posted September 20, 2007 12:19 AM         

When I first discovered this, I was 17. It was the most devastating thing... All my confidence, everything, shot. I became obsessed - I wanted to disprove it so, so badly... But the more I researched and applied my own personal experience, the more I realized I couldn't. For 4 years now, I've read everything I could find on this subject. It's consumed literally thousands of hours of my personal life. Please don't take this as arrogance on my part, because that's truly not where I'm coming from, but every argument you and Xodian and Dulce Luna are presenting, I have read reams of material on, I have gone over dozens of times, on the Internet and in print and with doctors I've talked to. Nothing here is new to me.

I'm not closed-minded so much as I'm just really informed. Again, not arrogance. I hate this issue. But it's been a defining force in my life, and nothing anyone has presented so far is new to me.

So, if you're looking for a debate on this, I'm probably the wrong person to talk to. But I have a huge amount of information ready to go, and I'm happy to share it.

posted September 20, 2007 12:25 AM         

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This is from a while ago but here goes anyways...

Circumcision may offer Africa AIDS hope:Procedure linked to much lower rate of new HIV infections

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And again, why not just condoms? Why the surgery, which is proven to remove tens of thousands of nerve endings, lead to keratinization of the penis, etc.?

posted September 20, 2007 12:26 AM         

All one can do is read all the data, weigh the pros and cons, and decide for themselves.

posted September 20, 2007 12:29 AM         

Would you be interested in hearing people who have never been raped offer their opinions on how rape isn't that bad? What if you can prove medically that it's harmful?

The analogy may offend you at first, but consider - circumcision is performed without consent on millions of men, many of whom later resent it. It has medically proven harmful effects. And society seems, by and large, to think it's not such a huge issue. I've had probably hundreds of women, who have no idea where I'm coming from on this, tell me that I'm making a big deal out of nothing. Should I just accept their opinions as equally valid as my personal experience and knowledge?

posted September 20, 2007 12:33 AM         

Because people don't wear them consistently. They're expensive in some countries and difficult to obtain? Their religion might prevent it...

And often, a guy just wants to feel the full effect, and in the heat of the moment is willing to take the risk.

I mean, come on, seems like you live in this fantasy land where everyone does "the right thing". If that were the case, AIDS would have been nearly eradicated already. If that were the case, men would clean their foreskins, and their toilets, and whatever else women complain about they don't clean. LOL

posted September 20, 2007 12:35 AM         

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Should I just accept their opinions as equally valid as my personal experience and knowledge?

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No, but you should respect that they have a right to their opinion, regardless of how shocking to you that may be, and that you don't have a right to shove your differing opinion down their throat.

posted September 20, 2007 12:37 AM         

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Problem is that for all the point Xodian can bring up, you can refute, and all the points you bring up, Xodian (or anyone for that matter) can go online and find refutations from equally legitimate sources.

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If that's true, than I'd challenge you to find me one valid refutation for the fact that we don't cut off infant girls' breats without their consent to avoid breast cancer, but penile cancer is used as an excuse for circumcision.

Find me a valid refutation of the point that girls are more likely by far to get urinary tract infections, but we treat them with antibiotics and not surgery.

Find me ONE legitimate, medical source that says that the foreskin is just a superfluous flap of skin.

You won't be able to. You can find religious sources touting circumcision as a sacrifice mandated by god, you can find medical sources that will offer various "pros and cons" and ultimately tell you it's the parent's choice (and again, why should the parent's dictate the man's future sex life?), but you can't find a valid source to dispute the information I'm presenting. Do you think I haven't tried?

There are a lot of sources out there offering claims that have been long debunked by the AMA and the AAP. They're offering contraindicated information!

Again, I offer these quotes from highly respected pediatricians:

quote:

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In all of biology, the nonengineered individual is the strongest. All
of his parts are there for an excellent purpose.

- Ronald Poland, MD (American Academy of Pediatrics Task Force
Committee on Circumcision)

We ... cannot allow females or any group of patients to be
mutilated. I'm afraid that this is even more basic than religion.

- John C. Nelson, MD, AMA Trustee
(in American Medical News, Vol 39,
no. 40, October, 1996)

Whatever is done to stop the terrible practice of
circumcision will be of tremendous importance. There
is no rational medical reason to support it. It is high time
that such a barbaric practice comes to an end.

-Frederick Leboyer, M.D., author, "Birth
Without Violence"

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posted September 20, 2007 12:39 AM         

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And again, why not just condoms? Why the surgery, which is proven to remove tens of thousands of nerve endings, lead to keratinization of the penis, etc.?

I mean, if you're an adult man and you want this done, more power to you. But don't force it on babies when there are other, better solutions so readily available.

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Again, its not being forced...it is up to the parents to decide. That was just an article to show the positive side of circumcision.

posted September 20, 2007 12:44 AM         

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No, but you should respect that they have a right to their opinion, regardless of how shocking to you that may be, and that you don't have a right to shove your differing opinion down their throat.

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Hm, well I hope you're never raped, but I think you might change your mind if you were. You cannot know what it's like to have ignorant, misinformed people shove their opinions down your throat, tell you to shut up and sit down, tell you that your pain is meaningless.

Opinions are fine, as long as they don't hurt anyone. But when ignorance masquerading as 'individual truth' or 'viewpoint' threatens to violate the rights of helpless children, I'm going to do my best to speak up, and stepping on a few toes isn't going to be my primary concern.

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I mean, come on, seems like you live in this fantasy land where everyone does "the right thing".

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Let me assure you that I do not live in a world like that.

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Seriously, the only guy I've ever known with a foreskin who was super conscientious about cleanliness was a Virgo...and non-poorly aspected Virgos are usually very clean about everything...

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Want to talk about offensive! That attitude really galls me - 'men can't take care of themselves, so we better get them 'fixed' so they don't offend us.'

Maybe give that a little consideration, huh? Women get a 'feminine hygiene' industry with spunky ads and frilly pink packaging, men get a razor to their genitals at birth. How about this for an 'opinion' - mind your own business! A man's body isn't for you to carve up however you see fit!

The UN can and does supply condoms to much of the 3rd world. If a man wants to get himself cut, that's fine, whatever. But don't inflict it on babies - their future sex life is no one's business but theirs.

posted September 20, 2007 12:48 AM         

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shove their opinions down your throat, tell you to shut up and sit down, tell you that your pain is meaningless.

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Nobody here has "shoved" anything down your throat. Unless someone saying they disagree is "shoving".

Really, read back through here and look at who is shoving what.

I don't see how your rape comparison is apples to apples, I was with ya until you tried to totally equate the two.

Rape is illegal in our country. When circumcision is illegal, and generally accepted as a bad thing with absolutely no redeeming qualities (unless you can give me the redeeming qualities to having been raped), get back to me equating the two.

posted September 20, 2007 12:50 AM         

You can't debate with people that have an agenda.

You have an agenda.

I like to debate. And people like you make it impossible because you don't want to debate, you don't want to hear people's ideas and opinions, you just want to push an anti-circumcision agenda. And that's fine, except when it ruins debate.

posted September 20, 2007 12:53 AM         

Current Information on Paul M. Fleiss
Department: Division of General Pediatrics
Specialty: General Pediatrics
Address: 1824 N. Hillhurst Ave.Los Angeles, CA 90027
Phone: (323) 664-1977
Fax: (323) 664-0870
Certification: Pediatrics, American Board of Pediatrics
Medical School: University of California, Irvine
Residency: California Medical Center/Los Angeles, Pediatrics; LAC/USC Medical Center/Pediatrics, Pediatrics; Tucson Medical Center, Rotating Internship
Physician Type: Community

Paul Murray Fleiss M.D.
was born on the 8th of September in 1933 is a pediatrician at the Children's Hospital Los Angeles, and an anti-circumcision activist.

He earned his B.S. in pharmacy from Wayne State University, his M.D. from the University of California, Irvine, and his M.P.H. from the University of California, Los Angeles. He is the author of several articles and numerous letters published in medical journals. Fleiss was also convicted of money laundering in connection with his daughter Heidi Fleiss's activities in running a prostitution ring. He was sentenced to one day in prison, three years of probation and 625 hours of community service.

Fleiss appeared in an episode of Penn & Teller: ******** ! on circumcision in 2005.

In 2006, the California State Medical Board opened proceedings against Fleiss, accusing him of gross negligence in his care of several patients, including the daughter of AIDS dissident Christine Maggiore.

important references;
The State Medical Board accuses Dr. Paul Fleiss of gross negligence.
published in the Los Angeles Times on September 16, 2006;By Charles Ornstein
^ Complaint from the Division of Medical Quality, Medical Board of California. Accessed September 14, 2007. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0281576/

guess you already know all this stuff though, huh?

GREAT resources buddy, lol!

-kyle

posted September 20, 2007 12:54 AM         

I think it's a matter that they market personal hygiene products to women...because we buy them.

posted September 20, 2007 12:54 AM         

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Rape is illegal in our country. When circumcision is illegal, and generally accepted as a bad thing with absolutely no redeeming qualities (unless you can give me the redeeming qualities to having been raped), get back to me equating the two.

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Public opinion ain't the decider of truth, Isis.

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You have an agenda.

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My agenda is human rights. I don't debate rape. I don't debate child molestation. I don't debate involuntary genital mutilation. I learn the facts, and I do my best not to hurt anyone.

I know this well enough to know that debate is pointless. Your opinion or my opinion means nothing to the millions of babies each year who are mutilated. I'm spreading facts, that's all.

posted September 20, 2007 12:58 AM         

Science and history give not a sh*t who present them, they just are. Don't like that resource? Take a look at the several hundred-thousand more.

And if you could, reformat your links to two separate lines, so as not to break the page-margin?

posted September 20, 2007 01:01 AM         

quote:

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I like to debate. And people like you make it impossible because you don't want to debate, you don't want to hear people's ideas and opinions, you just want to push an anti-circumcision agenda. And that's fine, except when it ruins debate.

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I wouldn't think that Johnny would characterize this as a debate, but rather an attempt at educating. That he's studied the subject isn't a matter of dispute as far as I can see.

posted September 20, 2007 01:01 AM         

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I think it's a matter that they market personal hygiene products to women...because we buy them.

You can fill in the other half of that equation.

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Yes, men are dirty and don't care about hygiene, so there's no market. I can see the stereotype you're presenting, and, like I said, it's offensive.

posted September 20, 2007 01:03 AM         

God made us just the way we are for a reason.. no doctor is God!

LOve and Reverence to ALL. ...

posted September 20, 2007 01:06 AM         

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Me attack you? That's laughable.

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Well, you did all but call me a zealot, imply that I was closed-mined, etc.. Not that I'm offended, it's just a point.

I certainly wouldn't start spouting stereotypes about women to justify female-circumcision. You know they say it makes sex better for the man? Is that not offensive?