posted January 08, 2007 11:38 PM         

How old is she.. how long have they been together...What is the nature of their relationship?

Once a judgement is made, keep in mind it is your son, not you who's opinion ( even if she lied) is the one that matters.
It's hard to be a mom, but you do have to let go a lot in order to make it and to continue having prosperous (growth oriented) relationships.
What about Moon sign... can you estimate? I notice you didn't include yours either...and.. what are your son's signs?

posted January 09, 2007 04:24 AM         

One of my mother-in-laws's interfered in our marriage....

Her son (my ex) was scared of her...he wouldnt stand up to her and it was ultimately a contributing factor to us splitting up...

My present husband's mother, never interferes...she is if anything, indifferent, and although I am an intense and passionate Scorpio woman, this suits me and he!

It doesnt actually have anything to do with us who our children choose to live with, sleep with, be with, associate with..

It is their decisions and theirs alone...

They dont belong to us....they are free to make their own choices...

With all due respect, I would back off if I was you....for your son's sake, and because you love him

Trust that his decisions are right for him, even if they arent for you?

posted June 06, 2007 12:41 PM         

Don't tell me about mother-in-laws. Right now I would be suspect of anyone who was saying they were having trouble with a mother-in-law. Oh sure there are bad ones, as there are bad any-in-laws.

LOL and the fact that both of the people who respond to my problem are Scorpio's right away pointing their finger at me, makes me suspect your motives!!

Check out my horoscope before you make assumptions. I was born in Jackson, Michigan April 15, 1949 at 1:31 p.m. My son was born March 7, 1971 at 8:30 a.m. in Thunder Bay, Ontario (Fort William).

I realize that I can only change me, but although you took my post personally it wasn't meant to be totally negative. I have spent countless hours with a counselor trying to figure out what I can do. I am looking for someway to try and fix the problem, and they could not help me figure it out.

posted June 06, 2007 04:41 PM         

Thank you for your reply. LOL I could go and do a search and find pertinent information from my point of view, and no one would have the time to read it all. As in search my hard drive for everything that I have written about my son, his depression, his relationship with me, and with the women that he attracts into his life. There are many issues that led up to this point, and I understand this. I am a forgiving person so expect that everyone else is, or at least should be. LOL even though my father who passed away at 90 this past January, was the epitome of unforgiveness, and unfortunately my son is the same. (My sister and I talk about how much he is like his grandfather, and this likeness would be all genetic, since my son never spent more then 10 hours withing a 50 foot radius of my father. In fact saying 10 hours would be lots.) My son talks about being forgiving, but his actions and speech almost in the same breath tell another story. He has so many things that have happened to him it is actually pitiful. I don't deny that there have been troubles for him, and I take responsibility for what I may have done to cause any of the trouble. But I also know much of what has happened in his adult life is because of the choices he made in haste. He started pointing out to me the 'stuff' he didn't like about his new girlfriend after she came to live with us. He shouldn't have done this because I was noticing things that weren't very impressive, and his comments just added fuel to the fire. Then I found out that even before she met me he was telling her that I was controlling and manipulative. No I am not . . . if I had been controlling and manipulative I wouldn't have lost my business after my husband died. My son was depressed and I tiptoed around him instead of holding him to higher standard. This was the description his brother gave to the situation. In fact he said that was what we all did from the time my son was born. And for the most part he is right, but my son would probably deny that, and be angry at his brother for saying it.

I just wish for my son the ability to move on and be happy. But in the process don't step all over me, and hate me for what was happening in his mind, not what was happening in reality.

I have apologized to him just recently for what he evidently feels is unforgiveable. This would be the second time that I have apologized for some of what he felt needed an apology. I do refuse to put myself in the pit with him. What has happened in the past, with my choices about those happenings, has made me the person I am today. I choose to be happy and healthy. I do not choose to wallow in the mire of self-pity, or self blame.

I cut his girlfriend more slack then most of the people I know would have. Because I was tiptoeing around my son, I didn't lay down the law with her from the beginning as to what would be expected of her as a member of the household. After living through hell, in fact my son putting his hands around my neck in an effort to choke me, I left my home and moved closer to my work, only to find out after a few months that my son was going to leave. I was going to come back for the summer and close up where we live. He hasn't left yet and it doesn't look like he is going to leave. I am still tiptoeing around him, and so I am not saying what I would really like to say to this lazy girlfriend of his. She does so little as to be nothing to help with day to day living chores. Most of the time he cooks their meals and does their laundry, hers too. She gets upset if he asks her to go take laundry out of the dryer, and if she does put a load in, she does not sort even for colors and darks! She won't ask if she can help fix meals, and seldom if ever will say thank you for meals that are cooked for her.

I left in January and when I came back it was evident that they hadn't done any cleaning to speak of while I was gone. We have two large dogs and she has one. While I was away from January until the second week in May, those dogs spent probably over 21 hours a day inside. At least when I only went to work three days out of the week I was here the other four to let them in and out and exercise them, and to keep them company. On many of those days while I was gone, I would say they were alone in the house over 14 hours. How did I learn about this? Well after I came back they were not talking to me very much, and never asked what my plans were going to be. They went to work, leaving here at 6:30 in the a.m. and not getting back until after midnight. Well you could ask how I would know that was happening when I wasn't here? Because a friend who is the wife of one of the people who stays in my house rent free, told me that her husband had made a comment about how long the dogs would be left in the house alone.

LOL so if you can read between the lines then you are aware that there is a lot more to this picture then what is here to read.

I guess before I close I should say what precipitated the choking incident. Everyone can believe what they want, but I pretty well just kept to myself. I wasn't meddling, but there sure was lots of conversation about his girlfriend from his friends. Through a very reliable source I heard about Heidi's old boyfriend being close to his mother, and how she didn't like it. They were living together, in fact buying a house together. She decided to break it off, but didn't move out of the house. When my son met her (online) and then finally went to visit her, she took him to that house to sleep with her. But she told him her old boyfriend was just a roommate. Never said anything about the roommate/old boyfriend previously being her bed partner. I know that my son wondered about it because he came back and was telling me he wondered about the guy as he seemed more interested in her then a roommate would be interested. Again I didn't jump all over this, I just told him that many times one roommate will have un-reciprocated feelings for the other. Well the day that he choked me, I confronted the girlfriend this way. I came out of my office and asked, "Heidi, could you tell me what my itinerary is?" She was all flustered and said she didn't know what I was talking about. That is when I said, I had heard I wasn't going to be living in my home much longer. Well my son went ballistic. He wanted to know who had told me and said where I heard it the people didn't know what they were talking about. Well he was sitting right there at these people's kitchen table with her and didn't deny it. They were appalled that she would say such a thing. Unfortunately, I got ticked and said what I knew about her and the old boyfriend. I told her that her actions spoke volumes about the type of person she was, if she was willing to take my son and sleep with him under the same roof as the old boyfriend. A boyfriend who still had feelings for her. That I knew had my son known what was going on that he wouldn't have gone to sleep at their house. Anyway my son was so angry at me, although he knew that what I had blurted out was true that he put his hands around my neck. After I don't know if it was him restraining himself from actually choking me, or if my guardian angel was there to keep his hands from tightening.

This all is very upsetting for me as I had spent the last 7 years trying to help my son through his depression. In late 2003 and early 2004 he tried three or more times to commit suicide. He used his Zoloft and alcohol on the first attempt, along with some codeine pills. Another attempt with booze and pills, and yet another. But there were numerous times of threatening to kill himself with a gun or by hanging. The best luck we had was a cessation in drinking and then supplements. Iodine was a big factor in controlling seemingly uncontrollable crying. He is an alcoholic, and won't quit drinking. So consequently when I talk to people now I figure depression is no excuse for his lack of accountability.

See Thirteen I told you this would be long, and this is only a tip of the iceberg. I don't think he is particularly happy with this girlfriend, but he is so afraid of being alone. He has so little self respect that he doesn't attract the kind of person that he would really like to have in his life. And don't get me wrong, I wonder at her for sticking around. He isn't such a charm at this point either.

posted June 06, 2007 04:55 PM         

In an effort to explain what kind of a person I am . . .

I agreed that he could ask her to come and live with him. Mistake number one especially without knowing her, and only going on the good things that he said about her.

When he wanted to ask her to marry him, he didn't want to tell me. But when he did I congratulated him and said it was fine. When he couldn't get into town to buy a ring I offered him the only ring that his father had given me in our 30 year relationship, and he took it. I am so happy now that he said he told Heidi it was a loaner, I did get it back. I suggested that he take a portion of the house and turn it into private lodging for him and Heidi. He didn't do it.

Does this sound like a person who is out to sabotage a relationship?

I have always been one who in hearing the bad about someone, would give that person the benefit of the doubt until I found out for myself. Unfortunately this young girl wasn't taught that or as a Scorpio couldn't manage to learn it.

posted June 07, 2007 01:26 PM         

I realize there ar other emotional issues here but if you don't have the basic respect for each others boundaries you might never get to deal with deeper issues.
And i want to say this.. even someone who does suffer with depression, that does not give them permission to ignore your bourndaries.

Sometimes we get ( me included) in thinking that they should know but that is a smoke screen. I think we do that becasue it would be easier than having to confront someone on what they are doing to us that is not acceptable.

posted June 07, 2007 11:37 PM         

Very good advice, but you see the habit of tip-toeing around my son is a hard one to break. It would be great to do what you say, but at this point because he has allowed himself to get out of hand last fall . . . I need to have a moderator.

I have made an effort to talk with Heidi since I have been back, and every time I open my mouth to say something . . . she has to say that she knows. It was something where it was clear that she didn't know because the night before they hadn't accomplished the task that would have saved my son 2 hours, and gas. So without pointing my finger, but just in conversation I was telling her how nice the people are at the store and if the hardware side of the store is closed if you ask they will let you go over and get what you want. She said, I know.

LOL I am being picky and none of this is getting me anywhere. But your advice on getting boundaries set is very good.

posted June 08, 2007 01:16 AM         

You want to get along with her?
It doesn't seem that you do. I saw sabotage for whatever reason, all over your posts.
Point blank, this is your son's relationship and life choice, not yours. Yes, they should both respect you.. but when thinking of the boundaries, what about theirs as well?
I absolutely don't think he should invalidate your role and value in his life, but it seems that if you have a problem with his choice in a partner, it will affect your current relationship with your son.. with respect to how you have been with each other throughout the years.
You should always love your mom.
Maybe you can give him/them a chance to try?

posted June 08, 2007 01:58 PM         

I am sorry that you think I do not want to change. This is not so. I moved out and left the house to them. They were supposed to pay me rent, and discontinued paying. When I inquired about this . . . my son came back to me that he wasn't going to fight over dirt, I could have the place, and that he would be out by May 1st, and then it was June 1st. Let me see what is the day today? June 8, and I now know that he isn't going to leave. LOL other people told me it wasn't going to happen, and I said oh yes it is, he said he was leaving. They pointed out that nothing had been packed up, and I said well they are blue ribbon procrastinators! LOL

When he first told me he was leaving, I felt an obligation to tell the few customers he has left that I would be looking after the business this summer. I found someone to help me, which didn't pan out. By then, Sean had quit his job, and so he has decided he would again take over. I have told him that I will turn over all of the information, and that he will be responsible for telling them when he cannot do it anymore. It is too difficult to find someone to do this type of work, and actually there aren't enough customers left to make it worth someone's while to come and do it. This is another bit of stress that I will not have to worry about. Although, LOL (in case you are unaware LOL is short for laughing out loud.) he is expecting me to answer the phone, take messages and in general look after the paper work. Heidi hasn't any desire to help him.

Oh and when I was telling you about informing Heidi of how to get merchandise from the hardware store, I was just trying to explain to her how it could be done to save a trip. Since he might ask her to pick up something for him I thought this topic might be OK for conversation with her. Earlier in the day I had talked to my son about it, and he chose to say that there wasn't a senior employee there the night before so he could purchase his supplies. I informed him that a senior employee doesn't have to be there. You see we live 20 miles from the nearest town of 1000 minus people. That 20 miles takes a minimum of 30 minutes to drive (one way). All three of us drive trucks, so the gas to drive that 40 mile round trip is significant. Planning your trips makes a lot of common sense wouldn't you think? In my mind if they couldn't afford to pay rent then they should be trying to save money on gas etc.

Since I mentioned getting a mediator in to help with getting things figured out, I figured you would understand that I do want to be part of the solution not the problem. It was in my mind that a mediator could keep everyone from getting angry, and perhaps have some sense come out of all of this. You see my son is very angry at me, at himself, at the world. My level of patience since sometime in the mid 80's has risen to a level that he cannot stand. He says because it takes very extreme measures to make me angry, that I no longer care. I care, I care very much, but yelling at one another isn't going to accomplish anything.

He needs to forgive everyone that he feels in his heart has wronged him. I have apologized for anything that I have done, that he would need to forgive, but I have no control over whether or not he forgives. My other son (who happens to be a stepson) tells me that I did the best that I knew how to do under the circumstances. LOL but he also has raised a child, and so has an idea that it isn't all that easy.

As I said before, your idea of setting boundaries is a good one. One that after the fact I had thought of, but when I try to implement something that would work us towards the boundaries, my son always has a reason why it can't happen. At this point he isn't sure if he wants her in his life. Personally if he is going to blame me for the failure of his relationship . . . well I am hoping they can work it out.

I can see that unless there were an unbiased person here right from the get go, that I will just have to continue muddling through. If he were the same as I am we could start fresh right now. Forgive and move on with a new set of boundaries. I just don't think that is something he can do until he figures out the past.

My mother died when I was six years old. The lessons I learned from her have been life long, and one of those is "If you want to know someone, walk a mile in their shoes." So in my life that is what I try to do. When I meet someone I generally will disclose something of my self, and then take time to listen to them, asking what their life is all about. If they are unhappy I will have an idea why they might be unhappy. If they continue listening I might in conversation have something to say, that will change their life. They might just listen because I listened to them. I come away with far more then what I would of had I not listened. I gain knowledge about how to and how not to live life. This has been a life long philosophy for me, one that generally works. When I met Heidi, I had heard some really good and neat things about her, and I was optimistic that she would be the one who would complete the circle with my son. Since I have learned that much of what she has done was in an effort to manipulate her mother, father, and others. Who did I hear this from? None other then her mother. Did I let Heidi know that is where I heard it? Not on your life, because I wouldn't want the relationship with her mother worsened. A lot of what I found out could be changed, but if she won't acknowledge these things then she will be unable to change the change worthy behaviors. If it were just me that was aware of what is going on here, then I wouldn't be writing these messages. I would be looking inward only, to see what I need to change about me. In this case I can only change my circumstances, and I am the only one who can do that. As to changing me . . . the person, if there is something that I need to change that will make me a better person then I will certainly work on it. The change that I need to make here is one where I organize what needs to be said and done, and get someone in so I can say what needs to be said properly with kindness, but without fear.

posted June 08, 2007 02:35 PM         

You and i are on the verge of an internet arguement and im not going to go there. I have 100 percent sympathy for you, after all we are all connected. I mean it but i can't back down on this. How about reading some books on boundary setting. This helped me a lot. Then at least i can say that i tried to help and then made a graceful exit out of a disagreement.

posted June 08, 2007 02:58 PM         

Please know that I say all I am about to with heartfelt compassion

Your son is 36 years old. It was nice of you to give up the house to him. But nice isn't working. I can only go by what I've read, but it would seem that you are enabling him. Anyone else in the world that doesn't pay their bills will sooner or later face the consequences of their actions. Sometimes you have to give "tough love".. and break the cycle..
As a mother myself, I know its difficult.
You seem to be riding the fence on the house, the business, and Heidi.
Make some decisions and stick to your guns.

This all seems like a very sad situation and alot of healing needs to take place.
You are only responsible for you.
The Serenity Prayer comes to mind for you.
"Grant me the wisdom to know the difference"
What you "can" change and what you "can't".

I would also like to add that my brother's birthday is 2 days before your son's.
He is no longer living but had some of the same issues as your son.

Telling him what to do never sat well with him... Much like a Scorpio, resentment comes about and they do the opposite...
Allowing him the room to come up with it himself with some ever so subtle influence and the "knowing" that you are there if he needs you (advice) was always the best way to keep peace, sanity, and a healthy atmosphere for change.
You have to cut the strings to ever get there. Have faith.. and work towards your vision of your future.
I wish you all the best.

posted June 08, 2007 06:09 PM         

LOL See how people see things differently. Email is such a flat medium and if you were sitting in the room with me you would find that I am not arguing with you at all. There are so many different facets to this situation. The fact that my son was a partner in the business, not to mention everything that came before that helped to make his and my situation what it is today.

You will be interested to know that today an x-husband of a step-daughter showed up on my doorstep. It was great talking with him, and I believe he will be staying over for a day or two. But what was even more interesting, after we caught up for an hour or so, he mentioned that I needed to set boundaries, and has offered to mediate. He then went out to this truck and brought in a book for me to look at called Boundaries. His statement was that the book has about every scenario you could think about in it.

Stargazer you are also correct, but it is to know how to do this, how to deal with this situation when someone is so angry that they could very well snap and do harm to you or themselves.

I am sorry to hear about your brother. You do what you can, but ultimately it is up to them. You hear the cries for help, and try in many ways to help. You sometimes feel as though they are just behaving badly and should be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Then you feel guilty for feeling that way.

posted June 08, 2007 06:31 PM         

LOL the two of us would go round and round. To me it seems that my initial post was asking for help, as I indeed not read about the Aries/Scorpio relationship until after Heidi had been here for awhile. What I was saying . . . was help. And yes I would say your message was an attack on me, and you continue to attack instead of saying these are the things that I have noticed in my relationship with the Aries people in my life. Keeping in mind that messages in the written word lack the body language, voice inflection, etc that you would get when dealing with a person face to face. I made what appeared to be a derogatory remark about a Scorpio, but isn't it possible? And I suppose here I could also say if the shoe fits wear it.

Since you are on this list you must also know that Linda Goodman wrote about the trials and tribulations of an Aries/Scorpio relationship. It means, depending on the other factors in their charts these two signs have to work a little harder at getting along.