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Author Topic:   Sun/Saturn Midpoint (also a little treatise on midpoints for some reason)
yungang_grotto
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From: intimate sky dot net
Registered: Mar 2014

posted June 10, 2016 02:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yungang_grotto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Sun/Sat: Self-discipline, learning about and applying limitations and care "
(from michael munkasey)


I figure eventually (like maybe 10 years from now? Maybe sooner! Whenever free software that makes midpoint analysis truly accessible is widely being used), all the astrologers here on LL and elsewhere will be well versed in midpoints, and Folk Astrology... which I so love... will have fully embraced them so that we can check in with one another on how they've been experienced, etc. For now we're sort of still breaking the ice so to speak.

As with everything in astrology, I guess midpoints are very unique unto the chart holder and are "modified by everything else"... their manifestations are coloured very much by that which they're activated by, and when and how, and the planetary energy of each individual planet involved in a given midpoint as it relates to the chart, very likely...

At the same time though I often am amazed at the specificity of a single aspect, and midpoints are no different... they are such a powerful analytical tool exactly because they are very specific to the planetary energy involved and are focal points of the merging of two planetary energies. As such, despite the importance of chart synthesis blah blah blah, they can be used to great effect to evaluate how somebody or something affects us on very specific levels.

Take the Sun/Saturn midpoint, which involves all of the subtlety and complexity of a Sun/Saturn aspect but merges the two energies *completely.* It seems to be about applying long term effort to create truly substantial, significant, vital, viable things (this midpoint was very active, according to Cafe Astrology's midpoint weighting analysis, during the Apollo Moon Landing (if you believe that even happened ), the completion of the Trans-Continental Railroad (debatable whether that was really a good thing but for lots of people it was considered to be), and the first medicare patient being accepted.)

I have noticed some correlations between the energy of this midpoint and my experience of my current relationship so I just want to relate this and it'll be one for the books, and if anybody else has witnessed it's activity, especially in long term relationships (or short term!), or in your own charts, I would love to hear it.


How to check midpoints using astro.com


☆ If you're somewhat new to midpoints, just wanting to quickly note that you can check midpoints on astro.com by clicking Pullen/Astrolog and in the dropdown menu selecting Aspect/Mispoint Grid. Check out the degree of your Sun/Saturn midpoint and then consider how it's activated in your chart or by somebody else's/the composite, by conjunction square or opposition. I also really find a lot of value checking the semi and sesquisquares to the midpoints. You can create a Midpoint grid chart for your Davison relationship chart too, if you've entered the Davison as a natal chart on astro by using the date shown when you calculate one the regular way☆¤

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yungang_grotto
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From: intimate sky dot net
Registered: Mar 2014

posted June 10, 2016 02:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yungang_grotto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's Michael Munkasey's detailed musing on the Sun/Saturn midpoint from cafe astrology's Sample Midpoint Weighting Analysis. It shows us just how much energy and information a single midpoint can contain. They are so powerful and useful for in depth understanding.

https://cafeastrology.com/samplemidpointweightinganalysisreport.html

"Sun/Saturn Midpoint

These energies may seem to work counter to each other, but combine well and can enhance the overall quality of life when used wisely. They highlight the need for any dedication brought to patiently and thoroughly completing all endeavors. Persisting and following through to completion becomes very important. Not only achieving completion, but the attention and thoroughness given to each task is what can motivate others to appreciate the dedication and care shown. Perhaps doing the task took longer than expected, or cost more, but the finished product will probably be such that it will endure through time and stand on its own as a model of very good work. Seeing that all things are done correctly and thoroughly becomes important.

Often for efforts undertaken there will be an assumption that the outcome has to be practical. There has to be not only completion, but also a utility, a benefit. Learning patience when you want to rush through, or when you are pushed by others, is part of this combination’s lesson. Others may want “the quick and dirty” but you may not be satisfied until the “quick and dirty” is done correctly and also has some practical value. This is not the salesperson’s emphasis, this is the producer’s emphasis. There should always be pride taken in product. It becomes important to produce not only what is originally asked for, but perhaps going a step or two beyond that. Personal pride will often outshine the bare minimum requested. Expect better, produce more — that is one part of this combination.

There can probably be many barriers and obstacles to overcome in life. Moving past obstacles or over barriers is part of the lesson here. These probably have been thrown in your way to teach you some lesson about persistence and quality. It is through learning how to overcome and/or work through these barriers or obstacles that you learn how to live in peace with this combination. Sometimes you just have to persist through difficulties, working each out one by one to achieve your intended goal. It is in the working through that you learn and grow as a person. Keep in mind that it is not always the splashy or showy which wins, but that which produces utility.

Some lessons learned in life may turn out to be expensive. You may start out with a goal or idea, and work on it for some time, only to eventually learn that your initial assumptions were wrong and you need to start over. This is simply one lesson along the way. It is not the fact that you were wrong, but that you were able to admit a mistake and then work to correct that. Eventually you should succeed, but however that success comes you probably will not be satisfied until the effort has brought a lesson well learned, at least internally. Even through setbacks you probably will remain happy when you can see that one or two obstacles will not deter you from achieving overall success. This combination does not guarantee satisfaction or success — it asks for persistence and stability.

Sun/Saturn Insights; Issues to Deal With; and/or Recurring Themes:

Motivated by Practical Considerations; Enhances Pessimism; Enjoys a Long Life

Tones down the Notoriety; Your Ego feels Hampered; Taking Special Precautions

Restricts Individuality; Seeks Stabilization within Self; Costly Penalties

Remains Happy Despite Setbacks; Abstains from Celebrations; Austere Approval

Calculated Approval; Hesitations while Celebrating; Wasteful Commitments

Holds Confidence in Corrections Made; A Person with a Methodical Style

Lively Activities bring Frustrations; Successful Persistence; Duty Comes First

Commitments to Being Effective; Lasting Treasures; Lessens Enjoyment from Life

Deliberately Followed Formalities; Formidable Obstacles to Overcome, Work upon

Encountering Special Restrictions; Discipline Meted out with Determination

The Importance of Silence; Cheerful but also Sad; Serious Motivations"

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yungang_grotto
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Posts: 2714
From: intimate sky dot net
Registered: Mar 2014

posted June 10, 2016 03:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yungang_grotto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In composite my beloved friend D and I have

Sun/Saturn = Neptune (yep) (a quite exact conjunction)

and

Sun/Saturn = Moon (this is a semisquare to the midpoint from the Moon)

My personal Saturn/Sun midpoint is square my nodes and part of a melee of midpoints clustered on and around 10 Sagittarius, where his descendant ruler Jupiter sits. So he gets me excited about Sun/Saturn matters (as well as Moon/Pluto matters and all the rest... )

Guess where his Sun/Saturn is? Well 26 Cap, doesn't look too exciting for me 26 of anything cardinal.. however the points which semi/sesquisquare 26 Cap are... 11 degrees of mutable signs. So his Sun/Saturn contacts his OWN Jupiter and my North Node as well.

Not surprised.

But back to the composite for now...

Some readings of Sun/Saturn= Neptune are middlingly positive but I want to take a hard nosed look at it.

Obviously as we are both Neptunian the application of our energies towards nebulous and intangible goals is sensical on some weird level. At the same time when Neptune is channeled through a rational goal based perception--as every aspect will be sooner or later in the course of a long term relationship--we will likely have difficulty grounding or making any solid sense out of what exactly it is that we are trying to create--which is exactly what this midpoint thrives on. However as we acknowledge and bring into focus more and more the importance that spiritual experiences have for both of us we grow in solidity as a couple. So that's nice, and it seems that the more explicit this becomes as a goal the more secure we may become. It is encoded in our personal midpoints that this is fulfilling indeed for us; for others it might be too vague and disappointing to have this combo.

Of course with the moon contacting this midpoint our emotional well being as a couple hinges somehow on these long term sustainability problems, which necessitate a certain kind of coolness and restraint. This is so.

Here are John Sandbach's writings on this one:

"Planets activating the Sun/Saturn midpoint

Principle: Difficulty in developing self-confidence. The slow attainment of goals through hard work. The more one focuses on spirituality the more confident one becomes. A need for discipline when working toward goals. Questioning the meaning of life. The need to understand the meaning and purpose of the difficulties and limitations one encounters in life.

Process: The realization of the meaning and purpose of all limitations and difficulties in one's life, so that they are approached as learning processes and assimilated fully so they do not have to be repeated.

Moon: Security comes from having definite goals and/or working toward them in a disciplined manner. An emotional need to understand the meaning of life. Periodic moods in which one feels a lack of self-confidence. To organize one's life around a central purpose gives one a feeling of security. 

Mercury: To communicate in a purposefully careful manner. A lack of confidence when communicating. Holding steadily to a definite purpose when communicating. A mind that is able to focus on goals and shut out everything else.

Venus: A lack of self-confidence in love relationships. One who appreciates the need for a careful and gradual attainment of goals. The tendency to think that one is less attractive and/or valuable than one really is. Appreciation of the deeper spiritual significance of life.

Mars: Lack of self-confidence when asserting oneself. Doing things in a carefully controlled and purposefully organized manner, always with an eye on long-range results. Working too hard depletes vitality.

Jupiter: Enthusiasm for the patient and persistent attainment of goals and for working toward them in a focused and organized manner. One's enthusiasm is inhibited by a lack of self-confidence. Enthusiasm for finding the deeper spiritual meanings at work in life.

Chiron: Your energy helps people to feel better about themselves by becoming aware of the spiritual meanings behind the various hardships in their life. 

Uranus: Original and unique ideas concerning the deeper spiritual meanings of life. A genius for perceiving meaning in structures and the way that meaning itself is structured. One derives a feeling of freedom when pursuing goals in a disciplined manner.

Neptune: Subtle insights into the deeper meanings of life. Uncertainty about how to structure one's life so as to meet goals. Being too idealistic about the self causes a lack of self-confidence. Idealism impels one to deny present gratifications so that energy is conserved to reach meaningful goals. 

Pluto: A rigid egotism that is obsessive. To be intensely disciplined. A realization of the deeper meanings of life transforms one's existence. The relentless feeling that life lacks meaning, and a desire to find deep meaning in it.

Node: The need to learn how to be more disciplined in this lifetime. Possibly the tendency to associate with people who lessen one's self confidence, and a need to connect with others who help one to attain a true and real self-confidence.

Ascendant: One's outer demeanor has a rigidly egotistical quality, or a lack of confidence, sometimes with the latter causing the former. One comes across as having important ideas of great wisdom to impart to others.

Midheaven: The slow and patient attainment of career success. To be known in the world for one's bringing to light the deeper spiritual truths of life. Lack of confidence concerning ones work, with a tendency to gain greater confidence in it as one grows older."

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Ceridwen
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posted June 10, 2016 04:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My natal:

Venus square Sun/Saturn 0°19
MC conjunct Sun/Saturn 1°24


composite:

Moon square Sun/Saturn 1°16
Mars conjunct Sun/Saturn 1°00
(apex of a minor triangle to the Sun-Saturn-trine)


Davison:

Moon conjunct Sun/Saturn 0°10
Node square Sun/Saturn 1°19
Lilith semisquare Sun/Saturn 0°34


Nahh, that is all too serious and glue-y and stuffy. Gimme some erratic Uranus and unreliable Neptune and overdoing Jupiter now.

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Ceridwen
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posted June 10, 2016 04:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
Well 26 Cap, doesn't look too exciting for me 26 of anything cardinal.. however the points which semi/sesquisquare 26 Cap are... 11 degrees of mutable signs. So his Sun/Saturn contacts his OWN Jupiter and my North Node as well.

N


Mr Sag`s Venus is there, on 25°55 Cap to be precise, on the midpoint of my natal square between Neptune-Node to Jupiter, of my natal novile between Moon to Venus, of my natal biseptile of Mars to Juno. lol

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Orange
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posted June 10, 2016 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Orange     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have this in play in my synastry but it's not a walk in the park.
He has a tight Sun-Saturn opposition in his chart and my Venus lands like a butterfly on top of that thing! Conj Sat, oppose Sun ( and square his Nodes). Of course it is a part of the midpoint picture, too.

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Ceridwen
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posted June 10, 2016 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ceridwen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I always wonder how midpoint pictures might express differently, considering the underlying existent aspects, if there are any.

For example
in your synastry it is made up of squares and oppositions.

in our composite it is a trine of Sun-Saturn with sextiles to mars.


I do not have an answer yet, but it`s been a cause for wondering for me.

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yungang_grotto
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From: intimate sky dot net
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posted June 10, 2016 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yungang_grotto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes I wonder about that same thing. Well, everything is modified by everything else right? Seems worth taking into consideration.. for us in composite the Sun and Saturn are very widely sextile (Saturn 1 Sag Sun 6 Aqua). In our case then the midpoint picture is somewhat more active or precise, I think, and gives us info almost maybe about the meaning of the wideness of the aspect maybe...

I mean... we don't throw out aspects as soon as we begin dealing with midpoints (or do we--is it a totally different system of understanding and thought, based around the 90 degree dial? I think that could be effectively argued perhaps).

Yet my mind prefers to tend towards the notion that it all exists and matters simultaneously and weaves a cohesive unique picture of relating which takes all these factors into account.

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yungang_grotto
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From: intimate sky dot net
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posted June 10, 2016 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yungang_grotto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Orange:
I have this in play in my synastry but it's not a walk in the park.
He has a tight Sun-Saturn opposition in his chart and my Venus lands like a butterfly on top of that thing! Conj Sat, oppose Venus ( and square his Nodes). Of course it is a part of the midpoint picture, too.

Oh you brave butterfly!!

You're probably rreeaally important to him... when Venus sticks around in a configuration like that I think it's a blessing... I might be colouring my opinion based on some other things I've seen. I can only imagine how hard it must be to be in a relationship with a Sun-Saturn opposition person where it squares the nodes!! (well I'm with a Mars-Saturn opposition person and it is along my Asc/Desc so I kind of have an idea).

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yungang_grotto
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From: intimate sky dot net
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posted June 10, 2016 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yungang_grotto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ceridwen:
My natal:

Venus square Sun/Saturn 0°19
MC conjunct Sun/Saturn 1°24


You don't say

quote:

composite:

Moon square Sun/Saturn 1°16
Mars conjunct Sun/Saturn 1°00
(apex of a minor triangle to the Sun-Saturn-trine)


Oh it sounds so vital and shiny, that minor triangle with Mars in there! Certainly it seems, from this information alone, that the energy is there to sustain the connection over the long term (as we have seen), and to do it fairly joyfully. I think that's maybe the difference when we're dealing with trines and sextiles in midpoint pictures... at the risk of being simplistic. it maybe tells us whether the energy is really flowy or really tense...

quote:

Davison:

Moon conjunct Sun/Saturn 0°10
Node square Sun/Saturn 1°19
Lilith semisquare Sun/Saturn 0°34


Nahh, that is all too serious and glue-y and stuffy. Gimme some erratic Uranus and unreliable Neptune and overdoing Jupiter now.


Ahh you've got the moon involved too... heh yeah it is pretty glue-y and borrring isn't it? With his Jupiter on my Sun/Saturn and involved with his own, it makes me really see where he gets tripped up trying to express that Jupiter (it does come out sometimes to excellent effect! Such a joy when we really let loose and go all the way in every way ... he's just not always able to really shine in these conditions... he is mature and aware in his Jupiter expression, and maybe considers it imperative as well to a healthy long term sustainable project... to be happy that is... to have a strong philosophical backbone which supports genuine joy and freedom... works for that...).

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yungang_grotto
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From: intimate sky dot net
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posted June 10, 2016 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yungang_grotto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And Lilith and Node in Davison! Well... quite!

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Orange
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From: Georgia
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posted June 10, 2016 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Orange     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
Oh you brave butterfly!!

You're probably rreeaally important to him... when Venus sticks around in a configuration like that I think it's a blessing.. I can only imagine how hard it must be to be in a relationship with a Sun-Saturn opposition person where it squares the nodes!! ).


)

He is a piece of work, indeed.
My 8th house Venus actually lands right on his skipped step. It feels very past life-ish!!

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