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Author Topic:   Technical Issues When Casting the Composite – Any Expert Opinions?
Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 06:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Such an amazing thread, Vajra!

It raises so many interesting questions, that I have to think about, but as a first input:

- the reason to first consider the proximal midpoint in a composite is that when you have two objects on a circle moving around a center, like on an orbit, and these two objects - for example two astronomical bodies - are magnetically attracted to each other (such as the two fellows making a composite should be), they will always follow the shortest route to converge and unite. Actually, the shortest physical route of two objects being magnetically attracted to each other would be the straight line between them, but we are using an abstract configuration which is the zodiacal circle (although in astronomy there is no circle, it can only be an eliptic orbit around the Earth), but we're using this theoretical construct which is the circle and we assume everything happens on this circle and the objects can never leave this metaphorical orbit, they always move on this circle (like beads on a rigid wire circle). In this case, they will follow the shortest route to converge.

to be continued

BTW, I wasn't aware astro uses those midpoints randomly in certain composites, thanks for that. I thought they always use the proximal mdp. I noticed however, that in many of their charts in the extended section, those personalized, a certain technique, my comp Venus is on the DSC instead of the ASC.

I also noticed the Davison chart often has the placements or angles in the opposite sign compared to the composite and I wondered if this is related to the same issue. My work with Davison charts is rather new. Does anyone know why this happens?

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LucieLemonade
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posted September 18, 2014 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LucieLemonade     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:

I also noticed the Davison chart often has the placements or angles in the opposite sign compared to the composite and I wondered if this is related to the same issue. My work with Davison charts is rather new. Does anyone know why this happens?


I am way new to this but I had issue with the composite in general. Not sure why as I don't quite know enough. It's just in my personal experience it hasn't really played out that way. Especially the idea of the ASC as how people see "us" as a couple. But this is an interesting thread anyway, to add to both my knowledge AND confusion.

As for the flipped ASC/DSC in Davison vs regular composite, I noticed this only with people born in opposite hemispheres in the Davison it flips. Is that same with what you're seeing?

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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LucieLemonade:
I way new to this but I had issue with the composite in general. Not sure why as I don't quite know enough. It's just in my personal experience it hasn't really played out that way. Especially the idea of the ASC as how people see "us" as a couple. But this is an interesting thread anyway, to add to both my knowledge AND confusion.

As for the flipped ASC/DSC in Davison vs regular composite, I noticed this only with people born in opposite hemispheres in the Davison it flips. Is that same with what you're seeing?


No, not really, we are born 50 km apart, and for the rest of the cases, the location is pretty random. Its not only the ASC/DSC, sometimes planets as well. For example, in my Davison, Venus moves from Scorp to Taurus, MC from Pisces to Virgo. Actually, it seems very common to see opposed placements in Davison. Why?

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LucieLemonade
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posted September 18, 2014 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LucieLemonade     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
No, not really, we are born 50 km apart, and for the rest of the cases, the location is pretty random. Its not only the ASC/DSC, sometimes planets as well. For example, in my Davison, Venus moves from Scorp to Taurus, MC from Pisces to Virgo. Actually, it seems very common to see opposed placements in Davison. Why?

Oh, nothing! I just noticed that those born in the same hemisphere as me don't switch the A/D. But with the one that was born in the antipodes our Davison A/D switches.

My sample size is exactly three though! Not exactly scientific!

And yes. Some planets move like on the other thread, Uranus goes from being conj sun to opposite sun.

I'll be quiet & sit back and listen now!

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Ceridwen
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posted September 18, 2014 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It has to do with people been born apart a certain amount of years (never now if an regular or irregular number - I think though it was an irregular, like 5, 7, 3 and so on), then the Davison Sun usually/ often comes up in the oposing sign and hence do Mercury and Venus.

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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It has to with a number, it makes sense, Ceri. But maybe months or weeks as well? We are born exactly 6 months apart.
Mercury moved randomly, from Sag to Cancer, Sun remains in Gem, only Venus and MC/IC are in the opposed sign.

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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vajra:
Hmm…sometimes, but I have also seen examples where there is no relation between the placements whatsoever. Here is one example of me with a man 7 years my senior, same birth place:

Comp. AC/DC axis @ 6 Pisces/Virgo
Davison AC/DC axis @ 25 Cappy/Cancer

Comp. MC/IC axis @ 26 Scorpio/Taurus
Davison MC/IC axis @1 Sagittarius/Gemini

Comp. Sun @ 5 Taurus
Davison Sun @2 Scorpio


But the Sun is in the opposed sign, almost on the same degree

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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 09:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 10:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vajra:
Yes, the Sun is always very nearly the same (or opposed). But that makes sense because the Davison is an actual point in time exactly in the middle of two other points in time, and since the movement of the Sun through the Zodiac is an absolutely linear process, it is not astonishing that the actual midpoint in time would be (almost) perfectly in accord in both methods.

But the angles, IMO, from what I've seen, have no such automatic relation with each other.

Here's another one, age difference is 28 years, same birth place:

Comp. AC/DC axis @ 16 Virgo/Pisces
Davison AC/DC axis @ 14 Aquarius/Leo

Comp. MC/IC axis @ 8 Gemini/Sag
Davison MC/IC axis @ 12 Sag/Gemini

Comp. Sun @ 12 Leo, Davison Sun at 12 Leo (as expected)


There is a relation here as well, apart from the reversal with MC/IC: the ASC/DSC is in the next sign, something I noticed also; it's not exactly random. But I guess this is a good explanation: it's either the replication of a certain number between the birth dates, or the fact that the astronomical midpoint coincides or is on the same axis or near the same axis as in the terrestrial plane (the midpoint between two birth times and two locations), so I suppose we shouldn't read too much into it, right??

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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 10:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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LucieLemonade
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posted September 18, 2014 10:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LucieLemonade     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok. I've been thinking about this for a bit... And maybe this is out of the scope of this thread and consider this is a newbie's point of view.... the reason I've been a bit meh about composites is just as you say things change sometimes more than others.

If you don't like the composite, hey, grab a Davison!

This extends a bit to my thinking in general about astrology. I'm learning on a basic level, tropical, Pladius, etc.

But then I keep reading about Vedic, Draco, equal houses, etc and I start to think... Hmmm, don't like your Venus in the 12th? No problem... Just use the whole sign chart. Don't like being a Scorpio rising, no problem use Vedic, etc. Don't like your near mid-point? Flip it to the far mid-point... See my problem? Maybe this is a question for a different thread. But how do we deal with so much inconsistency?

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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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LucieLemonade
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posted September 18, 2014 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LucieLemonade     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to open a can of worms!

As the late, great Yul Brynner once said: "tis a puzzlement".

I do have my preferences so far, and that is including the "composite" type chart realm, the Davison. In my brain it makes more sense that there is a real point on earth. But... That might change.

Let's see if others can help us with the near vs far mid point question. That one is a tricky one.

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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 11:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, it's unclear, an astronomer and/or mathematician would clear it out for us. But it does take us back to your original
question. And your question relates a lot to my research and how I do things, namely the importance of the Cross in solid relationships.

The Cross is mainly a composition of two oppositions, the square is a secondary construction of the Cross, in the sense
that when you built a square (the mathematical figure) you first choose two axes that you align perpendicularly (the
actual cross), then you build the square by uniting the fours points. Of course, you can build a square by choosing a
segment and rising a perpendicular, but it is the "blind" method of building a square.

The astrological importance of the Cross in relationships comes first from the major importance of the opposition in
relationships, because it is symbolic for the Yin/Yang principle. No wonder a Yin/Yang relationship without any
opposition is very rare. The second major importance comes from the fact that the Cross (hence the two astrological
aspects: opposition and square) seem to be the symbol of actual manifestation in the physical plane, of incarnation in a
material form. A very good example is my charts in Cappy's thread: a perfect GT is actually rather rare, it shows a
steady emotional/psychological flow. Another significance of the GT is a mission of the couple, of the relationship: so it's
very likely when the mission is completed, such a relationship reaches its purpose and it ends. No wonder Jupiter, ruler
of the 8th house, is the rudder of the nodal axis. I hope Next to Neptune and Starmoon see the charts to see that soft
aspects and conjunctions are no guarantees for long-term, strong relationships. There are only soft aspects in those
charts, apart from 3 generational squares and conjunctions Sun/Venus, Mars/Moon, Mercury/Neptune, Juno/Jupiter,
Vertex/DSC exact, Vertex/NN (2), Sun/Moon, all under 2 degrees- they all show, and the easiness of the chart, a relationship is unavoidable or almost impossible to avoid. The relationship had a mission, that's true (mission accomplished BTW hahaha) but
because of the lack of hard aspects, despite the perfect emotional/psychological connection (which in my view is related
to trines and sextiles, they mainly show our psychological, inner dimension - they are mental and psychological attributes), made it impossible for tangible things to happen, for these two people to actually do things
together: and it is true, we did three projects together (an art festival, an exhibition, an arts house) and it was a mess: we
simply coudln't do things together. We could talk for hours, listen to music, dance, stare in each other's eyes, but everytime we
tried to live together and do things together, it was impossible.

So it makes sense to look at the actual Cross and cross-related aspects if you want something tangible, which means the opposition, the axis prevails,
rather than the sign itself. No wonder we have angles on an axis, we don't look at ASC only, we look at the axis
(ASC/DSC), we don't have MC only, we look at the axis MC/IC. Whatever happens on one end, it influences the other. I think the same goes with the rest of the houses, we
look at the 2nd/8th axis etc.

I suppose the far midpoint is another look at the same thing. The aspects will be the same, the planets/angles will move in
their opposite sign: the couple will not have the Sun in Scorpio, they have the Sun in Scorpio/Taurus. I think people on
our midpoints, in the natal integrate that axis for us; perhaps the door is the near mdp, but the result is an integration on
an axis. So extrapolating to composites, a relationship enters the union through the Scorpio door, but the result is the
integration of the Scorpio/Taurus axis, and most likely, issues related to the Fixed Cross. There will be other influences in the chart related
to the Fixed Cross.


The question still remains: how does the far mdp manifests? Is it like a shadow, like a duad? Does it come into play later?

How do you think the far mdp manifests in the natal?

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Ceridwen
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posted September 18, 2014 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LucieLemonade:
Ok. I've been thinking about this for a bit... And maybe this is out of the scope of this thread and consider this is a newbie's point of view.... the reason I've been a bit meh about composites is just as you say things change sometimes more than others.

If you don't like the composite, hey, grab a Davison!

This extends a bit to my thinking in general about astrology. I'm learning on a basic level, tropical, Pladius, etc.

But then I keep reading about Vedic, Draco, equal houses, etc and I start to think... Hmmm, don't like your Venus in the 12th? No problem... Just use the whole sign chart. Don't like being a Scorpio rising, no problem use Vedic, etc. Don't like your near mid-point? Flip it to the far mid-point... See my problem? Maybe this is a question for a different thread. But how do we deal with so much inconsistency?



I once thought like you about the composite, until I read David Cochrane`s explanations of what a composite really is.
However actually we probably should do aweay with the signs and houses in a composite and focus on the aspect-gestalt alone, cause that is what this is about.
The result of the combination of both invidiual people`s aspects.

For example two people having natally Venus-Pluto-square in the same phase angle (either waxing or waning) will have this aspect in composite as well. Were the phase angle opposite, it would come up as conjunction or opposition in composition.

Also if there is a DW in synastry, especially using the SAME aspect, it will come up in composite again.

Hence a composite will identify the themes between and in the two natals, even if it should not be as apparent on the first glance. It all comes down to the angles between planets (even if it is not always a major aspect).

In this instance it also is of little importance if we take the far or near midpoint (though I find Leeloos explanations very worth pondering). Conjunction or opposition in a composite are a "pair", as well as trine and sextile, and the squares staying among themselves.

http://www.astrosoftware.com/Symmetries.htm


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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 11:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ceridwen:

I once thought like you about the composite, until I read David Cochrane`s explanations of what a composite really is.
However actually we probably should do aweay with the signs and houses in a composite and focus on the aspect-gestalt alone, cause that is what this is about.
The result of the combination of both invidiual people`s aspects.

For example two people having natally Venus-Pluto-square in the same phase angle (either waxing or waning) will have this aspect in composite as well. Were the phase angle opposite, it would come up as conjunction or opposition in composition.

Also if there is a DW in synastry, especially using the SAME aspect, it will come up in composite again.

Hence a composite will identify the themes between and in the two natals, even if it should not be as apparent on the first glance. It all comes down to the angles between planets (even if it is not always a major aspect).

In this instance it also is of little importance if we take the far or near midpoint (though I find Leeloos explanations very worth pondering). Conjunction or opposition in a composite are a "pair", as well as trine and sextile, and the squares staying among themselves.

http://www.astrosoftware.com/Symmetries.htm



That about says it all

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Ceridwen
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posted September 18, 2014 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vajra:
but actually I have quite similar problems with many house systems because some (such as Placidus) do not work everywhere on the Planet at all times, but only part of the time (even if that means most of the time). This limited applicability IMO is a deal breaker; a correct system should work ALL of the time, and anywhere



I was thinking the same for many years, and favoured equal for that reason.
And then I was doing chart analysis for a friend of mine (now a friend, we had actually just met each other back then), and I did two analysis for her, one with equal, one with placidus.

She was born in Sweden and her chart looks like this

[/URL]
See how small the first quadrant is?
not even 30 degrees!


Of course I was SURE, no I would have BETTED on it, that my analysis with equal system would fit her life better.

Yet, it turned out, I was wrong. It was the Placidian analysis that described her life and psychological things best, down to the description I gave of her parents and how it affected her today. And I did not know anything about her or her past before.


and yet, Placidus DOES break down at highest latitudes, as do Koch and all the others.
They say Topocentric doesn`t, but I can`t quite believe that. Every system where ASC is the cusp of 1st and MC of 10th house will fail the moment where ASC and MC fall onto the same degree, which can happen in extreme latitudes.

It is a real problem. Still it seems I can only yield valid results using Placidus or Topocentric. Not sure why that is.

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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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LeeLoo2014
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posted September 18, 2014 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeeLoo2014     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LucieLemonade:
Ok. I've been thinking about this for a bit... And maybe this is out of the scope of this thread and consider this is a newbie's point of view.... the reason I've been a bit meh about composites is just as you say things change sometimes more than others.

If you don't like the composite, hey, grab a Davison!

This extends a bit to my thinking in general about astrology. I'm learning on a basic level, tropical, Pladius, etc.

But then I keep reading about Vedic, Draco, equal houses, etc and I start to think... Hmmm, don't like your Venus in the 12th? No problem... Just use the whole sign chart. Don't like being a Scorpio rising, no problem use Vedic, etc. Don't like your near mid-point? Flip it to the far mid-point... See my problem? Maybe this is a question for a different thread. But how do we deal with so much inconsistency?


lol I agree, it is human nature to favor what favors us lol in this respect, perhaps there is a difference between optimists and pessimists: an optimist like yourself (and myself, for that matter) will look at the bright side and pay more attention to the good signs/charts; the pessimist will probably say: Composite looks more gloomy than Davison, I'm sure it's the Composite the one reflecting reality


But despite these subjective interferences, scientifically, I see no reason in preferring Composite vs Davison for instance, or Synastry vs. Composite, since they both reflect the same astrological truth from a different perspective. The truth is acquired step by step and each of them provides clues. There is a logical course to understand the composite is the result of the synastry, so even if you start looking at it starting from the composite, it is something to always keep in mind IMO, how composite charts are obtained. There's a major characteristic of the Truth, I'm not sure how it's called philosophically, I forgot it now lol: it can be approached from several points of reference (logical and scientific and realistic ones), but it remains the same. The same result will be reflected in the synastry, Composite, Davison. Our problem is that we don't know how to read them yet, but I'm pretty sure they must be congruent.

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Vajra
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posted September 18, 2014 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
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Ceridwen
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posted September 18, 2014 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vajra:
Yes, that would be a very logical conclusion to draw and I likewise tend to think it should be done exactly as you say. Only aspect relations should be interpreted, and perhaps also the qualities of the sign axis (Taurus/Scorpio for instance) the near and far midpoints fall on.

However, I would then go one step further and decide for myself whether I want to use near midpoints or far midpoints, and NOT mix them within one and the same chart in order for it to look more "natural". This IMO is an attempt to hide the fact that it is NOT comparable to any sort of "natural" chart, but a mathematical construct (a very useful one, no doubt).


Yes, I agree with you, and that is how I have always treated it myself.
If Venus comes up opposite Sun, then this is what it is!
And I ALWAYS use the midpoint ASC, never the one derived from an ephemeris based on the MC. That is inconsistent imo, and placing more importance on the midheaven than the ASC, while I see them as equal in importance (of course their meaning differs).

I tend to treat composite placements as an axis, hence I do not start panicking if I see an opposition. lol

In fact oftentimes, those opposing planets will fall together in a DRaconic composite anyway.

However, would I need to decide, I would pick near midpoints, even though it is a tough one if the same planet is in exact opposition in two charts.

I actually have read a composite report that does exactly that, interpreting the placement of planets and asteroid as an axis, with titles like: "Mercury in 5th or 11th house" and so on.

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