posted March 29, 2020 08:44 PM            

I have been reading a lot of things about Lilith here (BML) but I haven't seen my question. I have two bombs to throw. I was wondering if you think is possible that a person helps another "touching" their lilith in a synastry. Not the sexual stuff (we all know about that, we read about that a lot), but the spiritual/personal stuff.

I will explain.

I have a relationship with a girl. We are women, but I am the dominant (if you wanna name it). I have moon in 17° of scorpio (in a wide conjunction with my 13° jupiter, uh) and she has her BML in 12° of scorpio. Since it's the moon we're talking about whenever I go into websites I get it's a wide moon-lilith conjunction. I have read things about lilith conjunct moon and yes, I get kinda obssesive with her, and I think she feels the same about me, even when she doesn't admit it (LOL). BUT in a normal way. I only got the chance to look into her natal chart now, after one year and two months of relationship (that's a lot of time for me, I tend to be the one who leaves when men/women who don't accept me as I am, I have unaspected sun and venus in aries). The interesting thing is... this person has OCD. She has been getting treatment. She gets really anxious when it comes to the possibility of being mean to other people or not being enough. And she has to follow a detailed schedule, for some things. She has control issues and anxiety when it comes to letting go. She gets nervous and anxious also when the year is about to end, she rejects the sensation of something coming to an end.

Some months ago she told me I help her without realizing to overcome some limitations she has, like talking to new people, stop believing she's bad for claiming her rights and do what she wants, feeling down because when she lost projects that were important for her... well, I saw opportunity there and I tend to bring new ideas from ashes and I gave her ideas about what to do and bring out something better than the original project, etc. I also tell her and explain to her why I think an end is always necessary, a new start. She's so literal and concrete ans I am so into non-concrete ideas LOL. If she doesn't see the "material" start she gets bad, while for me it's the opposite. I always "translate" ideas that are non-concrete to her. She has capricorn sun/venus and cancer moon. Before I got her natal chart I thought she had pisces moon, since my experience with cancerian people left me with the impression that I attracted bad cancerians (since the ones I got involved with were the type to make a fuss if you work and don't have time for them, even if you give them what's possible for you and you also tell them you're suffering because you don't have time to see your own family), so I was really surprised, and I started wondering why she felt I was helping her instead of complaining just like other cancerian people I got involved with before. I read scorpio BML makes people to have a "shadow" in scorpio traits, to get stuck into things, to be... you know, never want to let go, afraid of change and transformation, and so on. And since I have scorpio moon and I have had to deal with A LOT of people whose pluto is conjunct my moon (pluto generation), I kinda deal in a good way with scorpio traits. At least that's what I like to think, I feel my aries side is useful for not getting stuck in toxic relationships. Deep commitment and loyalty, yes. Manipulation, no thank you. I really feel it when someone wants to make me do as they want, and I don't buy that.

Yes, sexuality is tantric and amazing, and I think I am so into her because even when her sun/venus in capricorn, her moon in cancer AND her mars in libra are ATTACKING my unaspected sun and my venus in aries, I don't get hit because her saturn is exactly conjunct my venus, my vertex and my own BML (yes, I have natal BML conjunct my venus, and yes, she has saturn squaring her own sun, venus and moon) and she has made me more responsible. I never felt this need to commit to anyone, I only have uranus and neptune on earth LOL So she keeps me in my place. She's always kindly supporting me and I will pay her back with my whole life. It's really difficult for me to trust entirely someone, I had trouble with this when I started to notice I was falling too deep for her. We protect the other a lot, maybe because of the water wide trine (her cancer moon, my scorpio moon, jupiter and pluto and my pisces mercury, mars and saturn). And yes, her BML is in that vibe, since it's in scorpio and is part of the trine. And I noticed she also helped me making me feel more secure about myself. I feel as if she's stepping into my shadows and making everything clear with her light. Due to my unaspected sun and almost unaspected venus(only uranus squaring it, uh) I had/have some struggles with the affective side, and some identity crisis that led me to deep depression like... ten years ago. So it's really meaningful for me that I have her support with this and she doesn't judge me because I'm all over my own beliefs and wanna be myself. I am surprised because even when her sun/venus is in a sign that squares mine, we don't get into fights and always try to understand our differences. I have juno in libra and she has juno in scorpio, I'm not sure if that says something.

Now that I have explained both of our BML stuff and feelings, my questions are: do you think is possible that a person could help the other to overcome their shadows like that touching their BML in synastry? Or maybe it's because it's saturn we're talking about? Or is because my jupiter is involved? Conjunct her BML and maybe softening the impact on my moon. I've never felt she's dangerous for me or anything like that. I mean, I'm scorpio moon, I am ALWAYS feeling everyone getting near is dangerous (LOOOL) but after the period of time when I struggled with my feelings for her, I surrendered and started to trust into her, and I feel more safe that I have ever felt.

I also told her some time ago our love was not eros or agápe, but a mix of both. And everything was before I knew how her natal chart was LOL

AND HERE COMES THE SECOND BOMB. I started wondering IF maybe I don't get the bad side of her BML and mine because we are both women, and even when I am the "dominant" in our relationship it's only sexual, I've never felt the need to make her feel less than me. I recognize and always tell her how she obviously has power over me and I love getting drown into that. She says it's the other way and she loves she's mine as I am hers. Maybe it's about recognizing her power without fear. I am not afraid of her power, I don't feel less than her because she has this power over me. I submit happily(????) And I manage to make her feel it's okay to be bad sometimes, and losing, and changing, and getting absorbed by someone. I would never judge her for accepting her own mess and chaos.

Maybe it's because of scorpio influence?

What is the reason for this? Do you think a man could tame lilith empowering her? That men could stop fearing submitting voluntarily to fear itself? Or maybe I can do it because I am woman and that's it? Personally, I think it's about personality more than gender, BUT then I remember BML for women is her identity and for men is what they fear... Or maybe a man who has more freedom traits (scorpio, aquarius, you name it) could overcome the bad side of his own lilith?... I wanna get more opinions about this and the other questions above. If you think it's possible to help BML to light their own shadows, and if it's possible, which planets can help to do that. Maybe because it's saturn and the moon in my synastry it's possible and with mars would've been the other way... I don't know.

I am sorry if everything is confusing. Feel free to ask whatever questions you have in mind, I have pisces mercury, so I feel like I made a mess of explanation. I am also sorry if I made spelling mistakes english is not my first language. However, I do understand when reading it, so I will be reading your opinions about this and maybe some advice/insight you could give me about the synastry aspects I explained. I would be really thankful for that.

posted March 29, 2020 09:07 PM            

I've always seen Lilith as the sensory instinct of a person (male or female, but typically it's posited as 'female' because instinct and intuition is typically lauded as feminine). Lilith in a chart, depending on aspects and placements, is where we MUST trust our instincts and gut. Whether something feels right or not, regardless of logic or external forces.

So say, if a friend is like 'hey come meet this person, they're wonderful you'll love them' and the minute you meet them you have a visceral 'nope' reaction, trust that. It's essentially your own chemistry telling you what's up, and what to avoid.

Lilith is very instinctual, and not always very 'logic brain' intellectual-- meaning it can be hard to put into words to explain why something feels a certain way. It just IS or IS NOT. And it very much is a receptive sense (hence, yin/feminine), and every human has the capability.

Tom Jacobs (TDJacobs on youtube) has many videos discussing the Lilith archetype and process that people with dominant Lilith energy go through to live with it, and I highly recommend!

In your case, the only time Lilith would be seen as 'here's the bad side of Lilith' is when the knowing that Lilith has is abused, rejected or dominated over. No one likes feeling controlled or like they are forced into power dynamic games without their consent- and often, men (especially men raised with patriarchal values) have a REALLY hard time not unconsciously pushing all those buttons.

Often the women with very dominant Lilith energy are more 'known' in the world as 'problematic' because they will absolutely refuse to play to what society says or thinks they should do. Not necessarily in a Uranian way, where things are out of the box normal standards-- Lilith energy may be more prone to working within the societal boundaries to their own gain. In a more unhealthy/negative sense, this could be seen in the sense of using men for their wealth or ability to provide while still perpetually seeing them as 'below' to reflect back what those men typically see women as. (I'm off on a tangent, but this is a great example of unhealthy Lilith energy).

Also, make sure to be using True (Osculating Lilith) in the charts, and not Mean Lilith, which is often more of an inaccurate reading due to the forced averaging out of the point's more erratic orbit- the point of Lilith is to let the energy exist and trust it, but not to let it dominate you out of fear).

-- EDIT: forgot to actually answer the question lmao

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do you think is possible that a person could help the other to overcome their shadows like that touching their BML in synastry? Or maybe it's because it's saturn we're talking about? Or is because my jupiter is involved? Conjunct her BML and maybe softening the impact on my moon. I've never felt she's dangerous for me or anything like that. I mean, I'm scorpio moon, I am ALWAYS feeling everyone getting near is dangerous (LOOOL) but after the period of time when I struggled with my feelings for her, I surrendered and started to trust into her, and I feel more safe that I have ever felt.

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Surrendering to your own feelings is an excellent take here. If your instincts are saying to trust her, then trust yourself on that. The thing as well though, especially given all that Scorpio, is make sure you are maintaining healthy boundaries. Things can get blurred with Moon/Lilith at times-- and I will say that it probably does help that you are both women in this instance (although this may also depend on whether either of you embody masculine or feminine energy more). Saturn and Jupiter as well are an excellent addition to have in all this. Saturn provides the grounds for structural integrity (remember, Saturn doesn't care how you go about finding harmony, so long as it's found) and Jupiter gives for buoyancy and the ability to see the bigger picture (just don't forget and end up ignoring smaller details or 'little things' that may build up over time). If you both have an instinct to trust and have good communication, then Lilith is nothing but a powerhouse of instinctual attraction and love.

posted March 30, 2020 10:07 AM            

You got me thinking. What you said with men raised with patriarchal values... Before I was in this relationship, I dated a guy whose father abandoned him when he was a child, so he grew up taking care of his mother and his grandmother. He had mars in 1° taurus and since I have my venus/lilith in 29° aries, sparks flied when we met. We had been talking via internet first (he was from another country), and when we met he tried to kiss me (lmao) and it was so weird, then he woke up (he was acting as if he was hypnotized or something) and he said sorry. He was very ashamed. After a couple of months I noticed that, in a subtle way, he wanted me to... I don't know how to say this. To be a type of woman that could make things easier for him, and the problem was that what he wanted implied to "stop worrying him with my stuff" and "be more home-like" so that he could focus on his career. I stopped the dating thing. In good terms, I told him how I felt and he respected it. What makes me curious is that it seems the patriarchal values in his case were really unconscius. He didn't look down into women, he wanted to take care of women because that's what he did all his life since childhood. I don't know if he realized he was leading me slowly to be more like his mother and grandma. I saw that and I thought "He is the type who wants me to depend on him and quit my dreams so that he could get his, I smell trouble here, hm". The thing is that before dating me he had had experiences with free women too. He was attracted to aries women (he was libra rising), but once he dated them, he started to guide them to please his cancerian venus, so that they could be his ideal woman I guess.

But then I was the feminine part, and with this girl I am the masculine part more, hm.

However, I was reading everything really serious here and then I read "forgot to actually answer the question" and I laughed so hard lol You made my day kahhdhdjdn. About Sapho, I will keep in mind that, and never mind the fact that "gal pals" came to my mind too lmao

I have a question for you though. Actually, two. You have lilith conjunct mercury in scorpio. First, have you felt that maybe your lilith is neutralizing some of your mercurian energy? Since I have a bit of trouble dealing with my venusian side, I was wondering if it's because I have it in conjunction with Lilith or if it's due to the square uranus is making with that venus, hm. Do you feel Lilith makes a bit "dark" or maybe more sharp your mercury? And the second thing is: how do you feel about scorpio stuff? Do you have a "shadow" about scorpio things? I ask this because even when my lover has this in her chart, I don't know if it's just Lilith creating a shadow or her capricorn influence (that makes her non-instinctual and refrains her Lilith energy, the OCD makes her really prone to structure and I don't know if that's what is making Lilith energy to get stuck).

posted March 30, 2020 03:30 PM            

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Originally posted by SolInaspectado:
I saw that and I thought "He is the type who wants me to depend on him and quit my dreams so that he could get his, I smell trouble here, hm". The thing is that before dating me he had had experiences with free women too. He was attracted to aries women (he was libra rising), but once he dated them, he started to guide them to please his cancerian venus, so that they could be his ideal woman I guess.

I have a question for you though. Actually, two. You have lilith conjunct mercury in scorpio. First, have you felt that maybe your lilith is neutralizing some of your mercurian energy? Since I have a bit of trouble dealing with my venusian side, I was wondering if it's because I have it in conjunction with Lilith or if it's due to the square uranus is making with that venus, hm. Do you feel Lilith makes a bit "dark" or maybe more sharp your mercury? And the second thing is: how do you feel about scorpio stuff? Do you have a "shadow" about scorpio things? I ask this because even when my lover has this in her chart, I don't know if it's just Lilith creating a shadow or her capricorn influence (that makes her non-instinctual and refrains her Lilith energy, the OCD makes her really prone to structure and I don't know if that's what is making Lilith energy to get stuck).

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Hahahhaha I almost didn't clock it myself until I went back and re-read the initial post, whoops.

And yeah, I understand that example with your ex very well. It's not always so sinister even- it can sometimes just be the case of a man not realising that while he is absolutely one with everything as we all are, he also is an individual- as we all are. Lilith just GETS that individual part. There's usually no question of it. Sometimes the seeing us all as one can be hazy if she's lost in the instinct, but typically Lilith energy can recognise the same in others and respect that, as long as it's mutual. (I would wonder if and where your ex's Lilith is, and possibly where his Priapus was to counterbalance. Lilith wants that independence, Priapus typically wants to merge and have that one-ness with a partner. That's my guess why they're usually opposing.)

Hm. Neutralising the Mercurian energy is hard to say. I have a fair amount of Gemini energy as well (actually, my personal planets are all Scorp/Gem, so there's a fair amount. I would say it makes it more intense, if anything. I know I have an incredibly powerful mind, but I also know I don't always have a grasp on it. I often know things without knowing how, which can be awkward when I know things I probably shouldn't-- and then more awkward if it does/doesn't get brought up. Usually not brought up, or met with some pretty extreme reactions when it is. Lilith sees right to the animal-core of things, I think.

The downside of Mercury/Lilith is that the mind works incredibly fast and can 'flow' really well, but slowing down to actually explain the process can short-circuit things. I end up feeling blocked and somewhat stupid because everything just becomes a big 'blank' in the mind, and it all goes right to the heart. (That could be because my Moon is on the IC, but from what I've read, this is typical for Mercury/Lilith anyway).

In your case, hmm. I would probably put more stock into the square from Uranus to Venus. Lilith and Venus together would be a strong instinctual understanding of your values, when they're being or not being met, etc. And the added square from Uranus would make those values even more wild. Or the other way- you would expect those wild values in a partner so you can ground yourself. Uranian energy is wildcard energy, but it's just electricity looking for a place to ground itself. Do that and you've channelled it, I guess!

How do I feel about Scorpio stuff .. lmao, honestly I'm not sure. I have so much Scorpio energy, but it only tends to come out with other people, so me on my own it can be hard to see. Although ... I mean, given the massive responses I've given in this post lmao, you can see a good example of 'here, intense info dump', which is definitely my biggest Scorpio trait (I think). Maybe dark in the sense that I can mentally 'see in the dark', perhaps. It's hard to say because my Lilith is also conjunct the rest of my Stellium (Sun, Venus, Pluto) which means that it gives an instinct to the wild understanding of psychology I have. (I could say it feels like I was born knowing it, but tbh I have no idea).

I think I need clarification on what you mean by shadow? I tend to see it as what we react to when we're feeling things- people being the trigger, but they're still our own emotions, so we project it out. I guess that may be what you mean lol. I definitely have issues of that. I have some pretty wildly intense emotions at times, and depending on who the trigger is, and what the emotion is, I can get pretty attached to certain people. But that also means I have to be really on the ball in KNOWING where my shadow is, what it's doing and whether I'm letting it dictate for me or not. Lots of trial and error there, over the years.

I would also say I think having all the Capricorn energy would hugely influence what Lilith energy is expressed. OCD style is typically pretty Earthy because external control is a way of dealing with the intensity of emotion (and hoo-boy, Caps feel things intensely). They're usually pretty aware of it, but don't always know how to deal with it. The hard part about Lilith is that it's usually REALLY INTENSE emotion that needs to just ... be felt through and not reacted to. (Gonna suggest those TDJacobs videos again, especially this one which talks about the 9 stages of processing Lilith emotions. (Typically Lilith energy is highly rejected when we're growing up, especially if it's prominent in a woman's chart).

Copied from the Bio of that video;

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The 9 stages, as detailed in the book Lilith: Healing the Wild:
1. Asserting Equality
2. Meeting Attempts to Dominate or Edit Us
3. Flight
4. Separation
5. Rage
6. Grieving and Mourning
7. Accepting Responsibility
8. Recommitting to What’s Important
9. Re-entering the World

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posted March 31, 2020 12:11 AM            

I understand what you say about mercury/lilith, it makes sense that your mind becomes more reactive in a certain way and slowness is hard to bear with, hm. And I was amazed because that must be really tiring sometimes. I was also amazed (and scared lol) because you got it right about my values. This is a bit embarassing because I am really into values, but not conventional ones at all, but what I feel it's right. And I remember really well the time when my mate said what she liked about me. She said she admired how I was so into my beliefs, and I went into cry baby mode and had an emotional breakdown. Of all the things she could have said, she said the only thing no one never told me before. Actually, is the one thing that always caused me trouble before lol I was so prepared in case people told me that world is not a place for correct things, that only silly people have honour and moral codes, that everyone lies, that I can't change anything saying what's fair, etc etc. I was waiting so much that kind of impression, that I was not ready for that. It hit me hard.

Talking about your stellium in scorpio made me wonder if you feel as if everything is mixing inside you. I kinda get that feeling with my pisces mini stellium, and I guess that having Lilith in a scorpio stellium is really difficult to handle o_o About "shadow", yes, I meant that blind spot we can not see and project in others, then we show a bit and we think is the other person making us this way when that person is actually bringing out of us that hidden stuff. And I guess you're right. Trial and error, trial and error. Pain is always necessary for personal growing.

About capricorn, do you think her cancer moon has something to do with it? I don't know how you call this figure, but her capricorn venus (which is conjunct neptune, but different signs) is opposite her moon in cancer. The aries saturn squares both and also is opposite her mars in libra. This mars also squares her cancer moon and her venus is a wide orb. I don't think it counts but still she has a lot to go through (a lot of squares and oppsitions, the only trine jupiter/pallas in pisces with her moon). I wonder if maybe the fact that my venus is where her saturn is makes any difference. Sometimes she's too harsh on herself, maybe my venus gives a different reaction/feeling. I tend to make her relax a bit when she gets anxius, like staying all the night soothing her or singing to her so that she could get calm and sleep, in a sweet way. Could that be venus working? Aka my venus being useful once in my life lmao. Also her Lilith has only two aspects: a square to uranus and a sextile to her sun. If saturn is the ruler of capricorn, what happens when your aries saturn restricts the planets you have in capricorn? Does it blocks them? Or maybe makes them even more capricornian?

I will add something I just noticed now: her juno is conjunct my north node, zero degrees. Two months ago we had a symbolical marriage. I never thought I would do that in my whole life, but I did it. Then my pluto is conjunct her chiron, could that be considered bad, a generational planet with chiron?

This is getting really long, but I can't stop telling you I LOVED THE VIDEO, THANK YOU. I told my gf about it and she said it looked interesting for her but she thinks that sometimes people are not prepared to go into that process. That is a bit scary. We had a conversation about it, hm. She has told me before that is painful for her when people try to make her do things when she doesn't have control over those things, like her anxiety or the OCD. And I don't know if I should be stubborn about this issue, so I just talk to her really subtlely and slowly. She's also stubborn though lol

I am sorry for the long text. I really got into everything you said uwu

posted March 31, 2020 02:39 AM            

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Originally posted by SolInaspectado:
Actually, is the one thing that always caused me trouble before lol I was so prepared in case people told me that world is not a place for correct things, that only silly people have honour and moral codes, that everyone lies, that I can't change anything saying what's fair, etc etc. I was waiting so much that kind of impression, that I was not ready for that. It hit me hard.

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This is so sweet! I've heard a few times about things like this happening, but usually a big emotional reaction like that is a good thing; relieving the grief of rejection is an exceptionally Lilith like trait when it finds genuine acceptance from the external as well as the internal.

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Talking about your stellium in scorpio made me wonder if you feel as if everything is mixing inside you. -- Trial and error, trial and error. Pain is always necessary for personal growing.

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I thought a bit more about it, and I think in my case, having all the Scorpio in the 8th (actually, Sun and Venus are in the 7th, Pluto is on the cusp of the 8th, but man those house lines blur)-- Most of my experience with my shadow is that I am very painstakingly aware of it. I've never felt good about projecting onto others because I can see it clearly happening, and my conscious ain't letting that fly for very long. That could also be because it's Mercury that has the Lilith conjunction, giving my conscious/lower mind (the chatter thoughts) the instinctual edge. Not that I haven't struggled with my shadow, but I typically shut down in scenarios where I am unsure how to express withOUT projecting (and that isn't great either, makes for a lot of confusion and projection from other people). I think maybe I just lucked out lmao having the 7/8th houses full of all the mixing.

Actually it's neat you said mixing, because the process of integrating emotions is (I think) called Alchemy? At least that's how I see it.

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About capricorn, do you think her cancer moon has something to do with it? If saturn is the ruler of capricorn, what happens when your aries saturn restricts the planets you have in capricorn? Does it blocks them? Or maybe makes them even more capricornian?

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It sounds like she has some T-Square aspects going on, so that could be pretty neat to look into (I actually just posted about them in the Astrology 2.0 forum). It can give a lot of energy that needs expressing. And hm, Saturn in Aries in square to Capricorn placements could give a little bit extra friction in learning to deal with internal boundaries. IE, understanding how to deal with their own emotions on the inside, and not letting it overwhelm them with pressure. -- However, since Saturn is in Aries (and your own in Pisces I think, from your bio?) you're both yet to go through your first Saturn Return. Typically Saturn energy is a big '?' in how to handle before the first return because it's literally your first rodeo dealing with it. The key is just ... figuring out how you want to do it. Find your own harmony, whatever works for YOU personally. Saturn doesn't care how you find harmony, just that you do.

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I will add something I just noticed now: her juno is conjunct my north node, zero degrees. Two months ago we had a symbolical marriage. I never thought I would do that in my whole life, but I did it. Then my pluto is conjunct her chiron, could that be considered bad, a generational planet with chiron?

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Juno has to do with, hm... How we are in partnerships. The give and the take, how we compromise and collaborate. I would even go so far as to say Juno can be the harder parts of loving someone. It's what we sometimes have to sacrifice for those we love- but the key here is making the CHOICE for it, deciding consciously what you want to commit to overall, and not just letting it happen to you. I would say with her being the Juno person, you'll be the one learning from what she does or doesn't do.

The Pluto/Chiron can be a real doozy in levels of sensitivity... Pluto demands change, and Chiron is the most sensitive spot in one's chart. This does have potential to be incredibly painful if the Pluto person doesn't fully allow autonomy to Chiron's own progress. If they try and force it, it's gonna hurt. I'm gonna guess this is a conjunction in Sagittarius? Which means that you probably need to be extra careful with wielding your beliefs over her or at her- Chiron is kind of like Lilith in that it's going to be very instinctual as well. And painful if not allowed to process in it's own way. Pluto will naturally want to force the change, and will sometimes do it inevitably, so Chiron will have to be pretty aware of what's happening too. This kind of aspect needs a lot of calm communication and RESPECT of boundaries. Especially in wild Sag energy (if that's where it is). At the very least, Sag energy does like to learn! But Chiron there is gonna need to do it in their own way, on their own time, at their own pace.

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This is getting really long, but I can't stop telling you I LOVED THE VIDEO, THANK YOU. I told my gf about it and she said it looked interesting for her but she thinks that sometimes people are not prepared to go into that process. That is a bit scary. We had a conversation about it, hm. She has told me before that is painful for her when people try to make her do things when she doesn't have control over those things, like her anxiety or the OCD. And I don't know if I should be stubborn about this issue, so I just talk to her really subtlely and slowly. She's also stubborn though lol

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Actually this last bit goes with what I said about Pluto/Chiron hahaha. I want to say, it doesn't have to be the end all of scary placements either. I had this exact conjunction with my Grandmother, she being Pluto and me being Chiron (in Cancer too, oof emotions). I adored her, and I was extremely aware of her intense amounts of power (specifically over me, but also in general). So maybe another thing to note is, the Chiron person will be highkey aware of the power of the Pluto person, which makes me think 'beware of power dynamics'. But also, you both are still in your 20s I think, so you've got plenty of time to learn about it. Lilith is great for instinctual path-following, as long as there is trust and respect and no one is pushing anyone faster than they are ready!