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Author Topic:   Truth is not conviction
dafremen
unregistered
posted April 06, 2004 01:35 PM           Edit/Delete Message
"This small window in which you've chosen to frame your beliefs."

The words play over and over in my head. A friend was attempting to convince me of the correctness of his perception, of the rightness and objectivity of his way of thinking.

It's this need to convince, this conviction presenting itself as reason which causes me to pass on without stopping. So sure is he of what cannot be, that he has inadvertently become tangled in the snare of what he believes MUST be. If I do not stop to weigh his words, I'm at least given cause to pause. I pause not to consider the validity of his point of view, for that I have already done. What would move has come with me, what wouldn't has been left behind. No, I pause to ponder my own perspective, to know the nature of my own conviction (or lack thereof.)

What DO I believe? Anything at all?
What DO I know? Anything that's true?

What appears to some as belief, is but the current passing through of passing currents. It is where this thing called "I" has come to be at the moment, nothing more. There is no point around which belief can center itself, for in me, such a thing is hardly allowed to be. There is only this: What I seem to understand now.

What past is there? Bring it to me and surely you must be God Himself.
What future is there? Show it to me and truly you will be called Lord. Thus the state of what I "believes" is present now and only now.

What DOES "I" believe?
At first it seems that the answer must be "Nothing at all."

What belief there is in me is like wind, ethereal and inconstant. There seems no form to it. Yet even the wind is either pulled from before, or pushed from behind.

What is it that I am drawn to? The only answer that comes to me is: Truth.
"How is it", some will no doubt ask, "that you can know what is true?" My response would be that if you must ask the question, you have either never seen truth, or did not recognize it when it presented itself to you.

What then is Truth?

It is that ONE sliver of actual knowledge which pushes me constantly forward:

There is ONLY God.

Someday, perhaps I will believe that fact as I know it. Until then, belief remains but the wind upon which my words, thoughts and deeds will continue to be blown.

daf

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quiksilver
Knowflake

Posts: 568
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001

posted April 07, 2004 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for quiksilver     Edit/Delete Message
Yes, but what is God? What people refer to as "God" probably takes many forms. So when you say, "There is ONLY God", how are you defining the "only"? Also, you said "What would move has come with me, what wouldn't has been left behind". What do you mean by this? After reading your post, it seems to me that you are conveying that truth is knowledge. Or are you more specifcally stating that truth is one piece of knowledge, namely that there is only God? Not that I am an atheist, but how would you tackle this argument if you were addressing an atheist? Would you simply inform him or her that he/she is wrong? But what would you use as supporting evidence? I am just curious to hear your answer, as you present yourself quite eloquently. Maybe my questions are pointless, as you complete your post with the affirmation that you may someday know as you believe. So maybe it is unfair of me to press you but nevertheless, I am interested to hear more of what you have to say.....

quik

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dafremen
unregistered
posted April 08, 2004 12:59 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Your questions are fair, although perhaps more than I'm equipped to address. Let me take a crack at it. (Some would say I've been smoking crack...but the state of my sanity is another discussion altogether.)

If you were an atheist and you were to ask me, "what is God" after I had stated that "There is only God", then my answer should be self-evident.

It could pose itself as a question:
What isn't God?

It could attempt to pretend that it is an answer:
God is Everything.

Or even:
Everything is God.

Understand that there is a reality which is so mind boggling that it has boggled my mind. It is the knowledge which I, and most of us simply cannot believe: There is no us, I, me, you, we; there is only God.

Imagine that my finger had come to be sentient. Imagine that its self-awareness had obliterated its direct knowledge of its connection to me. Imagine that it was incapable of sensing me directly through its normal senses.

How would you explain to that finger that it was, in fact, not but part of a greater whole? That it was not an individual entity, but a finger?

Furthermore, how do you think it would react if, for a fleeting moment, it were able to GLIMPSE this truth? Do you think its self-awareness would willingly march off into oblivion...embracing its non-existence?

I know that it wouldn't. It would refuse to believe what it knew..that it does not exist as an individual entity. It would go back into its old, comfortable mode of thinking about itself as separate. It would RUN like hell, fighting tooth-and-nail for self-preservation.

Understand, that the minute I believe, truly believe, what I know..."I" ceases to exist.

Yes, it's a paradox. Yes it's practically unfathomable. Yes it could drive a person quite literally insane. My ego is in denial at this point and is clinging to its old comfortable modes of thinking. But it's even more sinister than that.

See, my mind KNOWS how the spirit came to be in control (the event which brought about the 6 hour glimpse into the reality of our existence.)

It knows what it is that it must do to relinquish control to the spirit and regain that bliss. (And it is the MOST blissful, wonderful experience you could ever feel. Better than any physical sensation that you have ever felt...guaranteeed. It is, quite literally, heaven.) But see, the mind doesn't want to relinquish control anymore. It only allowed it the first time, because it had NO idea what it would find on the other side. (Yes, bliss, but also its own eradication.)

So now, it is trying to bury the spirit. It lies, steals, eats like there was no tomorrow. It indulges its impulses and feeds the dragon within. I am quite literally consuming myself spiritually. I am becoming more and more like that material from which this mind and body sprang.

Sometimes I find myself doing these things, with a smile on my face, and tears begin running down my cheeks. The spirit screams inside and its sadness manifests itself on the outside in the form of tears.

How can I demonstrate this knowledge? I cannot. You can only prove or disprove it to yourself. There is no magical formula outside of spiritual endeavor that will bring you to know reality. You must make one leap of faith: that it COULD be true. You must believe that meditation and reflection upon God MIGHT bring you to know something that you could not know otherwise.

You are not asked to draw your conclusions, only to begin your investigation, truly begin it, by taking up practices which are conducive to spiritual understanding. (Exercise, meditation, vegetarianism, suppression of ego, truthfulness, embracing brotherly love and unity.)

If nothing happens, well then, by all means, feel free to condemn spirituality and God as a load of malarky. Still, there is only one sure way to know, and that is to try.

As for "belief" which moves and that which doesn't:

Belief which moves does not rely on the context of the beliefs that surround it in order to stand. It stands alone. An example might be this: I believe that something shouldn't be considered false without evidence that it is false.

An example of a fixed belief, or one which relies upon surrounding beliefs might be this: I cannot believe in a God of whom there is no evidence.

This belief relies upon the belief that all evidence has been gathered. This is, of course a false assumption. It's not that the first belief is not correct. Perhaps there IS no evidence of the existence of God. Yet, to believe that at this point is dependent entirely upon another belief.

Understand that because the former becomes a belief due to its basis upon the latter, it cannot exist apart from the beliefs which support it. It is fixed and tends to fix our perspective in one place.

Those beliefs which stand alone are useful and generally hold true under the light of scrutiny. They move with history and with our understanding. As our experiences change our perspective, these beliefs move with that perspective, and are quite often bolstered.

Sometimes we hold beliefs which appear to stand alone, yet upon finding them patently false, we learn that there WAS a dependence upon supporting beliefs that remained hidden to us until experience revealed them.

I enjoyed your questions very much although, again, I'm not sure that I was capable of answering them to your satisfaction, or even correctly for that matter.

Love,

daf

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quiksilver
Knowflake

Posts: 568
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001

posted April 08, 2004 09:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for quiksilver     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Daf,
Thank you for the depth and thoughtfulness of your response. Although (and not to be cheeky), in a way it could very well be argued that it is in fact OUR response. I use the word "our", because if we are all one, then no ONE person can really take ownership of anything, right? And that includes a personal response. But now that I think of it -- most people would not "buy" this way of thinking. Most people would argue that their thoughts are their own. One would be hard pressed to convince that the opposite is true. For example, if I do not support a particular war - or indeed, any war, and my peer on the other hand, completely supports it, then who is thinking what in this case? What I mean is, if I am not myself, but part of a whole, and another part of the whole (in the form of a person)is at odds with me, then what is truth? One would assume that a whole entity would come to ONE conclusion (in this case, a conclusion pertaining to the "rightness" or "wrongness" of war). But if the whole is at odds amongst itself, then how is truth ever attained? Unless truth is not just ONE conclusion. But how can this be? I, as part of this assumed whole, hear much talk about the searching out of one's "individual" truth. On this site itself, we read about "respecting one another's opinion", as though we are all in fact separate entities. So it seems to me that (and believe me, I am not referring to you when I say this) that many people who claim to believe in the "oneness" of the Universe are in fact only paying lip-service to this much celebrated concept. There is no "I" in team. There is no "I" in the world if what you (and many others) are saying is true. I am interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Regarding another event you alluded to: the "6 hour glimpse". Please elaborate. It sounds as though there is more to that story but I suppose you held back in the last post, given that this is a whole other topic altogther and I imagine you could go on at great length. It may appear that I am prying but really I am just thirsting for knowledge, whatever I think that is. (Again a topic for another post).

When you spoke about smiling all the while crying, knowing that you are in a sense betraying what you believe in for the sake of carrying on with practical, "safe" life, I can relate to you. Lately, it seems that every action I take is subject to immense scrutiny. When I find myself lacking ("lacking" being defined as my spiritual self taking a backseat to material concerns), it seems that the only real solution is to "give it all up". Roam the earth aimlessly, forego any material possessions. But then, there it is again -- the mundane matters of food, shelter, etc. Maybe I am just too scared to see how far I could get along just "winging" it. I haven't quite yet worked up the guts to just chuck it all. Strange sentiment, for a Pisces. Damned Taurus moon must be to blame...

And one last thing. I am currently reading "The Alchemist". The circumstances under which I came to do so are quite telling but I will get into that another time. If you've read it, you will know what I mean when I refer to our dialogue as a sort of "omen" (as far as I am concerned, anyway). Much of what occupies your mind is also on my own (if I may be so bold as to take ownership for a moment here ... I can hardly help it when the idea is built into our way of speaking at present)... and having had the opportunity to discuss and share ideas with you has certainly opened up a few doors of perception, to partially steal a word or two from William Blake.

Oh, last thing - promise. You refer to God almost as a person or entity. I was raised Catholic and am familiar with this way of thinking. But I can't help but question if our idea of "God" is all wrong. I have been puzzling with this question at length, to receive no satisfactory answers.

By the way, what is the sign you were born under? I am curious to know. I suspect a water sign perhaps? Or maybe Virgo figures into the equation somewhere??

Again, thank you for indulging me. I find that our conversation has challenged me to think more deeply about several issues and I appreciate that.

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quiksilver
Knowflake

Posts: 568
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001

posted April 09, 2004 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for quiksilver     Edit/Delete Message
Hmmm... now that I'm thinking of it.... maybe you are fire? Was just reading some of your other posts (as well as my last one, which contains a grammatical error, much to my chagrin) and it seems that your passion is indicative of this element. Well anyway, who knows.... may as well stop guessing while I'm ahead ....

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pixelpixie
Knowflake

Posts: 5301
From: Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2005

posted April 09, 2004 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pixelpixie     Edit/Delete Message
( I believe he is a .)
But I am not an authority on his signs, he is......
Sorry to interrupt.. carry on.....

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quiksilver
Knowflake

Posts: 568
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001

posted April 10, 2004 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for quiksilver     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Pix,
Thanx for the info. Don't worry about interrupting! It doesn't look like we're "carrying on" anyway at this point... Unless you have something to say about this topic, and then perhaps you and I can carry on ourselves

quik

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pixelpixie
Knowflake

Posts: 5301
From: Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2005

posted April 10, 2004 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pixelpixie     Edit/Delete Message
Gosh, quiksilver, thanks for the invite, but I'd rather not blow my mind..
I am what I am and I K-now what I K-now ( and it continues to evolve), I believe what I believe and I respect others for K-nowing what they K-now as well.... That's the bottom line for me.. I am not in a spellunking state of mind right now, I just want to stay bobbing on the surface....
But I thought i'd respond because you invited me... Thanks

*bows graciously*

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quiksilver
Knowflake

Posts: 568
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001

posted April 11, 2004 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for quiksilver     Edit/Delete Message
No problem, pix! And thank you for the courtesy of your response!


-quik

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dafremen
unregistered
posted April 12, 2004 01:30 PM           Edit/Delete Message
I was going to write about the 6 hours Q.S., but my time is limited today. I'll make it a priority next time I'm at the library.

I'm Libran(12th house Sun), with a Cancer Moon, Scorpio Ascendant and a stellium in Virgo. So you're right on all counts. (My singleton Saturn is opposite the rest of my planets and is in Aries.)

Here's the chart:

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quiksilver
Knowflake

Posts: 568
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001

posted April 12, 2004 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for quiksilver     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Daf,
Wow. So I wasn't all that far off the mark after all. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. By the way, I know all about blasted time constraints. I regularly work 60-70 hour weeks and by the time I get home it's nearly 10pm. Considering I walk out the door at 7, that doesn't leave me with a whole lot of leisure. But that's just my life for now. Later will be different. Anyway, I'll hear about your 6 hrs. when the time is right. Just for the record, I am:

Sun- Pisces
Moon - Taurus
Asc - Virgo
Mercury - Aquarius
Mars- Aquarius
Saturn- Leo
Jupiter - Taurus
Pluto - Libra
Neptune- Sagittarius
Venus - Aries
Uranus - Scorpio

That's 2 waters, 3 earths, 3 airs and 3 fires; 3 mutable, 6 fixed, 2 cardinal. Hmmm, a few too many fixed influences for my own good, maybe.

Also, for the record, I noticed that per the chart, your first name is Roger. I had an "imaginary" friend named Roger when I was little. Can't remember much else about him except that he used to come for dinner all the time. I do remember telling Roger to sit down at the table properly and my parents would both get a good laugh out of the whole thing. In my mind's eye, he was about 6'1", had brown hair and wore eyeglasses. He looked like the intellectual type. Straight out of academia.... Such strange memories are coming back to me now.....

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lllog
Knowflake

Posts: 1142
From: Springfield MO
Registered: Jun 2002

posted April 13, 2004 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lllog     Edit/Delete Message
Your title might have been better titled "conviction doesn't mean truth".

Lanny

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dafremen
unregistered
posted April 13, 2004 12:46 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Wouldn't no it.

Love,

daf

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Solane Star
Knowflake

Posts: 5378
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2005

posted April 21, 2004 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solane Star     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Guys,

I'm new to this site and have been reading alot of the forums and really enjoy the topics that are discussed here. I also love Linda Goodman,and recieved my first copy of Sun Signs when I was 9 years of age,but did not read it until I was 17 years old. I had recieved 3 more copies by then and took it to be a sign that I read this book, the second book ever that I had read in my life. I would have to say that this was my first step on my path, to my core self as I call it.

Your converation on such matters really caught my eye and reminded me of another site that I Just found about a month or so ago. I have found this to be alot like what was being dicussed and his many answers to this questions at hand. I hope you find these lectures of some help and sightful as I. The site is (http://www.pathwork-guide-lectures.info/lectures/lecturesread.htm)

Truly Blessed To Share!
Thanks Solane Star

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Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 25287
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted April 21, 2004 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Welcome!

------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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dafremen
unregistered
posted April 27, 2004 04:43 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Ok Q.S. I wrote a little something for you under a post called Ramble Me This Dafman...


Love,

daf

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