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Author
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Topic: Narcissism and Flattery...
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Odette
Moderator Posts: 6693
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted March 02, 2016 05:37 PM
  
He says to you:"You are perfection to me in every way. No one could ever be more perfect.
They say that when you meet the right person... they make you become the best "you".. you can be (insert more flattery)... You make me a better person. Ever since we've met... ever since I've known you... I feel like I am becoming a better person every day, just in virtue of knowing you and talking to you" You say to him: "That's really very nice of you and thank you for the compliments. But let me ask you this....
Do you feel like you have also made *me* a better person... and helped me change for the better as well.... and please tell me in what way?" He thinks about it...... changes it into something that sounds like a half-joke... and says: "No! *smirk* But you're already perfect!" You say: "So..... if the right person, as you said... is someone who can make you better... and I am already perfect... does this mean I should stay single forever... by that logic?" He changes the subject... says he is tired.... and doesn't really want to answer.
Later - he agrees that you made a good point... and agrees to answer your initial question... and then tells you that *yes* he knows you do have some flaws... and that he may have helped you also... etc.... but it doesn't sound all that believable...
Now!
Assume also that you have scrolled down this person's FB page... and this was not the first time they defined another individual or situation in very idealistic terms, using words like "perfect" or making good vs bad distinctions... and seemingly missing "grey areas"....
I have a multiple choice quiz for you... and thank you so much for answering! It would mean a lot to me if you did... In the above situation..... would you feel: A) Genuinely flattered. Clearly this person really likes you - and cares about you a great deal, and also has a high opinion of you. Oh Yay! B) Slightly perturbed by the whole thing since nobody is perfect and we are all human… so you might think this person is a bit delusional… a bit too idealistic… or maybe you might check out the synastry and think it’s the interaction between the two of you that's bringing out this “magical thinking" in them (e.g. hard Sun/Neptune aspects) C) Think they are a full blown narcissist who only cares about perfection and achievements (since they are also pretty fascinated by your achievements!)…
In this case, you think that they are acting exactly like the paragraph I posted below on NPD traits….
i.e. They only see you as narcissistic supply and are addicted to you, as opposed to being "in love" – and are only interested in you in as much as your so-called “perfection” bolsters their OWN image… (when they are with you!)... IP: Logged |
Odette
Moderator Posts: 6693
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted March 02, 2016 05:44 PM
From "Early Warning signs of NPD"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-craig-malkin/narcissists_b_3331293.html quote:
4) Idol Worship: Another common narcissistic tendency you might be less familiar with is the habit of putting people on pedestals. The logic goes a bit like this: "If I find someone perfect to be close to, maybe some of their perfection will rub off on me, and I'll become perfect by association." The fact that no one can be perfect is usually lost on the idol-worshipping narcissist -- at least until they discover, as they inevitably do, that their idol has clay feet. And stand back once that happens. Few experiences can prepare you for the vitriol of a suddenly disappointed narcissist. Look out for any pressure to conform to an image of perfection, no matter how lovely or magical the compulsive flattery might feel.
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Odette
Moderator Posts: 6693
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted March 02, 2016 06:05 PM
And.... on the astrology side of things... I'm just wondering - What aspects in synastry and composite do you think could lead to this kind of idealisation?
We have both Sun/Neptune and Sun/Jupiter (my Sun!)Is there anything else? IP: Logged |
mar1982delta
Knowflake Posts: 482
From:
Registered: Nov 2015
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posted March 02, 2016 06:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Odette:
[b]He says to you:"You are perfection to me in every way. No one could ever be more perfect.
They say that when you meet the right person... they make you become the best "you".. you can be (insert more flattery)... You make me a better person. Ever since we've met... ever since I've known you... I feel like I am becoming a better person every day, just in virtue of knowing you and talking to you" You say to him: "That's really very nice of you and thank you for the compliments. But let me ask you this....
Do you feel like you have also made *me* a better person... and helped me change for the better as well.... and please tell me in what way?" He thinks about it...... changes it into something that sounds like a half-joke... and says: "No! *smirk* But you're already perfect!" You say: "So..... if the right person, as you said... is someone who can make you better... and I am already perfect... does this mean I should stay single forever... by that logic?" He changes the subject... says he is tired.... and doesn't really want to answer.
Later - he agrees that you made a good point... and agrees to answer your initial question... and then tells you that *yes* he knows you do have some flaws... and that he may have helped you also... etc.... but it doesn't sound all that believable...
Now!
Assume also that you have scrolled down this person's FB page... and this was not the first time they defined another individual or situation in very idealistic terms, using words like "perfect" or making good vs bad distinctions... and seemingly missing "grey areas"....
I have a multiple choice quiz for you... and thank you so much for answering! It would mean a lot to me if you did... In the above situation..... would you feel: A) Genuinely flattered. Clearly this person really likes you - and cares about you a great deal, and also has a high opinion of you. Oh Yay! B) Slightly perturbed by the whole thing since nobody is perfect and we are all human… so you might think this person is a bit delusional… a bit too idealistic… or maybe you might check out the synastry and think it’s the interaction between the two of you that's bringing out this “magical thinking" in them (e.g. hard Sun/Neptune aspects) C) Think they are a full blown narcissist who only cares about perfection and achievements (since they are also pretty fascinated by your achievements!)…
In this case, you think that they are acting exactly like the paragraph I posted below on NPD traits….
i.e. They only see you as narcissistic supply and are addicted to you, as opposed to being "in love" – and are only interested in you in as much as your so-called “perfection” bolsters their OWN image… (when they are with you!)...[/B]
I don't know if my astro-knowledge is sufficient to answer you completely, but I can answer to the multiple choice if that's ok .. 
Personally I would think b or c, perhaps leaning more towards c, if I had sufficient clue about it. :/
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Vajra
Moderator Posts: 1463
From: Europe
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted March 02, 2016 06:37 PM
Actually I've been in such situations and it would make me very worried based on past experience...  My answer would thus be between b) and c), maybe I would not assume a case of full-blown narcissism as such (there's too little info here to make that harsh a judgment) but definitely on the road to it, and definitely delusional. Not saying the person who was told these things isn't great though I'm sure they are, and that may be why someone would pick them as a counterpart for idealization. But a genuine appreciation can only grow from actually knowing another person in the first place, which requires actually seeing them, not just a projection in one's mind; and when we get down to brass tacks, everyone has dark sides and imperfections and if someone can't see that, then it's not genuine knowing, but idealization, which, taken to the extreme, is not healthy. IP: Logged |
UrsusBlack
Knowflake Posts: 69
From:
Registered: Dec 2015
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posted March 02, 2016 06:57 PM
I will definitely comment on this thread again later on when I have a bit more time to reply, but for now I'll say that my answer is B. However, when I've experienced these situations like this in the past I've noticed something else that I'd like to add. IP: Logged |
LaceyLeigh
Knowflake Posts: 645
From: New Jersey
Registered: Jul 2014
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posted March 02, 2016 07:53 PM
None of the above.. I'd assume that this person was just trying to butter me up, and I really wouldn't take it to heart if I knew they were saying that to everyone. It sounds like they are either easily influenced, hopefully for the better, or a classic bullshitter/people pleaser. Neither would seriously bother me, depending on how I felt about this person. It just sounds like fluff to me.IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 16150
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted March 02, 2016 11:10 PM
If I didn't like the guy and he was saying all that, it would be an alarm that he wasn't picking up on my signals. We would be on different wavelengths and it would be a problem. The relationship might not last, because of the drastic difference in opinions of each other.However I've been that much in love before and those terms would have felt comfortable for me to use, myself. I bristle at the thought of anyone taking that as a sign of me suffering from narcissism or any other disease. Yes I've put people on pedestals before. I always knew why they were there. Not many people won that spot, but they were especially important to me, and remain "idealized" because they embody some of my true, deep ideals. I see no danger or delusion in this. I think true love is unconditional and it means the person feels perfect to you, flaws and everything. IP: Logged |
Spongebob
Knowflake Posts: 401
From:
Registered: Nov 2015
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posted March 02, 2016 11:24 PM
I'd just assume they were in love with me and didn't want to hurt me or cause a fight by listing a series of my flaws . Plus when you love someone their flaws aren't a big issue to you anyway because there's so many other things about them that you love . and you want to cheer them on and celebrate their accomplishments when they succeed and feel proud of them and who they are as a person.In short i think he was just expressing genuine affection and you interpret it as something sinister. I can see why he got tired and didn't want to discuss it anymore , no matter what he said he d get slammed for it . Maybe you should ask yourself why you immediately assume any praise given to you is an attempt to manipulate you or a sign of mental issues or character flaws in the person doing the praising because it says more about how you see yourself than anything else . Then if he gives up on you or gets tired of you trying to convince him he s a monster and moves on then you'll get mad IP: Logged |
Spongebob
Knowflake Posts: 401
From:
Registered: Nov 2015
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posted March 02, 2016 11:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
If I didn't like the guy and he was saying all that, it would be an alarm that he wasn't picking up on my signals. We would be on different wavelengths and it would be a problem. The relationship might not last, because of the drastic difference in opinions of each other.However I've been that much in love before and those terms would have felt comfortable for me to use, myself. I bristle at the thought of anyone taking that as a sign of me suffering from narcissism or any other disease. Yes I've put people on pedestals before. I always knew why they were there. Not many people won that spot, but they were especially important to me, and remain "idealized" because they embody some of my true, deep ideals. I see no danger or delusion in this. I think true love is unconditional and it means the person feels perfect to you, flaws and everything.
Im exactly like that when i really iike someone, but if they responded like that i wouldn't like them for long!
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Faith
Knowflake Posts: 16150
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted March 03, 2016 12:09 AM
Yeah it looks very tragic to me just as a casual observer.If I told someone all that and they were looking up signs that I am mentally ill, I would wish they'd be up front and end the relationship. I wouldn't actually want that in my life...no offense to you, Odette, you know more than we do. IP: Logged |
Odette
Moderator Posts: 6693
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted March 03, 2016 02:42 AM
I think I'm being too analytical and picking on things because of the situation with my Bpd ex
It's like I'm seeing possible mental illness everywhere.
I need to somehow get past this. It's also the fact that I'm hung up on how things usually don't work out for me with Pisces Moon men... and I keep thinking that something is bound to go horribly wrong again. I'm being paranoid. IP: Logged |
Dreaminess
Knowflake Posts: 954
From: norway
Registered: Aug 2014
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posted March 03, 2016 03:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LaceyLeigh:
None of the above.. I'd assume that this person was just trying to butter me up, and I really wouldn't take it to heart if I knew they were saying that to everyone. It sounds like they are either easily influenced, hopefully for the better, or a classic bullshitter/people pleaser. Neither would seriously bother me, depending on how I felt about this person. It just sounds like fluff to me.
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Dreaminess
Knowflake Posts: 954
From: norway
Registered: Aug 2014
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posted March 03, 2016 03:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Spongebob:
I'd just assume they were in love with me and didn't want to hurt me or cause a fight by listing a series of my flaws . Plus when you love someone their flaws aren't a big issue to you anyway because there's so many other things about them that you love . and you want to cheer them on and celebrate their accomplishments when they succeed and feel proud of them and who they are as a person.In short i think he was just expressing genuine affection and you interpret it as something sinister. I can see why he got tired and didn't want to discuss it anymore , no matter what he said he d get slammed for it . Maybe you should ask yourself why you immediately assume any praise given to you is an attempt to manipulate you or a sign of mental issues or character flaws in the person doing the praising because it says more about how you see yourself than anything else . Then if he gives up on you or gets tired of you trying to convince him he s a monster and moves on then you'll get mad
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DopGang
Knowflake Posts: 2048
From: INTJ
Registered: Jun 2015
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posted March 03, 2016 07:33 AM
I agree that his behavior is suspicious. (Don't worry about those pointing the finger at you) The more that I thought about it I think B.
He's so focused on one half of your relationship that when asked about the other half he's left confused and unprepared to answer. My best friend of many years suffers from this. I myself have suffered delusional love a lot. (Venus square Neptune causing most of my delusional love) So I don't think there's anything intentional in the way he's behaving.
The problem comes in that the dream WILL break at some point. It's inevitable. When it does, one or both of you could end up totally devastated. So in his defense, there may be nothing "wrong" with him. He might just be a dreamer and not grounded enough at times. I don't think it's wrong of you to question it. When we're confused, we ask questions. Maybe multiple choice wasn't the best approach and sat wrong with a few. Oh well.  Maybe if you left "option D) other", people would feel better? 
If it were me, I would back out. I think you just have to try to ground him with firm but kind reality. However, in my opinion it's not really possible to ground him AND salvage a close relationship. It's far too easy to fall back into those delusions. IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 16150
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted March 03, 2016 07:49 AM
@OdetteWell he COULD be mentally ill. In this case it's just hard for me to see how what he said (that you're perfect) could lead you to suspect he's a narcissist. (Though you might be right.) It's none of my business but you asked for an outside perspective...from where I stand it sounds like this is not the type of guy you would choose for yourself? Sounds like you'd rather have one who is more grounded, logical, independent...and not a Pisces moon. Good luck, though.
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Vajra
Moderator Posts: 1463
From: Europe
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted March 03, 2016 12:00 PM
Just for the record, delusions about people are just a tiny part of what constitutes narcissiscm the disorder, so we should be careful about using that label. Other things that constitute that disorder include delusions of grandeur, a sense of entitlement, blatantly manipulative behavior, a tendency to exploit others for personal gain, a general lack of remorse, and often, all this coupled with a very charismatic public personality. They need constant attention and approval, like to be showered with praise, and only give it to receive it (forming 'mutual admiration societies' with receptive counterparts). In my personal experience with a full-blown narcissist (in a work relationship) who behaved like a textbook case, a kind of Jekyll-and-Hyde syndrome was also notable. He could not stand even the slightest hint of criticism. What's generally an important sign is their willingness to harm people and their lack of remorse. It's quite a terrible thing to suffer from really, and the whole problem seems to rest upon an inability to relate to others on an equal basis or even, to see others as real people rather than as puppets or mere extensions of their own self. Hence, their lack of empathy.So unless most, or at least several of the typical ingredients of malignant narcissism are actually observable in a person, one should not assume that someone who's maybe somewhat delusional in love is also automatically a narcissist. They might just be infatuated (which is arguably also not that healthy, but quite a different thing nevertheless). Many people suffer from it from time to time and it usually wears off at some point. Such a person could just as well have an entirely different sort of disorder, if any - or none at all. IP: Logged |
Elysia
Knowflake Posts: 941
From:
Registered: Aug 2015
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posted March 03, 2016 01:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
If I didn't like the guy and he was saying all that, it would be an alarm that he wasn't picking up on my signals. We would be on different wavelengths and it would be a problem. The relationship might not last, because of the drastic difference in opinions of each other.However I've been that much in love before and those terms would have felt comfortable for me to use, myself. I bristle at the thought of anyone taking that as a sign of me suffering from narcissism or any other disease. Yes I've put people on pedestals before. I always knew why they were there. Not many people won that spot, but they were especially important to me, and remain "idealized" because they embody some of my true, deep ideals. I see no danger or delusion in this. I think true love is unconditional and it means the person feels perfect to you, flaws and everything.
BINGO.  Especially the last sentence. I was wondering how I could even begin to explain what I feel about this, getting a tad frustrated - when I saw your post. And it put me at ease and made me smile. IP: Logged |
Elysia
Knowflake Posts: 941
From:
Registered: Aug 2015
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posted March 03, 2016 01:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
@OdetteIn this case it's just hard for me to see how what he said (that you're perfect) could lead you to suspect he's a narcissist. (Though you might be right.) It's none of my business but you asked for an outside perspective...from where I stand it sounds like this is not the type of guy you would choose for yourself? Sounds like you'd rather have one who is more grounded, logical, independent...and not a Pisces moon. Good luck, though.
I myself am very paranoid and analytical - but not in this way - when you like someone, the paranoia is along different lines. When you don't really like someone but wish you would or do like someone and wish you wouldn't, the paranoia takes the turn above. IMO, you *think* you like him, but maybe you really don't? You want to like him, but wish he was more like what you want him to be? I realize there may be a certain amount of predilection to interpreting things in a certain way because of your past experiences... That's understandable. The real question is, to what extent...? Whatever it is, someone's feelings/message getting so badly warped in reception, is perhaps even worse than rejection... P.S. Yeah, leaping from someone calling you perfect to narcissistic disorder is a bit of a stretch. It may very well imply one of the symptoms of that disorder (by your interpretation), but it's by no means the primary or even one of the primary indicators. Sorry, but what you're doing is not 'being analytical', it's called confirmation bias. IP: Logged |
Odette
Moderator Posts: 6693
From:
Registered: May 2012
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posted March 03, 2016 07:53 PM
I found my answers to all of this finally.
Wow.
It has taken me my whole life up until now at my Saturn return - to realise that I have some serious issues... and this is why I have attracted certain people (who have their own issues).And you were completely right Faith - that this isn't about my Capricorn Moon or their Pisces Moon... It's about having an unhealthy style of "emotional attachment"... and attracting men who likewise have emotional attachment problems.
The *signs* only show the "style" in which this happens... between us.
But the emotionally healthy version of the same Moon signs - would probably have a very happy and long-lasting relationship together. But at least now that I know what the issues are - I can work on them, and hopefully have more fulfilling and emotionally-balanced relationships. You have all helped me so much! You guys don't realise how much.
Like I can't even put it into words. And I can't thank you enough. I'll come back a bit later and explain, because I think I'll end up writing a novel lol.. Or I might make a new thread about this. But really - Thank you so much  IP: Logged |
yungang_grotto
Knowflake Posts: 1897
From: red river valley
Registered: Mar 2014
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posted March 03, 2016 08:45 PM
So good to hear that you're having a breakthrough, Odette! (hope that's an alright way to put it). Brings tears to my eyes reading your post ... It's such a beautiful thing when we have these insights. That these folks have helped you see it is wonderful Yay LL!!!  Being able to see our own patterns clearly helps so much in addressing them and changing them. Been experiencing some revelatory stuff about my own issues lately and have noticed that, Rumpelstiltskin stlye, when you call a thing by its true name you gain power over it... seeing ourselves clearly is so huge! IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 16150
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted March 03, 2016 10:09 PM
Wonderful, Odette. For what it's worth you've always seemed extremely well-adjusted to me. Moreso than most people. But I'll stop there before my flattery gets excessive Curious what you've learned...but no pressure. IP: Logged |
Faith
Knowflake Posts: 16150
From: Bella's Hair Salon
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted March 03, 2016 10:13 PM
And thanks, Elysia. You always steady me and make me feel like I belong. Much appreciated IP: Logged |
Ceridwen
Moderator Posts: 24443
From:
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted March 04, 2016 11:52 AM
Hmm, neither of these options. I would just have taken it as a compliment thinking that of course the guy was exaggerating and of course knowing I have flaws like anyone else just for the sake of emphasis of his sympathy for me exaggerating a little.
On the other hand a likely answer of mine to someone saying I was perfect would probably along the lines
"Just wait until you actually get to know me!" IP: Logged |
Lindaland
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