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Author Topic:   Conversation with Heart-Shaped Cross
Faith
Knowflake

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posted April 13, 2013 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Coming soon to this thread (I think)!

PS I won't be around tomorrow but hope to see you Monday. Enjoy your Sabbath

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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posted April 14, 2013 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Beautiful song, thank you.

You can delete that info now.

Will respond soon.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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posted April 14, 2013 05:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Religion is important because dreams are important.

Religion is the infusion of life with a tremendous dream.

Valus

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Faith
Knowflake

Posts: 4485
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posted April 15, 2013 07:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for meeting me here!

You're a great writer, I appreciate the link. Of course, as we don't see eye to eye about religion, it's hard for me to read all of that and comment...I disagree with or have questions about many of the assumptions in your writing, though I love your eloquence.

As I see it, religion also does much harm.

For example, I believe that telling children about hell is tantamount to child abuse in some cases. They are too petrified to sleep and have no peace of mind. I've had personal experiences with this, unfortunately.

And then you think of all the excommunications and estrangements arising from religion. Is "the dream" really worth it?

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 229
From:
Registered: Nov 2010

posted April 17, 2013 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Thanks for meeting me here!

Sorry I'm late.

quote:
You're a great writer, I appreciate the link. Of course, as we don't see eye to eye about religion, it's hard for me to read all of that and comment...I disagree with or have questions about many of the assumptions in your writing, though I love your eloquence.

I appreciate that. It's good that you have questions. That's sort of the point, in a way. I don't entirely agree with everything I write either. Not for long anyway. But, then, we can only indicate one or two dimensions at any time. Aphorisms, especially, are not intended to be taken as unequivocally as they sound. They are intended to suggest a point of view, which may provide a corrective against an opposite excess. It helps to know when to prescribe them, and when not to. It may be dangerous to make an entire pharmacy available without prescriptions, but what can I say? I'm dangerous.

quote:
As I see it, religion also does much harm. For example, I believe that telling children about hell is tantamount to child abuse in some cases. They are too petrified to sleep and have no peace of mind. I've had personal experiences with this, unfortunately.

Naturally. But then, we wouldn't tell children about rape and torture either, would we?

quote:
And then you think of all the excommunications and estrangements arising from religion. Is "the dream" really worth it?

Sounds more like a nightmare, and one we are both trying to correct. You try to wake them up, and I enter the nightmare in order to turn the tide. They are some deep sleepers, after all, and my sense is that it may be easier to let them sleep, and to share more beautiful dreams.

quote:
I drew up your chart, your Mercury is conjunct my Venus, fancy that!

Yes, that helps balance out your mars opposing my Neptune. I see a lot of aspects, a number of them either exact or off by one degree.

quote:
No,... if I say I believe in Jesus. Anything is possible with people, you know?

Hmmm... you have a point.

I think we both forgot that it's mine.

quote:
Acts 13:48 ESV
Whoever isn't appointed has hell to pay.

The KJV says "ordained", not appointed, but I don't know the Greek. I think one could easily argue that a person who is ready to see is ordained, or appointed. It doesn't necessarily mean that God is arbitrarily deciding our fates. It just means that we are not all equally mature. Perhaps "Hell" is a phase of spiritual adolescence, through which all those ordained to "eternal life" have passed.

quote:
Then why use the word Christ?

Why not use it?
If one is truly unattached,
then one is not attached to unattachment.
One makes use of what is there.

Plotinus wrote:
Leave the many,
Find the One, --
having found the One,
embrace the many as the One.

People like to forget that second part. We all want to leave the worldly, and cling to what is highest and most pure, but leaving the darkness and cleaving to the light is only the first half of the journey. Coming full circle means bringing the light back into the darkness and illuminating it.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 229
From:
Registered: Nov 2010

posted April 17, 2013 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
"the finer points of doctrine"
Which gave rise to violence.

Not so. Spiritual immaturity gave rise to violence. If men quarrel over a broom, is the broom unfit for sweeping? Foolish and wicked people have always quarreled, and will always find an excuse to quarrel. They have the words before them of a man they believe to be God, telling them in no uncertain terms:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also... Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you,"

Yet, they still seek to justify war and hatred and torture. Take away everything from the Bible except these words, and they will still find a way to twist and add to them. It is the nature of wickedness and stupidity. Every ideology can be distorted. In many ways, it is a political problem, disguised as a religious one. The Communists were avowed atheists, whose ideology arose out of a simple and beautiful idea about not allowing greed to rule the world, -- but that didn't stop them from killing more people than the Nazis. As much as I find myself drawn to anarchist principles, it seems to me that wicked men will always take power when good men refuse to. All our governments arose out of primordial anarchy, and would do it again and again. One can argue that abolishing governments would at least provide us with a clean slate, a new beginning, but I think it's more likely we would be right back where we started. "If you are going through Hell, keep going" (Churchill)

quote:
...they either excommunicate me or pester me for a confession of faith... with a very non-persuasive theology, no less. They seem to put too much importance on the redemptive potential of "easy believism."

Yes, they do. They have a very poor grasp of the doctrine of grace. They think it means that if one believes then one is forgiven, and the only thing left is to shame and judge others until they believe and are forgiven, too. In fact, it means that if one is forgiven one will believe and be inspired to forgive. The idea is that everyone is loved and forgiven, automatically, -- no confession of faith is required, -- and, that this love and forgiveness, rather than giving them a license to "sin", will naturally inspire them to love and forgive others.

Christ said to a woman caught in adultery, "Where are your accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?" They had all dispersed, so she said, "No man, Lord." And he said "Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more." She made no confession, she admitted no fault. She addressed him with a title of respect, but she did not receive him as "her personal Lord and Savior" or anything like that. Still, he forgave her.

He told the Pharisees that the more sins a person has, the more they will love you if you forgive them. The next moment, a woman who had many sins washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, and he said "Your sins are forgiven." She made no confession. She didn't call him "The Son of God". She didn't have to.

Some people you will never get through to, but others will listen when you quote their holy book. You can meet them half way. You can meet them somewhere between the dream and the nightmare. Then you can lead them out.

quote:
I can't stomach Billy Graham.

I don't blame you. It takes a strong stomach.

quote:
See how we are in the same boat?
Just speaking different languages...

Again, you're making my point.

The only difference is that I'm bi-lingual, and can help to translate, so each of you can understand the other a little better. Of course, if they only knew their own language well enough, they'd be translators, too.

quote:

Wow, cool notebooks. Thanks for liking my moon. It's in the 8H.

Thanks, they are pretty cool.
Not as cool as a Pisces Moon in the 8th, tho.

quote:
Why spend time focusing on the less than pure, except for mere entertainment?

Did Christ incarnate for entertainment? Was it for entertainment that the bodhisattvas turned back at the gates of Nirvana, vowing not to enter until all souls were free?

quote:
Is there a difference between a "real" Christian and a theologian who behaves well?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.
Can you rephrase your question, please?

quote:
I guess my Aries energy is evident here.

The closest aspect in my chart:

Sun 13°54' in Scorpio
Eris 13°53' in ARIES

I feel pretty in-tune with that one lately.

quote:
Thank you, too, for the interesting conversation.

Any time.

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Faith
Knowflake

Posts: 4485
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted April 18, 2013 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
People like to forget that second part. We all want to leave the worldly, and cling to what is highest and most pure, but leaving the darkness and cleaving to the light is only the first half of the journey. Coming full circle means bringing the light back into the darkness and illuminating it.

I love that. Much more to say but I'm short on time...'will try and get back to you in the next few days.

Thanks.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 229
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Registered: Nov 2010

posted April 18, 2013 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/219231.html

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Faith
Knowflake

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Registered: Jul 2011

posted April 19, 2013 06:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^ Interesting, too!

Well, thanks for getting back to me. I get to exercise my brain, trying to think of how to respond to your puzzles. Maybe my IQ will increase from this chit chat!

quote:
Aphorisms, especially, are not intended to be taken as unequivocally as they sound. They are intended to suggest a point of view, which may provide a corrective against an opposite excess.

I can see how that's often the case...good point.

quote:
Naturally. But then, we wouldn't tell children about rape and torture either, would we?

What does it say about a religion that it's rated R? "Suffer the children to come unto me." What's that mean, then?

quote:
Sounds more like a nightmare, and one we are both trying to correct. You try to wake them up, and I enter the nightmare in order to turn the tide.

I wouldn't describe my interactions that way. I ask religious people a lot of questions...it's like the Socratic method, only it's not a method. In doing so I reveal a lot about the path I've walked and, maybe, I make a case for the non-believer. But I think it would be haughty of me to regard others as people who need "correction." Maybe just that wording rubs me the wrong way.

quote:
I think one could easily argue that a person who is ready to see is ordained, or appointed.

I take it you're not familiar with the Westminster Confession of Faith? One could easily argue that, but their argument would not be Scriptural, insofar as the Scripture repeatedly speaks of election. And to me this is a critical issue: if the God of the Bible predestines some to heaven and others to hell (and I firmly believe that,) then you have to wonder, "Why? What kind of God creates people knowing they will suffer eternally?"

quote:
Perhaps "Hell" is a phase of spiritual adolescence, through which all those ordained to "eternal life" have passed.

Honestly, I don't see the point of picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to take very seriously, and which to be dismissive about. Burning in a lake of fire eternally cannot be a "phase." There's a point where interpretations are so liberally that they are not substantially different from pure fiction...and I think that if one is devoting one's life to pure fiction, that is a wasted life.

quote:
Why not use it?

It might displease the other gods, for one thing.

Have you played Pascal's Roulette?

quote:
If men quarrel over a broom, is the broom unfit for sweeping?

If the broom had become a god to the people, and then made all the decrees that God did, about who should be spared and who should be killed, then yes, it is unfit.

quote:
Yet, they still seek to justify war and hatred and torture. Take away everything from the Bible except these words, and they will still find a way to twist and add to them. It is the nature of wickedness and stupidity.

I think it's a combination of human nature and the contradictory nature of the Bible. At certain times and places, the Chosen were commanded to pillage and destroy.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -Psalm 137:9

That's "happy" for ya!

quote:
As much as I find myself drawn to anarchist principles, it seems to me that wicked men will always take power when good men refuse to.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's not about good men seizing leadership but about the people choosing who they will submit to. And most won't submit except through the threat of force, except when they are all unified by a truly spiritual aim...how often does that happen? Maybe Gandhi's revolution was like that.

More to come...

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Faith
Knowflake

Posts: 4485
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted April 19, 2013 07:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
They have a very poor grasp of the doctrine of grace. They think it means that if one believes then one is forgiven, and the only thing left is to shame and judge others until they believe and are forgiven, too. In fact, it means that if one is forgiven one will believe and be inspired to forgive.

I think the doctrine of grace doesn't exist in reality, so there's nothing to have a grasp of. All you have is more or less convincing theoretical construct, depending on how many Bible verses you can dredge up to support the premise of your choice.

Romans 9:8 They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the achildren of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

^This tells me I am not necessarily forgiven.

And do I even want forgiveness? Forgiveness for what? If I think of all people are interconnected, then all sin is communal. I wouldn't have made certain choices if not for bad choices others made, and sometimes being put in a situation where the path was not clear. Was there a good path and a bad path?

Without a religious framework, moral absolutes tend to fall apart.

quote:
The only difference is that I'm bi-lingual, and can help to translate, so each of you can understand the other a little better. Of course, if they only knew their own language well enough, they'd be translators, too.

Bi-lingual in what respect?

quote:
Did Christ incarnate for entertainment?

Did Christ incarnate?

quote:
Is there a difference between a "real" Christian and a theologian who behaves well?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.
Can you rephrase your question, please?


What are the criteria you would use to determine whether or not a person is a real Christian? Is having a brain full of Bible enough? Or does there have to be an emotional interaction with that storehouse of knowledge? Obviously one cannot be a Christian without words. To honor a nameless Supreme Being cannot be construed as a form of Christianity.

What does "being a Christian" entail, in your opinion?

Cheers, have a good day.

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Randall
Webmaster

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From: Saturn next to Charmainec
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posted April 19, 2013 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This isn't so much a shout-out string as it is a religious one, so moving it to DD.

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