posted February 21, 2009 03:48 PM         

Pick an area and work on it.
Clean up your area.
And be gentle. Don't make people against cleaning up your area.
It's a fine balancing act.

The truth is, different kids need different approaches.

I know that,
because it's my area.

I also know that people don't need much education to work in my area. And my area needs more people working in it who really care. But then the world needs more people who really care. And have time and energy to care. And that comes back to changing the whole system... and there we go on the endless cycle again. Bringing us back to "clean up your own area" and support those who are cleaning up their own area... which is the only way to get anything done.

posted February 22, 2009 03:25 PM         

quote:

---

Hindsight, and the passing of a lot of years, have allowed me to understand that my parents were very much at their wits end with me,
but I saw it then as abandonment and, for the most, I still do.

---

Its hard to know when compassion is just enabling parents; when respect for their choices is just throwing our hands up, or "washing our hands", as it were. Likewise, we may understand that addicts are at their wits end, and doing their best in a world that cannot provide for their sensitivity, but no objectivity suffices to erase the resentment we feel (or to make their choices less devastating to themselves and others). Still, the best we can do is help by offering understanding without blame. Spreading information about recovery (or parenting) is good but you dont want to become a broken record, and you dont want to present it in an entirely resentful and judgemental way. In my experience, that makes the message more likely to get tuned out, and it pushes the buttons that trigger habitual behaviors. I'd think the same is true, whether providing parents information on the topic of bad parenting, or providing drug users information on the topic of drug abuse.

Through my study of Astrology, and specifically the water signs, planets, and houses, in harmony with other studies, I have come to realize the power of unconscious forces. There is so much karma that never has a chance to catch up with us; it never has a chance to reach consciousness and be worked through; it acts almost entirely unconsciously, while we are being inundated by the modern world. Some people have less of this to deal with, so more is in their awareness and in their power. Or they have successfully passed through the fires to make these parts of themselves conscious. But many people are at the mercy of forces much greater than themselves. And it is an error to believe that these people are simply less evolved. They may be far more evolved than we know, to be carrying such crosses. (And, sure, the ones who carry them may be wiser and stronger still.)

Who could have looked at Saul, for example, and guessed that he was a vision away from becoming Paul - a vision provoked by his cruel and unconscious behavior? God shows his power and depth when He raises such people up because He shows how much lies hidden within us. It may be that those who have lived many lifetimes, and who have the most wisdom within them, also have the most to bring forth from within them. In other words, they may be very unconscious people because they have such deep natures. And it is rare for a sage to be born remembering all his lessons from past lives. Far more often we hear of the man or woman who spends a lifetime bringing to consciousness the accumulated wealth of many lifetimes. And if he/she experiences enlightenment as the realization of what is already known, it may be because what is realized is precisely that wisdom which had been made conscious in former lives, and consequently been stored in the unconscious mind for the sake of the present incarnation.

Life is unfair; not all heroism is rewarded; not all compassion inspires recovery, and not all who wrestle with demons overcome them; nor does overcoming mean that they fought a better fight than those who succumbed; perhaps they were protected from the toughest demons, or rescued by an angel. Not all are saved by compassion, but is that evidence of enabling?
It is my belief that no love is ever lost when it is shared.

quote:

---

Maybe if someone had stated the obvious .... maybe not.

---

I doubt it. Seems far more likely to me that the voice of tough love was in their heads all along, hounding them into addiction. That voice already said they werent good enough ("obviously") before the addiction, and now all it has to say is how much ("obviously") worse and undeserving they've become. For every addict scared straight by straight talk, there are hundreds who are talked straight into going the other way. Even for those success stories, the tough love failed a hundred times for the one time it succeeded. But what does any of this provide solid evidence for? It is so difficult to perceive causes and effects on these subtle levels. There is so much we do not know, and do not bother to imagine. To really consider all the implications of these matters -- all the questions they subtly imply -- is to enter on a great adventure. Who pressumes to give a prompt and easy answer to these things has hardly thought on them.

The common fluency of speech in many men, and most women, is owing to a scarcity of matter, and a scarcity of words; for whoever is a master of language, and hath a mind full of ideas, will be apt, in speaking, to hesitate upon the choice of both; whereas common speakers have only one set of ideas, and one set of words to clothe them in, and these are always ready at the mouth. So people come faster out of a church when it is almost empty, than when a crowd is at the door. ~ Jonathan Swift

But, I guess...

When in doubt..

Love.

Though the world goes to pot..

Love?

lol

I guess thats all we're all trying to do.

How to love? How to show love? How to heal?

Shamans! Reiki!! Acupuncture!!! Whole Foods!!!!

(All far more effective than "stating the obvious", in my opinion.)

Or maybe just a few well-directed ice picks?

posted February 22, 2009 03:52 PM         

"The power of fortune is confessed only by the miserable for the happy impute all their success to prudence and merit."

posted February 22, 2009 07:57 PM         

quote:

---

Sorry to hear about your friend and family members, TINK.

---

thank you very much

But many people are at the mercy of forces much greater than themselves

Yes, very much so. I feel I've done not much else the past 5 years but disassemble my unconscious. Illuminating, yes, but messy. Endlessly peeling away layers. This will sound horribly arrogant and I don't mean it to be and .... I'm really hestitating. Well here it is .. I'm daily struck by the degree to which the people surrounding me, people who wisely have better things to do than delve into their unconscious everyday, are hardly much more than the totality of their deep rooted conditioning. A thousand neuroses ricocheting against the walls. Real awarness is hard to come by. Pointing this out to them is hardly recommended. I suppose you don't need that advice. Nafs are very self-defensive, aren't they? Not for a minute would I say I'm above any of this, only that I'm aware of the phenomenon.

quote:

---

I doubt it. Seems far more likely to me that the voice of tough love was in their heads all along, hounding them into addiction. That voice already said they werent good enough ("obviously") before the addiction, and now all it has to say is how much ("obviously") worse and undeserving they've become. For every addict scared straight by straight talk, there are hundreds who are talked straight into going the other way.

---

Again, I don't know. Isn't it natural to be full of what-ifs and could have, should have, might have beens when someone dies? I can certainly hear that questioning in Courteney's voice. My great uncle was the son of a very strong, silent alpha type man. He never learned to assimilate, was always in trouble, the life of the party - that sort of thing. But my uncle, a virgo, was a functioning alchoholic. Very functioning. Confident, well educated, held down a demanding job. While not especially wise, possibly the most intelligent person I've ever met. A true intellectual (that alone says alot about disassociating from pain, doesn't it?)Everyone excused his "problem" because he was so smart and witty and charming. But you're right, he wouldn't have listened to anyone pointing out the obvious. He would have taken offense probably. He was smarter than the rest of us.
Two years before he died, my uncle became seriously ill. It scared him sufficiently that he stopped drinking. It was too late though.
Is it safe to say that was life throwing him a little "tough love"? I've been thinking about it today and almost all of my transformations for the better came about after a Cosmic biitch slapping.

quote:

---

It is so difficult to perceive causes and effects on these subtle levels. There is so much we do not know and do not bother to imagine

---

That's true. Contemplate the proverbial pebble in the water too long though and I find myself paralysed. Should we stand by the water's edge and watch the man drown, leave him to his appointed fate? Who am I to eat a peach? The few times I tried to shake my friend out of her love of suicide, she refused to speak to me. After the fact, her family blamed me for not taking a stronger stand with her. Scylla and Charybdis. Maybe neither approach would have worked. Maybe there was a third option no one considered. My friend was a scorpio too, with similiar placements. Maybe I was the worst person for the job of guard dog. Again, I really don't know. They say a drowning man will try to pull you under but nowadays I'm still a little less likely to walk away.

posted February 22, 2009 08:01 PM         

quote:

---

Who could have looked at Saul, for example, and guessed that he was a vision away from becoming Paul - a vision provoked by his cruel and unconscious behavior? God shows his power and depth when He raises such people up because He shows how much lies hidden within us. It may be that those who have lived many lifetimes, and who have the most wisdom within them, also have the most to bring forth from within them. In other words, they may be very unconscious people because they have such deep natures. And it is rare for a sage to be born remembering all his lessons from past lives. Far more often we hear of the man or woman who spends a lifetime bringing to consciousness the accumulated wealth of many lifetimes. And if he/she experiences enlightenment as the realization of what is already known, it may be because what is realized is precisely that wisdom which had been made conscious in former lives, and consequently been stored in the unconscious mind for the sake of the present incarnation.

---

If I read you correctly, 100% agreement. Bringing forth that wisdom is a subtle alchemey. It's been said that Saul was the reincarnation of Arjuna. If true, that would certainly explain a lot. I imagine Paul knew, but I'd guess Saul did not. Would that knowledge, attained too soon, have interrupted his process?

quote:

---

Life is unfair; not all heroism is rewarded; not all compassion inspires recovery, and not all who wrestle with demons overcome them; nor does overcoming mean that they fought a better fight than those who succumbed; perhaps they were protected from the toughest demons, or rescued by an angel.

---

Here we must part ways. I do think life is ultimatelyfair. Go ahead and call me crazy. Heroism is rewarded - not always with a clear victory and cheering crowds, but bravery in the face of what scares you strengthens the will. Compassion may not always heal the sick, but it refines the soul. I've succombed to demons. I'm sure you have as well. There are great lessons there. To fall again is maybe my worst fear. I wince, I'm nauseated to think of some of the darker roads I've walked. But if that's what it takes, I'll hold my breath and dive under again.

There's a line from the Quran - if Allah Himself blinds your eyes, nothing can make you see. Why would a good and loving God blind me to His Light? I imagine you understand why. Learning to accept this state of blindness is a lesson in accepting his Will. I imagine you understand that as well.

Thank you for the chat. Much better than the last, yes?

~ ~ ~

posted February 23, 2009 12:23 PM         

quote:

---

I'm daily struck by the degree to which the people surrounding me, people who wisely have better things to do than delve into their unconscious everyday, are hardly much more than the totality of their deep rooted conditioning. A thousand neuroses ricocheting against the walls.... Not for a minute would I say I'm above any of this, only that I'm aware of the phenomenon.

---

I can't say I know anyone who isnt aware of this phenomenon, though we may interpret it differently. Everyone you meet is a mass of conditioning, and even the "deconditioning" some people undergo is just another form of conditioning -- a superimposing of some structure, some dogma or worldview, from the outside, -- which allows them to convince themselves that they have effectively reduced the static of warring unconscious forces and brought the mind into an unwavering and orderly view of things. But all of this can be put to use by the nafs, as you well know. If someone is a mass of neuroses, I cannot imagine many things that would be wiser and better for them than a direct confrontation with their unconscious, and a working through of unconscious material. Naturally, when someone undertakes such a thing, he/she is going to get worse (or appear to) before getting better. And what we see and hear in his/her words will be a very recognizable (and very conscious) dialogue between his/her inner neuroses. We may think that we are seeing or hearing something that he/she does not intend to reveal, but the reverse may be true. If someone is consciously pushing the limits of their consciousness, and dragging up unconscious material, he/she cannot help but appear to us in the very midst of that conflict (which others try to disguise, and so, hide from themselves as well as others; whether or not they succeed). Because such a person is not intent on taking precautions against the misunderstandings of others, his speech will invite misunderstandings. It will be highly subjective, and likely to trigger all the habitual censures which others have been conditioned, by nature or environment, to have ready on the tips of their tongues. The more in harmony he becomes with his own personal truth, the more intense and abundant these censures may become, since he cannot carve out an identity for himself without setting himself in opposition to the identities of others; the extent to which he has succeeded in distinguishing himself, will only be equalled by the extent to which others are in disagreement with him. When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. (Swift) But not just the dunces. Everyone.

As you may have discovered in your studies, there are theories about the transcending of the ego which suggest that the ego carries not only the seeds of its own destruction, but of its own salvation, as well. That, contained within our complexes and neuroses are actually the blueprints for our highest destiny; for self-realization. When dealing with the meat of unconscious matter, you find yourself walking this tightrope. The ego has something to say which is not purely narcissistic and "evil", and this is the Word of the individualized Self. While going through this process a person's words will tend to appear both ridiculous and sublime, for that is the nature of the process. Likewise, he will at times appear to argue on the side of his ego, and, indeed, will do so, in his attempt to discover the kernel of truth it hides. Whether or not he has made progress, or completed the process, is not something others will be in a position to judge, since, his very success will reveal itself in a specific, unique, and individual particularization of universal consciousness. By its nature, it will be foreign to us, and that is as it should be, since the result(s) of our own self-realization, will be different and unique to ourselves. When you are committed to this process, and have faith in this process, the only voice you can follow will be your own, whether it is from a lower or higher part of yourself. The Buddha and the pickpocket will be equally incapable of giving you insight into your own psyche. You are utterly unique, and that utter uniqueness is, ultimately, the pearl you are out to discover.

posted February 23, 2009 12:24 PM         

quote:

---

Everyone excused his "problem" because he was so smart and witty and charming.

---

It is the prerogative of great men only to have great defects. ~ La Rochefoucauld

I suppose people will "excuse" anything if you provide adequate compensation. Plenty of people are "excused" for their lack of charm, wit, intelligence, and a whole list of virtues because they have something to offer, even if its only busy work and elbow grease. The real tragedy is when a person has something valuable to offer, the value of which is invisible, or almost invisible, to those he is socially and economically constrained to trade with. Schopenhauer wrote: "Talent hits a target no one else can hit. Genius hits a target no one else can see." I have come to believe that some of the most valuable things are overlooked or treated with scorn, for they catalyze the heart, mind, and soul at the deepest levels and, being the cause of many fruits, do not appear on the surface as fruits themselves. It takes genius almost to recognize and value the subtle contributions of genius. But who knows how all these valued and/or valuable qualities are acquired, or why we lack the ones we do? How is it that some who have failed to acquire intelligence, talent, compassion, empathy, religious feeling, and open-mindedness, -- all of these -- have yet succeeded in acquiring skills of self-disciplined action, and vice-versa? Or, to go deeper, how is it that many who have attained a high degree of humility or discipline on some matters, are still puffed-up and impulsive in others?

Speaking only for those closest to my heart: History is full of brilliant men with great faults, and it is customary to forgive and overlook them, in light of their greater victories. As you know, there is a theory that brilliance is naturally linked to such susceptibility, and this can be argued on a number of levels. Astrologically speaking, when we see a concentration of energies likely to inspire depth of understanding and endeavor in a specific area of life, we also see a corresponding absence of those energies in other areas of life. So, they say that, what the artist failed to accomplish in life, he accomplished in art. Some would say that his art was his life, and perhaps what is best and most memorable in it; the distillation of his life into the immortal voice of his soul. Would we really prefer him to be sober and passionless; sinless and mediocre? Who was it that said, "I'm afraid if I abandoned my vices, my virtues would go with them." When a soul appears that is truly, genuinely overripe and full of chaos, ready to burst into a thousand mind-blowing sonnets, it would take all his time and energy to bring himself into order, and he would have no time for thinking, dreaming, or creating art. Thats what such people are like. They will either be chaotic, or utterly disciplined.. there is no third way for them. Any deviation from a life of strict discipline is an invitation to relapse and lose oneself in dreams, visions, bottles. So, we should be careful, when asking such people to clean up, to ask ourselves whether we would be willing to endure a life of monastic asceticism. For some, the only cosmic ***** slapping left for them is the one affectionately called "The Dark Night of The Soul".

You recall the character of Neil, from 'Dead Poets Society'? Here was a boy with a passion for art and self-expression, whom his father saw as a wayward son (sure, his father saw other things in him, but the focus was primarily on what Neil's free-spirited character seemed to lack). Neil wanted to act.. that was his passion. His father "***** slapped" him right out of that "pipedream" (according to the father, it was a pipedream, though others could see Neil had talent which, even in its infancy, had the power to make him and others feel vital and connected) and right into suicide. Sure, we can see this as evidence of Neil's sensitivity, and a certain "weakness" of character (if strength of character can be judged by one thing alone). But we can also see it as a simple reality. Neils do exist, and attempts to ***** slap them into another way of life can be misguided for several reasons. For one thing, they may be based on our own values, which may in fact be biased, or, at least, not suitable for Neil, who is a different order of being, and must have a different order of values in order to be in harmony with his own nature.

quote:

---

It's been said that Saul was the reincarnation of Arjuna.
If true, that would certainly explain a lot.
I imagine Paul knew, but I'd guess Saul did not.
Would that knowledge, attained too soon, have interrupted his process?

---

Well.. Do you belive in a universal order which could allow such knowledge to be given "too soon"? Or do you imagine that all things happen at their appointed times, in accordance with the seasons of the soul? Whatever knowledge was revealed to Saul on the road to Damascus left him changed; left him Paul. Was it a cosmic ***** slapping from the Christ that did it? No. It was a question ("why do you persecute me") and cry for mercy. Most importantly, it was a priviledged revelation of the truth, that Jesus is holy. Without such a revelation, would Saul (or Kurt Cobain and your uncle, for that matter), have changed and embraced a higher way of life? The argument that this revelation was the fruit of good karma earned in other lives does not suffice for me, for numerous reasons; many of which you have already heard, and none of which you seemed to agree with.

quote:

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Why would a good and loving God blind me to His Light? I imagine you understand why.

---

You have quite an imagination.

No, I do not believe I know why.
I've found no argument sufficient for me.

I guess I'm not entirely unlike the sufi in that story,
who is never satisfied with the answers he receives.

You know the one.

quote:

---

Thank you for the chat. Much better than the last, yes?

---

Same to you. We do our best.
God willing, our best gets better.

You're welcome for the Van Gogh link.

posted February 23, 2009 01:34 PM         

I wonder if Nietzsche's ideas regarding the supremacy of instinct correspond to Taoist views...

posted February 23, 2009 01:36 PM         

"Here we must part ways. I do think life is ultimately fair. Go ahead and call me crazy. Heroism is rewarded - not always with a clear victory and cheering crowds, but bravery in the face of what scares you strengthens the will. Compassion may not always heal the sick, but it refines the soul. I've succumbed to demons. I'm sure you have as well. There are great lessons there. To fall again is maybe my worst fear. I wince, I'm nauseated to think of some of the darker roads I've walked. But if that's what it takes, I'll hold my breath and dive under again.

There's a line from the Quran - if Allah Himself blinds your eyes, nothing can make you see. Why would a good and loving God blind me to His Light? I imagine you understand why. Learning to accept this state of blindness is a lesson in accepting his Will. I imagine you understand that as well."

Libra says well, it takes the bad for there to be good

and we question and learn to just accept that it IS the "will of God" (seems like a Cappy obedience to authority type thing) and ultimately in this acceptance of everything and everyone in Aqua... step by step as we make an excuse for, and excuse everything because it all had a cause... and it just depends how you look at it... and we finally reach Pisces where we understand it all just IS.

Not bad or good. Just the WAY
IT
IS.

"The Way"

IS

We can go back and forth and complicate it all we want... that's what weaving the illusion is all about. And people are on different places on the path (of The Way) and need directions, so it is good that we all serve as both guides and amusing distractions/attractions. And it is certainly nice to appear on any place on the path we like. Teleport in to say Hey and see what's going on today... And point the way if someone is lost or floundering, like we all do...

But ultimately... it All
just

Is

posted February 23, 2009 04:03 PM         

But that is what I am saying, about how it just "is"..

Is it bad or good... yes.. both, neither, it depends...

Its all relative...

But when i was telling you my theory about cycles, Melody, remember, about Pisces, and the dissolution of the addict being part of the cycle. And I was trying to tell you how it is natural and necessary. And you thought i was saying that he is a great soul who is choosing to go through that. But I am not saying it is good or bad.. I mean, since I dont know that he is under the protection of divine providence, i am inclined to say that it is bad, but, more importantly, it is natural. So, in this sense, it is above reproach. The point is that things happen in their seasons. Even if there is an objective harmony, it is not sympathetic to, or even typically related to, the realm of space/time. Even timeless truths take time to realize. Precisely timeless truths take time to realize. But we are all looking over each others' lessons and marvelling that everyone else is so foolish. That is the substance of our own foolishness. We see in part. And we all see different parts. And round and round we go. The one who knows, knows only that he doesn't know.

And that the journey continues...

posted February 23, 2009 07:07 PM         

There was something I wanted for the past ten years or so. I waited for it. This was a physical object. Covet is probably the best way to describe it. I felt it was my due, I felt it was owed to me. I had earned it. Everything else in my life would fall into place once it was mine. Well, of course I recently got it and of course it proved to be severely disappointing. It came all wrapped up with headaches and financial difficulties and broken trust and assorted nice things like that. An old story. That's what I mean by a Cosmic Biitch Slap. I thought I understood the dangers of attachment. I could certainly pontificate for days on the meaning of "Thou shall not covet". Clearly I didn't truly know a thing. My understanding was shallow and intellectual. Slap, slap , slap. It was a painful enough lessson, but I sure did need it. I hope I've learned it.

I won't speak for anyone else here, but for me I find that the better I understand the purpose behind the lesson, the better I am able to bear the pain or sadness or just plain frustration that accompanies it. In fact, I'm at the point where I almost sort of look forward to the next slap, as they've proven to be so efficient. I can be horribly lazy otherwise. They've also - very very slowly but surely - sensitized me to the little nudges that I ignored so easily in the past.
But I'm sure I'll regret having said that.

posted February 23, 2009 07:11 PM         

quote:

---

You recall the character of Neil, from'Dead Poet's Society'?

---

Years ago I saw maybe the last 20 minutes or so of that movie. A Midsummer's Night's Dream? Neil was the boy in the window with the garland on his head? It was a beautiful image in the moonlight. I do remember his father's very confused and hurt response to Neil's "passion" and, later, his shocked, heartbroken reaction to Neil's death. Obviously they didn't understand each other. Maybe they were only able to see each other through the haze of their own particular issues? You identify with this boy? What do you think Neil needed? WHat do you think his father needed?

Your sincere love for the artist is easy to see and you describe the artistic archetype beautifully. I don't disdain the path of the artist. Quite the contrary. A great artist may have visions profitable to all, even if he himself doesn't truly understand them. Wild, unleashed emotions, an overactive intellect, a too strong will - all these things are fascinating to watch and may for a time teach something to those under their sway, but, I still feel that eventually we must grab the reins. I'm struck that you would consider a state of sinlessness boring and mediocre. I don't understand this.

"The dark night of the soul" is a rare state and a serious business. I know only enough to say I'm not qualified to remark on it anymore than that, so I'll back respectfully away.

posted February 23, 2009 07:26 PM         

quote:

---

Well.. Do you belive in a universal order which could allow such knowledge to be given "too soon"? Or do you imagine that all things happen at their appointed times, in accordance with the seasons of the soul? Whatever knowledge was revealed to Saul on the road to Damascus left him changed; left him Paul. Was it a cosmic ***** slapping from the Christ that did it? No. It was a question ("why do you persecute me") and cry for mercy. Most importantly, it was a priviledged revelation of the truth, that Jesus is holy. Without such a revelation, would Saul (or Kurt Cobain and your uncle, for that matter), have changed and embraced a higher way of life? The argument that this revelation was the fruit of good karma earned in other lives does not suffice for me, for numerous reasons; many of which you have already heard, and none of which you seemed to agree with.

---

I believe that eveything happens at its appointed time. What might appear "too soon" from our perspective is meant to appear so. Therefore, from a higher perspective, was not too soon. From that perspective, nothing is ever too soon or too late.

The "how many brownie points did you earn in your last lifetime?" isn't a philosophy to which I easily subscribe. But if you said that Saul's soul was seasoned or prepared over the course of many lifetimes, that what occured in the past naturally led to the circumstanes of the present, I'd happily buy that.

If this is the point you meant to share - that it was necessary for the Spirit in question to submit to being Saul before it could rise to become Paul, I say YES! Absolutely! And what a marvelous observation to contemplate.

So .... it was a transformative meeting, and I'd go so far as to say it was violently transformative and even painful. "Why do you persecute me?" I hear that not as the Christ asking Saul for clarification - surely such a being already knew precisely what made Paul tick - but rather Christ presenting the question to Saul that he might amswer it for himself.

quote:

---

, I do not believe I know why.
I've found no argument sufficient for me.

---

always looking for an argument
But this surprises me. Are you teasing? Maybe we're lost in translation again. Judas is the first to come to mind.

actually, you remind me of the man who road the donkey to Rumi's house.

Thank you for your thoughts. There are a number of things I'll enjoy giving further consideration.

quote:

---

when i was telling you my theory about cycles, Melody, remember, about Pisces, and the dissolution of the addict being part of the cycle. And I was trying to tell you how it is natural and necessary. And you thought i was saying that he is a great soul who is choosing to go through that. But I am not saying it is good or bad.. I mean, since I dont know that he is under the protection of divine providence, i am inclined to say that it is bad, but, more importantly, it is natural. So, in this sense, it is above reproach. The point is that things happen in their seasons. Even if there is an objective harmony, it is not sympathetic to, or even typically related to, the realm of space/time. Even timeless truths take time to realize. Precisely timeless truths take time to realize. But we are all looking over each others' lessons and marvelling that everyone else is so foolish. That is the substance of our own foolishness. We see in part. And we all see different parts. And round and round we go. The one who knows, knows only that he doesn't know.

---

...other than to question that there can be anything NOT under Divine Providence, I would say that, yes, this is what I see too.. Kurt was under Divine Providence when he died. Courteney was under Divine Providence when she didn't, or couldn't, save him. I'm respectfully assuming he tried his best with what he was given. I'm assuming she did too. I'm no fatalist, I believe we answer for our actions and in doing so we learn, but I also trust that to try is really all that's asked of us.

posted February 23, 2009 07:36 PM         

Just went my own place with it.

I'll read what you wrote and get back to you later...

Wanted to post this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhW7FLo6peU

Devendra Banhart
'Feel Just Like A Child'

posted February 23, 2009 10:19 PM         

This is where we part ways and I don't get where you are coming from. To me, everything is "divine" by the nature of everything being everything so everything is divine providence and for the best of the whole... the "whole" being the total of all wisdom and intelligence and therefore all knowing/ omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent etc. =God / total / All
Even if the Whole is then trying to destroy itself with the least pain possible, or as quick as possible with as much pain as it can tolerate... whatever. It knows everything so it knows best.

I like your song and the video of him singing it very much. I might pass it around. And I'm editing this to say that I am going to sleep and just looked this over again and want you to know I said it with complete love and respect in case you can't tell my tone. :^)

Tink, I don't think you should erase anything, it's all good stuff. I don't think you always "get" Steve but that's the way he likes it :^D Cryptic Scorpio and he shouldn't get so frustrated if you don't get him when he tries so hard not to be "got". :^) But he'll have a good argument for that one! :^D ( :^p )

26T, the stuff you said blessedly got me asking questions about the place I wanted work, when I went out the other night, and I got some really interesting information. It seems a lot of people that are in "my extended network" went to the place I want to work (a ranch camp) as "a last resort" before being sent to ANOTHER place that was a boys home and much like a prison for young boys. In my friend's words... a horrible place, horrible things happen, "you know... boy on boy action..." Then he was looking around to see if any of his friends were there that went to the bad boy's home/prison and when he didn't see anyone he said, "Racer! You know Racer. He had to get 21 stitches in his a** because they gang raped him."
This breaks my heart because I had a romantic moment with sweet "Racer" (changed the nickname) once and shared a gentle kiss. He was feminine looking and had beautiful long hair. He went to real prison, and years and years later I saw a "Missing" poster on a gas station door window when I was leaving to take one of my small road trips up the river. I had a horrible feeling seeing that poster and the moment is still seared into my mind. A year or so later I found out he had been found murdered not too long after that. Something to do with drugs.
When I was in the hospital a couple years ago with that pressure on my brain I kept asking a nurse if she was his sister because she reminded me so much of him. She kept telling me no but I didn't believe her or thought she must be hearing me wrong. I had been saying a lot of crazy things so they just humored me to keep me calm.
I knew him when I was 19. He is just one of the friends who died. Just one of the reasons for pursuing the education I pursue.
But I didn't know about that bad place. And when I asked my friend "J" about the place I want to work (the ranch camp, not the scary prison) and what the guys he knew said about it, if it was good or bad... he said, "they didn't say it was good or bad, just that it didn't help them". I said, "it didn't?" and he said, "Well, they went to St. Charles right after that." I think St. Charles is the name of the bad prison. Or Saint something. Sad and scary that it is named after a Saint.

posted February 24, 2009 02:58 AM         

Funny you would say that. Someone told me recently I had no right complaining about being misunderstood if I insisted on keeping half my cards up sleeve all the time. It was a fair statement, but I always felt cards should be dealt selectively. Actually, I didn't think I was "complaining". I'm usually comfortably resigned with being misunderstood. So, there you go right there.
Scorpios tend to comfort themselves with the notion that they understand everyone, while remaining elusive and impenetrable themselves - not a professional astrologer's analysis there, by any means. Just a layman's view of what I've noticed in myself and others.
But honestly I think Steve and I get each other only very rarely. Maybe not all. This is a gift.

That's a very sad story you have there.

26 ~ I've about singlehandedly dragged your nice thread off track. I apologise. I'll look forward to reading HSC's response, if he posts one, but otherwise I'll let it go.

posted February 24, 2009 03:30 PM         

quote:

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Of course I remember the cycle conversation. I was explaining my perspective in that frame so you would understand it. I'm not sure if you do because you said I thought you were saying that a Pisces addict was a great soul but I didn't think YOU were saying that necessarily... or at least didn't necessarily think that is what you MEANT to be saying. I said that because that is what I think and what you were saying seemed to be confirming what I thought.

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I know.. you suspected i was saying one thing, which would confirm what you think, but i was in fact saying something else which i think corresponds to the topic of "is-ness". I'm not sure where exactly we do, or if we do, part ways philosophically as to the nature of Providence. I can agree that God knows best in the sense that He is doing the best that He can... and that, God's best is the best that can be done. Does this mean God is working in our best interest, or even in the best interest of the whole? What if God is schizophrenic, or neurotic, and we are messengers of His consciousness, rays of God's light that have dwindled down to glimmers, here on "The Hero's Journey", or "The Fool's Journey", endeavoring to learn something concerning the pathology of our deranged Creator by entering upon this quest into the mad world of His unconscious, inner mythology? Then, like Parsifal, our place is not to stand mute awaiting the instruction of God, or to have faith in His plan, but to speak up, and to lend ourselves, our consciousness, to the great procession of life. Like Job, we must ask "Is this right??!!! Could this be right?!!!!", for then, paradoxically, God will say, "You have spoken the thing which is right". We are that voice that must sing to complete and harmonize the Choir.... And God has sent us into the world for that purpose. So, in that sense, God has provided. But if we stop to think that God has provided, we will not become the embodiment of His provision.

quote:

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I like your song and the video of him singing it very much. I might pass it around. And I'm editing this to say that I am going to sleep and just looked this over again and want you to know I said it with complete love and respect in case you can't tell my tone.

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Thanks. Yeah. Kids seem to like it a lot.

quote:

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I don't think you always "get" Steve but that's the way he likes it :^D Cryptic Scorpio and he shouldn't get so frustrated if you don't get him when he tries so hard not to be "got". :^)

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Pardon me, but thats gotta be one of the silliest things you've ever said, Melody. I do not try to be cryptic. On the contrary, I work hard to communicate, in all sincerity, the reality of my inner life, as best I can. Whatever I make apparent or subtle, and whatever I omit, is in its proper place, to the best of my knowledge and ability. I thought you understood this about me. I am routinely criticized for putting so much effort into explaining myself and my point of view. I can't believe you would tell me or anyone else that I am here to be cryptic. Maybe you are thinking of Zala, and just about everyone else besides me? Nearly all that I am is sincere and impulsive spontaneity, instinct, emotion, curiousity, imagination... and it is all there. It's all spilled out on the boards, right here. I'm defenseless. Even my "defense" is defenseless. It stigmatizes and incriminates me, by ordinary standards. And maybe thats why you think i dont want to be understood; because I make no effort to disguise points of contention. I write largely for my own pleasure and instruction, but always with an eye to clarifying myself as much as possible without altering my appearance for the sake of my listeners' understanding. If the subject of my exposition is not so clearly and matter-of-factly deliniated, it may be that what I am endeavoring to give is a complete picture, including a view into all that is ambiguous, paradoxical, and unresolved within my psychic experience. The confusion is as much mine as it is yours. There is no smoke-screen here.. only the smoke that fills the room when the hearthfire is stoked by the alchemist's bellows. I really am this complex. And I dont, and wont, pretend to understand myself.

quote:

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But he'll have a good argument for that one!

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Damn right I will.

posted February 24, 2009 03:42 PM         

Oh good.
An argument.

bring it

(be gentlllllleeee! hehe)

posted February 24, 2009 03:53 PM         

But I think it is conceited of you to think you know when I am teaching and when I am reaching.

There's a fine line, and part of what I teach is in the reaching, not always in what has been dug up.

Just because its not all gold, doesnt mean the mine is empty. I still dig it.

posted February 24, 2009 04:43 PM         

I wasn't challenging you earlier either. Just a little spar. All being playful.
And even if I am an 8th house pit bull masquerading as Libra/Capricorn beagle, I would still only bite if I was in extreme fear or extreme pain.

And for the record, I don't often think you are reaching and you usually say when you are... "I have this theory" or something, you will say, which is the same thing I would say so I totally respect that.

I can detect some things about you though... like when I should back off.
Because as far as I'm concerned, you are so intelligent that you are very rarely wrong and do not miss things logically. So when you get things wrong and aren't seeing things correctly, it is usually because you are emotionally touchy and looking for a fight. And if thinking I can tell that about you makes me conceited, then I guess I am in that area.