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Author Topic:   Regarding sexism from either gender
AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 06, 2011 01:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Popular culture tells us that women and men's brains are just different. It's true that male and female hormones affect brain development differently, and imaging studies have found brain differences in the ways women and men feel pain, make social decisions and cope with stress. The extent to which these differences are genetic versus shaped by experience — the old nature-versus-nurture debate — is unknown.

But for the most part, male and female brains (and brainpower) are similar. A 2005 American Psychologist analysis of research on gender differences found that in 78 percent of gender differences reported in other studies, the effect of gender on the behavior was in the small or close-to-zero range. And recent studies have debunked myths about the genders' divergent abilities. A study published in the January 2010 Psychological Bulletin looked at almost half a million boys and girls from 69 countries and found no overall gap in math ability. Focusing on our differences may make for catchy book titles, but in neuroscience, nothing is ever that simple. http://www.livescience.com/12916-10-facts-human-brain-780.html
http://www.apa.org/research/action/share.aspx
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050919082317.htm

Perhaps because I'm male [and I work surrounded by women] I notice female sexism more, but I think it's important to note that it's all nonsense where ideas of mental superiority are concerned.

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LEXX
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posted April 06, 2011 02:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I detest sexism/sexist attitudes/stereotyping towards and from either gender
in any way shape or form.
I have had to fight it as has my son.


------------------
~The present time is theirs, but the future is mine.~Nikola Tesla
~There is no box.~H♥
~Balance is not letting anyone love you less than you love yourself.~Felipe
~I remember, therefore I am immortal~LEXX }><}}}(*>~

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mochai
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posted April 06, 2011 09:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mochai     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I posted the catchy book title because it was 3:00 am and I had horrible female cramps. TMI I know!!! I was also growing tired of the studies on neuroanatomical differences in the structure and composition of the brain with information biasing men and giving all who came across it some sort of super-ego about male brains that just irked me. Not to mention that it just wasn't that grounded in reality as we perform almost completely the same.

I've incarnated both male and female. The scorpio in me wishes I was male.

This particularly struck a chord of concern in me.. even just in the presentation..

"Over-inflated claims of gender difference seen in the mass media affect men and women in work, parenting and relationships, said Hyde. Studies of gender and evaluation of leaders in the workplace show that women who go against the caring, nurturing stereotype may pay for it dearly when being hired or evaluated. This also happens with the portrayals of relationships in the media. Best-selling books and popular magazine articles assert that women and men can't get along because they communicate too differently, said Dr. Hyde. Maybe the problem is that they give up prematurely because they believe they can't change what they mistakenly believe is an innate trait, she added. "

I just find that really sad. Most of my friends are male.

I hate to say it, but Pop culture/psychology is usually pretty ignorant. It's unfortunate that the mass media has so much influence over us as a people.

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AcousticGod
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posted April 06, 2011 10:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From the other side I see women claim all kinds of entitlement in their relationships that seem to be rooted in these societal notions that women run relationships and men must obey them. Some women see themselves as the agent of reform for men, which implies that men require reform.

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LEXX
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From: Still out looking for Schrodinger's cat.......& LEXIGRAMMING.♥.. is my Passion!
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posted April 06, 2011 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mochai

AG
I agree.
However many men and women have been literally brainwashed by whatever society they live in.
America seems to not be as sexist as many other countries.
Yet still we do see it too often.
Pink is for girls, blue is for boys.
This is a girl toy, this is a toy for boys.
From infancy folks begin the brainwashing by
reinforcing these things, making sure boys are treated one way and girls another.
So it is no surprise that many become adults
with sexist attitudes about each other.
I so hated that nursery rhyme, part of the early brainwashing"

Circa 1820 England, and still part of many a child's early years.

quote:
What are little boys made of?
What are little boys made of?

Frogs and snails
And puppy-dogs' tails,

That's what little boys are made of.

What are little girls made of?
What are little girls made of?

Sugar and spice
And everything nice,

That's what little girls are made of.



Enough to make a dog puke in my opinion.

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AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA
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posted April 07, 2011 01:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember that. I think it might have hung on a wall outside my room when I was little. Only I remember it as "Snips" and snails, and puppy dog tails. My sister had the matching one hanging outside of her room. Kind of ironic considering I'm the feminine Sun & Moon, and she's the masculine Sun. I don't know what her Moon is.

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Lei_Kuei
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posted April 07, 2011 02:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lei_Kuei     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As a child I ate a snail crawling on the gable end of our house, ya.. I blame the rhyme!


------------------
“It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.”
Philip K. Dick

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wavelink
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posted April 07, 2011 07:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wavelink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
True sexism which is superiority of any kind and reciprocal humiliations is as mindless as possible no doubt.

But the notion that male and femma are the same don't hold any reasonable ground.

Don't count much on researches myself forgot them after the salt sequence. It was like: researchers from "N" discovered that salt is very bad for human health, avoid at any cost! And I did. Soon after - researchers from "Y" said that salt is vitally important for "some" part of the body. Don't miss the daily portion! Me followed. Than again and again. Me finally said: get lost lol

Later found that most of these are paid for like firm for wedding dresses has latest collection gathering dust on the shelves so orders something in those lines and problem solved, etc.

Just simple look at the obvious proves that males and femmas are opposites nearly as day and night. Male's body is beautiful when square-ish and with muscles shaped by movement, action&initiative, while female's when oval-ish with fats shaped by passions&pleasures. Start from the visible and go as deep as you wish and will discover oppositions all the way. Include even ancient religions like Hinduism with shiva/shakti, Taoism - yin/yang, etc.

Everywhere is stated that life force is of dual nature and the real fun is in the mutual play and dependence.

To be able to ascend and sit on the throne of unity is necessary for personal self-mastery (the nessus thing hehe), but then again everyone goes and enjoy the duality.

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Chahldean
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posted April 07, 2011 08:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chahldean     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Halo AG

This reminds me of an old story I was reMinded of
at a recent wedding toast...

A Woman finds a good man
and tries to make him better.

A Man finds a good woman
and hopes she never changes.

In the end...
The Woman always says," your never going to change!"
and the Man says, "your not the Woman I married!"


------------------

"We are the Music Makers. We are the Dreamers of Dreams"

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Ami Anne
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posted April 07, 2011 08:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wavelink:
True sexism which is superiority of any kind and reciprocal humiliations is as mindless as possible no doubt.

But the notion that male and femma are the same don't hold any reasonable ground.

Don't count much on researches myself forgot them after the salt sequence. It was like: researchers from "N" discovered that salt is very bad for human health, avoid at any cost! And I did. Soon after - researchers from "Y" said that salt is vitally important for "some" part of the body. Don't miss the daily portion! Me followed. Than again and again. Me finally said: get lost lol

Later found that most of these are paid for like firm for wedding dresses has latest collection gathering dust on the shelves so orders something in those lines and problem solved, etc.

Just simple look at the obvious proves that males and femmas are opposites nearly as day and night. Male's body is beautiful when square-ish and with muscles shaped by movement, action&initiative, while female's when oval-ish with fats shaped by passions&pleasures. Start from the visible and go as deep as you wish and will discover oppositions all the way. Include even ancient religions like Hinduism with shiva/shakti, Taoism - yin/yang, etc.

Everywhere is stated that life force is of dual nature and the real fun is in the mutual play and dependence.

To be able to ascend and sit on the throne of unity is necessary for personal self-mastery (the nessus thing hehe), but then again everyone goes and enjoy the duality.


You may have your Saturn on my Sun but I sure agree with you

------------------
Life is lived in the sand box.

He who controls his Spirit is greater than he who controls a city
Proverbs

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AcousticGod
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posted April 07, 2011 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm quite good at analyzing things, Wavelink, and genders are certainly not opposites. You don't have to look far to find a masculine woman, or a feminine man. You also don't have to look far to find intelligent and unintelligent of either gender.

I agree that interplay between the masculine and feminine is one of the dynamics of life, I just think it's necessary to know that masculine and feminine energies exist in both genders.

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mochai
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From: Charon
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posted April 07, 2011 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mochai     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chahldean:
Halo AG

This reminds me of an old story I was reMinded of
at a recent wedding toast...

A Woman finds a good man
and tries to make him better.

A Man finds a good woman
and hopes she never changes.

In the end...
The Woman always says," your never going to change!"
and the Man says, "your not the Woman I married!"



Rofl..

Very true. Though I just leave them rather than change them.

quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
From the other side I see women claim all kinds of entitlement in their relationships that seem to be rooted in these societal notions that women run relationships and men must obey them. Some women see themselves as the agent of reform for men, which implies that men require reform.

And this is probably why I'm a hermit most of the time and/or why I've had so many men bring up marriage with me. There are interesting things rooted in sociobiology where the incidence of prostate cancer has increased significantly in men over the recent decades. I blame this on some of the societal changes that go into the above. I seem to forget the article..

I don't know where this is coming from, but men also benefit more from marrige than women health wise. Women are the most likely to ask for a divorce etc. There is something certainly wrong with our society and I don't see it playing out well for either gender.

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PlutoSquared
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posted April 07, 2011 11:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PlutoSquared     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-

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wavelink
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posted April 07, 2011 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wavelink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I'm quite good at analyzing things, Wavelink, and genders are certainly not opposites. You don't have to look far to find a masculine woman, or a feminine man. You also don't have to look far to find intelligent and unintelligent of either gender.

I agree that interplay between the masculine and feminine is one of the dynamics of life, I just think it's necessary to know that masculine and feminine energies exist in both genders.


Hehe, even saying masculine (for woman) you admit that this is not natural female quality but male's. And vise versa. So while female remains totally opposite to male, certain individuals could be mixing the stuff.

The world we live in is far from perfect and so are the ppl. There are much bigger diversions than this. It's not easy too.

Everyone have all the universe inside, but actual expression should be pure and shiny. As in yin/yang symbol both of them have an opposite spot buried in the thickest part, but are expression of the exact forces.

The quality of intelligence is dependent of lvl of evolution and don't have any connection with this.

Ami, come on, saturn is not a bad planet

Who can make me flawless otherwise?! Without saturn it's very easy for ppl. to assess us and consequently leach our energy.

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PlutoSquared
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posted April 07, 2011 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PlutoSquared     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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AcousticGod
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posted April 07, 2011 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with what you said, PS.

I've heard of a study where two groups of people were presented with the same resume. One was told it was a man's, and the other told it was a woman's. I forget if there was also an interview component. The groups tended to view the resume as from a male positively, while the other group viewed the resume as from a woman negatively.

Regarding child bearing, and all that, I don't know what to say. Having a child can be avoided by both sexes. People of both sexes just aren't responsible when it comes to having sex. They don't want to put on a condom, or take birth control, or even just pull out (FFS!). It's a fair point to say that the onus of child raising is put on women unevenly more. I'm just saying, don't have kids if you don't want that responsibility. It kind of makes you realize the practical nature of the Christian call for no sex outside of marriage, because that commitment by both to really raise the child is desirable.

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PlutoSquared
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posted April 07, 2011 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PlutoSquared     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Regarding child bearing, and all that, I don't know what to say. Having a child can be avoided by both sexes. People of both sexes just aren't responsible when it comes to having sex. They don't want to put on a condom, or take birth control, or even just pull out (FFS!). It's a fair point to say that the onus of child raising is put on women unevenly more. I'm just saying, don't have kids if you don't want that responsibility. It kind of makes you realize the practical nature of the Christian call for no sex outside of marriage, because that commitment by both to really raise the child is desirable.

I agree with the practical nature of the Christian "call". But, speaking of what the current social standards...

Women often times (ignorantly) want to have children with these "irresponsible, flakey men" because that's how their fathers were, and because they have no idea what's ahead of them...

They will bear the burden, while the K Fed's walk on and reproduce for the 5th time.

Men are not held to a higher level of responsibility for that, neither by women or by men, or by their role-models. There is almost no incentive for a man to be a "man" nowadays.

To say that birth control is a solve all... no. Birth control, of any kind, is not a 100% guarantee. Not to mention, often times couples mutually decide to take reproductive risks, and that is THE SOCIAL NORM. Honest truth, there. Thus, we have a society that promotes sexual liberation with reproductive recklessness, in the midst of an unhealthy, unbalanced, sexist, narcissistic culture. Abracadabra! You get the 21st century.

Sexisim will go away when both sexes are allowed ideal freedom with fair distribution of social responsibility.

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AcousticGod
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posted April 07, 2011 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Not to mention, often times couples mutually decide to take reproductive risks, and that is THE SOCIAL NORM. Honest truth, there.

I totally agree.

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AcousticGod
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posted April 07, 2011 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dp

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Ami Anne
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posted April 07, 2011 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wavelink:
Hehe, even saying masculine (for woman) you admit that this is not natural female quality but male's. And vise versa. So while female remains totally opposite to male, certain individuals could be mixing the stuff.

The world we live in is far from perfect and so are the ppl. There are much bigger diversions than this. It's not easy too.

Everyone have all the universe inside, but actual expression should be pure and shiny. As in yin/yang symbol both of them have an opposite spot buried in the thickest part, but are expression of the exact forces.

The quality of intelligence is dependent of lvl of evolution and don't have any connection with this.

Ami, come on, saturn is not a bad planet

Who can make me flawless otherwise?! Without saturn it's very easy for ppl. to assess us and consequently leach our energy.


Will you be my guy

------------------
Life is lived in the sand box.

He who controls his Spirit is greater than he who controls a city
Proverbs

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wavelink
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posted April 07, 2011 01:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wavelink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Will you be my guy



Wow...

I live in many hours difference from the time displayed on the forum...

anyways


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Chahldean
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posted April 07, 2011 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chahldean     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Great Topic AG.....one that certainly is relevant in today's climate of Individualistic Revolution and Quest for Spiritual Freedom.

Halo PlutoSquared

(First, I would like to compliment your...
passion and outspokenness hear
and on the Threads you comment.
You tell it like it is and I very much admire that. )

Again, another sensitive subject
that arouses fervor in it's subjects...
Subjectively.

The Age Old debate of the Sexes
begins to narrow now in the
Age of Androgyny... Aquarius.

Assuming that those here
have a somewhat Holistic understanding of
Human Nature as a Whole
we can agree to disagree
and hopefully lay the basic foundations
of Equality in all It's shapes, forms and sexes.

Sexism is, in it's very definition, limited to exactly that....sex and gender. And it's portrayal in society at large and how we see it from our own I's.

Due to the fact that, in this 3 dimensional Whirled,
most Beings perceive others as they "see them"
we are often forced to regurgitate this debate of the sexes ad nauseam.

But such is the case and" it is what it is"......SO

We are told of many sexist diads throughout Time
that often portray the man as the carefree, selfish dominant creature who's guiding force is that of self interest and personal fulfillment and the woman as the subservient servant and child bearing martyr whose only purpose is to serve their mate's every needs.
Truly, a twisted role model scenario that has been perpetuated even in today's society.

When we look into science and the discovered foundation of what decides the gender; we find the Y chromosome in the sperm of man, while the egg is asexual....( something Henry XVIII should have been told!) bringing about the debate of the "chicken and the egg" argument of the sexes, which perpetuates a fictional dominance of one sex over the other. A total waste of thought and words IMO.

Through oppressive religious beliefs and control, within oppressive government mandates and statutes, Humanity has suffered the loss of the innate knowledge..."the union of two Wholes become One", paralleling the Spirit and Mortality of Life ITself.

Man has been portrayed as a “god” in most religions while women often play subservient of fate for ”mankind” and his odysseys.....nonSense.

However, by knowing this and continuing to follow the defunct perimeters set up for our current role modeling of today, we are suffering in many more Ways than need Be.
Both sexes and All people suffer.

For example....
We hear the cries of persecuted Women in such countries where there is approved prostitution, underage Human sex trade, women's rights violated on all levels whilst they are forced to bear male children to their oppressors. Women are beaten, enslaved, discarded and used by the physcial dominant neanderthal that works solely form the id and antiquated notions of male supremacy.
Meanwhile.... in the “21st Century developing Nations ” those who claim to "be Free" and ” liberated”, turn a blind Eye to such atrocities on a daily basis, as it does not affect them, as you say PS, personally. All while, submitting to the under lying current of male dominance in the household, work force and our parenting roles; most men still view this place as a “man’s world”, not real eyesing it’s called Mother Earth for a reason.

Conversely, my thoughts turn to parenthood and how we raise our children....
I often thought that if we were were to make such changes in humanity and restore the respect, honor and glory of the Feminine Power; our parenting should be constructed in ways that allow Mothers to nurture this respect in boys, so as to ensure their perceptions of Women are wholesome and reciprocal on all levels.

I believe that this is happening as we speak due to the Great Age we have entered......slowly of course, but alas it’s time has come for the Truth to shine forth.

We are ALL EQUAL and unless this is real eyesed, Humanity cannot and will NOT Evolve.

------------------

"We are the Music Makers. We are the Dreamers of Dreams"

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PlutoSquared
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posted April 07, 2011 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PlutoSquared     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And, to be fair...

5 Stupid, Unfair and Sexist Things Expected of Men


We know the many ways sexism hurts women. But we don't talk as much about how sexism hurts men. If you have a scrap of progressive politics in your bones, it's no surprise to you that sexism hurts women. Like, duh. That's kind of the definition of the word.

But we don't talk as much about how sexism hurts men. Understandably. When you look at the grotesque ways women are damaged by sexism -- from economic inequality to political disenfranchisement to literal, physical abuse -- it makes perfect sense that we'd care more about how sexism and patriarchy and rigid gender roles affect women, than we do about how they affect men.

But men undoubtedly get screwed up by this stuff, too. Not screwed up as badly as women, to be sure... but not trivially, either. I care about it. And I think other feminists -- and other women and men who may not see themselves as feminists -- ought to care about it, too.

I care about this stuff for a lot of reasons. I care because I have men and boys in my life, men and boys who matter to me: I see how they get twisted into knots by gender roles that are not only insanely rigid but impossibly contradictory, and it makes me sick and sad and seriously ****** off. I care because I care about justice: fair is fair, and I don't want to solve the problem of gender inequality by making things suck worse for men.

And I care for entirely pragmatic, even Machiavellian reasons. I care because I care about feminism... and I think one of the best things we can do to advance feminism is to get more men on board. If we can convince more men that sexism screws up their lives, too -- and that life shared with free and equal women is a whole lot more fun -- we're going to get a lot more men on our side. (Like the bumpersticker a friend once had on her truck: "Feminists **** Better.")

So I've been looking more carefully at the specific ways sexism hurts men. In particular, I've been looking at our society's expectations of men, our very definitions of maleness. I've been looking at how rigid and narrow many of these expectations are, creating a razor-thin window of acceptable manly behavior that you'd have to be a professional tightrope walker to navigate. (Which would be a problem, since "professional tightrope walker" is definitely outside the parameters of acceptable manliness.) I've been looking at how so many of these expectations are not only rigid, but totally contradictory, creating a vision of idealized manhood that's not just ridiculous but literally unattainable. And I've been asking the men in my life -- friends, colleagues, family members, community members, guys I know on the Internet -- what kinds of expectations they get about Being A Man and how those expectations affect them.

Here is a list of five:

1. Fight, fight, fight! When I did my informal, unscientific poll of the men in my life and asked what was expected of them as men, this one came up a lot. Like, a lot a lot. Like, an amount that took me seriously by surprise. My slice of society -- and the slice shared by most men I know -- is comfortably middle-class: educated, chatty, civilized to a fault, and mostly very peaceful. We resolve our conflicts with words, with glares, with strategies, with the law as a last resort. Even raised voices and insulting language are considered somewhat outre. Not counting sporting events, I could count on one hand the number of physical fights I've witnessed in the last decade. Or even threats of physical fights.

And yet, man after man that I talked to brought this one up. The willingness to, as my friend Michael put it, "actually, physically, with fists or other weapons, fight" -- to defend one's honor (or the honor of one's lady, or country, or sports team, or whatever) -- is more central to how men are taught to see manhood than I had any notion of. Even if conflicts never get that far -- even if you never actually have to pound anyone with your fists -- being both willing and able to do so is a weirdly high priority in the Penis Club. As Adam said, "You would rather get a concussion than be called less than a man." And Damion told me this story: "I'm in the passenger seat when my (relatively butch) sister-in-law flips off some guy in Baltimore traffic. He jumps out of the car, enraged, and my first thought is 'Great, now I've got to beat the **** out of this guy.'"

Which puts men in a nasty conundrum. The laws and expectations of our civilized society are designed to keep physical violence to a minimum. And for good reason: physical violence is, you know, destructive. So men are expected -- indeed required -- to avoid and deflect confrontation, and to resolve conflicts without resorting to violence.

And when they do, they get called pussies.

Nice.

2. Be a good husband/partner/lover -- but don't care too much what women think.

This one falls squarely into the category of "not just insanely rigid but logically contradictory" -- a damned if you do, damned if you don't conundrum that ensures a lifetime of self-conscious anxiety if you let yourself take it seriously. Being a good husband and father -- a good provider who cares for his family and treats women with respect -- is central to the male mythos. And being good in bed has become a crucial part of this mythos as well. It's no longer enough for a Real Man to nail a lot of women: he has to get every single one of them off. Performance anxiety -- it's not just for hard-ons anymore! Not that I have any problem with the idea that women's sexual pleasure ought to matter to men who have sex with them. The problem lies with the notion that women's sexual pleasure is entirely men's responsibility; that pleasing women ought to be completely instinctive; that women's satisfaction is a victory to be achieved instead of an experience to be shared; and that this satisfaction has to be accomplished entirely with the man's hard dick, and not with his hands or tongue or toys or mind. (But that's a rant for another time.)

Yet at the same time, men aren't supposed to care too much what women think. Years ago, when I was married to a man, we were trying to make some difficult decisions together about how to arrange our careers and lives (would he work full-time and maybe even overtime to help put me through grad school?). When he asked the guys he worked with for feedback and advice, he mostly got a load of derision for involving me too much in his decisions about his job. "Pussywhipped," I believe, was the charming terminology being used. Yes, he was supposed to be a good provider and build the financial foundation for our life... but he was somehow supposed to accomplish this without asking me what kind of life I wanted, and without any willingness to compromise about what kind of life he wanted. For himself, or for the two of us. I guess he was supposed to be The Decider.

Of course, while it was horribly unmanly for him to be guided by his wife, it was perfectly fine for him to be guided by the guys he worked with at the auto shop. As Scott said, the TV show "'King of Queens' is a good example, I think because though he tries to be a good husband and companion, he often finds himself in conflict with what his friends want or with his own sense of what should be considered masculine." Men's definitions of manhood are supposed to come from other men -- not from women. They're just not supposed to care all that much what women think of them.

You see this a lot in fashion advice for men. Men aren't supposed to look like dorks or slobs, of course... but they can't look like they care about their looks, either. Men -- straight men, anyway -- have to achieve that perfect, razor's edge balance between good grooming and carelessness. You're supposed to look good -- but those good looks have to seem effortless. Looking like you care how you look makes you look like a woman. Or a gay man. (More on that in a tic.) Women are supposed to be the ones prettying themselves up into objects of desire. Men are not supposed to be the objects of desire. They're supposed to be the subjects. And subjects aren't supposed to care what their objects think of them.

Except when they're trying to get those objects to come.

[facepalm]

3. Be hot to trot. Always. With anybody.

This is another expectation that came up with striking (although hardly surprising) frequency. Men are supposed to want sex -- and be ready for sex -- all the time. With pretty much anyone of the right gender who makes themselves available for it. In his evaluation of male gender roles, Michael T. says, "To be a man you must use sexual conquest as a gauge for manhood." Jraoul quoted a song, Lou Christie's "Lightning Strikes," with lyrics that go, "When I see her lips begging to be kissed, I can't stop, I can't stop myself... When I see a sign that she wants to make time, I can't stop, I can't stop myself...." And in his litany of male gender expectations, my friend Michael listed, "Have sex with any woman who says yes, or who offers herself. If not, I must be gay, right?"

It's weird. An intense, even predatory sexual desire is a big part of the Manly Man picture. And yet that picture doesn't allow for men to have preferences. Or rather: They're allowed and even expected to have preferences -- as long as those preferences conform with social norms. I vividly remember an article from a late '60s Playboy, analyzing men's personalities based on what kind of female bodies they liked: liking big breasts made you cool, while liking big butts or legs meant you were immature. And that's hardly a relic of the '60s: even today, lots of men feel pressured to date women who meet the current standards of female attractiveness. Lots of men, for instance, feel pressured to date fashionably thin women: even if they personally prefer women with more meat on their bones, they feel embarrassed introducing them to their buddies. Like dating a fat chick is a slam on their ego. Like it means they're not high enough on the primate status ladder to acquire a high-status mate.

So yes, men are allowed to be hotter for some girls than others. But they're still supposed to get it on with anything that moves and spreads its legs. Anything female and not grotesque, anyway. Men are expected to have sexual desire... but that desire can't be their own. It can't be idiosyncratic. Or even all that personal. It can't belong to them.

And for the sweet love of Loki and all the gods in Valhalla, it can't be based on emotion.

4. Stiff upper lip.

Because for men, nothing at all can be based on emotion. Generic sexual desire, and the desire to punch someone's lights out, are pretty much the only emotions men are supposed to experience. And if they have the gall (or the lack of self-control) to experience their emotions, they bloody well better not let on about it.

This one is so common, it's almost ubiquitous. At least half the men I talked to made a point about it... and a bunch of the ones who didn't mention it explicitly alluded to it in other ways. David B. says he learned that men are supposed to be "reserved emotionally. Apparently men are only supposed to be passionate about sex, cars, sports and beer. And even then, passionate is not the 'appropriate' way for a man to describe his feeling about something."

David M. got the same memo: "No whining, no complaining, and no crying." Michael T., got it, too: "To be a man you must be non emotional and disconnected." And the other Michael: "Have no emotional intelligence / don't show too many emotions." Andrew says he learned that a man "is supposed to be hard as nails and is to show no emotion." Jason learned that being a man means "not showing emotion, being 'tough' so to speak -- and that one is from peers, family and all of the above." Dean points out "the usual messages about big boys don't cry (yes, we do) and how a real man doesn't complain (yes, they do)." Scott also points to "the boys-don't-cry mantra." Ben T. says, "I hate the fact that men can't be scared of anything." James says he learned to appear emotionless so effectively that "I did not shed a single tear when my dad died during heart surgery." And Georges points out, "It always amazed me how brave I had to be to allow my feelings to show."

This one, I would argue, is more crippling than all the rest combined. I, personally, might be able to manage a life where I always had to be willing to fight or **** ; where I had to walk an impossible tightrope between caring what my partner thought without caring too much; where I had to twist myself into knots to avoid any hint that I might be attracted to people of the same sex. (See below.) But a life where I had to deny my most basic animal emotions -- love and fear, passion and grief -- just to not get treated as a gender freak? That would send me screaming 'round the bend. (More than I already am, I mean.)

5. Fear of being perceived as gay.

This is kind of a funny one. Acceptance of actual homosexuality has increased by a staggering amount in the last few decades. In less than 40 years, the LGBT rights movement has gone from fighting for our right to not be put in mental institutions and lobotomized, to fighting for our right to get legally married. (And, okay, the right to not be fired from our jobs or kicked out of the U.S. military... but still.) And social acceptance of queers has paralleled our political acceptance. If you actually are a gay man, the "Don't be even a little bit gay" message is being replaced, more and more every day, with the message, "Well... okay."

But if you're a straight man? It's a very different story. In TV shows and movies, homosexual panic is still a reliable source of comic hijinks. Wacky situations in which straight men are mistaken for gay -- Chandler and Joey on "Friends" being out together with a baby, the "Not that there's anything wrong with that" gag on "Seinfeld" -- these are a staple of modern comedy. And that staple is usually stapled to the assumption that, for straight men, being mistaken for gay is a humiliating blow to their masculinity. You see it in fashion/ dating/ etiquette advice for men, too, which often focuses to an almost hysterical degree on walking that razor- thin line between looking like an urbane, sophisticated man of the world... while still, for the sweet love of Jesus, not being mistaken for gay.

And you definitely see it in some very common male sexual fears. I've read way too many letters to way too many sex advice columns from way too many straight men saying they like -- how shall I put this delicately? -- being on the receiving end of anal pleasure... but don't want to explore this eminently delightful activity, because they're afraid it means they're gay. Or because their female partners are afraid it means they're gay. (Somewhat testy note to straight men and their female partners: No, it doesn't. Wanting a woman to **** you in the ass does not make you gay. Any more than wanting a woman to suck your **** does. Please.)

Now, I will say that these attitudes are beginning to change. The advances of the LGBT movement have freed things up for straights as well as queers, and the younger generation is a lot more fluid and casual about sexual orientation than mine ever was. As my friend Ben pointed out, "The loosening of roles that accompanied feminism and the gay rights movement probably benefited straight men at least as much as it did women and gay men... Witness metrosexuality: now that being mistaken for gay isn't a disaster, men have more fashion leeway." And Adam, who describes himself as "effeminate, though heterosexual," says that being assumed to be gay "gave me a pass on some of the more restrictive rules of masculinity. After all, nobody really bothered to tell me to 'man up' when I sounded 'fruity' anyway."

But at the same time, as gay visibility has increased, the likelihood of being mistaken for gay has gone way, way up. And as a result, the number of opportunities for anxious, gay-panic freakouts has gone up as well. Being mistaken for gay isn't as disastrous as it once was -- it's more of a laugh line and less of a petrifying threat -- but it also happens a lot more often. And the anxiety it still creates for a lot of straight men is a lot more constant... even if it isn't as severe.

So What Now?

And I've just barely started. I don't have nearly enough space here to write the full-length novel I could write on this subject. I've skipped some of the biggest and most important gender expectations of men: the expectations of competition, of status consciousness, of financial success, strength and athleticism, leadership skills, mechanical skills, easy erectile functionality, a dehumanizing attitude towards women, giving a crap about sports. Heck, men get a clear social message that, in order to be manly, they have to be tall. What the heck are you supposed to do about that?

What the heck are any of us supposed to do about any of this?

Well, having unloaded all this depressing crap, I think it's important to deliver some good news: There are ways out of this, and around it, and through it. A lot of men I talked about this said that yes, they were certainly aware of the rigid expectations held of them as men... but they didn't personally feel hugely constrained by them. Sure, they were aware of these expectations. But they also felt comfortable rejecting them. Or embracing the parts they liked, and rejecting the parts they didn't. Or subverting them, in creative and fun and sexy ways.

And many men pointed out that, while they're certainly getting a super-sized serving of narrow, stupid cultural messages about How To Be A Man, they're also getting a decent helping of smarter, broader messages about Not Listening To That Stupid **** . Plenty of men have gotten spiffy, role-modely lessons and examples about being non-violent, respectful of women, emotionally honest, sexually honest, and just generally their own best selves... from sources ranging from pop culture icons to their own fathers and mothers. As jraoul pointed out, "Do I think men are given rigid and/or narrow expectations about maleness? Well, sure! And we are also given fluid and/or wide ones. Depends on who's doing the giving."

Admittedly, because of my own personality and proclivities, the men in my life tend to be -- how shall we put this? -- outside the mainstream of conventional American society. ("Big nerdy pinko freaks" would be another way to put it.) And a lot of them are gay or bi, which skews the sampling even more. But just like lots of feminist women are able to laugh off the sitcoms and billboards and women's magazines and live however the frack we want, lots of feminist men are able to unload the John Wayne/Cary Grant/"What kind of man reads Playboy" crap they got loaded with -- or, depending on their generation, the Rambo/Tom Cruise/Maxim magazine crap -- and just get on with their lives.

Different people feel more affected by gender expectations than others. Some of us -- women and men alike -- still hear these voices in the back of our heads, still feel them shaping our reflexes, still see a need to consciously drag these messages into the light so we know how to recognize them and have an easier time tossing them overboard. And some folks -- again, both women and men -- feel like this is really not that big a deal. Yes, they say, society wants men to be one way and women to be another. Who cares what society wants? For some people, it takes years of introspection and therapy and processing to unload this junk. Some people never unlearn it, in fact; some people let their whole lives be run by it. And other people seem to unload it just by deciding to do it.

So I don't know what to tell you about how to do that.

All I can tell you is that it's totally worth it.

Thanks to Adam, Alan, Andrew, Ben, Other Ben, Chad, Christopher, Craig, Crypt, Damion, Darren, David, Other David, Still Other David, Yet Still Another David, And Yet One More David, Dean, Georges, Glendon, Jacob, James, Other James, Jason, Jeff, Joel, jraoul, Kyle, Lauro, Lenny, Leo, Mark, Michael, Other Michael, Still Other Michael, Scott, Other Scott, Still Other Scott, Sean, Anonymous, and everyone else I talked to, for their invaluable help with this piece.
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/147626/5_stupid,_unfair_and_sexist_things_expected_of_men/?page=entire

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PlutoSquared
Knowflake

Posts: 4371
From: Mars
Registered: Aug 2010

posted April 07, 2011 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PlutoSquared     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for the compliment, Chaldean. And, I really like what you said here...

Conversely, my thoughts turn to parenthood and how we raise our children....
I often thought that if we were were to make such changes in humanity and restore the respect, honor and glory of the Feminine Power; our parenting should be constructed in ways that allow Mothers to nurture this respect in boys, so as to ensure their perceptions of Women are wholesome and reciprocal on all levels.

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Ami Anne
Moderator

Posts: 10727
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010

posted April 07, 2011 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wavelink:
Wow...

I live in many hours difference from the time displayed on the forum...

anyways


Awww
Well, the sentiment is there,anyway

------------------
Life is lived in the sand box.

He who controls his Spirit is greater than he who controls a city
Proverbs

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