posted November 02, 2008 01:35 PM            

What in a chart would show someone who prone to playing the victim or a tendency towards passive aggression (covert attack)
Heavy Neptune signatures perhaps?

What in the chart would show assertiveness & courage?
Prominent Mars?

posted November 02, 2008 02:02 PM            

Maybe something with both Mars and Neptune squaring...or Mars and Moon??

posted November 02, 2008 02:41 PM            

I know someone else with a Neptune Apexed T-Square BUT the same does not apply. The Opposition there involves the Sun and Mars ~ cancelling out the passive aggression.

IMO Sun/Mars is the big one for assertiveness and potentially, courage.

For confrontational any of Sun/Mars, Mars/Ascendant, Mars/Nodes and Mars/Mercury.

posted November 02, 2008 02:52 PM            

Courage and assertiveness - Aries comes to mind but assertiveness is essentially present in all Cardinal signs.

posted November 02, 2008 02:55 PM            

As a famous example, how about this example of non-victim mentality:

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Mars CNJ Nodes TRINE Saturn

Sun CNJ Pluto

Like anything free will and so on, hard-nosed can become bully if frustrated. Mars, Saturn and Pluto can be tough, they might be ruthless as well.

posted November 02, 2008 03:04 PM            

I also have Mars trine Pluto and as you know, Mars is my chart ruler. It has helped me a lot, it certainly is the strongest part of my chart I feel, gives me the steel will to get through. I'm yet to analyse properly the Mars semi-square Saturn except to say that it makes me passive-aggressive.

posted November 03, 2008 01:51 AM            

Is that a function of cowardice?

Is it a matter of not wanting to hurt the feelings of the one they would confront?

Is it a matter of controlling the intensity of what would otherwise be an explosive confrontation?

I think it could be any of these things, so you'd have to answer for any of these possibilities.

_____________________________

Similarly, assertiveness could originate in various aspects.

Is it a matter of assertiveness?

Is it a matter of knowledge and confidence?

Is it a matter of stupidity (not knowing any better to be any other way)?

posted November 03, 2008 09:23 AM            

Assertiveness has little to with stupidity, its knowing your rights, stating your rights & trying to do so in a way that will not effect others in a negative way. You're basically trying to create a "win-win" situation.

Passive aggression is when a person uses covert means to sabotage & hurt others.

Example: saying something really hurtful using the phrase "some people" while the object of the intended abuse is in earshot. Sarcasm with the intent to hurt/humiliate others is also passive aggression.

Controlling (not suppressing)the intensity of an explosive situation would not be passive aggression that sounds more like assertiveness.

posted November 03, 2008 02:41 PM            

In terms of who is viewed as passive aggressive, I would definitely say that those who don't stir personal ire (i.e. hurt people's feelings) would be amongst those that could garner that label, because such people are said not to express anger openly, which is a characteristic of passive aggressive behavior. I'm addressing one of the reasons one might not express anger openly: the result of hurt feelings.

Deliverance,

Assertiveness is a willingness for action. It doesn't necessarily indicate a presense of those other traits you ascribe to it. For example, an armed robber is assertive in robbing the bank or store or whatever. A thief is not trying to create a "win-win" situation, nor is a thief trying to be assertive in a way that will not affect others in a negative way. Heck the thief might even be assertive to the point of killing the entity he or she is robbing. Hence, the assertiveness is not a guarantee for intelligence. Not at all.

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Example: saying something really hurtful using the phrase "some people" while the object of the intended abuse is in earshot. Sarcasm with the intent to hurt/humiliate others is also passive aggression.

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Even though the person isn't speaking directly to his/her target, I would say that this is an example of overt aggression, because if the target is in earshot he or she may as well be saying whatever it is to that person's face. The person is certainly not showing any sign of secretive undermining of the target.

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Controlling (not suppressing)the intensity of an explosive situation would not be passive aggression that sounds more like assertiveness.

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posted November 03, 2008 11:43 PM            

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For example, an armed robber is assertive in robbing the bank or store or whatever. A thief is not trying to create a "win-win" situation, nor is a thief trying to be assertive in a way that will not affect others in a negative way. Heck the thief might even be assertive to the point of killing the entity he or she is robbing. Hence, the assertiveness is not a guarantee for intelligence. Not at all.

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If were talking about behavioural styles the robber has acted in an aggressive manner because he’s killed the victim, which of course is the ultimate act of aggression.

I didn’t say assertiveness & intelligence were exclusive to each other, I do however, think a lot of people have to consciously work at being assertive.

quote:

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Even though the person isn't speaking directly to his/her target, I would say that this is an example of overt aggression, because if the target is in earshot he or she may as well be saying whatever it is to that person's face. The person is certainly not showing any sign of secretive undermining of the target.

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The example I gave IS passive aggression because the act has been verbalised in a manner where the victim can’t prove they are being attacked, the aggressor is aware of this – like I said they are directing the comment to the person, but not referring to them eg – “some people are ****s” . the fact that the person has used the term “some people” instead of the persons name coupled with the fact they are talking to others about them is passive aggression, it passive because its not addressing the victim – the speach is aggressive but the delivery is covert.

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That goes back to a desire not to maim the relationship through being overly intense. Some people might view the person not taking their anger directly out as passive aggressive while the angry person views it as simply sparing the person from a known quantity.

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posted November 04, 2008 11:59 AM            

Deliverance, may only point of contention with your response to my post would be the fact that the target person could indeed prove that they were being attacked. The target person heard it for one, and obviously the attacker had an audience who presumably knows that the speaker is referring to the target (and if not then the attacker is really saving the target from embarrassment or whatever).

posted November 04, 2008 05:47 PM            

If I were to say in front of a group of people Oh I saw this guy wearing green shoes & he was a real banana.

You have no proof that I was referring to you, I could be talking about a fella I saw the day before. There are witnesses who could state I was slagging off a man with green shoes - but no-one could confirm I was talking about you.

posted November 04, 2008 06:51 PM            

I'm confident (happy in my own skin) but I'm very seldom aggressive at all, passively or overtly. The only times I get aggressive are when I feel directly attacked, or when I'm defending someone else (or a group of people) who was.

Once I'm in aggressive mode - the style of the aggression (passive or overt) is completely dependent on what I believe would hurt them most. I can go either way, depending on the situation and the person (attacker) I am dealing with.

Other than that, there have been times in my life, when I felt the reality or truth of a situation is going unspoken. In this case I can become very blunt and spell things out, in a way that most people would find harsh. This is probably the only scenario in which I can become quite confrontational.