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Author Topic:   Wal-Mart Upsets Cosmic Balance of Ruins
Harpyr
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posted October 12, 2004 05:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
It's not meant to be a career... That's the problem.. The Walmart puts under small buisness where the local owner DID have a career- owning his own buisness and then offers its 'transitory' jobs..

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Randall
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posted October 12, 2004 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
I do feel bad about the mom and pops, but the concept that drives them out of business is the same thing that gives us computers and other technology at such an affordable cost--capitalism. America does have anti-trust laws to protect against monopolies and unfair business practices, but other than that, capitalism and supply/demand drives the economy. It will always be that way in America. There are governments out there that lean more toward socialism for anyone who is uncomfortable with America's economic structure.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Harpyr
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posted October 12, 2004 09:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
Sorry Randall, this land was here long before capitalism and it will be here long after.. I do not have to be loyal to that economic system to be loyal to this land..

So, what you are saying is that you find sticking to the hardline of captialism to be more important that promoting small, locally owned buisness? I think that's sad.

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Randall
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posted October 13, 2004 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Actually, capitalism goes back to the Native Americans who traded, and even back to early man. Money was created as a medium of exchange, so that people wouldn't have to carry their gold/silver (or sheep/oxen) everywhere.

Actually, I said I felt bad for the mom and pops--but supply and demand dictates the marketplace. Just the way it is.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Harpyr
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posted October 13, 2004 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
Randall, the use of currency does not a capitalist make...
The American Indians most certainly were NOT capitalists. They did not accumulate surplus material items. They did not profit. Capitalism is all about the accumulation of profit. Neo-liberal capitalism is about ever increasing growth of profits despite the fact that we live in a limited world. Economies are simply sub-sets of ecosystems. American Indians realized this and that is why they had a stable economy based on the limits of their ecosystems. They knew the value of allowing an ecosystem to retain the energy it needed in order to perpetuate itself so that their children would have all that they had. Our society has yet to figure this out. We take so much out of ecosystems that they are not able to continue their cycles and therefore they dissapear. This is because our society worships this notion of continuous growth despite the fact that we know it's not possible to continue exploiting our ecosystems without consequence and that we are accruing massive ecological debts that our children will have to pay.

So, yes.. this land is older than capitalism and will be around long after capitalism is discarded as a irresponsible means of economic management.

The problem, as I see it, is that people say stuff just like you did.. "I feel bad for the mom and pops (or the people in forced labor making our clothing, or the dissapeared forests, or the polluted rivers, etc.) but that's what the market dictates..blah blah blah.." It's as if people are willing to sell their souls because they believe that the almighty market place is the highest good. I just think that's lunacy. Randall, what you you value above free-market capitalism??, pllease.. I really want to know.

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Eleanore
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posted October 13, 2004 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message
I can't speak for anybody but myself, but from my experience with people who seemingly "worship" capitalism ... well, it's almost like they feel that there is no other way for people to be truly ambitious. I mean, for them to have their own creative idea and work tirelessly towards it ... and then make a huge profit from it assuming that their creative endeavor happens to be what peopel want. The problem with that is that some people are just so darn ambitious and greedy that they'll take their idea, or someone else's, and capitalize on it to the point that no other competitors can survive against them. Which kind of defeats the purpose of being ambitious and following your dreams for many.
Still, it's not the system's fault that people abuse it. The problem is not with the system, it's with the people. Any system would be susceptible to some kind of corruption as long as the people playing a role in it are corrupt. People that only care about themselves, people that just want to make as much money as possible, people that don't care about how many lives they ruin so long as they succeed. NOT all business folk are like that but those that are sure make a huge mess for everyone else. I guess they figure they're going to die one day and spend eternity in Heaven and not have to deal with the cr*p they've created.
Still, there is hope ... in the form of backlash. Backlash is an inevitable part of growth, it seems, for modern man. We keep swinging from one extreme to the other until one day, hopefully, we'll actually find a balance.
There are some people that, if they don't know, you can't tell them.
Unfortunatley, lots of people are still stuck on growth via pain ... so then we will have pain in order to grow. The pain of seeing our Earth die around us, the pain of dealing with natural disasters that threaten to wipe us out because of an imbalance in nature, both human and otherwise, the pain of becoming ill because our nutrients are being depleted in our soil and our food is full of synthetics, the pain will go on and on ... until enough people realize, for themselves, that it's stupid, just plain stupid and illogical and emotionally backwards to abuse our world with the excuse of "living life to the fullest". How full can life be when it's empty of the things that truly matter? <sigh>

/rant off
My apologies.

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"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi

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Randall
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posted October 13, 2004 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
I obviously value many things over political systems; however, I value capitalism over any other form of government.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Harpyr
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posted October 13, 2004 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
I realize that, Randall.. I'm curious as to what the other things are besides political systems that you value most dear..
The reason I'm wondering is because maybe some of the things you value above political systems are being attacked by capitalism. I know many of the things I value are- clean air, clean water, healthy soil and a safe, secure food source, to name a few.

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Randall
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posted October 13, 2004 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Are you presuming that another form of government would better handle those concerns? I don't know any capitalists who want dirty air or water.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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proxieme
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posted October 14, 2004 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for proxieme     Edit/Delete Message

Capitalism isn't a form of government.
It's an economic system.
Unless you're saying that the two are inextricably linked.

But you're right - I don't know any capitalists who want dirty air or water or low wages (per se) - in their back yard or for their children, anyway.
Just keep those horrors "over there", shunt them off out of sight...the inescable problem with that (from the most selfish perspective possible) being that there is ultimately no place far enough away.
Somehow it will come back, in one form or another. It will come back as cancerous environmental sickness or as the wrath of fellow man and nature.
Ultimately, there is no "over there".

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proxieme
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posted October 14, 2004 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for proxieme     Edit/Delete Message
And, just to clarify, I'm not better than anyone else in this regard -

I drive a Jeep Cherokee (because it was free ) and have been known at times to go for the lowest price.
I even know that the lowest price is seldom if ever the greater value, but that's why the word "hypocrisy" came to be.

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Harpyr
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posted October 14, 2004 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
What about all those corporations lobbying to loosen environmental laws which will no doubt result in exactly those things?

I'm not saying that socialism or communism would be any better.. Their environmental track records are just as atrocious in many instances. The State can be just as ruthless about destroying ecosystems as the Corporation. There's little difference as far as the Earth is concerned between the different economic systems as they now exist. Nevertheless, I am saying we need a new economic arrangment.. It will just have to be something that the world has never seen in modern times. A system based on promoting local autonomy as far as food is concerned and that always weighs the health of our ecosystems against the decisions made.
One thing I think everyone can agree on is that humans are quite ingenious when we want to be and I don't think it's such a tall order to ask that we try and conduct ourselves in a more responsible manner toward this amazing planet which is our Mother. I do realize that this will require a major shift in our priorities and the way we view the earth. It has alot to do with science. Mechanistic science, on which our economic system is based on is outdated. It's the science that says our world can be divided up into segments and analyzed in its singular components and therefore it makes sense that we can cut down entire forests and replace them with sterile tree farms and there will be no consequences.
The reality is now science has shown us that everything is relational.. it's all about systems. One tiny part of a system changed can affect the whole in unpredicable ways. Cutting down a forest in California can lead to drought in the Midwest, for example. We need to create an updated economic system that takes modern science into account. We also need to realize that material accumulation is not humanity's highest calling. It's a dang cliche but so true- money can't buy you love or make you happy or whatever. There are other more important things and we need to start stressing those things more. Right now all we do as a society is program people through advertising to think that shopping is going to make us happy. I believe this is not only the cause of our environmental ills but a large reason for many people's mental ills. We are an overly medicated society and it's clear our collective mental state is one of imbalance. I believe the only way to bring it back to balance is to bring our relationship with the natural world back into balance. And that will be impossible as long as we embrace capitalism as an economic system. Time to get back to the drawing board, so to speak....

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enlik
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posted November 10, 2004 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for enlik     Edit/Delete Message

It's good to know that there's always hope for the next generation...especially after reading another issue of Ecologist magazine or seeing what a ridiculous amount of space gets extinction of more species...
Thanks Talaith,Paras,Harpyr,LibraSparkle, Eleanore and all of you who think and feel the same way...it's easy to be lazy and indifferent to the things that are daily happening around us,but we don't see...fortunately more and more people are getting "the message" and trying to say NO, everything isn't as it seems...
PS: It looks like Tesco is following the same "footsteps" here in UK and on Continent...of course with many others!

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paras
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posted November 10, 2004 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for paras     Edit/Delete Message
Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world -- and never will.
-- Mark Twain

Forgive me for saying so, anyone who may feel this is 'confrontational', but... "that's just the way it is" honestly sounds like 'petrified opinion' to me.

Love your ideas, Harpyr. Not only do I agree wholeheartedly, but you obviously have thought these things through very thoroughly. Something I have not done, myself. I wouldn't mind learning a thing or two (or forty or fifty ) from you.

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http://www.mirc.co.uk/

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enlik
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posted November 22, 2004 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for enlik     Edit/Delete Message

Hiya Paras,
Well fair enough, but it wasn't meant to sound as
you call it "another petrified opinion"but rather as
a"personal" opinion.
I only wanted to add a little bit of my "support" and "light"...more or less as an agreement with all that that was said by you and the others...
I was simply happy for the fact that people still care...I've had many times in past publicly expressed my total disgust for all this awfull commercial selfishness and greed happening all around the world even in such a "sacret" areas as is Teotihuacan!
I absolutely adore this PLACE and it's tearing my heart just to read about it!

quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The movement gives full rein to spiritualists, such as Ms Ortega, who believe Teotihuacan's pyramids and temples possess a special energy that Wal-Mart's presence threatens to throw off balance.
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I also responded to this subject not only for the important enviromental reason but for the spiritual reason as well...
...and believe me, I'm trying to "break the chain" by helping to the enviroment as much as I can...and most importantly to teach the new generation[working with kids] have this respect and "feeling" for our Mother Earth as something totaly "natural"...
PS: Don't worry you don't sound "confrontational"
to me. I understand what you mean...
Nika

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Saffron
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posted November 23, 2004 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Saffron     Edit/Delete Message
Nika ~

i don't think paras wasn't referring to your post...actually, he was echoing your sentiments.

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enlik
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posted November 24, 2004 04:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for enlik     Edit/Delete Message
My apology to you Paras...a bit of misunderstanding...
Love and Light

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Saffron
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posted January 14, 2005 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Saffron     Edit/Delete Message
during the holidays walmart might seem a center for shopping needs, but let's not forget all the suffering this engenders.

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Randall
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posted January 15, 2005 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Harpyr
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posted January 16, 2005 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
Published on Sunday, January 16, 2005 by The Sunday Herald (Scotland)

Wal-Mart ‘Duped’ Locals to Build on Holy Site

A Mexican co-operative say they were tricked into helping the retail giant defuse a row over its new store being built right beside ancient pyramids

by Elizabeth Mistry

For the small group of women entrepreneurs, it was a dream come true. One of the world's biggest super market chains - as part of its much-vaunted community initiative - wanted to sell the co-operative's collection of natural beauty products, made from nopal and xoconostle or prickly pear, cacti that grow in abundance around one of Mexico's most important ancient pilgrimage sites - the pyramids of Teotihuacan.

But now the women believe they have been duped by Wal-Mart, the US-based retailing giant which, they say, desperately needed to portray itself as a good citizen after it caused national outrage by building a new store within the boundaries of the Teotihuacan archeological zone, a 2000-year-old UNESCO World Heritage site whose name means "The Place Where Gods Were Made" and which receives more than two million visitors a year.

"Before the store opened, Wal-Mart asked us to start making the products - 200 a month - as soon as possible," a member of the cooperative told the Sunday Herald. "We are only a small outfit and this was an important deal for us, we had to take out a loan to get it all done on time. When we finished, we tried to contact them to arrange delivery but they never answer our calls and have never paid us. We have tried to contact them for months but nobody wants to help us. Wal-Mart said that it would promote regional producers in the new store. We realize now that they were just using us so they can say on their website that they are working with the community."

Wal-Mart has been the subject of a string of lawsuits in the US ranging from bullying to discrimination. Its new Mexican store, which operates under the Bodega Aurrera brand, has prompted heated debate over convenience versus culture.

Some argue that inhabitants of the nearby town of San Juan Teotihuacan should not face a 15-mile journey to their nearest supermarket and that the 180 jobs Wal-Mart says it has brought are vital for local families. But protesters claim the building damages the integrity of the 2000-year-old site and that both local government officials and representatives from the National Institute of Archaeology and History (NIAH), the state body charged with safeguarding Mexico's archeological sites, colluded with Wal-Mart to fast-track the store, located at a strategic point just off the highway bringing visitors to the site.

Emma Ortega, a longtime resident of Teotihuacan, approximately 40 miles north of Mexico City, describes herself as one of the ruined city's spiritual guardians. She is one of the most vociferous members of the campaign to close the store. Now recovered following a three-week hunger strike she and other members of the Civic Front for the Defense of Teotihuacan undertook to try and stop the opening of the 20-aisle store which local market traders fear will put them out of business, she says that by allowing the construction within zone C of the protected archeological zone, NIAH is breaking the law.

She listed a number of irregularities that "in other circumstances would automatically mean the end of the project" and cannot understand why, after a number of remains were found on the site, the project was not shelved.

"Without a doubt this store has been built on land that was once part of the ancient city. Recent excavations have found tombs, part of a plaza, ceramic shards and an altar which was dated at 450AD. This proves that this is an important site and yet the authorities who originally said that all such findings were important seem to have changed their minds.

"What is the point of having an exclusion zone if you are going to ignore it when someone with enough money comes along? It is clear that the government is turning a blind eye and selling the country's heritage to whoever is prepared to pay the most. NIAH's director should resign."

The decision to allow Wal-Mart - owners of the Asda supermarket chain in the UK - to build the store is shrouded in secrecy. Even though the site is listed by UNESCO and the World Monuments Fund as being of international importance, the original go-ahead was apparently taken by the local head of NIAH without being referred to a senior federal authority. Then, in a still unexplained twist, it emerged that the official responsible resigned a few days later, only for her replacement to be murdered shortly afterwards.

Bizarrely, the NIAH and the local authorities each claim that the other is responsible for issuing permits. The matter has been complicated by an apparently fluid interpretation of the law which has allowed a rash of building - including shops, a luxurious gated residential compound and a hotel - to go unchallenged within the protected zone in recent years. This, argue those in favor of the new store, means that one more building will not be a cause for concern.

Wal-Mart declined to comment. But its website highlights its work with local communities. It prides itself on being a socially responsible company, pointing to the fact that for three years running it has been recognized as such by the Mexican Center for Philanthropy. This national organization was established by the millionaire Mexican businessman Manuel Arango who has devoted himself to good works - since selling the Bodega Aurrera chain to Wal-Mart.

To the protesters' dismay, UNESCO has accepted NIAH's assessment that the store is not likely to damage the archeological site. But several NIAH staff contacted by the Sunday Herald say they feel betrayed by the institute and some of Mexico's best known writers and artists including Carlos Fuentes, Elena Poniatowska and British painter Leonora Carrington have signed a petition against the development.

Sergio Raul Arroyo, NIAH's director, admitted that the store has a bad reputation, but he could not explain how, in spite of such opposition, the government has apparently failed to intervene.

He told the Sunday Herald: "We cannot take into account moral or sentimental issues. We are dealing with a tremendously powerful company here. We don't have the money to fight this."

© 2005 newsquest (sunday herald) limited

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Harpyr
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posted February 11, 2005 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message
Since this thread has become sort of a catch-all for the evils of Wal-Mart, here's another.

Published on Thursday, February 10, 2005 by the Associated Press
As Union Nears Win, Wal-Mart Closes Store
by Adam Geller

NEW YORK - Wal-Mart Stores Inc. says it will close one of its Canadian stores, just as some 200 workers at the location are near winning the first-ever union contract from the world's largest retailer.

Wal-Mart said it was shuttering the store in Jonquiere, Quebec, in response to unreasonable demands from union negotiators that would make it impossible for the store to sustain itself.

"We were hoping it wouldn't come to this," Andrew Pelletier, a spokesman for Wal-Mart Canada, said Wednesday. "Despite nine days of meetings over three months, we've been unable to reach an agreement with the union that in our view will allow the store to operate efficiently and profitably."


Pierre Martineau, left, and Patrice Bergeron, two of the Wal-Mart workers who initiated the unionization, stand in front of their workplace, a Wal-Mart department store, Tuesday Sept. 28, 2004 in Jonquiere, Que. Wal-Mart Stores Inc. said Thursday, Feb. 9, 2005, it will close the Canadian store. (AP Photo/CP PHOTO/Jacques Boissinot)

Pelletier said the store will close in May. The retailer had first discussed closing the Jonquiere store last October, saying the store was losing money.

The United Food & Commercial Workers Canada asked Quebec labor officials to appoint a mediator last week, saying negotiations with Wal-Mart had reached an impasse.

Union leaders dismissed Wal-Mart's reasons for closing the store and promised to fight the move.

"Wal-Mart has fired these workers not because the store was losing money but because the workers exercised their right to join a union," Michael J. Fraser, national director of UFCW Canada, said in a written statement. "Once again, Wal-Mart has decided it is above the law and that the only rules that count are their rules."

Wal-Mart's decision to close the store reflects the retailer's deeply rooted aversion to unions, and its worries that organized labor had nearly established a beachhead, said Burt Flickinger III of Strategic Resource Group, a consulting firm specializing in retailing and consumer goods.

But he said the move could backfire for Wal-Mart, which has worked hard to counter a wave of bad publicity and portray itself as a generous employer.

"The store closing may potentially catalyze the combination of the government (officials in Canada), organized labor and consumers working together against Wal-Mart," Flickinger said.

Claudia Tremblay, a cashier at the store, said many employees burst into tears when managers told them the news Wednesday morning.

"Many people cried, including myself," Tremblay said. "I'm a mother of two children and I'm separated from my husband. It's very difficult."

Tremblay said she abstained from the unionization vote. She said she was upset her noncommittal stance won't save her job.

The store in Jonquiere, about 240 miles northeast of Montreal, became the first unionized Wal-Mart store in North America last September, after the bargaining unit was certified by provincial labor officials. Since then, workers at a second Quebec store have also been granted union status. Neither has reached a contract.

The union efforts at both stores are part of a larger chess game labor organizers are waging with Wal-Mart at stores across Canada. The campaign, financed by UFCW money from both Canada and the United States, is also geared toward capturing workers' attention in Wal-Mart's home country.

The closest a U.S. union has ever come to winning a battle with Bentonville, Ark.-based company occurred in 2000 at a store in Jacksonville, Texas, where 11 workers in the store's meatpacking department voted to join and be represented by the UFCW.

That effort failed when Wal-Mart eliminated the job of meatcutter companywide, and shifted from in-store meatcutting to stocking only pre-wrapped meat.

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I think this thread better belongs in Global Unity so for the first time ever I get to use the administrative options! oooooooooooooooooooooo neato.

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