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Author Topic:   R.I.P Chivalry
Xodian
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From: Canada
Registered: Dec 2006

posted January 10, 2007 07:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xodian     Edit/Delete Message
Old article, but has truth.

Changing gender roles might render old ways of dating useless.

Lacey Storer, Kansas State Collegian


When it comes to relationships, many girls love a guy who does romantic things for them. They want a guy who will open the door for them, leave them sweet notes and buy them flowers "just because." A guy who's thoughtful, respectful and downright chivalrous.

"Girls want a guy who does nice things for them, because it makes them feel cared for and loved," Sarah Bloch, junior in secondary education, said. "I think all girls want that, because it shows that they are respected and cared for."

The practice of chivalry began in the Middle Ages, when it was set as a moral code for the knights. Expected to be generous, loyal, courteous and gallant to the ladies, the knights set a standard for gentlemanly behavior that carried into modern times.

But as the role of men and women in relationships has become more equal, chivalry might become a thing of the past.

Tony Jurich, professor of marriage and family therapy, said as women have come to rely on men less over the years, the role of chivalry in relationships has been questioned.

"As we start to get into a more egalitarian society where physical brute strength from men is less needed, it comes into question if chivalry is needed," Jurich said. "Chivalry is not dead, it's just dormant."

Others agree chivalry hasn't died, but say it's now evolved to include women in the equation.

"I don't think it's necessarily dead," Jennifer Weisner, sophomore in business, said. "I think the difference is that now girls are starting to do things back to the guys. It hasn't ended, it's just kind of being altered."

Where men were once seen as the sole protector and provider in a relationship, women have taken a more equal role. While they still appreciate thoughtful gestures, women are willing to return the favor.

This kind of independence could have a negative effect of chivalry. Men who want to be romantic and chivalrous may be intimidated by a woman's independence and afraid of offending them.

Paul Morizzo, senior in marketing, said women wanting to be equal can send a discouraging message about being chivalrous.

"Women are fighting to be equal, so we treat them like equals," Morizzo said. "We treat them like we treat guys — nice, but not overly nice."

Gretchen Ekart, manager of Harry's Uptown, said the ratio of chivalrous to non-chivalrous men she sees in the restaurant is 50-50. She agreed that female independence could play a role in whether or not a guy is chivalrous.

"I think it depends on the guy," Ekart said. "There are some out there who are so worried about offending the lady that they don't do it, and there are some out there who are just romantics at heart."

Worries about scaring off a girl with too much chivalry also might prevent guys from performing such gestures.

"Sometimes it seems like girls are overwhelmed with the stuff," Jeff Curry, junior in marketing, said. "If you do too much, they're like, 'Hey, I don't need all this.'"

Weisner said when it comes to chivalry, there is a fine line between enough and too much.

"I look for a guy that's courteous and chivalrous, but not to the point where I feel I can't reciprocate, or it makes me feel inferior to him."

Independent women or not, some feel chivalry is simply no more.

"I think it died back in the day of the knights," Morizzo said. "I don't think it exists anymore."

Mike Simmons, freshman in open-option, said he agreed, and that chivalry is something rarely seen.

"For guys in general, it's dead," Simmons said. "You don't see guys doing common courtesy things like opening doors for girls — stuff like that."

Some think chivalry is still alive, but to a lesser extent than previous times.

"I think guys still do nice things," Bloch said, "but I think it's on a lower scale than it was before."

Bloch said the decrease in chivalrous men could be attributed to how they were raised and taught to treat women. Simmons agreed, saying that it's not that guys don't want to be chivalrous, they just don't know how.

"They were never taught correctly," Simmons said. "It just died throughout the generations."

Karen Medlin, owner of Westloop Floral, said she think men still have chivalrous intentions and sees this in the men who come into her store.

"I think more guys want to be chivalrous. I think guys still want to be the hero or the protector," Medlin said. "I see a lot more than I used to of just for-no-reason-at-all," Medlin said.

It's these gestures that can reassure a person of her lover's affection and can make a relationship stronger.

"All too often, what I find in relationships is that we don't have the courtesy of treating the other person with care," Jurich said. "We love each other in the grand things and we forget the little things, and sometime those little things are very important."

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BornUnderDioscuri
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From: Never Never Land
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posted January 11, 2007 12:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
"As we start to get into a more egalitarian society where physical brute strength from men is less needed, it comes into question if chivalry is needed," Jurich said. "Chivalry is not dead, it's just dormant."

LOL! Either way i miss it! Its wonderful i hung out with my friend today and he opened all doors for me and gave me a seat. In Ukraine its actually very important for guys to be chivalrous but women arent huge on getting ahead in life either.

quote:
Women are fighting to be equal, so we treat them like equals," Morizzo said. "We treat them like we treat guys — nice, but not overly nice."

Poooo thats what my bf says!!! Cant we gals have it both ways, we will be extra nice...pretty please

quote:
"I think it depends on the guy," Ekart said. "There are some out there who are so worried about offending the lady that they don't do it, and there are some out there who are just romantics at heart."

The latter are of course the best...

quote:
"I look for a guy that's courteous and chivalrous, but not to the point where I feel I can't reciprocate, or it makes me feel inferior to him."

I dont know how true is this. I mean somewhat but its still nice once in a while...

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Dulce Luna
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posted January 11, 2007 12:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message
Aww man,you're making my cancerian sun sad....I like chivalry


I can tell you now that its not dead back @ home (where I'm from). My mom's now the most independent woman I know and she still believes in chivalry. If he's not that way...then he's out the door. But then, her views get a little too "Old World" for me were she thinks there's nothing wrong with a guy buying you gifts everyday. The pseudo-psychologist in me does though...its called "insecurity".

My bf is a taste of the Old World for me sometimes....its refreshing.(He's Spanish too and he has venus in libra)

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted January 11, 2007 01:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
SAwww my bf's Cappy moon and Mars make him unchivalrous (i know its not a workd but its 2 am here lol give me a break) and his Aqua asc is what made him give the "chivalry died with women's rights speech" ughh where is my trusty slipper now. I know ill show him this article hes gona looveeee it! UGH *rolls eyes* everyone should be chivalrous! Chivalrous guys are by far the BEST! Alright i think i should go sleep because i have no clue wat im saying anymore and ill prolly regret it in the morning lol. Nighty night all

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Dulce Luna
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posted January 11, 2007 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message
Its alright, I'll give you a break. My gosh , my guy has an Aqua Asc too (although, not sure which degree). He can be a little out there sometimes. When I first met him, he was not really that polite to me.....he wouldn't even look at me which should've made it obvious that he liked me. I mean, whenever he tried to make conversation with me, it seemed really awkward and he was practically convulsing when he did it. (does not stop figgeting) The impolitness came in where he would be a bit blunt...probably without even meaning it. (sag mercury) It was cute

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted January 11, 2007 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
LOL mine in order to flirt with me threw salt packets at me...and then paper...and then napkins...lucky im a Gemini and thats how i flirt too lol. Silly Aqua risings. Oh man mine was blunt too. I knew he liked vampires so i came in dressed as one for halloween and he was like THATS A VAMPIRE? Yea right wat crap, ur just wearing black and too much makeup...and wats with the rose pin, vampires dont do roses, dont u know that?
Me: ughhhhh!!!!!
Actually i didnt even know he liked me at
first.

Though i showed him i was a way better vampire this year! LOLOLOL

^^ My friend the Black Dhalia and I lol, how moon in Scorpio is that? Shes a Cancer Taurus Scorpio ASC, coolest chick

*edit* pics deleted

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sue g
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posted January 11, 2007 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sue g     Edit/Delete Message

"Chivalry," 1885
by Sir Frank Dicksee


When it was time for
a knight in shining armor
to rescue a
beautiful damsel in distress,
of course,
the damsel had red hair.

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Bluemoon
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posted January 11, 2007 03:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluemoon     Edit/Delete Message

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Dulce Luna
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posted January 11, 2007 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
LOL mine in order to flirt with me threw salt packets at me...and then paper...and then napkins...lucky im a Gemini and thats how i flirt too lol. Silly Aqua risings


Awwww, that sounds like mine too. Doing mischevious things to get my attention. Luckily I have a gemini venus so I totally digged it.

Oh, and you made an Awesome Vampire.....nice wig!

(My hair is now streaked that color )

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted January 11, 2007 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
Hehe yea the Gemini-ness totally loves it. Thank you so much and that would be an awesome color to get streaks in but my hair is blonde it wouldnt match as much. I always wanted a haircut like that but my hair will never stay in that position.

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted January 11, 2007 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
I love the pics Sue and Blue Moon awesome kitty one's so cute

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Xodian
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posted January 11, 2007 11:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xodian     Edit/Delete Message
Lol! I really find it interesting in how answering a question can lead to a whole new interesting discussion (thank BUD for bringing up the topic actually.)

IMHO, Chivilry isn't common anymore for a very key reason as the article pointed out: Women just don't see the need for men dawting out infront of them and thinking of them as helpless creatures (though that may not be the point of chivilry anymore, its precieved that way.) I more blame the lack of it on preception rather than fear. People just classify it as an old view and thus connect it with the understandings and dogma of the middle ages (i.e. women were nothing but birth machines, etc.) which they shouldn't BTW.

And here is something people will find interesting ; The act of chivilry was by no means European in origin. It was actually "borrowed" from Middle Eastern Warriors. Infact you have to read some of the Middle Eastern poems of the time; It clearly defines a woman in such a beautiful way.

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted January 12, 2007 12:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
The act of chivilry was by no means European in origin. It was actually "borrowed" from Middle Eastern Warriors. Infact you have to read some of the Middle Eastern poems of the time; It clearly defines a woman in such a beautiful way.

Ha! I knew that in my heart of hearts! Especially when you read Sultan Suleyman's letters to his wife they are sooooo amazing, and remember what Shah Jahan did for his wife!! This is indeed an awesome topic, people do seem to lump concepts to their times a bit too much. We should all work to bring chivalry back ( mostly i say that because I adore the old ways and my friends joke i was born in the wrong time lol.)

~Yours trully, Countess BUD ~

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Dulce Luna
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posted January 12, 2007 12:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Lol! I really find it interesting in how answering a question can lead to a whole new interesting discussion

Ooops! Sorry about that.


quote:
The act of chivilry was by no means European in origin. It was actually "borrowed" from Middle Eastern Warriors. Infact you have to read some of the Middle Eastern poems of the time; It clearly defines a woman in such a beautiful way.

And I thought we borrowed from the Portuguese . Perhaps we really "borrowed" from the Sultans that came before them....veddy interesting.

For real though, for my Lit class last semester we had to read "The Cantebury Tales" from the Middle Ages which is like a mockery to all things Midieval.One of the stories in there is like a complete satire of chivalry. If yah read the story you'd know why.Its like a bar room tale....that I still found completely hilarious.

Nevertheless, viva o chivalry!

quote:
Thank you so much and that would be an awesome color to get streaks in but my hair is blonde it wouldnt match as much

At first I wasn't impressed with mine to tell the truth...but everyone else likes them...so I do too.

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted January 12, 2007 01:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
I read the Cantebury Tales, a fascinating work, though there was a part that upset me but it is Medieval europe what can one expect. I actually had "Amor vincit omnia" as my away message for God knows how long lol. So cheesy of me! But i know what you mean i got this outfit once and didnt really like it but everyone kept telling me how great it is so it kinda grew on me.

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Dulce Luna
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posted January 12, 2007 01:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah, the book is pretty good. Like the way he makes each story fit the personality of the character telling it. Btw, the tale I was talking of is The Miller's tale.

I get what you mean though, the book is a bit dissapointing because these are all supposedly pious people who were really just wolves in sheepskins. There were only three good characters in the book which all turned out to be what writers call "stereotypical". (Knight, parson, and plowman)

Me and my sister were just talking about this book...she has to read it right now too.

off to bed now...exhausted

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BornUnderDioscuri
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posted January 12, 2007 10:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BornUnderDioscuri     Edit/Delete Message
Oh how cool, i dont remember everything it was actually 4 years ago lol but the nun or w/e her title was totally annoyed me.

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