posted February 05, 2023 09:55 PM            

So I have been friends with this girl for about 5 years; I could say she is my best friend in Korea. We have a lot of problems though - there is a lot of triggering in our relationship. It is very unstable, a little co-dependent and the energy feels toxic at times. She is often jealous of me, and I often feel like she sucks the energy out of a room. There is just this underlying dark energy, and as I continue on my journey I really want to be more selective of who I keep around me. I am frustrated with this resentment, but I somehow cannot get rid of her.

I find out synastry rather dull - but intense with the Leo marses conjunct, then squared to Pluto. This aspect still frustrates me even though I have it with like everyone I am friends with, especially if they are born within my generation - and for some reason, I pull in a lot of Mars Leo people, honestly couldn't tell you why. Her Saturn in my 12th, I feel like that must be triggering some of my subconscious karmic wounding stuff?

I think the composite has a grand cross. With Jupiter/Pluto, The Sun, ASC, and, Mercury? Like that cannot be good, binding for sure - because it is very difficult for me/us to detach from this relationship. I feel like it is all in very tough houses too, it's probably very obvious, but perhaps there is like issues with health/relationships - perhaps family life? Her mom calls me her favorite daughter (I have past life stuff there); can someone help me to make heads/tales of why this relationship literally makes me mad?

My natal chart:

posted February 09, 2023 07:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Librapurr:
T-squares with Mars Pluto in all charts can be pretty aggressive, and there’re little nice aspects to make interaction more pleasant. Probably, because you both have heavily aspected personal planets you can tolerate it for that long. Grand cross what keeps you together most likely.

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posted February 11, 2023 06:22 PM            

Libra believes that it is nice, and the civilised thing to do, to see relationships through. They are committed through thick and thin. They are seen as "needy" sometimes, because of this. And it is needy, but, within the context that Libra just inherently sees the value of combining views and perspectives with another person (side note: which is if you think about it, more efficient).

Your Moon however, moving into Aries from soft, immersed and dependent Pisces, does mean that you are looking to grow to more self-sufficient, independent and self-serving stature. Some people see this as selfish. And it is, but within the context that Aries just inherently sees the value of forging forward, alone, so they can individuate and know themselves separately.

Double that, being conjunct Saturn in your chart. Which solidifies this tone of independence, and makes it less flexible to anything but independence.

These Moons of yours have different operational modes then, too: Aries will cut and run if they see no value, Libra will stick with it in principle. But, as with all opposites, there is a little bit of Libra in Aries and vice versa. Aries will understand, respect and admire, Libra's relationship focus, and vice versa.

That your Moons are sign-opposite then (Venus too), means that you compliment each other well, within the principles of oppositions (as mentioned above). You mirror each other, and you see yourself reflected in the other - a dynamic both Aries and Libra enjoy for different reasons. And, if you have not had that important mirroring in your developmental years (not many people have), this is a valuable mirroring that can heal, and a lovely friendship to have. Although of course, intense. And there are a lot of opposites in your synastry that create quite some intensity.

Also, her Moon is not well aspect in her natal, so, it's a bit lost and lonely.. But, it connects really well to your Jupiter, and emphasises this "need" for her to be connected to you. Especially because it's the Moon, and especially because it's Libra. Jupiter takes a lot of pride in being able to support someone, too. So, it's a mutual rapport.

But, funnily enough, your Jupiter, in return, is not so heavily aspected either in your own chart. So there is mutual appreciation and sympathy here, as to how, elements of your relationship are unique to your special bond, and how you each bring comfort and loyalty, like no other.

Now, again, it's not a one-way street this relationship: look at your Venus and how she is giving that not-very-well-aspected Venus support with her Saturn. That is a blessed aspect.

You are soulmates but, time, and other aspect challenges can bring things down in this world. Challenges wear friendships down, it's true.

These oppositions, and the connection with Moon and Jupiter (well known to be a special aspect), and in return, her Saturn with your Venus, are (some of) the locations that provide evidence as to how you love and appreciate each other.

Additionally and also very important, her Jupiter jumps on that wedge of yours: trine your own Moon/Saturn and opposite Sun (etc), does mean she lights up your world to some degree also. And, her Jupiter there pulls your own Jupiter into that dynamic - so it's integrated with the rest of the patterns in your chart, which is where most of your personality operates from. With her, you can "borrow" her Jupiter to coach and remind you how it feels to have it integrated in your own chart. As already pointed out - not only is in not as integrated, but it's not so heavily aspected either.

Another really important factor is, that same Jupiter of hers provides some support to your Saturn opposite Chiron. Hard Saturn being a strong theme in your own chart/psyche (see below), so it's a welcome balm to be able to lighten up about your own struggles. And may even be one of your sensitive spots that balances out hers as well - as in: you both have your vulnerabilities equally - one person is not stronger than the other and having the other lean more. There is mutual dependence here.

Unfortunately, though, as these aspects are supportive, but "soft", they are often not noticed in relationships until they are not there. Like the way a fish can only value water when it's gone.

Next thing I was going to say is: look at her challenged chart. Definitely something "toxic" there. But, hello, your Mars is equally heavily challenged. You're both struggling (with this Mars situation) - you have the same problem, nearly. And neither of you really have great tools within, as to know how to bring things to better form - in yourselves or in this relationship. This highlighting of that T-square of yours, via the conjunction of Mars will definitely make you feel "literally angry": there's nowhere for that energy to go so it's a frustrated Mars in the synastry. BUT, it's both of you.

You could appear as more skilled than she is, overall, as your chart is much more integrated and spread wider (greater density of aspects). But she, in contrast, has focus, where you will scatter your energy.

Regarding, just the Mars business in BOTH of your charts individually, for this is such an obvious focus: your individual Marses are intensely challenged, AND they overlap via the conjunction, to impact each other too. This being the case - you're chasing your tails on the same problems individually, and together. Lol.. Kind of cute

You do have some skills though, together. When you work together, you have access to the wisdom, tolerance and buoyance of Jupiter, and the support, commitment and structure of Saturn. These are great and complimentary tools that you have access to support each other and your friendship. You can find a soft landing place in each other. Saturn and Jupiter are sister planets, who - unlike the inner planets (eg: Mars and Venus) - are mature, are deep and rounded, and are capable of growing, and appreciating, as time goes by.

This same challenges that you BOTH have with the difficult Mars, again, brings (more) mirroring - and therefore intensity in energy, but also sympathy that you both struggle: you can relate to each other, and perhaps like no other. Potentially, no one will know you as well as she will. And, if you want friends for life, you should sort it out. If you can.

I dare say Saturn in your 12H is an issue..... as well as the other challenges you are aware of, and that others have brought to attention. You will likely feel under the microscope and judged with Saturn there. This is an issue, for sure, but, you are already dealing with that kind of critique with your own heavy Saturn (opposite Chiron) - so, yep, maybe she is triggering it.

She has similar challenges her side. She could have abandonment issues, and is likely worried you will leave her as the more skilled one, and she might be "jealous". Jealousy is only fear, and looking at her chart she has a lot to be fearful of. Maybe she recognises that you have the tools to move forward in life, and are, indeed moving forward (in your life, generally). She'd like to know if you're going to take her with you, share what you know and learn, or will you leave her behind.

Also, your Mars is in her 12H. Something SHE already has... so, perhaps is triggering hers too.. Worth noting again, is that, those Marses don't have any smooth supportive aspects (tools) to manage. My point is that, this very hard conjunct Mars you have together in her 12H is not easy to manage.

From search:

If there’s one thing you should know about Mars in 12th house synastry, it’s this; it’s serious, intense, and puts both parties in an extremely vulnerable position.

When fiery, straight-shooting Mars touches the elusive and uber secretive 12th house, all of their subconscious secrets, fantasies, dreams, visions, and even traumatic experiences are brought to life.

There’s huge potential for both unwavering support and complete manipulation in this dynamic. How it plays out fully depends on how extreme the energy of both the house and planet person is. That’s why I call it the placement of both soulmates and enemies – it can go in two completely opposite directions.

~ End of Paste ~

Additionally, not yet mentioned here but it's important: your Mars is also struggling under that inconjunction with Uranus. Because her Uranus is close by, like your Jupiter, this aspect drags her Uranus into the Mars dynamic. So, that's it's a pretty tricky situation for her, she not accustomed to the inconjunct and, for her, it's not unconscious like it is for you: she can see clearly (and maybe complains) of you erratic moods and temperament(?) - maybe you deny it saying "it's just me", wondering what she (or anyone) is talking about (it's ok because I have one too with Mars but not to Uranus).

Surprise, surprise, low and behold and here again: her Uranus is not all that integrated in her own chart. So, again.. we have over and over, these themes in your synastry where you're both providing piggy backs into each other's worlds, which, on one hand provide insight into someone else's world and how they manage life, it also gives escape from your own challenges, but it also drags you into another person's inner problems. But, this is ok. This is normal friendships! How lucky you are to have so much in common. How wise, tolerant, kind, patient, are you able to be to manage this and keep your friendship? It's def not easy though. The best of friends are those you look back over many decades. Just saying.

Your Mars is the ruler of you Moon that is jumping to break free of anything and everything. So your Mars is quite - even more - compulsive here, as the ruler of your Aries Moon. So, your cutting free and moving forward inclinations are heavily felt by her in her 12H. It could make her appear more clingy and insecure than she would normally be. She can, out of fear, try to, in turn, hold you back and hang on, with her Saturn in your 12H. Or, more accurately, you well feel it more as it's in your 12H.

To put it another way: her natural human fears impelling her to hang on and restrict within clear boundaries (Saturn), and your natural tendencies to more forward in life (Mars), are BOTH deeply felt by both of you, because of the 12H positions. Further, you intuit it easily and perceive it more keenly in each other, possibly even before the other person even knows it, or intends it themselves. So, you're not necessarily "doing it" to each other, just, the 12H senses that particular force in the natal chart of the other, quite vividly.

posted February 12, 2023 09:31 PM            

True about the Libra and Aries moon - I definitely feel the need to cut and run when things are toxic, not serving me, and, perhaps even when things are too complicated. I have had to talk myself down many times, assuring myself that all relationships have value and I may regret if I just cut and run, or push away valuable relationships.

Relationships all personal ones - are so difficult for me. It is my weak spot; I have experienced life very much by myself and not always by choice, as I have experienced death and loss from those who were close to me. With my friend, it seems like she has a very difficult or lonely chart looking at it even though she had a very stable upbringing.

Although, I would agree that we do have compassion or understanding towards each other's wounds - I have seen some of the things she experiences or has experienced and I am compassionate towards them. Vice Versa as well.

There are times when that digging nature comes out of us both - knowing each other so well - those very ugly or toxic energies come into play. For me - I try very hard not to dig back, or to dig at all. I do not want to be like that, and I also don't want to see myself as superior to her, but sometimes I am thinking this girl has so much work to do on herself, and all I do is work on myself. Clearly not enough judging that I am still thinking like that, or comparing.

When those triggering happen between us; I try to cut myself off energetically from her (even if I am around her), but it is like she has thrown me or we have thrown each other into our deepest psyches and it feels invasive; I am not sure who I am fighting off myself or her. It is just very difficult and it makes me feel ill.

I get tired of introversion seeming like a bad thing, as I am more introverted than her - I need a lot more time alone to recharge. Also yes, she can pick up on my moods or how shift my temperament can be, but to be honest those things come out more with her, or it is more magnified - with other people in my life either they know how to react to my mood changes, or I am just feeling less unstable.

posted February 12, 2023 11:28 PM            

Please don't think that I am trying to convince, either way. I am actually just highlighting the choices at hand, in a pretty neutral fashion. It is evident how difficult this situation is. Context is important, I don't have access to that - only you know.

The reason you won't have it with others is, as mentioned - likely - they will have other tools: more aspects from their own Marses, and so able to channel the energy somewhere. Or/and don't have the conjunction with you. Makes your situation with this girl extremely unique.

It's ok to babble, I do it all the time, lol. It's sometimes the only way unconscious thoughts can come to the surface

I believe that the only way to get the best of both worlds of this relationship, is to boundary it.

Sit, call/write a letter - talk about how stressful it is and what a pain in the a55 she is, lol - no just kidding. And also the value and how much you care, or value preserving for the future, and set a structured friendship in place.

Eg, we catch up once a month (or whatever XX time period), I only call you on you birthday (she's in Korea?).. We take up squash/chess/wrestling/boxing/XX hobby together, see a movie, or just have dinner.. meditate/yoga/swim/gambling - whatever - together. Something like this has a timeframe constraint, and boundaries on the interaction. It would benefit from constraints, I'd say. Something you can and will both benefit from and come away feeling like the interaction has served you both where you had fun, learned a new thing, developed your fitness, got some frustration out. Or just caught up with an old friend who has similar struggles and you exchanged notes on life.

The relationships needs a structured approach to direct it into something that is supportive, and will serve you both.

I have no idea if you are able to discuss between both of you (didn't look at your Mercuries or anything). I don't know her level of maturity, education, commitment, or astrology knowledge for that matter - if you could take that angle. And I don't know your history together, either.

Again, I am not trying to advise you either way, or you, in particular. It's within the realm of astrology relationships to explore methods to manage relationships that have difficult synastry and dynamics. So, I am merely laying options and methods on the table that are relevant generally.

posted February 13, 2023 08:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by sassaqua:
Heya - this:
"I am not sure who I am fighting off myself or her." - this looks about accurate to me. It's very intertwined.

Please don't think that I am trying to convince, either way. I am actually just highlighting the choices at hand, in a pretty neutral fashion. It is evident how difficult this situation is. Context is important, I don't have access to that - only you know.

The reason you won't have it with others is, as mentioned - likely - they will have other tools: more aspects from their own Marses, and so able to channel the energy somewhere. Or/and don't have the conjunction with you. Makes your situation with this girl extremely unique.

It's ok to babble, I do it all the time, lol. It's sometimes the only way unconscious thoughts can come to the surface

I believe that the only way to get the best of both worlds of this relationship, is to boundary it.

Sit, call/write a letter - talk about how stressful it is and what a pain in the a55 she is, lol - no just kidding. And also the value and how much you care, or value preserving for the future, and set a structured friendship in place.

Eg, we catch up once a month (or whatever XX time period), I only call you on you birthday (she's in Korea?).. We take up squash/chess/wrestling/boxing/XX hobby together, see a movie, or just have dinner.. meditate/yoga/swim/gambling - whatever - together. Something like this has a timeframe constraint, and boundaries on the interaction. It would benefit from constraints, I'd say. Something you can and will both benefit from and come away feeling like the interaction has served you both where you had fun, learned a new thing, developed your fitness, got some frustration out. Or just caught up with an old friend who has similar struggles and you exchanged notes on life.

The relationships needs a structured approach to direct it into something that is supportive, and will serve you both.

I have no idea if you are able to discuss between both of you (didn't look at your Mercuries or anything). I don't know her level of maturity, education, commitment, or astrology knowledge for that matter - if you could take that angle. And I don't know your history together, either.

Again, I am not trying to advise you either way, or you, in particular. It's within the realm of astrology relationships to explore methods to manage relationships that have difficult synastry and dynamics. So, I am merely laying options and methods on the table that are relevant generally.

It's so interesting isn't it?

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Well to give some context, we are both English teachers in Korea. We lived in the same apartment building, so we sort of got stuck with each other because covid began, and there are not many ex-pats in our town. Obviously, as time went by our friendship has grown, honestly, it is still as triggering as it was in the beginning but less frequent I would say.

posted February 14, 2023 06:43 AM            

what I MEANT to say, was that: this relationship will respond well to boundaries. Because of the Saturn stuff.

posted February 15, 2023 08:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by sassaqua:
I went to bed thinking -

what I MEANT to say, was that: this relationship will respond well to boundaries. Because of the Saturn stuff.

So funny what we imagine, lol. I though you were in Africa. I imagined hot and dry, even rural landscape. Maybe doing some kind of healing retreat.

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posted February 15, 2023 10:32 AM            

There's not much that Sass didn't touch on, really. I think she has a good grasp on the interactions. I am looking at her chart and seeing her Mars under attack- Jupiter, Pluto and Mercury in the 4th? I feel like she had a hard upbringing. Not much trust, maybe a lot of scrutiny, control, and perhaps religious restriction? She's been fighting this influence, whatever it is since birth. With her Mars in 12th, I am left thinking she can't quite find her way out of this mess. Like she wants to break free from this control and upbringing, but she is not quite able. And then here you come, and you amp up her innate frustration. Your Mars on hers gives her strength, but if she can't see her way out, it adds to the frustration.

She may in turn then react to this by emulating the same behaviors she was raised with- confrontation, control, suspicion, frustration. Moon (hers) in semi-square to this mess isn't helping. She feels the need to mediate, pacify, keep the peace, but it's self sacrifice. Who wins if she keeps the peace? Certainly not her.

Your Moon on the other hand gets to march forward solidly and independently. You serve you, she serves everyone else. More frustration. She isn't capable of seeing it's all within her, it has nothing to do with you. She hasn't realized she can change her own perspective. She just feels and sees you, and she reacts instead of responds. That Chiron in the 1st amplifies this- she struggles to identify herself separate from others. Saturn in her 7th and on her DSC brings her these opportunities to gain wisdom, but she's still too young to get there just yet. She's not through her cycles of learning hard lessons through others.

This same Saturn sits right on your ASC- she both loves you and can't stand some of the things you do. She may have a tendency to correct you, show you where you're wrong... but it may surface a little more passively since it's in Pisces. Or passive aggressively. Add to this it squares your Sun. In the beginning she probably appreciated all these differences, but over time she wants to herd and correct.

Your Mercury to her Moon is a salve, because you connect and she can feel heard. And inadvertently her mess of planets (Jupiter Pluto Mercury) trine your Moon and give you strength. Which likely frustrates her even more.

What she doesn't realize is that you may be in her life to show her how to individuate, how to just be you, do your own thing and let go of the need to mediate for others at your own expense.

I agree with Sass, this relationship needs boundaries. It may not occur to you because you are just going to do your own thing anyway, but I do think some definition would help.

posted March 02, 2023 02:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by StoneMoon:
Sorry it has taken me a while to get in the right headspace... and I am still not sure I am there but I want to try for you!

There's not much that Sass didn't touch on, really. I think she has a good grasp on the interactions. I am looking at her chart and seeing her Mars under attack- Jupiter, Pluto and Mercury in the 4th? I feel like she had a hard upbringing. Not much trust, maybe a lot of scrutiny, control, and perhaps religious restriction? She's been fighting this influence, whatever it is since birth. With her Mars in 12th, I am left thinking she can't quite find her way out of this mess. Like she wants to break free from this control and upbringing, but she is not quite able. And then here you come, and you amp up her innate frustration. Your Mars on hers gives her strength, but if she can't see her way out, it adds to the frustration.

She may in turn then react to this by emulating the same behaviors she was raised with- confrontation, control, suspicion, frustration. Moon (hers) in semi-square to this mess isn't helping. She feels the need to mediate, pacify, keep the peace, but it's self sacrifice. Who wins if she keeps the peace? Certainly not her.

Your Moon on the other hand gets to march forward solidly and independently. You serve you, she serves everyone else. More frustration. She isn't capable of seeing it's all within her, it has nothing to do with you. She hasn't realized she can change her own perspective. She just feels and sees you, and she reacts instead of responds. That Chiron in the 1st amplifies this- she struggles to identify herself separate from others. Saturn in her 7th and on her DSC brings her these opportunities to gain wisdom, but she's still too young to get there just yet. She's not through her cycles of learning hard lessons through others.

This same Saturn sits right on your ASC- she both loves you and can't stand some of the things you do. She may have a tendency to correct you, show you where you're wrong... but it may surface a little more passively since it's in Pisces. Or passive aggressively. Add to this it squares your Sun. In the beginning she probably appreciated all these differences, but over time she wants to herd and correct.

Your Mercury to her Moon is a salve, because you connect and she can feel heard. And inadvertently her mess of planets (Jupiter Pluto Mercury) trine your Moon and give you strength. Which likely frustrates her even more.

What she doesn't realize is that you may be in her life to show her how to individuate, how to just be you, do your own thing and let go of the need to mediate for others at your own expense.

I agree with Sass, this relationship needs boundaries. It may not occur to you because you are just going to do your own thing anyway, but I do think some definition would help.

You are in many ways reflections of each other, and both of you can grow. Suns opposite, Venus opposite, Moons opposites... you have a unique opportunity to see life from the other perspective. It would take maturity and a step back I would think to see this and try to ascertain the lessons life is offering you here. And that comes with time... a la Saturn.

---

Hi Stonemoon! I am so sorry about my late response, I forgot about this thread.

I appreciate your interpretation - I would agree with her home life being tough, her mother is difficult and my friend has always had self-body/image issues which her mother (and father) have only made worse. There is a deep-seated insecurity, that looks to gain validation from others (which we all do to a certain extent, but for some odd reason her desperation for others to see her drives me insane - definitely something I need to look at myself about there).

Totally accurate about breaking out of religious control from her parents, she pushes back on the entire ideology of religion now because of that. There are certain ideologies now that she fights and resents. We had a conversation about "God" - and I was asking her about her beliefs and she's very much like "God doesn't exist" but she believes in hell; so then I am like oh okay, so you don't believe we live in a friendly universe and shes like she does. She just hasn't found that internal sense of connection to a higher power, it is still all these ideologies and things she pushes back on because of her parents.

God, I didn't want this post to be me berating her or anything - there is definitely a mirror reflection here. She wants all the attention, and when I am around her I kind of go into my shell more - not feeling like I can be seen too. It angers me.

Also, I did notice how both you and Sass have said that "I do my own thing" which is true to an extent, but I do worry about her opinion or her reactions often (perhaps Saturn?) - so I need to put a lot of space between us so I feel okay to be myself, and do my own thing without feeling worried.

posted March 02, 2023 06:32 AM            

Sorry, I don't have time to write much more. So that's no help.

posted March 02, 2023 07:39 AM            

And it's much easier to stand on the outside and see things from aerial view (me, Sass, others...) than it is to be deep in the relationship (you). But isn't that the point? you are supposed to learn and grow from this, so you are being put in it and to some extent being bound to it.

Here's my take on the composite:

MErcury is the chart ruler, and look how so much of the chart points back to Mercury and communication.

Gemini Asc. Mercury is at the bottom of the chart, in the 4th, in Virgo... another Mercurial sign! It sits directly opposite Sun and Saturn, so to me communication is already a bit quiet and reserved due to the 4th house/bottom of the chart presence, but now self expression of the relationship can't seem to be full and free. I would associate this with a lot of stop/start, push/pull, hesitation and frustration. The energy of the relationship can't flow.

It's all square Jupiter, so this adds to the frustration. Here is the philosophical/religious belief differences you experience. That's on the DSC, so it is what brings you together and what you experience through others and situations... to me this is the growth that is coming for both of you individually, though you may experience it together and as a result of your friendship.

Pluto (6th) square Mars (3rd) is adding tension, and eventually could lead to manipulation, insecurity, jealousy, control... Mars in the 3rd wants to pursue that expression (Mercury/Gemini ruled house), but Pluto isn't forthcoming and blocks it. It's a square, so it's one or the other, there is no flow of energy.

You do have Moon trine Mercury and Venus trine Jupiter, so in my eyes this is the balm that helps your relationship continue. Without these good feelings from time to time there would be too much heaviness, restriction, and friction that the friendship wouldn't hold. This is my opinion anyway.

I think there is just enough lightness, good feeling, to keep it going long enough for you two to learn and grow.

That Sun/Saturn mp trines your NN in Scorpio (6th), so again this is a learning relationship that should encourage you both to grow and learn wisdom, discipline, and the individual lessons you both need on your own. I actually see a lot of philosophical opportunity for you both- with those themes? Gemini, wanting to learn and experience, Sag on DSC, with Jupiter right there? Sun Saturn in Pisces and Pisces MC, then NN in Scorpio... all of these signs to me represent thought, beliefs, philosophies.... all deep thinking and feeling natures. It's like balancing the light and the dark, and deciding where you stand in your life perspective.

posted March 04, 2023 11:38 PM            

Even with the conjunction, one person has it in their 6th house of the physical body, and the other has it near their own Ascendant (ie the most slumbering to rising self, very honest and not always consciously aware expression- the real humany self!).

posted March 05, 2023 01:46 AM            

can you please elaborate your thoughts here, if it is possible for you to do so.

I understand the first bit - hard to manage if not Martian.

"Even with the conjunction, one person has it in their 6th house of the physical body, and the other has it near their own Ascendant (ie the most slumbering to rising self, very honest and not always consciously aware expression- the real humany self!)."

"slumbering to rising self" "the real humany self!"

??