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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 15, 2007 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
ENANTIODROMIA


Enantiodromia (Greek: enantios, opposite + dromos, running course) is a concept introduced by psychiatrist Carl Jung meaning the superabundance of any force inevitably produces its opposite. It is equivalent to the principle of equilibrium in the natural world, in that any extreme is opposed by the system in order to restore balance.

Jung used it particularly to refer to the unconscious acting against the wishes of the conscious mind. (Aspects of the Masculine, chapter 7, paragraph 294).

Enantiodromia. Literally, "running counter to," referring to the emergence of the unconscious opposite in the course of time. This characteristic phenomenon practically always occurs when an extreme, one-sided tendency dominates conscious life; in time an equally powerful counterposition is built up, which first inhibits the conscious performance and subsequently breaks through the conscious control. ("Definitions," ibid., par. 709)

Enantiodromia is typically experienced in conjunction with symptoms associated with acute neurosis, and often foreshadows a rebirth of the personality.

The grand plan on which the unconscious life of the psyche is constructed is so inaccessible to our understanding that we can never know what evil may not be necessary in order to produce good by enantiodromia, and what good may very possibly lead to evil. ("The Phenomenology of the Spirit in Fairytales", Collected Works 9i, par. 397)

Though enantiodromia was coined by Jung, it is implied in the writings of Heraclitus. Since Jung's recognition of it many centuries later it has been observed in modern culture. For example, it has been applied to the subject of the film The Lives of Others, to show how one devoted to a fascist regime breaks through his loyalty and emerges a humanist.

The term has also been applied as a neologism to describe the tendency of a younger generation to manifest the undesirable traits of a previous generation, despite the repudiation of these traits when they were young.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiodromia

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starr33
Moderator

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From: My Mother
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posted June 15, 2007 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for starr33     Edit/Delete Message
m

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted June 16, 2007 07:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message

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InLoveWithLife
Knowflake

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From: Wonderland
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posted June 20, 2007 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for InLoveWithLife     Edit/Delete Message
This one could use a bump !

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Mirandee
Knowflake

Posts: 4812
From: South of the Thumb - Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
Registered: Sep 2004

posted June 21, 2007 02:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
Very interesting.

I think that most of our actions come from the unconscious mind. Our conscious mind is not even aware of why we do what we do in many cases.

Would be an awesome breakthrough in the field of psychology and for humanity if an understanding of how the unconscious mind operates was discovered or maybe in this case the right word would be "uncovered."

What would be even more wonderful is knowing what we had stored in or unconscious mind. Though maybe that would be more scary than wonderful.

Things that we repress and don't want to deal with are shoved into the unconscious mind. So yeah, I think it would be scary to access that info.

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BlueRoamer
Knowflake

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From: Calm Blue Ocean, Calm Blue Ocean
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posted June 21, 2007 02:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message
That would be cool Mirandee, and I agree wholeheartedly with your evaluation that we mostly run on the subconscious. A biologist might call this instinct. My contention is that we only use our conscious/active processing abilities when they're called upon. Otherise the older, central emotional brain inside us tends to run the show. SOme call this the "reptilian" brain.

It cannot be this simple though, there are certainly thoughts and ideas that process that we are not aware of. Dreams give us incredible insight into the subconscious, and it is through dream analysis, I believe, that we can most easily analyze our subconscious, at least for the time being.


Does entantiodromia explain why people give you gum when your breath stinks? In chemistry an enantiomer is a molecule with a mirror image that is non superimposable. Much like the opposites outlined here, two opposite ends of the same axis.

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26taurus
Knowflake

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From: *
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posted June 21, 2007 03:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message

------------------
The distinction between the past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.
-Albert Einstein

There is no past that we can bring back by longing for it. There is only an eternally new now that builds and creates itself out of the Best as the past withdraws.
-Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted June 21, 2007 11:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Thomas Moore describes the working of this principle in-depth in his bestseller, Care Of The Soul. He subscribes to a school of psychological thought called archetypal, or polytheistic, psychology, and his contention is that, whenever we consciously champion one drive over any other, the repression of other drives creates disturbances in the subconscious, and ultimately undermines whatever drive we have embraced. In all of us, he says, there is a variety of drives, all valid and in need of expression. An extreme example of enantiodromia is when people subscribe to an ascetic religious life, and supress their drives for freedom, sexuality, what-have-you, only to find that these drives are not negated, but, continue to operate in unconscious ways, thwarting the ascetic practices. Whenever we "demonize" some part of ourselves, we make a true demon, and, ultimately, an avenging angel of it; it will return with a vengence and undo the work we have done. The key, says Moore, is awareness and the balance that comes when we embrace our multi-faceted natures. Thomas Moore was a Catholic monk for twelve years before turning to psychology.

As I understand it, although the ground of our being is Spirit, we are also Soul and Personal Self, and any attempt to maintain a pure connection with Spirit is doomed if it does not first embrace all the permutations of Soul and Personality (ours and others'). Embracing them is the only way to get beyond them. And it happens in God's time, not in our own. The dangers of trying to rush this Great Work provide the themes for many religious parables and mythological tales. This is why most esoteric traditions warn us that it is necessary to erect a strong personal identity, or "Ego", before we may safely dissolve the boundaries between Ego, Soul, and Spirit. Otherwise, we leave ourselves open to manipulation by various psychic forces. The history of religion is largely populated with people who have not heeded this warning, and have, consequently, been the dupes of various unconscious and/or external influences, resulting in a mutability that equates to madness, or a rigidity that equates to fanaticism.

"If the string is too loose, it will not play,
if the string is too tight, it will snap."

- Lord Buddha

When we try to "take the kingdom of heaven by violence", or to "storm the gates of the unconscious", as some have described it, we only create a karmic vacuum, and the future repercussions may be such as to set our progress back that much further from the goal, which is, ultimately, wholeness. This, at least, is my present understanding.

"Love is the flower. You got to let it grow."
- John Lennon

In another sense, we may say that the flower is already full grown. Always has been. But, any attempt to speed up, or assist in, the business of the flower communicating its fragrance, merely scatters its fragrance to the winds. As long as you are doing, you are not being. This does not mean we do not take action in the world, but, that we take action in such a way as to express what is most natural to us. Attitude is everything.

The Buddhist tradition itself suffers from a kind of schizophrenic split. There is Theravada, "the Lesser Vehicle", characterized by gradual teaching, and Mahayana, "the Greater Vehicle", characterized by abrupt teaching. Both do not claim to impart truth to the disciple, but only the Way to truth, like a boat that carries one to the far shore, the atmosphere of which cannot be experienced before the arrival. Theravada Buddhism is like a small boat; the deck is cramped, the seats uncushioned. Very few people are suited to adhere to the strict practices of Theravada, also called the Way of the Elders. It is older than Mahayana, and it emphasises ascetic practice and constant purification, to effect the gradual realization of Nirvana. Mahayana takes a different approach. The most well-known school of Mahayana Buddhism is Zen. Zen practice works to effect a more sudden realization of Nirvana. To this end, Zen monks meditate on, or contemplate, various riddles, called "koans", designed to spontaneously by-pass the operations of the conscious mind. Two strong examples of zen koans would be, "where are you between two thoughts", and "what is the sound of one-hand clapping". It is said that the ultimate koan is the universe itself, and when this koan is "solved" (lol), the disciple attains enlightenment. There are stories of monks who, upon "solving" this koan, laughed out loud for many days, and a humorous, knowing glint never left their eyes thereafter.

The difference between these two schools of Buddhism may most easily be observed in a popular story told about two Buddhists. One, an esteemed monk named Shen-hsiu, when asked to present his understanding of Buddhism, wrote the following words on the wall of the monastery:

The body is the Bodhi-tree,
The mind, a mirror bright,
Take care to wipe them always clean,
Lest dust on them alight.

The other, an illiterate kitchen boy named Hui-neng, when read the verse, pleaded with his friend to have his own verse written beside it:

The body is no Bodhi-tree,
The mind no mirror bright,
Since nothing at the root exists,
On what can dust alight?

The second verse was erased by the monks, and the kitchen boy was told to leave the monastery, as it was understood that his view was absolutely fatal to the monastic way of life. He became the legendary author of the Diamond Sutra.

The anti-guru, U.G. Krishnamurti, evinces his own acceptance of Zen when he claims that he attained Nirvana, not because of his spiritual practice, but, in spite of it. According to this way of teaching, any work done with the intended purpose of attainment is just baggage which must eventually be eschewed. Consciously seeking to obliterate the ego merely places another, more subtle mask, over the ego, who is always in control of the one who seeks.

However, it is my understanding that, by means of this backwards practice, a person may come swiftly to the realization that it is backwards, and this, in itself, precipitates enlightenment. So, in a sense, the two schools are merged and become one, as the gradual practice results in the abandonment of all practice, and the abrupt realization of Nirvana. That is, the truth is realized only when the way is utterly abandoned, but the way can only be utterly abandoned when a person has uttelry exhausted him or herself upon it.

"This thing we tell of can never be found by seeking, but only seekers find it."

- Abu Yazid (Sufi)


How's that for "enantiodromia"?


Another popular Zen story tells of a sermon the Buddha gave in which he held up a lotus flower, and this was intended to be the entirety of the sermon. One of the listeners understood and instantly attained a state of realization. The Buddha gave him a knowing nod of approval, and proceeded to preach a long, wordy sermon for the remainder of his audience. The man who understood is credited as the founder of the Zen tradition. This illustrates why Zen teaching is called a "Way" to truth, and not the truth itself. The truth itself is just a flower.


http://www.amazon.com/C are-Soul-Cultivating-Sacredness-Everyday/dp/0060922249/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8044928-1947341?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182433909&sr=8-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_sutra

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Mirandee
Knowflake

Posts: 4812
From: South of the Thumb - Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
Registered: Sep 2004

posted June 21, 2007 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
Very good thoughts HSC. Thanks for those insights.

I agree with Thomas Moore and the rest of what was said in your post.

We are fragmented inwardly and that is why our world itself manifests our inward brokenness and fragmentation. Which is why we cannot make the world whole or one as it should be because we first have to acheive that in ourselves.

Very true that we have to embrace all of our facets and intergrate them. That would lead to a healthy ego that totally accepts, approves of and actually likes ourselves, flaws and all. Once we can do that within ourselves we can then easily do it with others. Psychology says that the reason we hate or dislike someone else is that there is some quality about the other person that we hate in ourselves. So if we learned to accept that quality in ourself then we can accept it in others.

I also believe what you stated, BR in that when our conscious mind is at rest in sleep, that is when we get insights into our subconscious mind through dreams. Which is why many believe that our dream state may be truer reality than our awakened state.

I think in our awakened state we are constantly absorbing things, taking things in through our perceptions and our experiences. Our conscious mind collects all the data. It is our unconscious mind that analyzes and processes all that information. That is why I think our perceptions of things, the way we see them, can be based on past events. Something happens in our awake life and our unconscious mind seems to automatically draw a correlation to past events that hurt us or angered us and retrieves the data. It reruns the tape that conjurs up the same feelings we had in the past.

Though psychologists tell us we can change those tapes just by reprogramming our unconscious mind.

It is as you said, HSC. All in God's time and it has taken me a lot of years just to reach the point of self-acceptance and self-like that I have now. Which is why I believe that humankind does not live long enough to learn all we need to learn and be whole inwardly, and for that reason God is only concerned with effort we make. Not outcome.

You guys expressed it much more beautifully than I did but I am kind of summing it up in my mind in my earthy fashion.

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Mirandee
Knowflake

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From: South of the Thumb - Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
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posted June 21, 2007 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
I could never say ENANTIODROMIA ten times real fast.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted June 21, 2007 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks, Mirandee.

You added some really good points. I like what you said about the individual integrating before he/she can really help society integrate, and how people and experiences trigger our subconscious "tapes". Most of all, even though I do believe in reincarnation, and that we go on and on until we reach perfection, I really liked what you said about how God sees the effort, not the outcome. There's an important truth in that. It's like the Ladder to Heaven, that I've talked about before. What matters is not how high you are on the ladder, but, whether you are standing still, admiring the view, or climbing ever higher towards God. This explains Jesus' admonishment of the Pharisees, and his approval of the repentant sinners. It is also the moral behind of the story of the Prodigal Son.

At the same time, I think there is just as much wisdom in reflecting that God makes no distinction among persons, and sees only the outcome, only what is best in us, for that is the aim and end of all His labor, and we are merely the clay in His hands. An even better analogy would be to think of us as great slabs of granite, and He is the sculptor with His chissel, chipping away at what is external, fleshly, in order to reveal the inward Christ. Always, the Sculptor keeps the vision of the masterpiece in view. It is the same with God. I think, as mortals, we see what is external and what separates us, but God sees the inward man, Christ. In His eyes we are all perfect and, as Christ says, "it is accomplished". The at-one-ment must occur for all of us, individually, but, it has also already occurred through Christ. The life of Jesus is not, in my mind, an isolated instance, but, rather, a demonstration of something which, occuring in the world, must have already occured in the realm of the collective subconscious. Paul tells us that, as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), so it is atoned for by one man (Jesus); the Theosophists claim that Jesus was actually the last earthly incarnation of the man Adam, who was the first man in the cycle of souls to which we belong. According to this view, we are all on our way to becoming Christs, and the only reason Jesus of Nazareth became the first Christ (the first fruits) is because he had a head start. But, as I was saying, because one man fully manifested the Holy Spirit, it proves that we are all atoned for. Since we all reflect parts of one another, the very fact that anyone has attained the perfection of a Christ, witnesses to the corresponding fact that somewhere, in the depths of all our beings, there is a Christ. Indeed, the entire story of the gospel, including the Passion, is occuring at this very moment in the depths of our subconscious minds. Every time we turn to God, Christ is preaching on the Mount of Olives, and every time we turn away from God, Christ is flogged and nailed to the cross.

I see wisdom in both of these views, and I think both are true, in a certain context, whether or not either of them is factual in the context of universal history.

It reminds me of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life: where Severity intersects Mercy, there is The Death of a God. It appears necessary, somehow, to hold in one's mind simultaneously, the awareness of our duty in the world, and the awareness of that part of ourselves which, with God, has already transcended the world. But this dualistic awareness is utterly impossible for us, so, the result is that, with Jesus, we must see the human part of ourselves divested from the divine part of ourselves, time and time again, until the former passes into dust, and the latter to life eternal.

I didn't express these thoughts as clearly as I would have liked to, but I hope some of what I was trying to say makes sense. I'm still trying to work it all out myself. Its true, I do tend to "think aloud", mostly because I am not really resolved in any of my thinking (nor do I intend to be, so long as there is breath in me), and, even the conclusions I have reached have given way to greater questions. Tumbling, tumbling, tumbling, snatching at a thread here, a thread there, pulling and pulled; at once, the weaver and the web.




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ListensToTrees
Knowflake

Posts: 3844
From: Infinity
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posted June 21, 2007 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
I totally agree with Thomas Moore too.

I seemed to have had very similar thoughts as some of these writers and teachers, though I cannot express them anywhere near as eloquently. I wonder where the true source of all these thoughts is? Osmosis? Akashic Records? Hmmm

Sometimes it gives me a bit of a headache though, all that thinking...so I revert back into fun and frivolry....simplicity. It is like having come...full circle.

I was very, very intrigued by the effect that solving the riddle of the universe had on those Zen Monks. I would like to join them! Linda wrote that one of the signs of a spiritually evolved soul was a great sense of humor. Yes. Because innocence...really....is Godliness.....

And sometimes one look into the eyes of an innocent baby or child can surpass all of the most exquisite words of the adult world of teaching.

What U.G. Krishnamurti taught sounds very similar to an interview I listened to on this website called 'Fear of Enlightenment' by Alan Watts http://www.myspace.com/DharmaSpace

So, do I have to exhaust my mind first by getting into all kinds of interesting positions in a Yogi class, becoming incredibly bendy and flexible?

Or can I just 'kick back' as you would say, in ze USA, as happy and contented as a cat....and just be lazy, and contemplate?

Ahhh....to get to that shore that we cannot understand until experienced.

It is difficult to have faith in something called Nirvana which we cannot perceive until perceived(!).....Well I guess this thread is a very hearty meal when it comes to fulfilling my hunger for my question...."what the heck is bloomin' Nirvana anyway?" LOL

Do you think Christ and others really did/ can perform miraculous acts of healing?

I would like to learn this too! (Why not set my sights high?).

You have a wonderful mind, HSC

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted June 21, 2007 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you.


"A man should learn to detect and watch that gleam that flashes across his mind from within, more than the lustre of the firmament of bards and sages. Yet he dismisses without notice his own thought, because it is his. In every work of genius we recognize our own rejected thoughts; they come back to us with a sort of alienated majesty."

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Thanks for the Alan Watts video.


quote:
So, do I have to exhaust my mind first by getting into all kinds of interesting positions in a Yogi class, becoming incredibly bendy and flexible?

Or can I just 'kick back' as you would say, in ze USA, as happy and contented as a cat....and just be lazy, and contemplate?


It's a good question.
I'm having trouble/fun solving it myself.

I think you need to do what feels right.

There are many paths,
and you are always on the right one,
even when you aren't.

Forcing yourself down a particular path may create more problems than it solves.
At the same time, I believe everything is necessary and instructive,
and some problems need to get worse before they get better.

I'm really not sure if there is a "wrong way".

It gets very confusing at this point, lol.

Now I'm suddenly having a lot of thoughts about this, and I just typed out a bunch of them and then decided to delete them. My mind is a little fried right now, from thinking all day.

Here is what I'm thinking now:

"The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining."

- John F. Kennedy


quote:
Do you think Christ and others really did/ can perform miraculous acts of healing?

Yes. But they were not miracles, they only appeared that way to us. When a person has a firm grasp of certain occult principles, and is firmly "grounded in spirit" (to use a rather odd expression), one may easily manipulate things in the material world. Manifesting loaves and fishes, mending broken bones, casting out devils, even raising the dead... All of these things may be performed scientifically by a skilled metaphysician. The surest science I know of to learn such things is Yoga, but it is not the only one. Well, actually, it is, but that is because "Yoga" means "union", and the practice of postures and breathing exercises is just one form of Yoga. Sitting back and contemplating the deeper truths of the universe (or of one's own navel) is another. I really don't think its possible not to do Yoga. I think life is Yoga.

"Let life happen to you.
Believe me: life is in the right, always."

- Rilke

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BlueRoamer
Knowflake

Posts: 3944
From: Calm Blue Ocean, Calm Blue Ocean
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 22, 2007 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message
WELL SHUT MY MOUTH

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ListensToTrees
Knowflake

Posts: 3844
From: Infinity
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 22, 2007 04:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
Quote:
"All of these things may be performed scientifically by a skilled metaphysician."

Yes, HSC. What a FANTASTIC way to put it!

Quote:
"I really don't think it is possible not to do Yoga. I think living life is Yoga"


And BEAUTIFUL quotes. I especially like the poem about the tree


The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining? Perhaps this is when I'll be able to repair my own roof....metaphorically speaking

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted June 22, 2007 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
BR,

Que es eso?


Listens,

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Mirandee
Knowflake

Posts: 4812
From: South of the Thumb - Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
Registered: Sep 2004

posted June 22, 2007 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
HSC

quote:
At the same time, I think there is just as much wisdom in reflecting that God makes no distinction among persons, and sees only the outcome, only what is best in us, for that is the aim and end of all His labor, and we are merely the clay in His hands. An even better analogy would be to think of us as great slabs of granite, and He is the sculptor with His chissel, chipping away at what is external, fleshly, in order to reveal the inward Christ. Always, the Sculptor keeps the vision of the masterpiece in view. It is the same with God. I think, as mortals, we see what is external and what separates us, but God sees the inward man, Christ. In His eyes we are all perfect and, as Christ says, "it is accomplished". The at-one-ment must occur for all of us, individually, but, it has also already occurred through Christ. The life of Jesus is not, in my mind, an isolated instance, but, rather, a demonstration of something which, occuring in the world, must have already occured in the realm of the collective subconscious. Paul tells us that, as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), so it is atoned for by one man (Jesus); the Theosophists claim that Jesus was actually the last earthly incarnation of the man Adam, who was the first man in the cycle of souls to which we belong. According to this view, we are all on our way to becoming Christs, and the only reason Jesus of Nazareth became the first Christ (the first fruits) is because he had a head start. But, as I was saying, because one man fully manifested the Holy Spirit, it proves that we are all atoned for. Since we all reflect parts of one another, the very fact that anyone has attained the perfection of a Christ, witnesses to the fact that somewhere, in the depths of all our beings, there is a Christ. Indeed, the entire story of the gospel, including the Passion, is occuring at this very moment in the depths of our subconscious minds. Every time we turn to God, Christ is preaching on the Mount of Olives, and every time we turn away from God, Christ is flogged and nailed to the cross.

YES!!!!!! Very well expressed! And you have so well summed up my beliefs in all you said here. I will tease you as I like to do Fayte, what you expressed here in your writings is very much in alignment with Roman Catholic theology and doctrine. I am sure that thought is as horrifying to you as it is to Fayte. LOL However you both are more Christian than you realize and more Christian in fact than many professed Christians. Spiritually beautiful souls. Both of you.

I have always known and said this before, I think, that for the things that you and I do not agree on, we are on the most part in agreement on a spiritual level regarding the person of Jesus.

Jesus did it all for us. As you alluded to, on a higher level the mission has already been accomplished. All we have to do is open ourselves to him so that inwardly he can finish his mission of molding us as a sculptor would a piece of clay or a block of granite. Jesus works slowly too, as does the sculptor, using our life experiences as his tools. His mission is to integrate us inwardly first then integrate us with himself and God and all of creation. Unfortunately we are our own greatest obstacle. Our unhealthy ego resists Jesus' efforts. However, it remains that Jesus gently continues to slowly mold us in spite of our resistance.

I do not close myself off to the notion of reincarnation but what you stated in your post is why I don't believe in it at this time. I cannot reconcile my belief that Jesus did it all for us and that the mission has already been accomplished for us by Jesus who brought forgiveness into the world by taking upon himself all the sins or if you will, karma, of the world and making atonement for us. For me, there is no longer any karma for us to work out because of forgiveness that came into the world through Jesus in the form of grace, and not just grace, but Sanctifying Grace. The Grace that makes us inwardly holy and children of God. The world was in darkness and Jesus brought light into the world. Lumen Gentia. - Jesus is the Light of the World. Jesus did it all for us. Why would there be any need for us to reincarnate and work out our own karma when Jesus took it all onto himself and did it for us? In my mind I cannot reconcile forgiveness with reincarnation and the notion that we are in effect, our own saviors who have to work it all out ourselves. I do part ways in the notion that Jesus was the reincarnation of Adam or anyone else. Jesus was THE INCARNATION of God. The one only incarnation. Notice that is the Gospels there were many times when Jesus refused to answer a question posed to him. He simply ignored it knowing that the one who posed the question was not mentally ready for the truth and would not comprehend his answer. Jesus ignored the question posed to him as to whether or not he was the reincarnation of the highly esteemed Jewish prophet, Elijah. He did not deal with the notion of reincarnation at all. He did hint in many ways that he was The Incarnation though.

How do you reconcile the belief in forgiveness and what you stated here regarding Jesus with your belief in reincarnation and the working out of our own karma and past lives, HSC? I ask only because I am curious and because I do have a friend who is Christian who seems to be able to reconcile the two thoughts. I know her explanations and logically, they didn't convince me. So I am also curious to hear yours. It may convince me. Who knows?

Loved your post, HSC. Loved the thoughts contained in it.

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ListensToTrees
Knowflake

Posts: 3844
From: Infinity
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posted June 22, 2007 05:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
Mirandee

I'm not sure if I believe in karma either, EVEN if I believe in reincarnation.

I just wrote this reply, it didn't work and then the whole thing got deleted! Ahhhh! Start again.

Forgiveness is one of the most powerful and purest spiritual teachings. I feel. It has the power to transform everything. Just thinking, writing about it I can feel something magical happening in my heart.

I don't believe that it is necessary to experience every good or bad thing we may have done to others. This feels like a false teaching to me. To do something good for someone in hope of gaining more points for oneself evades the truth....which is simply the spiritual knowledge inside...that we are all connected; to hurt another is really to hurt oneself.

I believe, that to realize fully one day (perhaps in the after life, or here...it doesn't matter where)....exactly what they have done to hurt someone....to fully empathize with this person or animal or whoever....is punishment ENOUGH.

I don't know if anyone has seen the film 'Powder'. It is a film about an albino boy, born with supernatural powers. He was raised in total isolation by his parents, until one day they died and he was taken away into the outside world, where this beautiful soul was ostracized by other teenagers at his school.

Anyway, one of his powers was having total empathy. One day, he found a wounded deer, lying, dying on the ground. He knelt down, beside the deer, witnessed by others who were with him, his heart bleeding. The huntsman, who had shot the deer came forward. Placing one hand on the deer, and the other on the huntsman, he transferred everything the deer was feeling into the huntsman. The man freaked out and was never, ever able to lay a finger on his gun ever again.

A similar thing happens at the end of the original 'The Crow' movie.


The only real evil is ignorance itself. We are only blinded by our own amnesia....which is forgetting who we truly are. Whenever we hurt other beings, we cut ourselves off more and more from the spirit. It is fear and hatred that makes people sink deeper and deeper into forgetfulness. It is this illusion that we are all separate when we are not. The most evil people in the world are living their lives with their souls asleep. To feel like this must feel so NUMB!!!

Enigma: 'In every colour, there's the light, In every stone sleeps a crystal'.


Forgiveness. Yes, there is something very special about indeed

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ListensToTrees
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Posts: 3844
From: Infinity
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posted June 22, 2007 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
And if people could only realize the truth...this real Oneness which permeates all life....

Then there would be no desire for anyone to ever be evil to another ever again.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted June 22, 2007 11:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Mirandee,

It's nice to have someone to talk to about these things. I enjoyed reading your thoughts, and I hope I can answer a few questions here and make my own thoughts clear without getting too abstract or long-winded.

quote:
YES!!!!!! Very well expressed! And you have so well summed up my beliefs in all you said here. I will tease you as I like to do Fayte, what you expressed here in your writings is very much in alignment with Roman Catholic theology and doctrine. I am sure that thought is as horrifying to you as it is to Fayte. LOL However you both are more Christian than you realize and more Christian in fact than many professed Christians. Spiritually beautiful souls. Both of you. <3

Thank you, Mirandee, but I'd prefer to say that the Christians are more like me than they realize. I think I've always known how Christian I was, but, if I were to call myself a Christian, it would be in the sense that I call myself an American; which is to say that, although I am technically a native and citizen of this country, I really am more comfortable considering myself a citizen of the World. I belong to all countries and all religions. I believe I understand Christ's message fairly well, particularly on an intellectual level, and I have read, admired, and agreed with the spirit of the words of many of his disciples and apostles throughout history (Boethius, Origen, Abelard, Eckhart, Aquinas, Tolstoy, Chesterton, Tillich, Chardin, Lewis, Nouwen, Peale, to name a few). My thinking is especially close to the thinking of an Aquarian named Earnest Holmes, who interpreted Christianity from a particularly scientific, esoteric, and occult perspective.

But I also like Taoism, Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, Islam, Celtic Polytheism, Transcendentalism as Emerson expressed it, Native American Wisdom in general, and the philosophies and unsystemetized reflections of a great many unaffilliated individuals who wrote throughout history. I like people who write about various religions, too. I like Gandhi, who I know wrote at least one book about Jesus, and about how he fell in love with the Sermon on the Mount, yet still considered himself primarily a Hindu.

All terms being relative, I do not mind calling myself a Religious Person, even though I do not hold to a particular religion. For me, calling myself a Religious Person is like saying I am a Writer. It is my calling and my nature, and it is natural to me. But I am a certain type of Writer; I am eclectic, which means that I am not merely a poet, or an essayist, or an apohorist, or an author of mystery novels or romantic short stories. If I call myself a Christian, for me, is like being a writer of essays; yes, I love to write essays, and it is probably what I love to do best (if not what I do best), but, I also like to write poems, parables, aphorisms, letters and short stories, as well. It is all a part of me, and I am much greater than any of it. My soul is free, and needs vast expanses of space over which to spread its wings. In my soul there are many planets, to say nothing of mansions.

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."

- Giordano Bruno

(Bruno has been called "the first martyr for science".)

I do not claim to know who Jesus was, truly. I can only give an ear to the various theories, and hope that, someday, some way, the truth will be revealed to me, and I will not be harshly judged on account of my ignorance of one thing, my knowledge of a great many other things, or my general disposition towards a state of intellectual, emotional, and spiritual independence. At present, I have a provisional view of Jesus as a holy man, a great and ancient soul, who attained such a degree of mastership, that he was chosen by God to carry, within him, the Holy Spirit, or "Son" of God. I believe that this Spirit, which was a pure creative impulse directly from God, descended like a bolt, down through the Spiritual Hierarchies of Principles, Powers, Seraphim and Cherubim, through all Heavens, and all the Spirit Worlds Above, until it reached the man Jesus, who was fit to be a vessel of that Pure Light. Because he was the only vessel fit to hold God's Love, Power, and Truth, he was justified in alluding to himself as the Messiah, and the only Son of God (though, its true, he said "ye are all gods" and "children of the Father"). I believe that he was not fit to contain the entirety of God's Light until after the cruficixion. That was his last life on earth, and he had not entirely exhausted his karma. He had to live that last lifetime, and drink the last bitter dregs of his remaining karma. He did it, and he rose again in the flesh, just to let his disciples know that he (and God) had prevailed. Because he rose without passing through the womb, or through all the experiences of childhood and youth, he showed that he had overcome the Laws of Samsara (Saturn, Space/Time, the World), and the karmic cycle of rebirths.

Through him, God's Grace entered the world. That Grace is the Light, or Truth, of Love; and its many rays, as Jesus, and as others before him taught, are the eternal philosophical principles and ideals which have always radiated out from the heart of the religious experience of awakening, and always led us back toward the Unity of the One Light, which is God/Love/God's Love. It is nothing more dogmatic, and nothing more or less religious, than that.

The chissel of God always seeks the sharp places, the places of greatest resistance in us, and shaves them smooth. It seeks to wrest from us all that stands in the way of perceiving what is most essential to Him. His nature is Love, Truth, Being, and Bliss. He is all of these, and each of them alone, for none of them are truly alone; each contains the others, as God contains them all, and where awareness of even one of these is lacking, awareness of all the others is also lacking, and awareness of God is greatly lacking. We must allow Him to be Love, all of Love. We must allow Him to be Truth, all of Truth. We must allow Him to be Being, all of Being. We must allow Him to be Bliss, all of Bliss.

quote:
Why would there be any need for us to reincarnate and work out our own karma when Jesus took it all onto himself and did it for us?

Why would there be any need for us to incarnate at all, for that matter?

Here is what Jesus did for the world:

'Martyrs are spiritual heroes. Christ was the greatest martyr of our species;
through him has martyrdom become infinitely significant and holy.'
~ Novalis

Jesus paved a way where there was no way. In this sense, he brought light into the darkness of this world. He gave us the greatest ideal the world has yet conceived; ideal compassion; unconditional love. He gave his life, not only for his friends, but for his enemies. He did it for Love. This ideal is a Light to the whole world, and it cannot be denied. Beside this brilliant Light, all our sins, all our imperfections, are impossible to hide. We are humbled by the Light of such an ideal, but, because the ideal itself is Love, we are also exalted. We are loved for all that we are, more than we could ever be loved if we were merely perfect. "Now we see through a glass darkly", and struggle slowly, like roots through the muddy earth, - but then we shall see the Sun, and, climbing straighter than before, shall feel our strength, and see our reflections there beside us in the still waters, God's own image, green and true.

Jesus set an example. Before him, the western world was in darkness. He took as much of our sins upon him as any man could, even giving himself over to the tortures of crucifixion. But he did not, could not, take all the karma of the universe upon himself. He can show us the way, but it is up to us to follow him.

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

- Matt. 10:38

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

~ Philippians 2:12 (KJV)


quote:
How do you reconcile the belief in forgiveness and what you stated here regarding Jesus with your belief in reincarnation and the working out of our own karma and past lives, HSC?

Karma is not a punishment for guilt. That is the first thing to understand. The origin of karma, the origin of evil, is inscrutable. It is a pitch black mystery which can never be fathomed, and which can only be transcended by being ignored. In the tales of heroes, we hear how they tarried not among the harpies, but hurried past, without wasting a minute of time, or an ounce of strength. It is better to save one's strength for battling evil, than to exhaust one's nerve imagining it. There will be enough fights without picking them from the thin air. And no man has strength equal to the evil in the world. No man can look it in the eye for long and not go blind; it is enough to call evil to mind, in order to frighten ourselves, and begin to exhaust our strength. So, we do honor to God, when we respect the power of His adversary, and leave him be. Evil will find us soon enough, and we need not go looking for her. It is writtern, "there is enough trouble for the day. Let the troubles of the day be enough for the day."

So, I do not ponder on the origin of evil, seeing long ago that this is a black hole, a trap set by the devil, to lure the unsuspecting, the arrogant, and the morbidly curious. Instead, I take a purely scientific view of the existence of evil, or karma; science being unconcerned with ultimate origins, and modestly setting itself to studying only the evidence of things; - and I reserve the powers of my imagination for more enlightening objects.

The evil of this world is unanswerable, but it is self-evident and, one may assume, it is necessary. If we cannot explain it, at least we can keep from inventing imaginary crimes and manufacturing artificial guilts, to torment ourselves with. But, if we are innocent, does that mean God is deserving of blame? "God forbid!" Like evil, God Himself is inscrutable. We are free to blame Him, if we will, but we are also free to pee into the wind. I would recommend neither practice. We must praise God, because, not to praise God, would be an automatic surrender to the devil, and we would make ourselves enemies to the whole of Creation. "Let God be true, and every man a liar!" So, when it is asked, "Is God good?" Say, "Yes," not because there is a good reason for evil in the world, or because God loves us, or for any other reason. The most important reason we must approve of God is because He is God, and there is no other. We must find a way to praise Him. We must see that the error is in ourselves. If He is rough with us, we must become strong, so that His roughness is not so rough.

Karma acts as a foreign irritant upon our souls, as a grain of sand irritates the tender belly of a clam, and that which we call "good karma" is one of two things; first, it is the Innocence, which is the natural state of a healthy soul in the universe, before the introduction of the irritant; second, it is the Experience, which is the Pearl of a soul that has overcome adversity and become strong enough to ward off irritation, to turn adversity into opportunity, and to remain healthy even when there is sickness all around. This is a soul like Christ's was, that could affirm God and humankind, even in the midst of evil and imperfection.

It has been falsely taught that, through negative actions, we create bad karma, and through positive actions, we create good karma. But, really, those actions of ours which appear negative or positive are not the seeds, but the stems, of karma; they are not the ultimate source of the fruit which clings to them.

Karma is simply what happens when a relatively young soul is introduced into the realm of matter. Like a young bird pushed from its nest, the soul free-falls, struggles at first, fears for its life, and, suddenly, finds within itself the power to fly.

Karma is the measure of our weakness and our distance from God. As we approach ever nearer, and as our legs grow ever stronger, the journey becomes easier and more joyful with each passing day.

It is said that all the evil in this world is only a small grey cloud passing overhead on a sunny day. God has blessed all the worlds with Life, but His power is so great, so "awful", that we here in the material world are temporarily brutalized by the act. The material world, it is said, is at a great distance from God, but it is just a small part of our soul's journey. Many lifetimes we have walked and will walk the earth, but those are nothing compared to the eternal life we shall live in the realms of Spirit when, after many earth lives, we have "shuffled off this mortal coil". When we get beyond life in the world, there is still much to be learned, and much to be done, but evil never has the same power over us, and we serve God and His Will with great joy and single-mindedness of purpose. Such a condition may seem like "Heaven" to us here on earth, but it is only the beginning of another stage in our great movement towards God. Our capacity for Love, Truth, Authority, and Bliss is doubled, squared, cubed, etc., ad infinitum. There is no end to the Greatness of God, and Heaven is not a stasis, but a perpetually increasing Intimacy with God! As above, so below.

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MysticMelody
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From:
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posted June 23, 2007 12:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message


I'm so in love with your writing.
And your thoughts


So... who wants a t-shirt?

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ListensToTrees
Knowflake

Posts: 3844
From: Infinity
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posted June 23, 2007 03:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 7178
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted June 23, 2007 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message

YAY!!!!

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Mirandee
Knowflake

Posts: 4812
From: South of the Thumb - Taurus, Pisces, Cancer
Registered: Sep 2004

posted June 23, 2007 11:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mirandee     Edit/Delete Message
I also think it is nice having someone to talk to about these things, HSC. Thank you for sharing your heartfelt thoughts with me.

I have read your post but want to give it the time it deserves to digest and think about before responding.

This is a busy weekend as Sunday is my grandson, Brody's, 3rd birthday and we are busy getting things ready for his party. So I am kind of rushed. I respect your thoughts too much to give you a rushed reply. I think it deserves better than that. I think you deserve better than that.

LTT once again, as I replied on the other thread to your post, very well expressed and I like what you said in your post about forgiveness.

I like very much to talk with others on a soul to soul basis. I think that when we do that we are all posting from the heart.

For that reason I feel it is disrespectful of all concerned here to attempt to turn it into a "t-shirt" contest. We are giving our thoughts, speaking of our beliefs and that is not a contest. If it turns into that then I won't bother to reply. I will walk away from it because I feel that is disrespectful to all concerned, including HSC who gave a lot of thought to his post.

When people speak together of spiritual matters I do feel it is soul to soul. In that moment there is unity, even if we may not see eye to eye in our beliefs. It's a unity of souls. I feel that those that participate in spiritual discussions regarding their thoughts and beliefs do touch souls. To attempt to turn it into a "one up manship" type of contest singling out just one person's posts causes division - disunity. Then I don't care to discuss it any longer because I don't feel that soul connection any longer.

It just turns into another who is right and who is wrong type of discussion. When it becomes a win/lose situation we all lose.

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MysticMelody
Moderator

Posts: 3521
From:
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posted June 24, 2007 01:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
The thing is, I WASN'T TRYING TO BE DISRESPECTFUL and I think YOUR comments to me were disrespectful. What he wrote blew me away, I thought you were feeling the magic too. I felt YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THE MAGIC.

I was just trying to be friendly to everyone on the thread while I was applauding and thanking Steve.

I just don't know what to say to you, but if it is actually your intention NOT to start fights at LL, then you will just have to get used to or overlook what you don't like about my style.

I have been chatting to Steve in exactly the same way for a year and a half and I don't see why I should have to stay off of his threads, or change my style of chatting, just to suit you because you decided to stop posting in Global Unity and begin posting regularly here instead. I am not doing anything wrong and I am not trying to bother YOU. I wasn't trying to break up your connection, I was celebrating that it WAS a connection. I have tried many times to be friendly to you. Just let me be myself in peace.

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