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Author Topic:   Salvia Divinorum
Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted December 07, 2006 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
I'm not quite ready to talk about my experience with this shamanic plant, which is smoked by certain tribal peoples during rituals, to induce trance states and vision quests.

I was wondering if anybody here has had an experience, and would they care to try and articulate it?


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sue g
Knowflake

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From: former land of the leprechaun
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posted December 07, 2006 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sue g     Edit/Delete Message
Is this the same thing HSC?

Salvinorin A:
Notes of Caution by Daniel J. Siebert
(Previously published in "The Entheogen Review" Vol. 3, No.4: Winter Solstice, 1994)

Salvinorin A (the major active principal of the plant Salvia divinorum) is an extremely powerful consciousness altering compound. In fact it is the most potent naturally occurring hallucinogen thus far isolated. But before would-be experimenters get too worked-up about it, it should be made clear that the effects are often extremely unnerving and there is a very real potential for physical danger with its use.

When the herb Salvia divinorum is consumed either by smoking the dried leaf or chewing the fresh leaves the effects are usually (but not always) pleasant and interesting, this is because when used this way the amount of salvinorin A absorbed into the blood stream is usually very small and in the case of the chewed leaves it is absorbed into the blood stream very gradually.

The pure compound salvinorin A is active at 200 - 500 mcg when vaporized and inhaled. Since very few people have the costly equipment necessary to accurately weigh anything close to this small an amount, it is inevitable that people will try to visually estimate the dose. Unfortunately there is little room for error before the effects become potentially dangerous. When the dose goes above 500 - 1000 mcg the effects can be very alarming, I have seen several people get up and lunge around the room falling over furniture, babbling incomprehensible nonsense and knocking their heads into walls. Several people have tried to wander out of the house. When the experience is over they have no memory of any of this. In fact they usually remember very different events. To an outside observer people in this condition have a blank look in their eyes as if no one is present (and perhaps no one is). It is also common for people to have a facial expression which is probably best described as being like that of a frightened animal. It appears that at these "larger" doses one completely loses awareness of, and control over, the physical body and for some reason part of the brain causes the body to get up and move about recklessly while the individual has no awareness of where their physical body is or what it is doing. It seems inevitable that one of these days some careless person will do too large a dose without a sitter and will wander out in the street, or hurt themselves in some way.

Because the dose is so small and insignificant looking, there is a tendency for people to think they need more than what they are told is a safe dose. Another problem is that the technique of vaporizing and inhaling the compound can be a bit tricky. Salvinorin A has a relatively high boiling point and people often don't get it hot enough to remain a gas all the way down into the lungs. Another problem is that so little is used that the vapor often disperses before it gets inhaled. Sometimes people just don't hold the vapor in their lungs long enough for thorough absorption. Several people after trying a dose in the recommended safe range and not getting an effect assumed that they needed a larger dose, when in fact the problem was that they did not vaporize the material efficiently the first time. I have already seen more than one intelligent, careful and experienced person accidentally do too large a dose because of this. Fortunately they had sitters and managed to get through the experience safely.

It is also important to understand that there have been no toxicological studies of this compound in humans. It is true that the Mazatecs have used the plant for a very long time and don't seem to have problems with it, but when the pure compound is used it would be a simple matter to consume a dose hundreds of times greater than anything ever encountered by the Mazatecs.

Not only is salvinorin A chemically different from other hallucinogens (it is a diterpene not an alkaloid) but its effects are quite different as well. Many people consider the effects less manageable and harder to work with than other entheogens. The majority of people who have had a full blown experience with salvinorin A are reluctant to ever do it again. Anyone choosing to experiment with this compound should always have an alert, clear-thinking sitter present to prevent them from injuring themselves or others.

Salvia divinorum as an herb can be used quite safely and many people claim that it has proved beneficial to them. Hopefully there will not be a rush to isolate the pure compound as it is almost inevitable that it will cause problems, people will get hurt, the compound and possibly the plant will get negative attention and it will become scheduled. We will just be adding one more potentially valuable plant ally to the list of species which are already feared and condemned in our society. If you choose to pursue a relationship with this plant please treat it with respect and care. Perhaps if people can use the plant safely and responsibly it will be able to grow and thrive freely into the future.


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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted December 07, 2006 02:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
[edited to add:
the stuff I smoked was the resin-laced stuff,
and the most potent of the resin-laced Salvias offered
Something like 40 or 80x the natural potency,
and definitely NOT recommended for first timers.]


That's the one.

I had a full blown experience alright.
I took two huge hits and held them for almost half a minute each(!).

It was like waking up during surgery,
and finding my life being operated on.

It was some terror-striken "Vanilla Sky" sh-t.

It was the most serious five-ten minutes of my life.
I never want my life to get that serious again.

I could say a lot more.

I think I am fine now.

But life is strange.

And the very awareness I have now,
of just how strange life can get,
is a little sobering and unnerving.

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sue g
Knowflake

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From: former land of the leprechaun
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posted December 07, 2006 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sue g     Edit/Delete Message
Are you gonna just give us a smell teeny weeny clue...like one word....for now

Please?

x

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted December 07, 2006 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Huh?

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BlueRoamer
Knowflake

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From: Calm Blue Ocean, Calm Blue Ocean
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posted December 07, 2006 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message
I saw people use it in my college days. Didn't have any effect, must not have done it right.

Sounds intense.

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MysticMelody
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posted December 07, 2006 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
>"It was like waking up during surgery,
and finding my life being operated on."< hsc

Were you aware of other entities or a larger consciousness? Were you observing, like with an OBE? Were you thinking someone/something else's thoughts? What feelings did you have? Was it fear of the unknown or a crawly fear?

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tuxedo meow
Knowflake

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From: Texas Gulf Coast, USA
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posted December 08, 2006 12:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tuxedo meow     Edit/Delete Message
Received a cutting of the same plant via mail and am rooting it now-used purple plate to help it get started! This is not a plant to take lightly!! it will give you a shamanic experience- and can leve 'residue'? you will need to work out later-i do want to hear all from your experience...

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hippichick
Knowflake

Posts: 1981
From: The Ether
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posted December 08, 2006 02:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hippichick     Edit/Delete Message
Where did you all find the plant???

My 18 year old told me about it, and have looked everywhere for it and can not find the correct type of Salvia--

Tuxedo, I am in San Antonio--any advice of where to look?

Thanks

Terri

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sue g
Knowflake

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From: former land of the leprechaun
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posted December 08, 2006 03:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sue g     Edit/Delete Message
I asked for a clue before you added to your post, as you seemed to be slow to share the experience

Thanks for sharing HSC....

Are you okay now?

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D for Defiant
Knowflake

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From:
Registered: May 2006

posted December 08, 2006 04:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for D for Defiant     Edit/Delete Message
Worth-noticing topic.

Are you okay now, HSC ?

I hope you are at least feeling better.

Sue G, I'll print out your informative post (your first one that I'm referring to) for more convenient reading for myself.

I remember a while ago I saw Cardinalgal's thread about LSD research; also a topic "Marijuana- yay or nay?" in Teen Spirit. I'd like to print them both out as well to read.

I've only smoked cannabis several times, but was never a regular user. Its effects on me were, thankfully, rather mild. Still, my consciousness was apparently no longer in my own control, and in short terms, it just altered my conscious/mental states, albeit never seriously.

Personally, I would do my best to avoid that kind of stuff in the future. I just prefer my mind to be clear, that's all.

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Harpyr
Knowflake

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From: land of the midnight sun
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posted December 08, 2006 06:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
I tried Salvia about 6 years ago with a friend of mine. I didn't really feel much of anything..a very mild lightheadedness for a couple minutes but that's it. My guy friend had a much more intense experience though. I've heard that it affects men much more strongly than women. I wasn't impressed. *shrug*

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted December 08, 2006 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
SALVIA DIVINORUM BASICS
The botanical name Salvia divinorum means "Sage of the Diviners." Under the right conditions, taken in the right way, Salvia produces a unique state of "divine inebriation." For hundreds of years, it has been used in religious and healing ceremonies by the Mazatec Indians, who live in the province of Oaxaca, in Mexico.

Salvia leaf is physically quite safe. It is very gentle on the body. Toxicological studies have shown that salvinorin A is extraordinarily non-toxic. No one has ever died from a Salvia overdose. Salvia is not habit-forming or addictive. People who choose to use Salvia, tend to do so quite infrequently. Salvia is not a stimulant, it is not a sedative, it is not a narcotic, it is not a tranquilizer. Like many entheogens, at sufficiently high doses it can induce visions, yet it is quite different from other entheogens. Dale Pendell, in his book Pharmako/poeia, assigns Salvia divinorum to a unique pharmacological class, which he calls "existentia." This term alludes to the philosophical illumination Salvia seems to shine on the nature of existence itself.
http://www.sagewisdom.org/usersguide.html

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted December 08, 2006 12:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
The SALVIA Experiential Rating Scale

Level -1 "S stands for SUBTLE effects." A feeling that "something" is happening, although it is difficulty to say just what. Relaxation and increased sensual appreciation may be noted. This mild level is useful for meditation and may facilitate sexual pleasure.
Level - 2 "A stands for ALTERED perception." Colors and textures are paid attention to. Appreciation of music may be enhanced. Space may appear of greater or lesser depth than is usual. But visions do not occur at this level. Thinking becomes less logical, and more playful; short term memory difficulties are may be noted.

Level - 3 "L" stands for LIGHT visionary state." Closed eye visuals (clear imagery with eyes closed: fractal patterns, vinelike and geometric patterns, visions of objects and designs). The imagery is often two dimensional. If open eyed visual effects occur these are usually vague and fleeting. At this level phenomena similar to the hypnagogic phenomena that some people experience at sleep onset occur. At this level visions are experienced as "eye candy" but are not confused with reality.

Level - 4 "V stands for VIVID visionary state." Complex three dimensional realistic appearing scenes occur. Sometimes voices may be heard. With eyes open contact with consensual reality will not be entirely lost, but when you close your eyes you may forget about consensus reality and enter completely into a dreamlike scene. Shamanistic journeying to other lands, foreign or imaginary; encounters with beings, entities, spirits; or travels to other ages may occur. You may even live the life of another person. At this level you have entered the shaman's world. Or if you prefer you are in "dream time." With eyes closed you experience fantasies (dream like happenings, with a story line to them). So long as your eyes are closed you may believe they are really occurring. This differs from the "eye candy" closed eye imagery, of level 3.

Level - 5 "I" stands for IMMATERIAL existence." At this level consciousness remains and some thought processes are still lucid, but one becomes completely involved in inner experience and loses all contact with consensual reality. Individuality may be lost; one experiences merging with God/dess, mind, universal consciousness, or bizarre fusions with other objects real or imagined, e.g. merging with a wall may be experienced. At this level it is impossible to function in consensual reality, but unfortunately some people do not remain still but move around in this befuddled state. For this reason a sitter is essential to ensure the safety of someone voyaging to the inner levels. To the person experiencing this, the phenomenon may be terrifying or exceedingly pleasant; but to an outside observer the individual may appear confused or disoriented.

Level 6 - "A stands for AMNESIC effects " At this stage either consciousness is lost; or at least one is unable to later recall what one is experiencing. The individual may fall, or remain immobile or thrash around; somnambulistic behavior may occur; injuries can be sustained without pain being felt; on awakening the individual will have no recollection of what he/she did, experienced or said in level 6. People cannot ever recall what they experience in this very deep trance state. This is not a sought after level as later nothing can be recalled of the experience.

Q. What is the salvia afterglow?
A. There are two kinds of afterglow effects: immediate and persisting. The immediate afterglow probably is due to the residual pharmacological effects of salvinorin A (some of which is presumably still present in the body for about an hour or longer after the primary effects have subsided). This immediate afterglow is often described as a vague sense of peaceful euphoria lasting an hour (or a bit longer) after the obvious intoxication has worn off.

What is more interesting is that a surprisingly large proportion of salvia users report a second type of afterglow, the persisting type. It typically involves mood elevation, an overall sense of well being, and often a fresh outlook on life which can linger for several days (or longer) after the experience. This phenomenon seems to be quite common. For example, in a small online poll every one of the eleven poll respondents reported experiencing an afterglow. Three people reported it lasted one day or less (this probably represented the immediate type of afterglow discussed above). But six reported mood elevation lasting between one and three days. And two respondents reported mood elevation lasting beyond three days.

Differing hypotheses have been advanced to account for the persisting type of afterglow. It may represent a phase in which the person is psychologically integrating the experience. Alternatively it may have an as yet unknown neuropharmacological explanation. Those who think of the salvia experience in religious, spiritual, or mystical terms may speak of such things as enlightenment, satori, and "cleansing the doors of perception." Psychological, physical and spiritual explanations are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

In a published case report a clinically significant antidepressant effect of low dose salvia (chewed and held in the mouth) was reported for a single patient. The patient intentionally used the afterglow phenomenon for self treatment.

http://www.sagewisdom.org/faq.html#Section%202

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted December 08, 2006 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
I mostly experienced what it says for "Level 5", but I also experienced some of the things discussed for levels 6. I didnt have much in the way of visions (although my vison was very skewed), but, then, I have experimented extensively w/ pschotropic substances, and i rarely have visuals - mostly, I have inspired thoughts, revelations, and enthusiasms.

At one point, in this Salvia experience, I merged with a couch. I thought I was sown into it, and that it was also "sown" into the fabric of the greater universe, all of which was warped by a gravity which seemed to come from all sides, at different times (but which was really the resistance felt on my body from the long-sleeved shirt I was wearing). It was less than pleasant.

Thank you, everyone, for your concern.
I am doing okay now.

To answer Mystic's questions -

My experience was greatly colored by the fact that I did not know what it was or what i was getting into, and the person who gave it to me treated it and me with very little respect. I was toyed with, basically, while on the drug. As it started (it kicks in, and goes from 0 to 300mph in about ten seconds) He said, in this really evil voice, "Buckle up, Stevie. Bye bye!" Then he had me on a webcam, which i did not know about before hand, and forgot about after, until it was shown to me. That is part of what made me think I was plucked out of my life and being shown it from some other vantage point. Here was this big bald muscle-bound aggressive russian kid saying, "Try to relax, this will only take a minute." And I am thinking he is some otherworldly being whose job it is to monitor and tinker with my existence! I thought a seam came loose in the fabric of my life (I was trying to make sense of the "fact" that I was now part of the couch and everything else), and he was like a cosmic dentist or surgeon. I wasnt sure if he was going to "put me back" or not. I didnt know how scared i ought to be. I thought he might cut into me, or toss me in the toxic bio-hazardous waste bin, or something. I didnt know. I was so close to absolute terror.

On the tape, you can see me stumbling around, lunging at him, and you can hear me pleading, in this utterly helpless, slurred voice, "What's happening?!!... What's happening?!?!... Are YOU doing this?... What's going on?!?!... Are you doing this?... Make it stop!!...,". I was so scared, and trying so hard to get the words out, to interact with, and get an intelligible reaction from, my environment. He had no idea how negative and powerful my reaction was, and he was too dumb to see it.

Luckily, another friend of mine was there, and he heard me from another room and came in and explained to me that i had just smoked a drug and it would be over in a matter of minutes. This helped greatly.

I was not out of body. It was "p.o.v.", but, like in the movies, I was totally fish-eyed, and in the periphery of my vision the universe was melting and stretching and dropping away. The only remotely stable thing was that which stood directly in my line of vision (which I could not keep fixed, so, you can try to imagine).

I was not thinking anything other than the things I have already mentioned, about how my life seemed to have been interrupted, and I was afraid what might happen next, if i was going to come back, or move on to something else, heaven, hell, dementia. At several points, and even as it was wearing off, I was very concerned that I might have gone insane and might end up in an institution, or worse. It is difficult to convey how lucid and articulate I was, after the first few minutes, while still experiencing an utterly foreign and disconcerting inner state and outer view of the world. I could easily imagine having to go through life this way, and what it must be like for many deranged people.

The over-riding residue from the experience is the feeling of violation at the hands of this person who gave me the drug and then proceeded to literally haunt my "trip". I'm not sure what it would have been like if he hadnt been there saying and doing what he said and did. I do feel especially mindful and compassionate now toward anyone or anything that experiences helplessness.

I do not mean to compare my experience to that of someone who has been raped, but I do feel it was similar, in some small way. I felt totally violated. Now, I even feel slightly ashamed to be finding redeeming qualities about this experience, and to find myself as interested and even excited by it as I've been in the past by more positive psychedelic experiences. Perhaps the fact that it was so unreal is a large part of what allows me to put it behind me and feel detached from it. At the time, though, it was dead serious, and, mad as I was, if I hadnt been so confused and struck by the absurdity of the thing, I would have been absolutely furious with this person for what he did to me. I feel that taking responsibility for myself, in this case, involves not only being aware that there are people like him out there whom I ought to be more distrustful of, but, making him aware of the consequences of his behavior towards me.

My feelings were mostly shock, fear, profound confusion, and anticipation of absolute terror. It was fear of the unknown, but also, fear of being handled, manipulated, and harmed, while in my helpless state.

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AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA, USA
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posted December 08, 2006 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Sounds absolutely dreadful, and makes me a bit happy at my own staying away from drugs. I will admit that the ingestion of the substance sounds interesting, but smoking it seems quite alarming.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted December 08, 2006 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Again,
I cant over-estimate the importance of the following:
The setting you are in,
The company you keep,
Your full awareness of what you are getting into,
And the dosage taken.

None of those things were taken into account when I did it,
and I believe that made all the difference.

My bad experience, AG,
is not on account of using drugs,
but, of abusing them.
Granted, if you never use,
you never have to worry about abusing,
but, then,
you never get to trip the light fantastic, either.

Believe it or not,
I am looking forward to experimenting with it again,
probably later today.
Mysticism is what interests me in this world.
Some people climb mountains,
and go home with a new perspective on life.
I like to become mountains,
and then go back to being myself
with a new perspective on life.
Climbing mountains, leaping from bridges and planes
with bungey cords and parachutes,
driving a race car...
all of these things are dangerous,
but how many of them practically guarantee you an audience with the divine?

My transits for today and tomorrow:
Sun conjunct Neptune
Sun Sextile Pluto
Jupiter Conjunct Mars and Mercury


hsc


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MysticMelody
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posted December 08, 2006 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
Holy sh!t, Steve. Or unholy sh!t, as the case may be...
I just skimmed your "Stages" above and then read your whole experience. I am going to go back and read the Stages a little later and give a more full response.
I will say for now that I read a few books on shamanic experiences over this last summer because I was introduced to a shaman lady by one of my college mentors who I told of my interest in astrology/metaphysics etc. She recommended a few, two very positive and one that explored and explained his experiences and thoughts while using substances similar or the same as what you are describing. It was VERY intense.
I had a few interesting experiences myself before I became a parent(nothing of that magnitude). I have told my guy friends, and I guess you know this now... that you have to have a guide that you trust when taking these "trips". I don't think it is wise or healthy to just open yourself up to anything and everything without protection and rope or a hand to lead you out. I personally think (from some of the people I have met) that a lot of the people who are on permanent trips are just that...
As someone who studies psychology, I am fascinated by delving into madness...(and I can see that you are too.) I just don't want to stay there, as you mentioned.
I wish I could have been there for you.

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AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA, USA
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posted December 08, 2006 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Interesting. Seems like everyone is experiencing some unusual transits lately.

Oh, and my post wasn't intended to sound judgmental, though I know it probably did (in my dry manner). It's just never been a particular focus of mine. I love to hear the stories, though. I take a kind of vicarious look at a lot of things rather than risking myself. I think I observe from the outside, and what I can't see inside I listen intently for.

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lotusheartone
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Posts: 238
From: MOther & Father GOd
Registered: Feb 2008

posted December 08, 2006 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Oh My Gosh, Steve...

there is nothing divine in drugs

divinity is natural and super
attainable..whenever you wish
Alpha State..of being
One with the Universe

no ingredients required
but
Your Mind and Soul. ...

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MysticMelody
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posted December 08, 2006 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
If you are going to do it again, why not prepare for it with reverence, as you would with a meeting with someone you love? Why not choose some mystical healing music, some white candles, some Nag Champa or another fine oil incense? Have on hand some lovely things to taste and smell and touch. Open yourself to the beauty of nature... yes, a plant or two or some flowers would add beauty and good green energy.

*just lit a Nag...*
If you get lost... just dance along the light of day and follow the mystic melody back home to peace and joy.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted December 08, 2006 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks, AG.
I didnt think you were judging,
but I wasnt sure.
Thank you for clarifying.
I hear you.
I tend to live many things vicariously as well.
(Its more the work than the risk that I disdain.)
A sacred plant like Salvia is something else.
What it can show me, under the proper conditions,
is something I really feel I must see for myself.

I've been so discouraged,
thinking that the experiences I desire
(the ones I read about in the writings of the mystics)
are only to be had along with years of deep meditation.
This gives me some hope.
I mean, I'm all for the Saturnian virtues of patience,
hard work, perseverence, etc. (in theory, mind you),
but I'm Uranian enough to believe in shortcuts,
and Jupiterian enough to wander out a little ways
along this path to see where it leads.
I'll let you know,
as much as words can.


lotusheartone -

Thank you for sharing your beliefs.

I would argue that nothing is unnatural
and the Lord works in ALL SORTS of mysterious ways.

Also, I'm not entirely sure that
there even is anything "ouside" of my Mind and Soul.

Melody -

Thanks for the tips.

I am safe. Promise.


HSC


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InLoveWithLife
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Posts: 1530
From: Wonderland
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posted December 08, 2006 02:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for InLoveWithLife     Edit/Delete Message
HSC, hope you have a good experience. yeah i am a little like AG too, a bit scared of these things. but i certainly am interested in meditation and hypnosis and anything mystical. want to experience all this myself one day. but just too scared to try salvia divinorum

hope u get what you are looking for this time round (and do come back and tell us more timid souls )

ILWL

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lotusheartone
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Posts: 238
From: MOther & Father GOd
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posted December 08, 2006 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
And I will remind you kindly

that God is within

and that some plants
were put here by
alien races

there are no shortcuts
I'm worried about you

and I'm not a worrier

this is Sirius business

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lotusheartone
Knowflake

Posts: 238
From: MOther & Father GOd
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posted December 08, 2006 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Does anyOne happen to have a picture of the plant?

Perhaps there are clues there. ...

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