself so that I'm not swept away with the breeze.

Yea I think your analogy for the body being like a church probably makes a lot of sense. If the appearance of the body counted for more, them I guess that would be an argument for being superficial. I know in my heart that we weren't meant to judge people on appearances, so I'm going to say your right Though I'm not arguing that we should all let ourselves go because I think if we're healthy then our soul has a better chance of communicating itself to the world. Also out of respect for our divine vehicle gifts, I don't think theres anything wrong with fixing it up to meet the world. If anything you are respecting yoursELF and YOUR SELF, and even sending a message that you think your worth the effort. Though for those who don't want to give a seconds thought to their looks, I see nothing wrong with that either. They have a different view of the body, maybe even a healthier one, who knows?? To each their own; we're all beauties no matter how much time we spend in the mirror anyway, right

Monica

posted January 17, 2005 03:03 PM         

For those who don't remember..it was said that when Atlantis existed the Gods and Goddesses who were enlightened failed to warn the people of Atlantis of the new reign of lust and greed and that is what caused the spread of evil on earth. It was also said that now the God/desses were given another chance to save the world and were sent somehow to California (specifically around the San Andreas fault) to bring back the flame of faith and love as those are the only things strong enough to cancel out greed and lust. Hmm...you guys have no idea how that story reached me. I have been feeling this way in my heart for so long and now that I have been drawn the that exact place in California, I wonder if I supposed to be part of this purpose. It just seems so far out though, but hey what didn't first seem far out to us that we now hold as Truth? Did anyone else relate to that occult teaching?

posted January 17, 2005 03:52 PM         

quote:

---

We use that phrase "sacred temple" too often, don't we? It's lost a lot of its meaning. I would equate the body with (dare I say it here?) a church. It's not the wood and plaster with which the church is made that makes it sacred. Maybe it is what's done in the church that makes it holy. The prayers and the wishes and the good thoughts make the building sacred. The flesh itself is maybe not so sacred, but the soul which resides within makes it sacred.

And yeah, I think imagining Jesus getting a nose job or the Buddha signing up for a face lift settles the question.

---

Tink: yup yup yup.

posted January 17, 2005 11:11 PM         

I've posted on things related to this before and haven't gotten very much feedback, so I won't bring it up anymore. Sorry if I'm sounding repetitive.

posted January 18, 2005 02:30 AM         

LeoSweetHeart, I'm overwhelmed and saddened too by our cultures current obsession with the beautiful and rich and famous. I think it's a diversionary tactic. It seems to be working quite well.

posted January 20, 2005 05:28 PM         

i started the rainbow diet 5 days ago and found really interesting information on the forums. everyone is so informative and helpful that i couldnt help myself but join aswell! thanks for the welcome!

i am in a business where my appearance is scrutinized every day. it is really very difficult remembering who you are and not falling into the trap of what is considered 'normal' anymore. i have my days aswell where i think about how i can improve my appearance...

I can tell you one really true thing. You will NEVER make everybody happy...

I spent 2 hours a day, 7 days a week in the gym, working on myself, pushing myself way too hard so that i can please the people i work with by being perfect. I got there. the perfect number 2 dress size. a number that people only dream about. it wasn't a month later when work hadn't improved, that my boss walked up to me and said, "Tamaryn, you just dont look good enough, you need to work on yourself more." It was then and there where I asked myself....SINCE WHEN DID I START LISTENING TO OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS AND STOP BELIEVING IN MYSELF? and also, where one person might think you are great, there will always be other people who think you are not. and in the end, it come down to only one person. YOU.

sorry for the novel lol

posted January 20, 2005 07:09 PM         

I never tried the rainbow diet, but I've been wanting to experiment with it. How's it going for you so far? I've heard mixed results from it, of course I'm sure some didn't follow it exactly and Linda was clear about this being imperative. I hope it works for you.

I'm sorry that having to deal with the pressure of looking perfect all the time, comes with the territory of your job. So this whole culture of worshipping beauty must REALLY bother you. I'm glad you have learned to plant your feet firmly on the ground and remember that your soooo much more than what you look like. That must be really crucial for you so you don't go crazy trying to please everyone. Is it getting easier for you, now that your working on your perception?

Sometimes between my Bolivian boyfriend, who basically came from a culture that worships beautiful women and living less than two hours from LA in San Diego land of tan bleach blond, size two girls I start noticing all the things I should do to look "better" and it really does take me away from living a fulfilling life. Also sometimes my vain Leo side rears its ugly head and wants to be the center of attention, but now that the standards of beauty have changed from metro Virginia, I've got more work to do to get that attention. Instead of exotic, its tan and blond (if this is not your natural color, well dye it..oh your not white, thats okay dye it, lol) I seem to constantly be battling the Leo in me, the woman in side who wants to be adored by her man, then the spiritual me who wants looks to be taboo and beauty to be measured by the heart. I think I have come to this conclusion over the past year: I want my current boyfriend or whichever man I end up with to see me as beautiful and flawless, but only because its ME the woman he LOVES. I want society to be loving and accepting of everyone and favor being around those with beautiful hearts and to be blind to Hollywood beauty. like the way children are! Gosh I'm such an idealist at heart For now I'll work on my own perceptions before tackling the whole world, haha. I'll just let the world go hang since they're such a stubborn bunch.

I think even if I had no flaws whatsoever and I pleased everyone appearance wise, I wouldn't feel any better about mySELF because I would know people are only treating me that way for my looks and not who I am, not to mention I would probably forget completely who I was if I became too caught up in it. So being flawless lookwise is not what I want to strive for. I want to have a gorgeous heart and soul and live an emotionally RICH life...I think I will start repeating this 6x a day when I wake up and before I go to sleep as my new mantra, hah.

Haha I think I beat your novel so don't feel bad, I'm just glad to have someone to talk about this with. It seems like you really understand what I'm going through. I'm glad your here with us

Lots of Love,
Monica

posted January 20, 2005 07:49 PM         

Hi Tink, sorry it took me so long to answer. Yea your right those values seem to have distracted the culture as a whole and are working very well at driving most away from Love and spirituality. Its very sad I'm glad to know that there are people like us who see past it all though. I guess all we can do is lead by example

posted January 20, 2005 07:56 PM         

The frightening thing is, we look at magazines and go green with envy when we see
these stunning girls with amazing figures too! What the majority of people don't
realise, is that what we see as reality is 100% pure PHOTOSHOP! That perfect waist has been made smaller by a sweep of a digital paintbrush. And those thighs! a tuck here and a tuck there.......thats it! Did you know that the L'Oreal ad that
promotes anti-wrinkle creams pay their model thousands of dollars a year to appear
on tv for them...and do you know how old she is? her name is Natalia and she is 16!
Then beautiful maturing woman look at her and wonder why they dont look like her.
Unfortunately though, when things are around us 24/7, it is very hard NOT TO BE
influenced by it.

Boyfriends can be dangerous Unfortunately their opinions mean the world to us. Thats ok. One should openly receive constructive critisism. When it starts becoming an issue where you compare yourself to other woman, or feel second best to him, then things could be heading in a destructive direction. not necessarily for the two of you, but just to yourself emotionally.

The blonde thing mystifies me. I never iked blondes. And when i was blonde (against my will) i HATED IT!!!! Blondes might have more fun, but brunettes are mysterious,
dangerous, exotic, sexy, and intelligent. I find it quite interesting how men say they like blondes, but when it comes to having relationships with mysterious aspects,
brunettes always top their list.

I come from a very different culture. I am South African. SO my view on these things
could be very different to an American's!
I have lived all over the world though so I think we all generally have the same issues.

ooohhhhh! i love being a knowflake! what exactly is a moderator though. and how do they become them? and what does *bump* mean?

LOL. i have a lot to learn in LindaLand!

Tamaryn

posted January 20, 2005 09:15 PM         

Like I wish people would see beauty and say "oh thats a beautiful expression of the divine" (speaking of beauty in a shapes in sizes of course) and then move on instead of gawking or worshipping. haha that would sound funny if someone really said that, but you know what I mean

Oh trust me I know all about the tricks of the modeling trade. I actually modeled back in 8th and 9th grade (age 13 and 14) and I remember them telling me that it was the perfect time to make contacts and get my career launched because I would only have until I was like 18 or 19 to make it big, to supermodel status. And with makeup on, they make you look older so older women compare themselves to you wondering how to get such flawless skin! If they only knew they were striving to look like their daughters. Its so deceitful, really.

I don't read fashion magazines anymore, they just remind me of all of that and work toward undoing all of the progress I've made.

Well me and my boyfriend have already traveled down that rocky road you warned me against. It was inevitable. I was totally against men treating women like sex objects and was pretty sheltered from the opposite sex (except for a few boyfriends) before I met him and then of course he was trained in the art of cat calling and being a machista Bolivian man, so we had no hope of dodging the problems to come. Well we managed to make it out alive from all the destruction, but now we're back at square one trying to put the pieces back together. Yea I learned that the second I stopped feeling secure with him..it was all downhill from there. But fortunately we had enough love to make it through and now any problems we have in the future will be piece of cake. Sorry I'm like telling you my life story

*~ to be a moderator means screening the posts to make sure they are appropriate and making sure that they are under the right topics and such. Basically they kind of supervise the threads just to make sure we're behaving ourselves. I pretty sure thats what they do anyways.

*~you put bump when you want to bring up an old thread to the top of the list to bring attention to it.

Oh kewl, your South African I've met some super friendly ones so I can't help but be a little biased. So what brought you to New Zealand? I hear its absolutely gorgeous there! After seeing the making of the Lord of the Rings, I really want to go!

Anyways, I really need to get moving, I've been online for way too long. *Off to the gym to get my blood circulating* Talk to you soon.

posted January 21, 2005 12:09 AM         

You lose who you really are. Start being what other people want you to be. And when you are, and they are still not satisfied, then you start getting a serious reality check. You wake up one day wondering where you went. What happened to that innocent girl who was so carefree and loved everything in life. How can a job teach you to hate so much and be so unsatisfied with yourself?

Then something happened. I started getting bitter with these people and reached a breaking point. I gave them all a finger and came to see my family in new zealand after a year.

now im here. and i am trying to figure out what to do. i am so purely capricorn asc. scorpio that i cannot accept QUITTING. i am thinking to carry on on my terms and make the most out of things. maybe i will be able to quit when i KNOW that i've given it my best shot.

after all....a big rumour....you have to be young to make it big. not true. take a look at the ones around you that have. they dont look a day younger than 26! well most of them anyway!

even though this is not a life dream....the reality is, to get what you want you need money. i am struggling to grasp linda's advice on money and how it comes to you when you do what you love...i know there is so much truth in it. but applying it to your every day life is a whole different story!

oh...i'm off on a roll again! i better move my emotions to another forum! :laugh:

why is it that the most appealing men are always the difficult ones? i wish you luck in your relationship. decent men are far and few between and you are lucky to have a bolivian beauty! but im sure he is even luckier to have you and he better believe that!

we could seriously have a "who can write the longest letter" contest. i have totally neglected my emails.....

Tamaryn

posted January 21, 2005 03:53 AM         

You know, now that Im older all those little one liners my elders told me when I was younger (you know the ones you'd roll your eyes at) are starting to make sense and one that fits this topic is "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" you are so right Tamaryn, you are not going to please everyone because everyone has their own opinion as to what is beautiful.