posted June 02, 2016 01:26 PM              

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
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EDIT
There is one point though I would disagree with you in your post, that some methods resonate better with some than with others. 
Astrological methods need to be valid and consistent no matter who applies them. The question is just how do we define their validity?"

I do agree with you. We obviously can't just apply things willy nilly and claim they are valid just because they resonate with us unless we are only using them for personal reasons and for personal gratification; then like any divinatory art it will be absolutely unique to that individual how they interpret the symbols. I believe in synchronicity and magic and am not entirely scientifically minded, in that I see meaning in things which may seem nonsensical, and take even accidental or erroneous evidence as an omen or portent sometimes.

However that can be dangerous territory and it's very important to remain rooted in the validity of the tradition as verified and built upon by countless people. This is part of why astrology rocks. It's scientific and magical atonce.

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posted June 02, 2016 01:31 PM            

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
I didn't mean to be unkind or disrespectful, hope I was not too harsh asking about your background, Kannon, I just had to wonder whether you've really looked into all the possibilities in the diverse realm of interpersonal analysis. I find it difficult when somebody thinks their way is the only way and tells others so without having looked more deeply into the matter. But I respect conviction and accept that everybody has different methods which work for them. It's necessary as a practising astrologer sometimes to pare down the methods used and focus on the ones that work for you. I totally understand that. Focus the lens, as it were. Just better not to limit other people's possibilities for learning and exploring different lenses on astrology. It is a divinatory art and a kind of mathematical magic; a tradition which is vibrantly alive and always being modified and added to as our knowledge and experience grows and deepens. Astrology is as diverse as the people who practise it; in my eyes it's about celebrating the multi-faceted nature of reality... which is in flux, but which mercifully affords these somewhat steady ways of understanding which move and grow with us. The stars and planets themselves are never in the same pattern twice; this can symbolically tell us something about the nature of the practise of astrology itself. It shouldn't be left to stagnate... The different explorations of progresions, midpoint work, evc's, etc etc, are all beneficial to the field and are essentially necessary for a healthy, well rounded evolution of the art and practise of astrology, imo. We are all always learning. I try to keep an open mind and not come to too many conclusions; that way I continue to learn--but different things work well for different people. And certainly it's advisable to make sure that the methods you are working make good sense for you personally. Some don't resonate with everybody. We really are all unique and that's good.

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Love this comment

ETA: Wanted to add that we're all going to gravitate to different methods. I prefer draconic charts to Davison charts, by far. But it doesn't matter to anyone but me, though perhaps it matters to other astrologers just as a point of discussion and interest.

Within this community, I like to have some familiarity with all the common charts, so I can follow what other people are saying, as a matter of respect.

Ceri has software and I don't, so she tells me things I can't really comprehend, but usually her numbers are adding up, or she's making visually striking charts, and building a case for "Wow, look at this!" which is totally worth engaging in, even if I'm fuzzy on the whole conceptual background.

Between ourselves it simply doesn't matter, as we're using astrology for fun.

If I were a professional astrologer I might have a need to justify my chart preferences to clients with the history of the chart, astronomy, fancy words and whatever else might do the trick.

But here at LL, an open attitude amongst ourselves makes the experience better and also fosters learning.

posted June 02, 2016 02:11 PM              

You know about my Saga with Mr SAg, right? (Sure you do, who wouldnīt who has read more than one post of me. ).

Some time ago I noticed that when we first met we had

pcVenus 24°29 Aquarius
c Avx 25°00 Aquarius
Tr Neptune 24°15 Aquarius

This was too glaring to not notice for me, and then I noticed something else and that was that Tr Neptune seemed to walk in step with our pr c-Venus for quite some time.

It amazed me to see that the moment (pretty much down to the month or so) Tr Neptune would stop its pendulum-like movement over our pr Venus and finally move on from her (ironically this happened once both ingressed into Pisces), but anyway just the time when Tr Neptune moved on, WE sort of "re-met", but this time more rooted in reality, and our interaction became decidedly less Neptunian and much more "real".

(BTW on our first meeting Tr SN was conjunct c-Saturn with only one minute of arc. Which I found interesting as for him natally Tr Saturn was conjunct n NN with 39 minutes, which I consider still pretty tight)

"you return to basics and touchstone concepts and methods, and ensure that you are covering all your bases. This is part of why I respect your work so much, I know your approach is generally measured and thoughtful and very thorough."
Thank you for saying this.

But yes, I feel the need to get back to the basics (though my basic toolkit sometimes expands a little, for example the EVC`s will never disappear from it again. They`ve just proven too accurate, specifically in combination with midpoints; I am pretty sure many astrologer would consider that NOT basic and total "Mumpitz", but then again I am not many astrologers, just me. )

"she verifies the significance of the relationship or the nature of the union forming at that time using the progressed composite"
Robert Blashke wrote in his book that he often progressed the composite to the time of the first meeting to see the purpose of the relationship. That seems similiar.
Hmm, I wonder why I never did that myself?
Well okay I did I guess. and found that there was pc-Venus opposing c-Vertex, so I guess that must have been what he was doing, too, progressing composites to the first meeting.

I also noticed angular aspects being quite telling in terms of "connecting"

When we first met pc MC was conjunct c-Mercury by 7 minutes (applying).

Then I disappeared, yadda yadda, and when I resurfaced he approached me (in a situation I could not run away ) and that day there was

pcSun 1°21 Aquarius
c-ASC 1°21 Aquarius

(naturally square my n Uranus on 1°21 Scorpio - yes i was surprised and I was a surprise possibly, too).

Anyway still in our Neptunian phase, I did what I do best, slip away.

And I mentioned the re-meeting that somehow anchored that weird connection in reality.

I did not really plan this.

But that day our composite had its Venus-Return. lol (Venus being ruler of the composite North Node).

Nothing too obvious progressed-composite wise, unless we count that pc Vertex was in a Grand trine with pc Moon and cMoon, hence falling on the midpoint of both Moons.
oh and there was a Pythagorean triangle of
pc Mercury 13°01 Aqua
pc Jupiter 13°36 Gemini
pc Uranus 13°40 Scorpio

and pc Moon square the c-Vertex-axis by 48 minutes applying.

But it really were the transits at that time that made me look up

Tr Mercury conjunct pc Uranus 0°03a
(2 weeks before the solar ecclipse had take place on that degree)

Tr Saturn conjunct c-MC 0°19 a
(Tr Karma was within one degree as well)

Tr Venus conjunct c-Venus 0°28 s
(not a usual major player but it sort of intrigued me that there was the Venus-return and that Venus was exact sextile Saturn-Karma which fell onto the c-MC)

Tr Neptune had JUST decided to slowly move away from our pc Venus (1°19 s), still pretty close, but they would neve "hook up" again, and well it`s also true after that meeting it still took some months until meeting again (but it always felt like the pattern and energy changed THAT night, just in terms of a seed, like a New Moon. You can`t quite see the results of it instantly )

Tr Jupiter was widely opposing Moon at 2°51 a (but I thought it interesting for 2 reasons:
1. it was actually on the MOon-Venus-mp, as they are widely conjunct each other

2. when we first met Tr Jupiter was CONJUNCT c-Moon exact (and btw that widish Jupiter-Moon opposition was actually an exact conjunction in Davison)

Tr Jupiter was also squaring the nodal axis (both of course) under one degree

Tr Mars was conjunct pc Vertex 1°12 a (and hence maybe activating *something* )

I guess I got carried away a little, but I just like finding such specific aspects. lol

"She had all but advised against that relationship when I consulted her about it, but when she saw the Vertex-Juno conjunction acknowledged that it probably had to happen anyway. She was right on both counts."
Yes, Vertex is not to be underestimated! It really has that sucking in energy.

posted June 02, 2016 02:20 PM              

and then at the end of the day in terms of predictive charts, what am I coming back to always?

° Transits, event-charts, event-composites
° progressions.

That`s pretty much it, folks! Nothing else needed (though sometimes fun to be looked at), but everything will already show in these charts.

(though I admit I am very much drawn to midpoints, and I guess noone else understand when I am going on about them. lol Maybe Todd, but he has his own midpoint-salad.
Me, I am probably very much influenced by Reinhold Ebertin`s work, though I am not as gloomy as he was interpreting, I give him credit, he lived in very dark times and that showe, and honestly? His gloomy interpretations are fare more often manifesting in reality than I even like to think about, and Noel Tyl I guess.

But yes, if it really comes down to it?
° Transits
° Progressions

° lumninaries, angles, nodal axis, Vertex and in terms of relationship Venus
(aspects to them I mean, conjunctions and oppositions usually, but not always, seems to matter more that the aspect is exact or close to it)

Nothing to find there in an orb of lets say 15-30 minutes?
Well if you think something`s going to happen nevertheless, you might be reaching for straws and indulging in fantasies (which can be nice btw).

posted June 02, 2016 02:38 PM            

Also very interesting re: Neptune having been in step with pr.comp. Venus. Yes is all I can say to your many observations regarding the change in energy. Neptune reaaallly has a way of blurring things (it was exactly square comp Juno around when we first hooked up and we had nooo idea what to expect/do with that Juno lol)..

Edit: but it makes me wonder about Neptune. I think it blurs things on purpose and gives that walking on air feeling and it is indeed difficult to ground but ironically it seems to set up an energetic resonance or pattern, gently creating out of the nebulous nothing something wonderful and potentially distinct.. it clouds things from our vision almost to get our mental stuff out of the way so it can do its magic....

This is making me want to try to pinpoint at least the year I met D. but not sure I'll be able to... it was a long time ago (maybe long ago also that Neptune was in Aquarius! You've known Mr. Sag for some time! And yes of course I'm somewhat familiar with the story .

I'm thinking actually Neptune when we actually first met was probably on our composite Descendant come to think of it.. or no... now I'm looking at the ephemeris.. thinking it would have been 2007 that we met so it was around composite Moon/Vertex... we're both Neptunian and it was a very very Neptunian time... i introduced him to carlos castaneda's books back then and changed his life i think a bit... I will look into the likely rough progressed composite for those years when I get home (excited now...).

posted June 02, 2016 03:12 PM            

Yes, I noticed that...maybe in other circles, solar arcs will be discussed more, they aren't big in this community. I think we are lopsided in some ways because of how certain people have more charisma and more people click on their threads and listen to them. Not that I blame you for any of that you can't help it if you're influential.

I love the midpoints also. I love draconic transits and some other weird stuff. A lot of it is particular to my station in life. I'm married and can't really use astrology to fan the flames of a crush without it just being...a theoretical flight of fancy. I'm not driven to look at love asteroids and all the other things one does when they are just intoxicated with love or very lonely and using charts to find the right person, or whatever.

I like draconic charts because my focus has been more retrospective on my romantic life as I lived it...And it's particular useful tracing family links and speculating about various people who are meaningful to me, on a kind of soul level. Also I'm finding that event charts and draconic charts go together like peas and carrots.

Some of it sometimes feels like we are just making artwork with time and numbers and some of the charts really are pretty, and what more do we even want?

Then you see repeating numbers in your charts and experiences and get thunderstruck with the significance...well we all know how it goes. For me it's been the driving force of getting deeper and deeper into astrology. Something I didn't foresee when I started.

@yungang

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but it makes me wonder about Neptune. I think it blurs things on purpose and gives that walking on air feeling and it is indeed difficult to ground but ironically it seems to set up an energetic resonance or pattern, gently creating out of the nebulous nothing something wonderful and potentially distinct.. it clouds things from our vision almost to get our mental stuff out of the way so it can do its magic....

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This is beautiful but hard for me to ascertain while it's happening.

Maybe in hindsight it makes more sense.

I have serious Neptune issues lately. What with the mutable grand cross in the air.

edit ~ don't want to complain

Honestly with tr Neptune squaring my Neptune exact, I'm too confused to complain.

quote:

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I will look into the likely rough progressed composite for those years when I get home (excited now...).

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posted June 02, 2016 04:08 PM              

"don't stop with the midpoints!"
Oh I certainly won!t!

w" I think it blurs things on purpose and gives that walking on air feeling and it is indeed difficult to ground but ironically it seems to set up an energetic resonance or pattern, gently creating out of the nebulous nothing something wonderful and potentially distinct."
Yes, I think so, too.
Well sometimes it might blur so much it all fizzles out. But I also feel like I needed that blurred-time. Okay I have probably extended it too long, but thinking back of who I was when I met him, I could not have interacted with him like I can do now, or see him like I see him now. or see myself as I see me now even.

"phemeris.. thinking it would have been 2007 that we met "
Yes that`s about it.

Well actually I first saw him on 3rd june 2006, and hm me, I guess, though he might not remember, that he was racing up the stairs and pointing a microphone at me, until I hastily hid behind my friend`s backs. lol

But of course I remember that incident, and so I couldnīt help but smile when he was doing that Podcast (th efirst and only one so far) yesterday and musing about how may became june and getting all fascinated with the 1st of june and especially the whole beginning of june.
iz`s just a coincidence but funny enough it`s always been around that time (end of may/ beginning of June) that I resurfaced somehow. But not intentionally mostly it was just the timeline of both our professional lives I guess. lol

"so it was around composite Moon/Vertex..."
That sounds strong and emotionally important.

" I will look into the likely rough progressed composite for those years when I get home (excited now...)."
Can`t wait!

"Edit: whoa and Pluto was on his South Node when we met! Holy crowly."
Wow!

Well actually that day, 2 years before we actually really met, Tr Pluto had just started to transit both our suns and I think I was additionally having Neptune conjunct my Moon and Saturn opposing it. I thnk?

and when we DID meet, our first meeting chart of course had a one degree MOon-Pluto-conjunction. and Tr Pluto probably still in orb for conjunct his n Moon-MC.

posted June 02, 2016 04:15 PM              

"Yes, I noticed that...maybe in other circles, solar arcs will be discussed more,"
Noel Tyl and Basil Fearrington use them exclusively I thin.

Well I always check them, too, even though of course they are artificial directions, but that does not mean they are wrong.
But personally I am still a little pouty, because my solar Arc Venus was conjunct my Moon last year, peak was in march I think, and did I get into a relationship?
So yeah, I am pouting a little. lol

Nah seriously, I can see how this solar arc Venus was emphasizing my lunar nature, bringing me in contact with that strange planet that is doing only weird things in my chart.

"I love draconic transits and some other weird stuff.
I love Draconics, too, but really comapring Dracos with Davison? That is like comparing tomatoes with well non-food.
Total different thing really. Of course if you are talking about Draconic Davison

"A lot of it is particular to my station in life. "
Yes absolutley.

"I'm not driven to look at love asteroids "
Yeah, well, I am not that big on love asteroids either, except my handful I usually check.

" speculating about various people who are meaningful to me, on a kind of soul level. Also I'm finding that event charts and draconic charts go together like peas and carrots."
Yes, absolutely. I agree.

"

Some of it sometimes feels like we are just making artwork with time and numbers and some of the charts really are pretty, and what more do we even want?

Then you see repeating numbers in your charts and experiences and get thunderstruck with the significance"
Ii feel the same

posted June 02, 2016 04:45 PM            

"pouting"

I have actually been so satisfied with the standard diet of progressions and transits, solar arcs are like snack food that I don't feel a craving for...

"I love Draconics, too, but really comapring Dracos with Davison? That is like comparing tomatoes with well non-food.
Total different thing really."

I just meant that as often as others talk about Davison, I talk about draconics. And I rarely look at Davison charts. They tend to not be as structured in my experience. Maybe because the synastry that brings people together is best reflected in their actual placements, captured in the composite. So Mars trine Sun DW in synastry makes a trine in composite but not necessarily in Davison.
Seems that strong aspects in synastry are more likely to get lost in Davison so it looks more garbled.

As for the validity of progressed composite...well to get back on track....

When I stopped talking to my ex:

5 Sag progressed composite Venus
5 Sag transiting Pluto

When I got married, there's a yod with Saturn and Mars at the base, 1 Pisces moon at the apex in the 7H, sextile 0 Cap Venus, sextile transiting Venus-Saturn at 1-2 Taurus (and the moon was there also that day.)

28 Cancer, pr comp Juno
28 Pisces, transiting sun-Mercury
28 Sag, pr comp sun

Transiting Uranus within 2 degrees of pr comp DSC, assuming my birth time is right.

Most significantly, I think, we have a big 4th house stellium in progressed composite.

I might make or bump a thread about the 4H in composite because it seems to indicate whether or not people will live together (?) Need to research.

The only thing that bothers me about progressed composites is, I can't tell which is more important, that or the regular composite. Squares in composite become trines in progressed composite and so on. Then I just don't know what to pin stuff on.

I remember my best friend suffering because of her ex one time, and I thought the progressed composite was just in an acute phase of misery, and assured her it would pass (well, what else can one say?) and yes he did come back later and they dated again. Maybe that was the progressed composite "flare up" or maybe something else. I mean, sometimes it's like you just reach for what looks like the most plausible and obvious explanation.

posted June 02, 2016 05:17 PM            

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Originally posted by mir:
Yes it is.
Assuming the validity of progressions; if a progressed-composite wouldn't work, a natal-composite wouldn't work either. More insight into the underlying compo geometry might give some clarity for those who clearly haven't.

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Agree I support your explanation and I see what you see, my friend we share the same vision when it comes to progressions and I have defently seen couples evolve together with the progressed composite along with progressed synastry especially when a TRANSIT hits that but this is just my OPINION.

And YUNGANG I also SUPPORT YOU since we are both obsessed with predictive astrology .