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Author Topic:   imagine
Venus
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posted November 20, 2012 08:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
imagine that you don't have a country. or in other words that you don't belong to one, you don't have a citizenship to anywhere. a fallen bird. nowhere to call home.. how would it feel like?

more importantly is it fair that some people exist this way?

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PixieJane
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posted November 20, 2012 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have some experience with that, in a manner of speaking.

The government schools, the courts, and the like were never much of a friend of mine and I came to see them as the enemy...an apathetic enemy (as opposed to actually being after me) but they certainly were not my friend and I could expect no help or comfort or justice from them and generally speaking I expected them to make my life worse instead of better (nothing personal against me, that's just the way it was). The one group that sought justice on my behalf and kept me safe from enemies was a group of anarchist punks (not that they were recognized as part of the system, and as they flamboyantly defied the said system they did have to put up with a lot more harassment whereas I was content to hide & avoid encounters with the police, courts, etc). And then back in school, placed in a behavior program, having crap dumped on me by the school made possible because of Janet Reno and Gov. Bush (TX), and then threatened with a fate I literally considered worse than death by the school (thanks to a law Gov. Bush got passed) I ran, caught rides to CA when I was 16.

And then a predator, knowing I was a runaway (and thus a criminal by definition) tore me apart bad and obviously intended to kill me. I got away badly injured but I didn't go to the hospital because I knew they'd call the cops and I'd be sent back to TX (illegal aliens can use a hospital with less risk than an American runaway kid). I didn't report my abductor to the cops for the same reason. I had no government to go to, and viewed the government as an enemy (and they viewed me as a criminal for refusing to submit), and I still feared them sending me back to TX more than being captured by that predator, and so I thumbed north.

Long story short I was taken in by people who were also not accepting of government authority. And while I had sanctuary I was painfully aware that I needed to avoid police scrutiny as I had no documents, no ID (nor did the ones claiming to be related to me have proof, it was pure bluff, and one of them, btw, also refused to keep ID, security card, etc). I even took to carrying a gun though at the time it was illegal due to my age (many adults who likely could've gained a permit refused to even consider getting one for various reasons before they carried). It's complicated to explain what it was like for us, but we had a tendency to get along as no matter how much individuals and groups might dislike others we all had an enemy bigger than us all: government.

The TV show Firefly catches the attitude very well.

I like to think my independence made me stronger for the experience. But it has affected my worldview. For example, many worship soldiers for "defending our freedoms" but I know being free doesn't come from the military (who enforce the government and beholden to politicians they're actually more inclined to protect special interests like big business at the expense of the American people, and btw you might be surprised how little I care what language I was raised to speak), nor does it come from voting (it helps under the right circumstances, but it's often counterproductive and people like Hitler became empowered through democracy as well). I agree that freedom isn't free, but where I disagree with others is that I say it's not given to us by politicians or soldiers, it's SEIZED for one's self, and in defiance of the government (and thus politicians, cops, soldiers), and also comes from within...IOW, I thank myself for my freedoms, and I think most everyone should do the same (though I could share a caveat about strict pacifists generally being dependent on others willing to do violence on their behalf for them to exist in peace...). If I'm gonna thank anyone else (other than kindred spirits who helped) then it would be social activists, like those women battered, imprisoned, and tortured to help women gain equality in the system as an example (just how vile our government treated those women is glossed over today, but some suffered extreme abuse over it). That is I'd thank those who defied the government to give us more civil liberties than people fighting wars so big business can profit.

Of course I'm enfranchised now, but I haven't forgotten what it's like...or lost my distrust of the government. I even keep a BOB (bug out bag), not only in case of natural disaster but...just in case I need to disappear.

As for if it's fair...well a few WANT to live that way and I say more power to them. But anybody should be enfranchised if they so wish...or be left alone off the grid if that's their preference, too. I wish when I was a runaway that it would've been legal for me to seek the same type of aid as an adult (at least a private shelter without having the cops called on us, turned over to social services, etc). But really, that's not going to ever happen so I don't see a point in griping over it anymore than griping over hurricanes, earthquakes, or fire ants. (Now planning on how to get through it and outsmart your tormenters is another matter...)

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Venus
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posted November 21, 2012 01:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PixieJane Iím in constant awe around you!

Although it strays away a bit from my OP i want to admit that i have deep respect for anarchists, the nonviolent ones of course. we consider ourselves to be autonomous, but in truth we are guided every step of our life. Freedom, is itself a big issue and usually i refuse to even discuss freedom unless a clear definition of what you mean by freedom is laid down. Personally i don't think the government or authorities can limit my freedom. imo, they can throw me in jail or threaten to cut my throat they can imprison my body but not my mind. social values, imo, are what threaten my personal freedom. Beliefs that are carved in my brain without my consent that control my every move. But in reality how can we be truly free if we are social beings?? Even social animals have restricted freedoms.

Getting back to my original topic, when you didn't have an id or any proof of who you are or where you come from didn't it limit your capabilities? Also my main concern is people who do not have the option of belonging to a country. as in, by birth they don't have that right. They are considered aliens in their homes. They could be victims of war or abandoned children..

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PixieJane
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posted November 21, 2012 04:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^^

Without my papers it was hard, though once people I believed I was with relatives then I was mostly left alone (had the cops investigated they'd have likely figured out soon enough that I wasn't who I said I was, however, which motivated me to be extra careful not to draw their attention). Luckily I didn't ever need a hospital as that could've blown my cover.

My arrangements were made off the grid (and I started unschooling instead of going to school) and the jobs I worked for money were under the table. When I was 18 I became able to order a copy of my birth certificate without fear of being returned to TX.

And as a runaway in Houston at 15 (when those anarchist punks came to my defense) I was forced to turn to crime to survive. Of course I was a criminal simply for being a runaway in the first place. Granted, that was my age, but without any form of documentation an adult would be in the same boat as I was (neither able to get welfare or a job and even many private charities & shelters demand ID, and any cop who felt like it could arrest the person simply for being there, in my case for being underage and on my own, the stateless person as an illegal alien, since without documents they couldn't be here legally). That said, it's not that hard to get a fake ID (I'm thinking the pimps must've gotten them for the underage girls in their stables) though there's risk involved in using the black market.

But I do believe the UN (and thus most countries entangled with it, such as Canada) do have ways of handling "stateless" citizens who want to be citizens. I looked into all that years ago, but as it was like 10 years ago and I was actually more interested in learning how to be an expat (if I must) so I can't recall any details...just that I came across protocols for that, at least if you were in any danger from the government you were under (which presumably stateless individuals are, unless they made themselves stateless).

There are the PTs which I might consider becoming if I ever got a lot of money (probably all that Sag energy I have, plus it reminds me of living like Pippi on the seas with her dad ):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_tourist

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Mblake81
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posted November 21, 2012 06:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Venus:
imagine that you don't have countries, or in other words that you don't belong to one, there is no need to have a citizenship anywhere. a fallen bird. nowhere to call home.. how would it feel like?

more importantly is it fair that some people exist this way?


imagine that you don't a country. In other words that you don't belong to one, you are a citizen of the earth, whole thing. a free bird. Anywhere to call home.. how would it feel like? (let's go flying)

more importantly is it fair that some people exist this way? (depends, I think it would be nice to be able to move about freely.)

Man created the lines on the globe. (My Dirt, Your Dirt, else we fight about it!)

Having some sort of pride in the planet > Having pride in just one particular piece of it's dirt. *shrugs*

:Crosseyes:

Derp, Earthlings.

The artificial lines do keep cultures,races etc in place, for a time.



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Randall
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posted November 22, 2012 06:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great string.

------------------
"Fall down 100 times, get up 101...this is success." --ME

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Mblake81
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posted November 23, 2012 03:41 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Great string.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwxc_zLH560

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Venus
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posted November 23, 2012 04:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mblake81:

Man created the lines on the globe. (My Dirt, Your Dirt, else we fight about it!)

Having some sort of pride in the planet > Having pride in just one particular piece of it's dirt. *shrugs*


yes Mitch you gotz a point imaginary lines been the cause of many ongoing disputes. but tell you what, in the circumstance that these lines do exist (as everyone but you and me seem to believe) is it fair to be denied the right to "belong".

and when you don't have proper identification you can't quite move around easily. you can't find decent jobs. NGOs will help around sure. but that's just a band aide, these situations need a permanent solution.

a lot of my friends (Palestinians) have problems finding jobs, traveling etc.. not to mention the emotional damage of being marginalized.

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Mblake81
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posted November 25, 2012 04:16 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I understand what you mean.

I am just pointing, saying, it could be better.

By definition,

Man creates everything here, all the systems, all the methods.

If man is having all these problems, naturally, he will seek a solution.

..even if it starts with dreams.

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Randall
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posted November 26, 2012 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

------------------
"Fall down 100 times, get up 101...this is success." --ME

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juniperb
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posted November 26, 2012 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It`s a very humbling thought

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We need to listen to our own song, and share it with others, but not force it on them. Our songs are different. They should be in harmony with each other. ~ Mattie Stepanek

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Venus
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posted November 27, 2012 02:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mblake81:

I am just pointing, saying, it could be better.

..even if it starts with dreams.


i agree..

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Randall
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posted January 07, 2013 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agreed.

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juniperb
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posted July 28, 2013 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
John Lennon had a fantastic imagine-ation.

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Christian, Jew, Muslim, Shaman, Zoroastrian, stone, ground, mountain, river, each has a secret way of being with the Mystery, unique and not to be judged.
Rumi

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Randall
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posted July 29, 2013 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Venus
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posted April 03, 2014 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dammit i miss this :')

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Randall
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posted April 09, 2014 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Randall
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posted April 10, 2014 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Come around more!

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Randall
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posted May 07, 2014 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Randall
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posted May 08, 2014 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Randall
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posted June 03, 2014 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MARCO!

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Randall
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posted October 01, 2014 10:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another great Venus thread.

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Venus
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posted November 05, 2014 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randall how awesome are you that you remembered me exactly one day before my birthday?!!! (your last reply to his thread is on Oct 1, my birthday was on the 2nd).

A little more on the topic, although maybe in a different context.

I'm sure you've all heard of the Syrian crisis. Millions of Syrians have fled their homes due to the raging civil war and many of them are now what some like to call "displaced" as if they're someone's missing remote or car keys. Anyway Syrian refugees have been flooding into Lebanon since the beginning of the war and now are estimated to be over 1million in Lebanon alone (probably understated). The thing is many Lebanese are complaining heavily about this influx of refugees, especially since the entire Lebanese population is merely 4million something. They claim that the refugees are draining our resources and are potentially a threat to our infrastructure and health (first case of Polio and probably other contagious diseases have emerged).
What would you say regarding these concerns. What can be done? keep in mind Lebanon has it's own share of problems, not to mention a rattled infrastructure that surely was not made to handle this massive influx. But then again who are we to stop them? Where else are they supposed to go? The Mediterranean Sea?

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Venus
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posted November 07, 2014 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

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Randall
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posted November 07, 2014 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hope you had a great bday!

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