posted March 28, 2015 07:40 AM            

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Originally posted by Lotis White:
I've been a bit busy, but I'll respond to you guys soon as I can. Just to let you know.

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posted March 28, 2015 12:09 PM            

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Originally posted by Selenite:
I loved reading this, and completely relate to the subtle differences you outlined On point for all the vertex / anti-vertex encounters I've had in synastry.

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Really? I'll have to slog through the whole thing then, because my experiences have been different. Especially in regards to AVX.

posted March 28, 2015 12:51 PM            

tVALENTINE (quite present in our synastry) was conjunct my Vertex the exact month I fell in love, with tPLUTO conjoining our composite Vertex, just within orb (2°). About two years later (last october), an event I had all planned out came true when tVALENTINE conjoined my Antivertex. (T'was his birthday and I had everything prepared.)

posted March 28, 2015 01:19 PM            

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
...because my experiences have been different. Especially in regards to AVX.

VX is always predominantly life-direction altering; AVX offers more of a choice whether to go tumbling down the rabbit-hole. We just have to remember we brought it to us.

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posted March 29, 2015 02:44 AM            

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Originally posted by Keela:
Isn't that exactly what she's saying? That AVX is where we have the idea and can take it or leave it, so to speak, but normally like it and want it, while Vertex is the stranger sort we don't expect or think beforehand.

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I think Aubyanne and I do have some common ground with our views on the Vertex Axis though. These are some statements from Auby’s post I really agreed with.

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
Nonetheless, the VERTEX tends to bring unexpected surprises, twists and turns, with one thing being certain: you're being shifted onto the path most aligned with your soul's purpose in the present lifeline.

There's a sort of trust inherent and faith that must be present with the VERTEX. We can be shifted suddenly onto our proper life path, along with some extra surprises along the way, or in addition.

The ANTIVERTEX is where WE ultimately attract to us what we THINK we want.

That's why the ANTIVERTEX tends to provide us with these opportunities we've secretly longed for so desperately.

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This is my 'Summary Post' from the end of my long long Vertex Axis discussion.

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Originally posted by Lotis White:
Summary of the Vertex Axis

In Vertex mode we are like Pomona encountering Vertumnus. We may be shocked, surprised, or amazed, by what we encounter, and so this leads to an epiphany or a change of perspective for us which influences our future direction in life.

In Anitvertex mode we are like Vertumnus encountering Pomona. We have a pre-conceived goal or vision of what needs to happen, and when it finally does it’s a fateful experience for us.

Or to put it even more simply… (I’m about to become a parrot here and repeat myself)

The Vertex Axis as a whole relates to fated experiences.

The Vertex relates to unexpected fated experiences, that open our eyes to new possibilities.

The Antivertex relates to expected fated experiences, where something we suspected or hoped for all along takes place.

Conjunctions to the Antivertex indicate that the person in question shows us things we suspected were true, or gives us something we have previously hoped for, in a fated synchronistic way. Connections to the Antivertex confirm our preconceptions. If we have preconceptions about what our ideal mate is supposed to be like, a person hitting our Antivertex can represent that (at least with respect to the planet on our Antivertex). Because the Antivertex is always closer to the Asc then the Vertex, it can be thought of as a type of Asc. I think this is partly true. The Antivertex shows what we suspect our fated path is going to entail. Our fated path as we envision it involves not just ourselves, but also the type of people we've always suspected we were supposed to meet. In love relationships this seems to be a 'wish-fulfillment' thing. The Antivertex is where we walk our fated path as we've envisioned it to be, and connect with people we've half expected to connect with. Even though it‘s a type of Asc, it still totally involves other people.

This is different form what happens at the Vertex, where potentials we've never really considered before blindside us with some type of unexpected twist of fate. Here, it's like we have pivotal experiences where we are changed by others and external events. I think the Vertex is like a Dsc in the sense that we are influenced or coaxed towards stepping outside of our own expectations when something or someone touches this point. We might not have envisioned what the Vertex has to offer us, but once we recognize the opportunity for what it is our expectations can change fit our new reality. The Vertex seems to divert us from our expected path, and transform us in some way. We are convinced by others and external weird happenings to try a new take on things. In love relationships conjunctions to the Vertex give us perspective altering surprises in a fated, synchronistic type of way. And we learn to appreciate the value of something that’s different from what we expected.

The main difference between the Vertex and the Antivertex seems to concern how the unexpected (crazy surprises) contributes to our fate, versus how the expected (our suspicions and hopes) contributes to our fate.

A Vertex story would be... A girl grows up thinking she wants to be a nun, and then she freakishly winds up becoming a fashion model (due to Vertex synastry and transits). With the Vertex we get fateful unexpected opportunities, and unexpected solutions. Like a wild twist of fate.

An Antivertex story would be... A girl grows up longing to be a fashion model, and she winds up actually becoming one (due to Antivertex synastry and transits). With the Antivertex we get fateful expected opportunities, and pre-considered solutions. Yeah, like a dream coming true.

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posted March 29, 2015 06:14 AM            

The daughter of one of my friends has her Ascendant on 6 degrees Libra. I love that child as if she were mine (she is Virgo Sun).
This child is something else for me. I see so much of myself in her, it's really crazy.
The obvious reason for me liking her would be our close Sun-Asc conjunction but two of my best friends are Libra Ascendants (13degLIB)and of course I love them but I love them as the individuals they are. This kid on the other hand is like my mirror. And I wondered if this has something to do with the Vertex.

posted March 29, 2015 12:02 PM            

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Originally posted by Peluches:
These were the best descriptions of the Vertex and Antivertex I've read, and I definitely relate too.

tVALENTINE (quite present in our synastry) was conjunct my Vertex the exact month I fell in love, with tPLUTO conjoining our composite Vertex, just within orb (2°). About two years later (last october), an event I had all planned out came true when tVALENTINE conjoined my Antivertex. (T'was his birthday and I had everything prepared.)

A friend of mine stopped getting abused when tNESSUS conjoined her Vertex at 2° Pisces (the transit's still on, actually). It was getting calmer for her, but I still think Nessus conjunct Vertex was the trigger.

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tVALENTINE, yes. That's a quick one. tNESSUS? No. Way too slow. Unless it's within 0°03 of the time, I'd go with other factors like a tNEP square nVENUS transit. Even nMOON.

I began my abusive 4-year relationship when tNEP was square my nMOON (and a slew of other smaller points).

Abuse never comes out of nowhere, either. It's building in both for years before it happens, and both contribute to its materialisation. That's why we need to examine both synastries as well.

But I'll buy tVAL conjunct nVX for a fated relationship that throws you into your true path, regardless of that relationship's actual nature. The point is that the nVERTEX understands the nature of true love. I can see that transit bringing that about, definitely.

For me, it was a transit of 5 points conjunct my nVERTEX, the day of my boyfriend's 'accident', and the snake in the grass revealing himself.

In synastry, it's pretty astounding with his nSUN and nMARS being conjunct my nVERTEX. He was the one who shocked me so deeply I became a profiler, and would have PTSD that led to my developing the story I'd create at age 20, four years later.

Undoubtedly, he forced me to face my core identity (SUN) and need to defend myself, going on the offence, if need be (MARS).

posted March 29, 2015 02:26 PM            

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Originally posted by Aubyanne:
tVALENTINE, yes. That's a quick one. tNESSUS? No. Way too slow. Unless it's within 0�03 of the time, I'd go with other factors like a tNEP square nVENUS transit. Even nMOON.

I began my abusive 4-year relationship when tNEP was square my nMOON (and a slew of other smaller points).

Abuse never comes out of nowhere, either. It's building in both for years before it happens, and both contribute to its materialisation. That's why we need to examine both synastries as well.

But I'll buy tVAL conjunct nVX for a fated relationship that throws you into your true path, regardless of that relationship's actual nature. The point is that the nVERTEX understands the nature of true love. I can see that transit bringing that about, definitely.

For me, it was a transit of 5 points conjunct my nVERTEX, the day of my boyfriend's 'accident', and the snake in the grass revealing himself.

In synastry, it's pretty astounding with his nSUN and nMARS being conjunct my nVERTEX. He was the one who shocked me so deeply I became a profiler, and would have PTSD that led to my developing the story I'd create at age 20, four years later.

Undoubtedly, he forced me to face my core identity (SUN) and need to defend myself, going on the offence, if need be (MARS).

As to what was brought into being? The transit points on my nVERTEX unfold that like a story in and of itself. Flabbergasting, to this day.

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Hmm, I'm not sure. I know Nessus is slow, but the abuse had already stopped a little last year ; the last very significant abuse she remembers occurred on 7 September 2013, when transit Nessus was at 26° AQU 23' exactly conjunct natal DESTINN (and applying), and moving towards natal VERTEX at 2° PIS 10'. Then, the abuse carried on a little in 2013-14 but was less powerful. On 6 April 2014, tNESSUS was at 0° PIS 09', so just within orb. Since then, there has only been minor disagreements -- occasionally -- (maybe when tNESSUS went Retrograde and went out of orb again ?), which did not result in any other serious abuse.

posted March 29, 2015 02:28 PM            

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Originally posted by Aubyanne :
For me, it was a transit of 5 points conjunct my nVERTEX, the day of my boyfriend's 'accident', and the snake in the grass revealing himself.

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posted March 30, 2015 02:45 PM            

Do you mind me asking, what happened with that nutcase who caused the crash?

posted April 04, 2015 01:24 AM            

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Originally posted by Lotis White:
Yes, exactly. Thanks Keela.
If you read the whole thing I did address the issue of how the Vertex Axis is not always romantic in transits and synastry. It’s just highly flammable when other romantic synastry is already present. It adds a feeling of extra significance to a connection, and its symbolism does describe certain aspects of our romantic taste. The types of situations and scenarios, as well as a certain type of dynamic, that presses our excitement buttons.

With the Antivertex we get fateful expected opportunities, and pre-considered solutions. Yeah, like a dream coming true.

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posted April 06, 2015 06:42 AM            

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Originally posted by Keela:
What is your experience or view of Vertexes opposed? In general, but also listing an example below if that helps specify anything.

I have something with Vertex 1 conjunct Pomona, opposite another Vertex, for example. The Antivertex is under 2 from Pomona as I recall, and finds the Vx-Pomona person more or less interesting, I guess.

Mercury is 18 Gem as I recall, Vx 20, Pomona 21 so the ruler of Vertex is conjunct VX as well. 8th house as I recall. AVX-ruler Sag is 25 Cancer. Secondary 7th house is 2nd house, AVX in there.

The other Vertex is 19 Sag, 5H, AVX 11H along with 11H Gemini Mars and Pomona at 4 and 8 degrees. 11H is also the secondary 7th and 8th house.

VX-ruler Jupiter is 24 Aries, AVX-ruler 16.53 Gem, which leads to VX ruler square AVX-ruler and vice versa. Severely fated (or crossways?) something with the Vertumnal opposition already as it is? If you prefer, I can send an email about the example to not clutter the thread beyond the general question.

Edit: Forgot to note that the sidereal AVX is conjunct regular SN, VX on NN. The other AVX thus conj NN in synastry of sidereal to natals as is.

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Hi Keela,

Well, when the Vertices are opposite each other in synastry… What one person is expecting and hoping for, is the same as what shocks and surprises the other person. However, both will experience same types of things as meaningful and significant. So when transits set off the Vertex Axis for both of you, you’re both likely to have some type of key turning point… But for one of you there’ll be a case of suspicions getting confirmed, while the other experiences being blindsided out of nowhere. The fun thing about this is that you tend to though meaningful turning points and fateful experiences together, or separately but at the same time, so there’s a strong sense of sharing a special understanding. You’re able to bond over going through experiences that resonate powerfully simultaneously. Also, people tend to be rather insightful and shrewd where their Antivertex lies because this is what they tend to focus on and be preoccupied with. And people tend to be a little naïve and innocent where they’re Vertex lies because this is the stuff they tend to miss unless it’s pointed out to them, kind of like a blindspot. The good thing about this is that where one person is shrewd, the other is innocent, and vice versa. So when people have their Vertices opposite each other they are able to compensate for each other and help each other when life throws them curveballs.

An example, a couple that has a Vertex Axis opposition in synastry have a shared friend. This friend suddenly double crosses them in a mutual business deal one day during a transit to the women’s Antivertex and the man’s Vertex. The man (the Vertex person) is shocked that his friend did this to them. The women (the Antivertex person), however, saw it coming and was actually afraid this would happen. So she took measures to protect them in case it did. Depending on the which end of the opposition is being activated, the Antivertex person is usually the one that gets a ‘premonition’ about what might happen. Whereas the Vertex person is usually stunned. If the transit were to the women’s Vertex and the Man’s Antivertex, then she would be the surprised one, and he would be the one saying he thought this might happen.

As for the connection between the asteroid Pomona and the Vertex… I’m sure it means something, but I haven’t had enough experience with the asteroid itself to really say. It would seem fitting though to say that the Pomona in our chart shows some type of ‘ideal’ that is difficult to reach or unobtainable somehow, so you put it/them on a pedestal. This is only my guess. While the Vertex shows how we’re often delighted by some type of unexpected good fortune (unless we’re lead astray by the dark side of the Vertex). So it seems to me that maybe the Pomona person would be seen as some type of positive example by the Vertex person. The Vertex person might be surprised to discover how much they can really admire the Pomona person’s qualities (provided the rest of the synastry is positive). In a negative situation the Vertex person might see the Pomona person as overly coy or deliberately withholding in some way… Like they put up barriers and make communication difficult which can be frustrating to the Vertex.

You mentioned in your thread that the Ep is just square the Mc. Not exactly. My Mc is 4 degrees away from a square to my Ep. So if you want to know the exact location of your Ep, just thinking of it as a square to the Mc is not enough. 4 four degrees it quite a bit of distance when it comes to synastry. Especially with sensitive points. My thread on the Ep/Wp Axis gives instructions on how to calculate it on astro.com.

As for having Draconic Sun conjunct the Equatorial DC, opp East Point… This would indicate that the Draconic person’s sole sense of future direction, the ‘heart’ of there path forward, resonates well with the Ep person’s sense of contentment and comfort. As the draconic Sun person is makws progress the Ep person feels this happy relaxed feeling that everything’s going to be okay. The Vertex Axis is about compelling, exciting experiences. The Ep/Wp seems to be about contentment and a warm, soothing feeling of satisfaction… Being happy with what you have, and feeling that a certain situation or person is ‘just right’ the way that they are.

posted April 06, 2015 06:54 AM            

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Hi LotisWhite,

Reading this thread has been a real journey. I read the first half last night with a glass of wine, and finished the 2nd half this morning with a cup of coffee

I will follow the thread closely and see how my Vertex axis plays out in the future. As far as past encounters, I'm definitely finding strong correlation with what you're saying, but still figuring out how it all ties together.

My Antivertex is in 1H Pisces, and conjuncts Juno.
My Vertex is in 7H Virgo and conjuncts Karma exact.
My North Node is in 1H Pisces and my South Node is in 7H Virgo, but they are 19 degrees away from the Vertex axis.
Anti vertex sign ruler Neptune conjuncts my Sun exact (7H ruler, as 7H cusp is in Leo).
Vertex sign ruler Mercury also conjuncts my Sun.
1H ruler Uranus (1H cusp in Aquarius) is my chart ruler (Aquarius AC), conjuncts Saturn exact, is part of a 11H stellium with my Sun, Neptune and Mercury, mid-points my Venus-Pluto square, and squares my Nodal axis.

For the 2 most significant relationships in my life (both of which were unhealthy, and the first one especially traumatic):
When I met the first guy, Uranus was conjunct my Antivertex and trNN was conjunct natal NN exact. He was definitely an ideal I had built up previously, but the relationship was pure disillusionment and disappointment. When I broke up with him, trSaturn was conjunct my Vertex, trUranus, trVenus and trMars were conjunct my North Node, and trJuno was conjunct my Antivertex and natal Juno. During the span of the relationship, Saturn was transiting my 7H.

When I met the 2nd guy, he definitely brought me out of my current state of mind. TrVenus and Mars were conjunct my Vertex then. When we amicably ended it (triggered by me), trNeptune, Mercury and Chiron all conjunct my Antivertex.

The theme in my romantic life has always been about me putting the guy first and myself second. And I always wanted life to just take me by surprise and present me with happy experiences. However, through the drama I went through, I learned self-love and now I categorically want to be in charge of my destiny. Since the Antivertex is in the same house and sign as my North Node, I think that in past lives I've let too much to "destiny" and other people, and in this life I'm supposed to consciously attract my desired reality.

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Hi Saturnfan,

You make a very interesting point about the interaction between the Nodes and the Vertex Axis. Even though they are not exactly conjunct they are in the same signs and so resonate with the same types of energy patterns. My nodes and my Vertex Axis are in different sign oppositions and so I never thought about it this way.

But yeah, a South Node/Vertex conjunction could indicate letting others and external events interfere too much with where we need to be headed, whereas a North Node/Vertex conjunction could indicate needing to follow a path we deliberately manifested and choose without letting ourselves be derailed. That’s what makes sense anyway.

posted April 06, 2015 07:11 AM            

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Originally posted by astra7:
In synastry, I am thinking....if your Vertex is conjunct your partners Sun or Pluto (Asc ruler for Leo or Scorpio respectively) for example, perhaps this means that you and he is meant to be together?

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The Vertex Axis is very good at making certain events and people seem personally significant to us. Beyond that it’s doesn’t guarantee anything. We can have a personally significant connection that lasts only a week, or even a few hours, if it provides the opportunity for a turning point that we need. The long lasting relationship part depends on the rest of the synastry playing out nicely.

posted April 06, 2015 08:50 AM            

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Originally posted by Lotis White:
It would seem fitting though to say that the Pomona in our chart shows some type of ‘ideal’ that is difficult to reach or unobtainable somehow, so you put it/them on a pedestal. ... So it seems to me that maybe the Pomona person would be seen as some type of positive example by the Vertex person. The Vertex person might be surprised to discover how much they can really admire the Pomona person’s qualities (provided the rest of the synastry is positive). In a negative situation the Vertex person might see the Pomona person as overly coy or deliberately withholding in some way… Like they put up barriers and make communication difficult which can be frustrating to the Vertex.

You mentioned in your thread that the Ep is just square the Mc. Not exactly. My Mc is 4 degrees away from a square to my Ep. So if you want to know the exact location of your Ep, just thinking of it as a square to the Mc is not enough. 4 four degrees it quite a bit of distance when it comes to synastry. Especially with sensitive points. My thread on the Ep/Wp Axis gives instructions on how to calculate it on astro.com.

As for having Draconic Sun conjunct the Equatorial DC, opp East Point… This would indicate that the Draconic person’s sole sense of future direction, the ‘heart’ of there path forward, resonates well with the Ep person’s sense of contentment and comfort. As the draconic Sun person is makws progress the Ep person feels this happy relaxed feeling that everything’s going to be okay. The Vertex Axis is about compelling, exciting experiences. The Ep/Wp seems to be about contentment and a warm, soothing feeling of satisfaction… Being happy with what you have, and feeling that a certain situation or person is ‘just right’ the way that they are.

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Thank you for getting back to these. I'll read what your other replies said after this. Quick commentary before more sleep:

As far as I recall whatever table on Astro had the East Point also square the MC so seemed pointless (so to speak) to require "calculations" if it was there. Have checked and seemed the square, although don't now remember what your EP post had for whatever would further pass for actual "calculations" beyond the Astro chart I recall. Or beyond just the "It's square" which it was in my case at least. I don't remember your thread emphasizing that there may actually be a couple of degrees of a difference, so it didn't occur to me that someone might actually NOT have it exactly square (when texts sold it to me as the square long long ago already). I don't use it that much per se but have to start checking for precision then if it's less accurate in other people's cases than appeared.

It's a natal draconic Sun opposite the same person's own East Point, conjunct West Point/Eq. DC , not synatry. I'll have to remind myself on what you wrote about those axis ends though, yes.

A synastry example with East Point would be a natal Eros conj own West Point, and a synastry Eros ~2 degrees from the East Point in "first house's" side opposite the Eros-WP -- although that's a different EP than the one in the first drac Sun example. This example's EP also has synastry of EP inconjunct Psyche exactly, but I'm not counting such for now. Well, I guess I could when the pattern is a returned aspect of the other Psyche ~2 trine the other EP as well to make it a Psyche-EP and EP-Eros style synastry "pair" contact, but anyway.

Peluches asked about a natal Pomona-Vertex connection as well if I recall, although further realize you already state you don't know much about Pomona. I have Pomona conjunct one of my two main name asteroids, and Ceres-Varuna-Aglaja (origin for Keela, as I learned after picking the name here) and more, but I couldn't say much about it since I never felt any maternal mother-nature type in the least, for the Ceres side at least. This with Ceres/Pluto and the two name asteroids both having their midpoints on my Ascendant. I can be pretty oblivious about possible suitors at times though, or not interested.

posted April 10, 2015 09:04 AM            

I natally have Mercury parallel my 7th house Vertex, which, I realized with this and Aubyanne's thread, perfectly matches my 7th house ruler being conjunct Mercury.

Do parallels and contraparallels count for aspects? They'd be tight, so my gut says they could. Though in my case, it backs up something in my chart that was already there.

Vertex in Aries. Yes, people have shocked me with their bluntness and actions that were only in it for themselves. Like, people I never would've thought would do something (often bad) out of self-interest. Of course, in their eyes, it was just choosing something for themselves and they have other values. And of course it mostly shocked me since they wouldn't take me into account. But hey, it's my DSC sign, I need to own these traits more.

I don't really know if I have this "known all along" feeling about Libra, though, come to think of it, it does fit the negative example of someone doing/deciding something I feared they would (but really, really hoped they wouldn't). Especially in my social cicle actually - people at first seemed very welcome, accepting and nice to each other, only to find out, once I was closer friends with them, they gossiped a lot, would trash each other the second they'd left the room, etc. I just couldn't believe it - to people they called their best friends. But where does the "all along" thing come in? Because it scared me off. Once I saw what they did to others, part of me was always wary of them and yes, it always turned out they were just as brutal about me behind my back. Sometimes for things that could've easily been solved if they'd bothered to talk to me about it (like, we hung out a LOT, sure they'd have a chance to tell me if they really wanted to). And though I'm not proud of it, I once had a massive meltdown over it, flipping out at a couple of them who were at the wrong place at the wrong time, after months of trying to get along and please them. Of course I got a reputation after that and I got the sense they never truly gave me another chance.

Don't know how much that has to do with Libra. Maybe just the being more interested in looking like they were all a happy group of friends instead of trying to work out any problems (which of course means having to deal with the disharmony)?

posted April 10, 2015 06:27 PM            

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Originally posted by SaturnFan:
Aubyanne,

Do you mind me asking, what happened with that nutcase who caused the crash?

Feel free to not answer at all, I'm asking because both the story and your writing style are very engaging, and I sincerely hope he got what he deserved.

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SaturnFan, I've been inundated with a great deal this month, and JUST saw this. So glad the thread started rising back up the forum!

posted April 10, 2015 06:29 PM            

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Originally posted by astra7:
In synastry, I am thinking....if your Vertex is conjunct your partners Sun or Pluto (Asc ruler for Leo or Scorpio respectively) for example, perhaps this means that you and he is meant to be together?

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