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Author Topic:   The Evidence For Physical Immortality
Randall
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posted August 14, 2010 05:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am occasionally e-mailed about immortality of the physical body, and many of the queries mirror one another, so I thought I would address some of the main points on a string.

One thing I hear a lot is if immortality is true, why did Linda die? Well, Linda was a vessel for many Truths. She took ancient knowledge and explained it in such a way that the Average Joe and Jane could understand--making secret wisdom accessible to everyone. Linda did not create the idea of physical immortality; like much of what she conveyed to us, she merely relayed existing information, albeit in a way that only she could, being the brilliant writer she was. Linda had a very rough life. She was heartbroken. She was tired. Anyone who has ever read Gooberz understands.

I'm often told that every creature dies, so there is no proof whatsoever of immortality in the flesh. WRONG! There are several species that evolved to have no death genes, including a number of marine species and a certain species of seagull (only one particular species of seagull has no death genes). These creatures never age and only die through accidents and predators. Conversely, humans DO have death genes. Researchers have named them M1 and M2 genes. These genes can be manipulated in a lab and stopped--even reversed. So, what does science prove? 1. There are several immortal species. 2. The human death gene can be turned off. None of this even addresses human will and consciousness in the role of agelessness.

Skeptics who e-mail me almost always believe in spiritual immortality (of the Soul). They speak of there being no evidence of physical immortality. They also talk of everything having to die. Well, according to what I posted in my last paragraph, they couldn't be more wrong. There's actually zero scientific evidence for life after death. So, according to their logic, they shouldn't believe in immortality of the Soul, since there is no absolutely no evidence beyond their individual faith; whereas, there is a bulk of growing evidence for physical immortality.

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"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

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katatonic
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posted August 15, 2010 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
it is also quite possible that linda faked her death or transmigrated into another body, two things she talked about the avatars doing many times. but she did have a hard life, in common with a lot of aries(es?) and therein is the chief reason people go on dying...they get to a certain point and can't see any other way out. i have an elderly friend at this doorway right now. she WANTS to die, rather than continue in a fairly healthy body whose mind has betrayed her. she was diagnosed (lazily, we think) as in dementia, though she shows all the signs of having had a stroke - something that can be reversed with therapy IF the right help is available. i'm once more thoroughly unimpressed with the miracle of american medicine.

but i think a great MANY people have experienced evidence of soul-life after death. their loved ones have visited them (not in the flesh) after death. or they have heard stories. i have yet to meet anyone who has actually run into a flesh-and-blood "deceased" person. i myself had a visit from a dead dog when i was a child. this convinced me! but i knew even at 10 yrs old that trying to convince others would be a waste of time or worse...

it's a hard hurdle to jump.

have you read any of peter mt shasta's books, randall? he tells of his immortal friends and the adventures he has had with/because of them. interesting chap.

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SunChild
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posted August 16, 2010 06:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randall

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Nephthys
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posted August 16, 2010 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nephthys     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What are the species? I want to look them up.

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Randall
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posted August 16, 2010 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Check out Ageless Body, Timeless Mind by Deepak Chopra.

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"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

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katatonic
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posted August 16, 2010 10:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
great book with or without species!

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Randall
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posted August 17, 2010 11:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He lists several species in the book. I can't remember them, and I gave my copy away long ago. The seagull thing was on a news show (I think Dateline). They have tagged a group of them to study their agelessness, and they return each year. It has been going on for decades. According to the scientists, the seagulls somehow evolved to NOT have death genes. Most of the creatures on earth have evolved TO have death genes, because evolution works best through death of one generation and adaptation over time. Man now controls his environment, so any further evolution is unlikely.

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"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

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Nephthys
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posted August 17, 2010 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nephthys     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Man now controls his environment, so any further evolution is unlikely
No offense Randall, but I totally disagree with this. Evolution is a continuous process. Even if you don't believe it.

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Nephthys
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posted August 17, 2010 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nephthys     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just searched Google, as well as Google Scholar:

seagulls with no death genes
immortal seagulls
seagulls and death genes
seagulls that don't die

And I couldn't find anything at all about it.

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Randall
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posted August 17, 2010 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Try searching adding "Dateline story on" to it. I haven't tried that, but it will probably work. No offense taken! Wouldn't you agree that adaptation is the root of evolution? Adaptation takes place all the time on the planet. But genetic mutations leading to a brand new species as it relates to humans is difficult to fathom. Wouldn't you agree that the thing that makes a species distinct is that it can only procreate within its own? If so, are you saying that a species will evolve from our current one and that the two of us won't be able to procreate? Or that all of humanity will evolve simultaneously?

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"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

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Randall
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posted August 17, 2010 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't find the seagull story on-line either. But it was such an awesome story. I know it has to be somewhere on-line. Maybe it was 60 Minutes? Or 20/20? Nephthys, I know you have a lot of education in biology, so maybe you can explain evolution to us a bit. My understanding is that it's basically random genetic mutations that are passed on to the next generation that have survival value. Is that correct?

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"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

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katatonic
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posted August 17, 2010 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i think we are again LOSING control of our environment...if we ever had it in the first place. in fact our very tampering with nature in the attempt to control the environment will FORCE new evolution on us. if only due to the effects of GMO food, which no one knows what it will do to us or other species in the long term...and the whole climate issue, whether we actually are causing it or not, is likely to force adaptation which leads to evolution. every day scads of stories of how the environment is NOT being controlled come out on the news. ref. the chile earthquakes, iceland volcano and pakistani floods to name a few...

one evolutionary step we might take is to realize that working WITH nature is more likely to succeed than to FLAUNT nature or think we are in control there! another would be to realize that when we instigate supposed improvements (again say GMOs) the outcome is not predictable unless they are studied a VERY long time...

have you read bruce lipton randall? he talks about how we can affect genetic changes by our behaviour and especially our nurturing of children...now this is an attempt to control nature as well, but based on decades of study already done...and very interesting in light of the "death gene" question too!

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Nephthys
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posted August 17, 2010 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nephthys     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randall,

YES! Mutations are the engine of evolution. I would LOVE to discuss this very much but I am at work in the middle of a huge project and leaving soon so I won't be back until tomorrow. Just wanted to check in here quickly.

One of my upper division courses was Evolution. I loved it and feel that every person in the world should take this class.

We had a few lectures on the definition of a species and even 1 lab session on it........

There is a lot of debate in the scientific world about the definition of a "Species" (whether they can breed together or not, etc.) This was a huge topic we discussed.

Anyhow I would love to discuss this furthur, if I forget to come back here please remind me and you can also e-mail me too.

Thanks, N.

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katatonic
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posted August 17, 2010 07:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
bucky fuller had a different take on evolution. rather than random mutations making certain functions possible and thereby being reinforced, he suggested that in attempting to enjoy/carry out those functions, species developed new attributes which made them better and better at doing so. which still allows for survival of the fittest, since those who best performed projected their genes onto the next generation, etc...(see his "Critical Path", the last of his books which takes in a lot of his former work AND history from prehistory to 1980)

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SunChild
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posted August 18, 2010 03:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just received this today from Peter Ragnar:

quote:
"Science cannot find any reason for aging and death to occur. As an example, Ricklefs and Finch in their book, Aging: A Natural History state, 'Next to the miracle of life itself, aging and death are perhaps the greatest mysteries.' In the book How and Why We Age, the famous Dr. Leonard Hayflick adds, "It is not obvious why aging and death should occur...we know of no good reason why aging should happen.' Nobel Prize winner Dr. Alexis Carrel states, 'The cell is immortal. It is merely the fluid in which it floats that degenerates...and so far as we now know, the pulsation of life may go on forever.' Dr. George W. Crile, in reference to Dr. Carrel, says, "There is no natural death. All deaths from so-called natural causes are merely the end point of progressive acid saturation.'"

Unfortunately, Dr. Carrel wasn't alive when Dr. Michael West's book The Immortal Cell: One Scientist's Quest to Solve the Mystery of Human Aging hit the bookstores.

"It certainly appears that the issues are far more complicated than these simple assertions indicate."

Dr. Carrel would be happy to know that he was correct in asserting that the cell was immortal. They just happen to be stem cells in their juvenile state before they differentiate into any of the other cells that construct our physical bodies. Of course, once they assume identity, it appears as if an aging clock in the cell's nucleus begins ticking. It's what Dr. Leonard Hayflick discovered about human fibroblasts (cells that become connective tissue) in a tissue culture; they wouldn't divide more than 50 times on average.

"In order to survive, our cells must keep making copies of themselves and get rid of the cellular garbage they create."

Unlike Hayflick's discovery in human cells, the earth is well populated with immortal single-celled animals that can keep the copies of their genetic codes intact and proliferate forever. These "immortal germ line" cells may soon disclose their secrets to scientists, as may the immortal cancer cells of Henrietta Lack (known as "HeLa cells") which formed the basis of cancer research.

"Remember, it is in the nucleus that our genetic code is hidden."

This is where a major amount of research is being focused. The number of cell doublings is determined by what happens within the cell's nucleus. As cells reach the "Hayflick limit," the connective tissue cells produce the yellowish pigment or age spots that you see on the skin of old people - ugly splotches of discoloration, signposts of aging. Yet consider this scientific observation: cancer cells don't age.

"Why? Because they have the ability to maintain the integrity of the chromosomes."

Chromosomes are a threadlike DNA structure that contains and preserves the genes of the organism. Let me introduce you to telomeres. Telomeres are what you find at the ends of the chromosomes. You can think of telomeres as the plastic end caps of a shoelace. If the ends become frayed, the lace becomes difficult to insert through the eyelet and is generally discarded. When this happens to the end of the chromosome, the end section or telomere gets cut off, shortening the chromosome. Every time our cells divide, the telomeres shorten, damaging the cell and leaving cellular debris, thus leaving an acidic environment that requires the antioxidant cleanup crew.

"Telomeres are constructed of a sequence of nucleic acids."

Nucleic acids are what make DNA and RNA. How can we prevent the destruction of such an invaluable cell component? Science has discovered an enzyme presently found only in "germ-line cells" and cancer cells which allows for their repair and protection indefinitely. Thus, telomerase is an "immortalizer." However, this isn't good with a cancer cell, which defies the "Hayflick limit" of 50 cell doublings. However, scientists speculate that the enzyme telomerase, by its ability to preserve the cells' integrity, can make even the body's differentiated cells immortal. It's a matter of discovering how to turn it on in healthy cells and turn it off in a cancer cell.

To Be Continued...


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Randall
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posted August 18, 2010 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your input, katatonic. Nephthys, take your time. Post your thoughts here for everyone to learn. SunChild, that's some amazing info!

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"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

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SunChild
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posted August 19, 2010 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Part 2...

quote:

If there is, as scientists believe, a cellular clock that controls the lifespan of dividing cells, and the enzyme telomerase turns the clock off, then we're many steps closer to biological immortality. Scientists are working on synthesizing and isolating enzymes. You're probably wondering, "Why can't we get these enzymes from raw plant matter and fresh, organic juices?"


"As much as I thrill to the taste of raw foods (especially fresh out of my organic garden), one must understand exactly what an enzyme is."

Enzymes are non-living complex protein molecules. These molecules are constructed from the RNA's matrix, which is copied from the DNA. The structure contains specific metallic ions, such as zinc, manganese, selenium, etc. If anything is out of sync, the result is mis-synthesized enzymes. This results in hormonal imbalances. There are 3,870 different enzymes that are continually being produced and destroyed by our bodies. This means that an appropriate pH balance much exist for different enzymes to work. Remember, enzymes are catalysts: their presence allows for a chemical reaction to take place, while they themselves impart nothing. Enzymes create environment.
"Plant enzymes are mineral ions converted from the soil for the plant's benefit."

For a plant to be healthy, certain minerals must exist in the soil for plant enzymes to assist in the plant's health. When we eat the plant, the moment the chewed matter is acted upon by the digestive juices, the plant enzymes are destroyed. Heat and heavy metals also destroy enzymes. It is the human body's job to produce enzymes from cells to provide the life-giving functions we require.

"Keep in mind that enzymes do not appear in the final product of the chemical reaction they create."

3,870 various kinds of enzymes must be created by the body, just like a plant must create its enzymes in order to grow. As an example, the pancreas creates an enzyme, trypsin, to break down protein. Fats require pancreatic steapsin. For you and I to break down carbohydrates, the intestines must release sucrose, lactase, and maltase. Additionally, an amylase found in our saliva called ptyalin is what converts starch into sugar.

"Your body must create these enzymes."

However, ptyalin, as an example, is destroyed or inactivated by gastric juice, and pepsin, an enzyme found in the gastric juice, is destroyed if there isn't a proper amount of hydrochloric acid. When overabundant, hydrochloric acid can burn a hole in the esophagus. Plant enzymes never survive this acid bath. I used to recommend soaking seeds and nuts to release their anti-enzyme inhibitors (which nature releases when the spring rains come) because I didn't want to inhibit the plant enzymes' work in my body. From scientific evidence, I was nuts!

"Enzymes are non-living chemical/mineral ions that allow for an "effect" as a catalyst - that's it."

While enzymes are of protein composition, there is also a non-protein part called the prosthetic group of the enzyme molecule, which can detach from the rest of the molecule to create a "co-enzyme." These are inorganic mineral ions that construct and allow vitamins to function.

"Vitamins are non-living chemicals as well."

With all this said, how can we assist the body to produce enzymes - especially the immortalizing ones that we can govern for biological immortality? These are questions that the Pro-Youthing System is seriously looking at.


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Randall
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posted August 19, 2010 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting. I look at it similar to putting a key in the ignition of a car; we don't need to know how it works in order to make the car crank with the key. I believe that when we Ordain our birthright to immortality, the process takes over, and the divine intelligence of the body will produce the exact enzymes and whatever else is needed, including shutting off the M1 and M2 genes.

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"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

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Randall
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posted December 01, 2010 11:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*bump*

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"The earth is not given to us by our mothers and our fathers, it is borrowed from our children."

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Randall
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posted January 15, 2011 08:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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"Cooking is like love. It should be entered into with abandon or not at all." Harriet Van Horne

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Randall
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posted July 17, 2011 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." Aristotle

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Randall
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posted August 08, 2011 11:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Worthy of a bump for the SC info.

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"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." Aristotle

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wavelink
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posted August 21, 2011 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wavelink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
worthy it is

Was wondering why I like this forum so much..


Here is natal chart for a guy that didn't die at all:

Name:
Ramalinga Swamigal

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Publicly achieved physical immortality in 19 century gradually transforming his physical body to golden immortal one (and they say 8th house was a bad place, meh);
Then two more transformations followed by disappearance very similar to the ascension of Jesus.


During his life often made miracles, healed sick ppl., giving enchanting speeches about love&God.

Openly inviting everyone to follow him n share the thrilling life of an immortal, eternal youth and beauty

But obviously ppl. thought it was too good to be true and didn't believe him.
Like somehow he was better that the rest.

After seeing that others didn't follow him & made him an icon for worship just gave a final speech & disappeared for mortal sight.

Lots of info about him in the tubes.

~Funny in this very moment Venus (love N immortality) is exactly over Regulus n my name asteroid.

Swear I didn't do it on purpose

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wavelink
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posted August 21, 2011 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wavelink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pff,
was distracted and put it up sidereal.


Just use the same anon account and convert it to tropical if u wish.


~*

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Randall
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posted August 22, 2011 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting.

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"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." Aristotle

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