posted May 09, 2005 02:52 PM           

This has very recently been a topic of conversation between my friends and I actually, and here's my two cents.

Idealistically, I think smacking children is completely wrong. Fair enough it says in the bible 'spare the rod and spoil the child' but as with most things in the bible I believe it is a symbolic statement. Afterall, there is no way that wine can be turned into blood and bread into flesh! It has taken a long time to get the notion of a child been tamed by being hit, very much similar to cattle prodding, and it will probably take a long time to get that habit (culture!) out of our present consciousness, but I would very much like to see that happen.
I come from a black African family and with 'us' it is the norm. If your parents didnt hit you, as an african child...needless to say, it just doesnt exist.

Realistically, children are developing a whole lot faster these days. And it seems that as soon as they spring forth from the womb, they already start intellectualising. Gone are the days when instinct takes precedence, where all you had to do was look at a child and they would KNOW, you know. Hitting may probably discipline them faster.

Though even if you manage to keep your child under that idealistic notion, at school they will most probably be hit by another child... and then it begins.

posted May 09, 2005 03:09 PM           

When I really screwed up, the GUILT TRIP worked every time. Even when I realized what it was.
My mom scared me, but she's a scary woman when she's mad. It only took a cold look, but when she was exasperated, she could fly off the handle. I never was abused, though, and never felt abused. I've had friends who were seriously abused, so a smack didn't seem like anything compared. I've learned that when I'm mad, no matter how mad I am, I don't even think of hitting. It just doesn't cross my mind. Unless, of course, I'm attacked first.

I don't think abuse is ever right, and I don't think I'll spank my kids when I have them (I'm not against the occasional spank or threat of it). But, you have to let them know when they've crossed the line some way. I think if kids think you are a push over, they will test and test. You have to have control in those situations. Ever kid is different, though. When a "discussion" works for one kid, it's totally ineffectual for another. My opinion is to tailor disciplinary actions to fit the kid and the situation. But, I don't have kids so my opinions are fairly invalid.

Time-outs always sucked and is pretty hands off for the parent. Sitting in the corner was effective for me. I would sit there and plan my revenge, but by the time it was over I really didn't care anymore.

posted May 09, 2005 03:36 PM         

Disciplining your child without physical punishment is a very difficult task for some to take on, I think. Much easier said than done. (Again, not for all, but for some.)

???? I think what's most important is for a parent to know what their policy is, and if spanking is a part of that policy, then it should be carried out appropriately.

*** One thought on sparing the rod... many believe the rod was used to guide the sheep, not strike the sheep.

I guess the spanking thing goes like so many other things in parenthood: We have our ideal situation, but life rarely deals us that ideal hand and we're human-- prone to our circumstances, our emotions, our psychology. Looking back, I can't say that I've fulfilled anything in the ways I set out to do. But I talk to my child. Communication is so important. Since we have communication, when I screw up I can say so. Of course that doesn't erase my mistakes. I try to do as much good as I can when I can.

Parenthood is a strange journey, indeed! And the roles of teacher and student are everchanging.

posted May 09, 2005 03:42 PM           

- Charles Alexander Eastman (Ohiyesa)
Santee Sioux

"It was our belief that the love of possessions is a weakness to be overcome. Its appeal is to the material part, and if allowed its way, it will in time disturb one's spiritual balance. Therefore, children must early learn the beauty of generosity. They are taught to give what they prize most, that they may taste the happiness of giving.
If a child is inclined to be grasping, or to cling to any of his or her little possessions, legends are related about the contempt and disgrace falling upon the ungenerous and mean person...
The Indians, in their simplicity literally give away all that they have -- to relatives, to guests of other tribes or clans, but above all to the poor and the aged, from whom they can hope for no return."

posted May 10, 2005 04:24 AM           

But I'd never agree to hitting or spanking, I don't like that at all. I actually think it would make the child an angry bitter person long term and affraid. Those aren't the kinds of feelings parents should instill in their children.

posted May 10, 2005 02:09 PM           

I guess I need a clarification on what you are asking... Would I believe that smacking a child is the same as smacking an adult? I would never seek to, all out, punch my children in the face and, I teach the ' turn the other cheek', so, would'nt do so, in the case of an adult. I DO, however, see a very LARGE difference, between an attention getting swat on the rear and, the ' Mama gonna knock you out! ' upper cut, or ' left hook '. I started out with the same intentions and, plans that Future_Uncertain has given and, have learned many things since. Most important being, that you can make the most beautiful and serene and peace loving plan in the universe and, then reality hits you with one of those ' left hooks '! The first time that I felt need to make contact with my son, via the direct route, it was without anger( and I believe that, therein lies the difference between an attention seeker and what becomes abuse). He was about 2 and, discovered the little holes in the wall. I have never been one to treat my children as if they had no sense at all and, instead have always been of a high faith, that a brain was given and, that it was fully functional from it's completion. So, I first sat with him and told him about it, I even showed him by pluging in my vaccum. Anyway, reason did not win and, I am of the opinion that, my attention getting swat on his rear end was a hell of a lot LESS painful, then him getting the shock of his little life! And, no, I have not given into the whole ' child-proof ' everything..... I am here and trial and error was my existance. I believe that ' child-proofing ' is just another way for people to be less involved, just like the television. It carries the same idea as ' Teach a Man to fish... ' . I taught my kids what the cleaners under the sink were for and, how they were different from the gallon of milk in the fridge. They, actually, want to help me clean! My husband was raised by the belt, as was my Dad. Niether one has any negative feelings and, in fact, both cherish their parents and, think the world of them. Someone wrote that their belief is that, it lies with the individuals involved and, that every situation and child, brings about a different method that brings success. I agree. Abuse is NEVER ok but, there is quite a difference...

posted May 11, 2005 03:49 PM           

He doesn't fear me, he's not scarred for life, he's a really well behaved and great kid and I haven't even had the need to bring up the concept of spanking in over a year.

My mother had spanked me a couple times when I was a kid. I didn't feel like she hated me at all. It was in extreme circumstances when I was acting like a complete idiot.

It's really easy to say it's unnecessary for other families when you don't know anything about that family.

posted May 11, 2005 09:22 PM           

Spanking a child is not child abuse... nor is it hateful.

I have spanked my children in their lives. It's been a long time, but I've done it... and I'll do it again when/if I see fit.

I do, however, believe it is wrong to spank a child out of anger.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with using spanking as a last resort.

I know people who don't spank their kids, and it's those kids that need it most. Some of the most disrespectful children I've ever met have the "I won't spank" type parent.

Certain behavior is just simply not tolerated, and the best way (sometimes) to make that impression is with a nice firm swat to the rear.

posted May 11, 2005 11:00 PM         

(I wrote LibraSparkly first! LOL. I kind of liked it!)

I know what kind of kids you mean who act like maniacs and their parents won't spank. I think the reason for that is some parents think that, not only will they not spank, they won't discipline at all. Fortunately, lots of parents who don't spank know that they still need to discipline. I know some lovely children who have never been spanked... but they sure know how to behave.
*****************************************

I think a lot depends on circumstances. Some parents have the time to send a child to timeout 20 times. Ideally I would like to believe that any parent who wanted to do the right thing for their child would find this kind of time. But I don't have it. So my ideal just isn't feasible for most. Does that mean I love my child any less? No. It means I don't work that way and I know my limitations. I congratulate those parents who do have the time and patience to discipline this way, and for those like me... I congratulate you too. Life is hard. Parenting is hard. Childhood is hard. We all get through it the best ways we know how.

posted May 12, 2005 01:05 PM         

Nothing worse than a parent who doesn't pay attention, and misses the warning signs that will bring in the real problems later

I have thought a lot about this and the MOST important thing we can do to teach our children, is to prepare them for taking responsibilities for their own actions.

posted September 08, 2006 05:57 PM         

I'm sensitive too but I certainly don't think my mother was a monster for giving out spankings sometimes.It wasn't frequently because usually we didn't get on her case. She's was/is a single mother, what you gonna do? I actually find it offensive that people are making such statements like "people who spank their children make them sick". Go on with your self-righteous attitude.

Now my stepmother's children should've been disciplined more-they never listen even when she tried reasoning with them. But still, she never spanked them or raised her voice to them-even when they called her names such as "b1tch". I swear if she had done differently they would've been better behaved children. Thats my opinion, if you don't like it, thats fine but I feel I have the right to criticize her since she's always been so quick to put down my mother.

posted September 09, 2006 12:27 AM           

Any parent who can't control or discipline their kids in a reasonable manner, and whom must resort to violent acts, need to go to childrearing 101 classes, really and get some HELP.

Too many parents have little to no parenting skills, (yet who admits it?) too many more have little to no support (physical, mental or emotional...financially)it's the toughest most rewarding job in the world, yet we all think it's so '**** easy' any one can do it, and don't give it the respect and honour it deserves.

Don't hit the kids, teach them properly in the first instance, realise 'I' or 'we' are the adults, and ACT like one.

posted September 09, 2006 02:33 AM           

Beautiful post.

posted September 09, 2006 03:34 AM           

My sister said to me once "how would we like it if a giant came up to us and hit us with hands two or three times the size of ours.....that is how it must be for children who are smacked by adults".....

My father still apologises for the time he hit me across the legs....even now at aged 80. He says it was wrong....aaahhh well at least he is sorry......and although I wouldnt tell him this. I hated it, it made me very angry and bitter cos I got hit from time to time....

Lessons to be learned for all of us...

I believe in karma....as we hit, we so shall be hit...do unto others.

posted September 09, 2006 07:59 AM         

I don’t think spanking and hitting is the same thing... You don’t need to hurt a child when you spank him. Hurting is totally unacceptable. But a warning spank sometimes is necessary. Children will test the ground and go as far as you allow them.

A spank reminds them where limits are. And I repeat, it doesn’t need to really hurt them to be effective. It’s only a warning, not a true punishment… It’s the same than getting slightly burnt to learnt to be careful and respect fire… There are ways to smack children… We were never hit by my parents, but sometimes, when we went over the limits, we got a slight spank on the butt (sometimes even with nappies on) with my mum’s slipper as a reminder… Not traumatic, not painful… but effective…

As a rule of thumb, I’d say never on the head or face, and never leaving marks. And of course as a last resort, when reasoning has been already tried…

I think society is getting to a ridiculous point regarding this subject. From one extreme to the other. Now you get children so full of themselves, so opinionated, so much thinking that they are adults and what it’s worse, who believe that have the right to misbehave because they have a personality. But they are not adults. They need to be guided, to be put limits, to learn to live in a society. Really silly…

Adults that never eat fish or vegetables because “they don’t like them” because they never tried them only because they were never made to eat them when children. And threw it up on the plate not being smacked… Because they could not be smacked. You can’t reason out with a child that he should eat up all that brocoli because it’s good for this or that thing in his body that he doesn’t even know that exists…

It’s like we are so scared of disciplining our children just in case we would be traumatising them. Smacking is not hurting, it’s showing the limits in a basic language that doesn’t need to be traumatising…

You only need to see what children are becoming nowadays. Little monsters. Spoilt little monsters that would threat you with demanding you to the authorities if you dare to force them to do something…

posted September 09, 2006 05:27 PM           

But...can I just say, spanking is hurting/hitting all those things, It's true children will test the ground, it's part of our natural developmental process. Teaching children boundaries need not involve spanking, there are other far more effective methods. Remember We are the adults, therefore we have ALL the advantage, height, weight, cognitive reasoning and if our own developmental process have been helped not hindered, we've usually got the emotional advantage too.

Children often respond to spanking, hitting whatever you want to call it, in a manner that's not blatantly clear to us as parents, they may become bullies at school or to younger siblings, there are too many possibilities.

In my experiences, spanking children should be avoided, we should use our superior mental prowess to find another less humiliating method for discipline (teaching) our kids. What does a parent do when their son reaches 15, and is taller and stronger than themselves, suddenly the 'spanking' method of discipline, becomes redundant, and as my sister in law is discovering just now, it's too damn late to try anything else.

posted September 09, 2006 05:32 PM           

Yes I agree totally.....

************************************
"There is no such thing as a "good" smack
Aggression merely encourages more aggression
In the recipient"

"Mol na hoige agus tiocfaidh siad
(Praise the children an they will progress)"

***********************************

posted September 09, 2006 10:02 PM         

But problems like that I think too often come up (not always, but often) because the parents weren't paying enough attention. I realize kids are fast and accidents happen but boundaries need to be set and followed consistently. Kids need routines to feel safe, to understand the world around them. Grownups like to take breaks and do what we want every now and then. But children are genuinely confused when a routine is broken. Giving in once on a set rule is breaking a routine and it will confuse them even if we think nothing of it at the time. Then the child becomes a bit more defiant when they can't decide to break the routine ... and the cycle begins.

One of the biggest problems I'm seeing as a new parent is that other parents try to discipline their children when they themselves have no discipline. They tell their kids not to eat candy while they eat donuts or fast food every day. They scream at their kids to stop yelling. They tell their kids to pick up their toys but the rest of the house is a mess. Children are sponges! With a "do as I say, not as I do" attitude no child is going to understand what the rules are because of all the mixed messages around them.

But try telling that to some bratty little kid's parents. Excuses, excuses, "I'm an adult ... I can do what I want ..." blah blah blah. Sure you can do what you want ... but what you are in effect teaching your child is that they can do what they want to do, too. You cannot reason with children when they are little ... which is when introducing discpline is most important. We teach by example, even if we are not aware of it.