posted March 14, 2007 10:11 AM            

"When we blame, we give away our power."

-- Greg Anderson

ALL of our personal physical, psychological, and social problems arise from a lack of alignment between the body, emotions, mind and the soul. As a result, we are never victims of outside forces.

The soul challenges us to grow with problems, illnesses and/or injuries. These painful events trigger our subconscious blocks. This gives us the opportunity to SEE the blocks and release them.

"People who consider themselves victims of their circumstances will always remain victims unless they develop a greater vision for their lives."

-- Stedman Graham

"No matter how frustrated you may feel, there is Always a way out. In every situation that arises, we choose to be powerful or powerless. It may not always feel like it, but it is a choice. And there are consequences for these choices in terms of the results we get, and the subsequent increase or decrease in our power and influence. If we choose powerlessness, it is often because we doubt there is any other option."

-- Blaine Lee

posted March 14, 2007 10:32 AM              

Reminds me of Linda message - Never Complain - complaining takes you away from the things you want. How true!

posted March 14, 2007 11:58 AM              

I also wonder if children who are sexually and physically abused by their parents or others know that they are not victims and have other options.

Would any of us tell these people that they are "never victims" and that they just need to apply the power of positive thinking to their situations?

This might apply to those of us in the world who are lucky enough to not be caught in situations that are beyond our control but frankly, it does not apply to millions of people in the world who don't have the option of applying positive thinking to their situations.

Sometimes the power of positive thinking can be taken to the extreme. To say that people are "never victims" is, IMHO, one of those times.

posted March 14, 2007 01:53 PM            

Yes,
at times,
we can choose to take control of certain things,
but this choice cannot come from nothing -
it must be triggered,
either by great discomfort,
or great inspiration;
such as the kind Solane Star is providing us right now.

In the words of Homer Simpson,
"I'm going to do what Bart should have told me to do a long time ago!"

If we really believed in free will,
we would never try to inspire or influence
each other in any way.
We secretly know that some people's wills are so weak
they cannot even inspire themselves,
while some people's wills are so strong
they can inspire themselves and many others as well.
It is all connected.
So,
when you tell people to take responsibility for themselves,
remember,
you are already taking responsibility for them.

It's sad, but,
many people only embrace the concept of free will
because they don't want to feel responsible for others.
They want to dismiss the problems of others,
and say, "They are fine,
its their responsibility, not mine,
and they can handle it,"
and move on with their self-centered lives.

The truth is that
a mind/body/soul which is significantly out of balance,
is in no position to make and carry out healthy choices.
As difficult as that is to accept, it remains self-evident.

"One love,
We get to share it...
We get to
Carry each other
Carry each other"

posted March 14, 2007 02:08 PM            

Sometimes in our lives,
we all have pain, we all have sorrow
But if are wise,
we know that there's always tomorrow.

Lean on me, when you're not strong,
And I'll be your friend, I'll help you carry on,
For it won't be long,
till I'm gonna need somebody to lean on

Please swallow your pride,
if I have faith you need to borrow,
For no one can fill those of your needs
that you won't let show

You just call on me brother when you need a hand
We all need somebody to lean on
I just might have a problem that you'll understand
We all need somebody to lean on

Lean on me, when you're not strong
And I'll be your friend, I'll help you carry on
For it won't be long,
till I'm gonna need somebody to lean on

You just call on me brother when you need a hand
We all need somebody to lean on
I just might have a problem that you'll understand
We all need somebody to lean on

posted March 14, 2007 02:09 PM            

We are free.

You sound like you are following the philosophy of determinism, that everything in some/way/shape/form is predetermined by some natural laws or deity. It is not so. If we are not free, than I shall simply lay down and die, for if I do, it was predetermined anyway. In fact, we should all go lay down and die, because in essence we are just watching a movie, not living a life. If we have no choices to make, what is the point of living?

Hobbes claims that we could have made a different decision in the past, if we DECIDED to. Just because we can't go back and see the other option doesnt' mean we couldn't have made the other decision. In fact, perhaps the other decision WAS made, and that reality is spiralling in one of infinite alternative timelines?

posted March 14, 2007 02:12 PM              

quote:

---

So, remember,
when you tell someone to take responsibility for themself,
you are already taking responsibility for them.

It's sad, but,
many people only embrace the concept of free will
because they don't want to feel responsible for others.
They want to dismiss the problems of others,
and say, "They are fine,
its their responsibility, not mine,
and they can handle it,"
and move on with their self-centered lives.

The truth is that
a mind/body/soul which is significantly out of balance,
is in no position to make and carry out healthy choices.
As difficult as that is to accept, it remains self-evident.

---

posted March 14, 2007 02:22 PM              

The options and choices do lie within our means as free souls but we are sometimes limited by circumstances, knowledge etc. in determining which choices and options we have at any given time and any given circumstance.

Just how free we actually are is questionable I guess. Jesus said, "whatever a man is overcome by to that he is a slave." Be it our passions, ego or whatever often interferes in our capacity to be totally free and make the right choices or see all of our options.

posted March 14, 2007 03:11 PM            

I do not subscribe to anyone's thinking but my own. Deteminism does correspond with my understanding, and I am not a Determinist because it appears likely, but, because it is scientifically and logically demonstrable.

If you have the power to reason, use it now, and you will see that free will is utterly ridiculous and absurd (to say nothing of the disasterous effects it has upon human relations).

Everything that exists has a reason for being, and since every reason is also a thing that exists, every reason also has a reason for being. So, from this we may deduce that, if you choose not to lay down and die, it is because you have a reason for doing so. You could not choose otherwise, because this reason is itself necessarily determined by an antecedent reason, or cause. If you don't believe me, there is one way to prove your point: lie down and die right now. "I don't feel like it right now," you say, deeply assured that you could do it if you chose to, and you could choose to if you wanted to, and you could want to if...... Oh, right.

See, everything that exists, exists as itself only by virtue of its relation to other things. You are indeed determined by something, otherwise, you would be nothing. That which you are has boundaries, and those boundaries are what you call yourself. Otherwise, you would be unformed, nebulous, everything and nothing, both at once.

Do you really think that if you transcend your immediate environment it suggests free will? All it suggests is that there is an influence working upon you which is greater than your immediate environment! Look to the larger environment, the cosmos. Now you think, if you transcend some aspect of your chart, it suggests free will. But isn't it possible that you are influenced by some greater influence in your chart, to transcend some lesser influence in your chart? Not only is it possible, it has the benefit of not being utterly absurd and devoid of reason. Can you not see the potential for transcendence in your chart? Perhaps it is not there. Perhaps you need to draw a bigger chart, taking into account the fact that the planets in our galaxy (our immediate environment) are not the only planets in the universe, and our Sun is not the only Sun.

Alas, you cannot see beyond our galaxy, and astrology has not progressed so far. But do not flatter yourself that, if you have transcended our present scope of astrological influences, you have transcended the universe. That would be an error.

People who argue for free will always point to the influences they have overcome, as if this proves something. They never look any further or deeper. They never ask the poignant question, "What greater influence was acting upon me, to push me to overcome those lesser influences?" You will find there is always a greater influence. Always, something is pushing you, and, if it was not, you surely would lay down and die.

posted March 14, 2007 03:21 PM            

I almost feel like you are implying some sort of cosmic or divine influence. You make very valid points, but just because I was caused by something, doesn't mean that everything I do is a product of that cause. It seems to me that you are basing your argument on that fact that all that exists must spring from a moment in the past. But what if that is merely an illusion of the mind, and every moment is created anew?

If I were to accept your claim, and that even this conversation is a product of conflation of previous events, I would find it impossible to keep on living. I can't lay down and die right now, you're right, there are limits on free will, and yes there may be fate and destiny, but even minor choices can have a great effect on future causaliy, and we do have a choice.

posted March 14, 2007 03:34 PM            

In any case, it is a waste of time to speculate on the possible causes. If we could not uncover them, it would not prove that your action was caused by nothing. All it would prove is our own short-sightedness. Everything is caused by something. Your choice may cause you to flick your ear, but your choice is caused by something. And even if it was not caused by anything (an absurd proposition, but bear with me), would that be "freedom"? Doing things for no reason? No, it wouldnt.

You are a spectator. Your participation in life is an optical illusion of consciousness. Try not to participate, I dare you. Try to be still and observe the world. You cannot. You are not independent of it. You are caught in the stream. Only when you evolve to the point of being able to concentrate on being utterly still and objective, will you begin to transcend the universal flow. But this "trancedence" is like the transcendence of a twig which is carried downriver, and finally merges with the sea. It happens in the river's time, not in the twig's.

If you were free, you would choose to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. But you are not free. Your choices are limited, and, the closer you look, the more you see how limited they are, until, ultimately, there is only one choice you can make.

Look. The universe is constantly narrowing your sphere of choices. It narrows down to two choices, then it narrows down to one. You say, "That's dumb, I can choose to drink apple or orange juice right now. There is no reason why I cannot choose apple juice. There is no reason why I cannot choose orange juice." But, ultimately, you will choose one or the other, and you will have a reason. You'll say, "It was my choice. I craved apple juice, so I chose apple juice." But you did not choose to crave apple juice. Or maybe you think you are really clever, so you are going to choose both! But which do you drink first? Oh, but you are a clever one, so maybe you choose to mix them together, just to prove me wrong. But I am laughing because you have not chosen freely; rather, I have caused you to choose to drink apple/orange juice (which you hate!), and you have only proven yourself an imbecile. But, maybe you are not that kind of imbecile. Maybe you say, "To hell with you, I am free, I dont have to drink any juice!" Nevertheless, your choice not to drink is determined by your desire not to submit to the choice; you are still forced to choose (in this case, you chose "none of the above").

hsc

posted March 14, 2007 03:42 PM            

You make a good argument. However, choosing to be omnipotent is a bit preposterous, because I am still narrowed by a certain amount of options. To imply free will is not to imply infinite options, it simply ipmlies options within a yes, limited, framework.

You can always interject a causality after the fact, making a decision appear that it was the result of a certain influence, but you can never fully prove that it was a deterministic event, or a logical free choice.

posted March 14, 2007 04:07 PM            

As you have just begun to realize, the only way to negate this reasoning is to negate matter, time, and the finite world. You must imagine that this moment is full of infinite potential. You must align yourself with that which is not yourself; with that which is infinite; with God. Perhaps you are ready to do this now; to transcend matter, time, mind, emotion, the universe, the self. Have you had the power all along? Could Dorothy have clicked her ruby slippers all along? This is the question of free will. What needs to happen, in order for Dorothy to click her ruby slippers and say, "There's no place like home..."? The person who believes in free will say, "She was wearing the slippers the whole time, and she has vocal chords, so, she could have chosen to click them and say the words at any time." But the person who reasons looks more closely and say, "She had the slippers, she had the vocal chords, but she didnt have the power because she didnt have the knowledge; not until the wizard told her to click her slippers together, and say these exact words, did she discover her power."

Sit in meditation for 5 hours every day, for the next 10 years, and maybe, just maybe, you will transcend yourself enough to merge with the infinite, and then all power will be yours.

But, remember, the "free will" possessed by Masters is not the kind that chooses to manipulate the universe to its own vision. On the contrary, "will", by definition, is not free. A Master does not have a will, in the sense that we understand it. Masters are free because they are free of will. They have merged with the one will; God's. And because there is no other will, and nothing for it to oppose, it is free. The Master does not manipulate the universe, the Master comes into accordance with the universe. Whatever happens in the universe is the will of the Master, because it is God's will, and the Masters knows, "Not my will, but thy will be done." The Master accepts all things as chosen by God, and knows that all is well in the Shepherd's care.

Is all well?
Or is all well only when the Master thinks it?
That is the paradox of the will.
We will things because we want to change them.
We will things because we think "all is not well".
Only when we cease to will
can the thought enter that all is well.
And only when we lose all hope of changing things
can we cease to will.
This is why the great avatars of all time
have told us,
"It is hopeless. It is lost."
Only when it is lost
can you see that it has been here all along.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, -
the poor in will, -
for they shall see God.
Only when you renounce your limited personal will
can you see and embrace God's will for you.

This is the age old argument,
and it is not between men and men,
but men and God;
the one vociferous, the other silent.

posted March 14, 2007 06:06 PM            

You've assumed that the physical world is real. I suppose you can invoke cogito ergo sum, or some other principle, but ultimately you cannot prove that the world is real, one simply has to accept that it exists because it exists.

You are right in your argument about Dorothy, but it does not deny free will. Just because one does not have knowledge of something, does not mean that one cannot still perform it, randomly, intuitively. Moreover, people can perform an act that is contrary to all expectations, even their own, bucking all causailities. Imagine a woman that is being raped, being coerced by an agressor, this woman lacks free will not because of a past cause, but because her free will is being subjugated by the assailant. Thus, lack of free will can be a result of not only previous causalities, but other forces as well. Therefore free will is not completely deterministic (this is David Hume's argument btw). This argument does not prove that there is free will, it simply shows that lack of free will is not always caused by previous events.

The knowledge of a god or some deity is as Kant would say, a priori, in that there is no way to emprically prove the existence of god. When we start our whole argument on a priori we can make a lot of amazing claims as a result, but they aren't necessarily true.

posted March 14, 2007 08:45 PM            

I appreciate getting a chance to discuss this with you.

My argument is based on the "assumption" that all things are connected. This is the assumption at the root of all operations of logic. If you accept that there is any sense to anything, you have already accepted this fundamental proposition. All reason is based on it, so, you cannot make a reasonable argument against it. I call it an assumption only because it is, after all, based on inductive logic. It says, "We have observed this to be the case in every single particular instance we have knowledge of - therefor, we induce that it is a general law." A leap, I'll grant you, but no more of a leap than the one we make when we jump from a diving board and expect the water in the pool not to vanish on our way down.

You are right in saying that my argument depends upon the reality of the universe. But then, so does everything you do in the course of your day. You pick up your toothbrush because you accept the proposition that it will not dematerialize in your hand. I do not have to invoke Descartes', or anyone else's, abstract arguments. I merely have to point out to you the fact that you cannot get out of bed without assuming that which my argument takes as its starting and end point.

While, on some sub-quantum level, we may or may not in fact be floating in a slough of absolute chaos, it has little or no bearing on our lives in the world. If we are to choose between assuming the existence of free will, and assuming there is order in the universe, I suggest there is at least reason to accept the latter. The concept of free will is not even articulable in rational terms. It falls apart when you merely look at it.

I think the argument about Dorothy refutes free will quite well. What you are suggesting is that Dorothy might randomly have clicked her heels together three times while saying the words, "There is no place like home,". The chances of this happening are so miniscule, it hardly deserves consideration, but, I can dismiss it for an even better reason than that. If Dorothy performs some random action, without conscious intent, that action can hardly be called "free". It is random. Let's say she does it, and it gets her home. She is still no more responsible for that action getting her home, than she would be if she had said "rome", instead of "home", and ended up in the middle of the Colosseum. But, lets say Dorothy happens to be imbued with a psychic awareness which permits her to know how to get home without being told. That is still a quality put into her by God (or the universe, if you prefer). If she had not been born with that quality already in her, or acquired it at some other point, she never could have utilized it. The messages may be floating through the ether, but, if she has not the receptivity to pick up on them, it is exactly the same as if she had been born deaf, and unable to hear the wizard when he told her how to get home. She is not responsible for her constitution. And since her constitution is the dominant factor in all her perceptions and decisions, it follows that she is not a free agent. If you program a computer, all its subsequent actions will be determined by its initial programming and the external input it passively receives. We are just complex, self-aware computers. We perform our given functions, and, because we do it subjectively, we appear to be the programmers. We are not.

I am not familiar with the western philosophical cannon. I'm almost entirely self-educated, and the Stoics and Neo-Platonists are as far as I got, with the exception of Montaigne, Emerson, Schopenhauer, and Nietzsche. I think western philosophy is, for the most part, mental masterbation. I have not cared to enter into western philsophy's dialectical hell. The argument you mention is clearly false. For one thing, you do not have to go back very far to find an antecedent cause. The rapist began pinning her arms back BEFORE she became unable to free herself, no? So, as far as I can tell, and unless I am missing something, the argument is refuted as simply as that.* Why intelligent men would miss something as obvious as this is a mystery to me, but I have learned, in the immortal words of that kid from "American Beauty", to "never underestimate the power of denial". I am almost certain these men had ulterior motives which clouded their otherwise penetrating vision.

When I speak of God, I am speaking "a posteriori" (no, not out of my posterior, lol), which is to say that I do not proceed from a proposition, but from experience. Most people have an idea of God which they have formed independently of experience, or which they have slavishly accepted from the mouths of others. My method is a little different. I first look out upon the world, and, from there, I say, "God did this". Why do I say "God did this"? Because it is the world. Understand, I am not postulating the existence of some personal deity, external to creation. I am merely giving a name (one which inpires reverence) to that noblest of ideas within which all my experiences, and all the experiences of others, are contained without contradiction. I then proceed to interpret "God" in accordance with my own perceived understanding of the world. I do not dismiss and re-interpret my perceptions of the world based on any pre-conceived idea of God. So you see, none of my arguments are dependent upon my idea of God. Rather, my idea of God is dependent upon my arguments.

quote:

---

Needless to say I won't be meditating 5 hours a day any time soon, I shall continue to be a slave to my ego, desires, and addictions, what about you?

---

Same here, friend.

complacent ergo complicit,
HSC

* If you want to go back further, you can take note of the fact that she was born without the physiological potential of, and/or the psychological inclination to become, a body-builder or kung-fu master, capable of freeing herself from such an attacker.

posted March 16, 2007 01:45 AM              

I don't think that it is a matter of not understanding Star's post.

Nothing wrong with the message at all. It is just that it does not apply to a large percentage of the world population who find themselves in situations of real victimization in which they have no options. It is easier for some folks to choose not to see themselves as victims than it for those folks who truly are victims of cirmcumstances beyond their control.

We do not have to "just accept" what we know not to be true or what we know cannot be applied in all circumstances.

posted March 16, 2007 04:28 AM              

I do understand people are suffering. These people have been wronged, it’s a fact. But if victim keeps running through their mind, it’s only going to harm and stifle them. If i was abused as a child, and every morning I’d wake feeling sorry for myself...that can do sooo much harm. I will be living the incident day in day out. Like a prisoner of my past.

I love the meaning of the original post because it’s telling us there is a way out – of our mind anyway.

The Darfur thing is totally different. These people are living in pain. It’s not in the past, it’s now. They’re suffering so much already, do they really need to feel sorry for them selves and add more pain.

If i were in their shoes, i’d be crying in a corner. Saying that I’m a victim, and adding to my pain. It is certainly easier said than done, and I certainly couldn't be strong enough to escape my pain - but the fact that there is a light, helps so much...it's inspirering. Those great peopl in History who got up, and made things change - they must have stopped feeling sorry for themselves and did something. I assume, not sure... pls correct me if I'm talking crap.

And often, when we stop bullying ourselves things start to change. You’d be surprised how much changes when we stop this negative mentality.

posted March 16, 2007 11:23 AM            

Thanks for you guys input on such heart felt matters!!!

I just see this thread as a opening up to conscious awakening and becoming more consciously aware of such issues and how we can heal ourselves and our ways of thinking about ourselves and the world in general.

By becoming more self aware of those energy thoughts that we project out, that we put out and also recieve from others. It's not until then can one become total involved or really care for others and the imbalance and injustice that goes on every day.

I love the input on this thread, it has really got me thinking about what kind of vibes and energy that I send out there to others and how that may effect the ripple in the big ocean of life.

You guys are great, thanks for your input!!!

I come from a really abusive background of teacher's and it has made Me the Lady that I Am today and Now that I have learned to look at it all with different eyes, it has freed me from so much pain and blame of others mistakes in the past, it has helped so to see past my own nose!!!

Now I'm beginning to see my place in all this and how I can help others to share this awareness.

I really do feel it starts with man's thoughts, Thoughts are things and I can change My Mind, thats Free Will to Me.

" My Mind Matters " Matter is Fourm, you know!!!!

It does Matter what we all think about!!!!!

You want Passion, you give Passion!!!!

You want Joy, You give Joy!!!!

You want Caring, You Care!!!

On and On!!!! For Infinity!!!!!

Your right Mirandee, we need to learn how to teach and share the tools of knowledge and wisdom, so we can all want the same for one other. We have to teach peace to the kids so that they to can know Balance also.

People are doing this as we speak here and it is making a difference, as slow as it may seem sometimes, but its happening!!!

Thanks Guys!!!!

Won't that be a nice place to live and come from!!!

I'm keeping EARTH in Mind!!!!

Still learning and healing self, so that this can be a better place, that we all live in!!!

Thats my ripple!!!!

Thanks Guys!!!!!

posted March 17, 2007 07:21 AM              

There's a guy who has been working in this labor hall for 10 yrs and he comes in every day being rude, and expecting to be sent on the best jobs. He sits out there telling all the other African-American men that I'm a prejudice white c**t and that they won't get sent out because I don't think they are smart, or capable, or whatever else he comes up with.

I've tried everything from arguing and giving the same attitude back to ignoring him. Nothing works. And God help me if I don't happen to send him out to work! He goes straight to my boss throwing that racial card down every single time!

My boss says there is nothing I can do about it. They won't make him stop or tell him to go elsewhere. In a meeting the other day, they told me (not in so many words) to just bend over and grab my ankles.

Between that and having bought a piece of crap for a vehicle I'm not in the best of moods this week.

I just try to keep repeating to myself "I am not a victim. I am not a victim! I am not a victim!!"

posted March 17, 2007 08:01 AM            

People who teach affirmation work will tell you that the unconscious mind cannot process a negative. It thinks in pictures, so, when you say "not a victim", your mind cannot picture the absence of a victim; instead, it pictures the thing you are thinking about: "a victim". Repeating to yourself "I am not a victim..." is the last thing you want to do. Rather, picture in your mind your ideal image of yourself, as strong, confident, assertive, capable, independent, etc., and think things like, "I am a powerful person," "I am champion," "I am a gorgeous genius," and so on.