posted October 26, 2004 04:04 PM              

from 'aspects in astrology: a guide to understanding planetary relationships in the horoscope' by sue tompkins -

"the quintile is an aspect of 72 degrees and the biquintile 144 degrees. it is possible in harmonic theory to continue dividing the circle by multiples of 5, to arrive at the vigintile (18 degrees), the decile (36 degrees), and the tredecile (108 degrees). only the very tightest orbs should be employed when interpreting these aspects.

david hamblin has isolated and promoted the notion of 'style' as being descriptive of the quintile aspect, so that a quintile will say something not only about an individual's personal style but also about the style and technical quality of their creative work. with respect to fiveness, leonard bosnan says:

'five, according to its root meaning, is the number of harvesting...the number five represents that cosmic process during which matter is qualified, separated into kinds, and arranged -- like the harvest for use.'

the description of fiveness sounds very much to me like virgo, which is ruled by mercury, the planet that a numerologist would normally attribute to the number 5. in fact tentatively linking the ideas associated with mercury to the quintile series is a good way of beginning to gain some understanding of this aspect.

the relationship between the mind and the quintile series has long been made, which also sounds very mercurial. more precisely, john addey links this aspect with the idea of imposing one's mind on the world.

if quintiles describe style, perhaps we can go one step further and say that a quintile aspect will describe how we might communicate or give form to our mental processes either orally, through the written word or through the use of our hands. hamlin also points out that the quintile series is strongly emphasized in the charts of people who are preoccupied with making, forming, linking and arranging things.

in his book 'harmonics in astrology', john addey suggests that the quintile series also describes the kind of art a person is drawn to. he also links this series with the urge to power, 'the prelude of all creation, the desire to dominate some kind of material'. knowledge is power, as is the idea that gives birth to some kind of creation. as addey says:

'every artist envisages an idea or ideal or formal principle and, wishing to express it, asks himself how he can make it a manifest reality.'

bill tierney says that quintiles 'seem to describe the potential of abilities normally considered exceptional or gifted, and abilities that are not necessarily developed or conditioned by experiences in the external environment'."

i have one quintile, venus-jupiter. i'm not sure yet how this fits into my art, but i do know i love making things, i love creating. i'm quite fond of saying my art (which involves book-making, paper-making, assemblage a la joseph cornell and collage) is really just an exercise in my OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). my collages, especially, are really intricate and are quite time-consuming, but i don't mind because it's cathartic.

anyway, i thought this might be interesting. i recommend that book, 'aspects in astrology' - it's a good one.

posted October 26, 2004 05:06 PM              

thought you misght be interested to know this: you share that mercury-neptune quintile with jane austen (this book mentions her quite a bit). it says that aspect is ideal for imaginative thinking and creative writing.

posted October 26, 2004 06:12 PM              

Here's ones I've found in my chart (there seems a lot, but some are probably not too significant. I even found some with other asteriods and my vertex LOL! But these are ll the "big" ones and within a 3 degree orb - very tight!) -

quintiles (72 degrees):

Jupiter-ASC (73 degrees)
Neptune-ASC (75 degrees)
Neptune-NN (74 degrees)
Sun-Chiron (71 degrees)
Moon-Saturn (69 degrees)
Moon-Venus (74 degrees)

biquintiles (144 degrees):

Jupiter-Chiron (145 degrees)
Neptune-Chiron (142 degrees)

vigintiles (18 degrees):

Sun-Venus (20 degrees)

decile (36 degrees):

Moon-NN (35 degrees)
Moon-Mars (33 degrees)

tredecile (108 degrees):

Pluto-Mercury (110 degrees)
Sun-Uranus (106 degrees)
Moon-Neptune (109 degrees)

posted October 28, 2004 10:17 AM              

those quintiles are impressive! i found little interpretations for you, though you may already know this stuff...

Moon quintile Venus: Responding to beauty of form and structure; adopting a graceful, sensitive and attractive style.

Moon quintile Saturn: Adopting a style which involves strict control of feelings; adopting a 'hard' attitude to the world, with deliberate lack of sensitivity; dry humour; building defensive structures against the environment.

Jupiter quintile Ascendant / Descendant: Behaviours involving risk-taking; grand and impressive gestures; exhibitionism; absence of inhibition.

Neptune quintile Ascendant / Descendant: Behaviours involving closeness to others, sympathetic gestures, submergence of one's individuality.

interesting - makes for a lot of creativity, i'd imagine...i tried finding examples of who else shares these aspects (i don't know why, but i'm always fascinated to know that kind of information), but i couldn't find anything.

the only other interesting minor aspects i have besides venus quintile jupiter is 4 quindeciles (seemingly the aspect of obsession-compulsion: sun-uranus, sun-AC, mercury-pluot, saturn-neptune), and sun novile venus.

you know, carl jung had a splay chart. he had 5 distinct groups, too. (i read that on bob marks' site, i'm not really just a walking repository of astrological trivia.) i'm not totally certain, but i think i have a locomotive chart, myself.

posted October 28, 2004 11:38 AM              

I get very detail oriented but not obsessive, I get distracted by my Gemini Mercury too much.
I stick to plain simple working areas, with no distractions, or colours at first.

Right now I am looking at a piece of antique embroidered fabric and I want to stretch it, create a faux canvas and hang it to see if anyone can tell what it is.

Many times I am just as obsessed to see if anyone can see the detail in my work, as I am in creating it. I agree with the power principle too, if you disturb people you gain power.

There is a lot of power in changing someone's reality in a room, with black walls, and white paintings, even just for a moment.
Before movies there were just pictures on walls,

posted October 28, 2004 11:50 AM              

The traits listed for the Jupiter and Neptune quitiles, I think for me it's somewhere in between or a blending/mixing of those too lists, without being too extreme either way. That would make sense sense 1) Jupiter and Neptune are conjunct and thus always acts togethr in my chart and 2) are opposed Venus/Saturn so it's senstive and receptive but kept in check by Saturn. The Jupiter-ASC thing is funny because I tend to *attract* exhibitionist types OR people who see me as daring or risk-taking.

I think I cans ee much of those traits of those aspects infused in my creative style. I care very much about creating "beautiful" things, and so I pay a lot of attention to form and a sense of gracefulness (I also hate art that lacks grace - I see it as a major flaw). I hate schmaltzy stuff, LOL, and avoid creating things that are sentimental (which is another major flaw in my eyes), and I like using subtle or dry humor in my work. I also tend to choose topics that express a sense that reality's harsh. I wouldn't classify what I do as risk-taking, but I do tend to not to heed others advice. LOL. There is definitely a kind of exhibitionist slant to my work, although it's not that obvious - I tend to show more than prefer people what to see (even though, often they don't get what they are seeing - a problem with being heavily influenced by Uranus in other ways ) but my stuff rally tries to lean toward subtly - I'm not a shock artist by any stretch, but I do "put stuff out there" in my own way. And interetingly, several of my lyrics and poems do touch on the idea or imagery of submergence/loss of myself or a sense of profound intimacy with another person. I don't think sympathy is really the best word for me or my art, but certainly empathy would be.

BTW Chrissy, you can have a chart that's a cross between to chart patterns, so perhaps you have a loco-splay. LOL> In such cases the person would dispaly a combination of traits of those two patterns.

posted October 28, 2004 01:07 PM              

the last piece i made used a discarded piece of bathroom or kitchen tile that i found that was thick and buttery (in a weird kind of way). i spray glued discarded laser printer paper (i am obsessed with using scraps, with finding a usefulness for something that has been discarded - i have a 6th house sun, too) from work (i work as a graphic designer) on top of the tile. then i spray glued bits and pieces of paper that are meaningful or that i find, and i use an exacto knife to cut into that, and i create shapes - usually female-related, something curvy and feminine, but abstract, too, in a matisse kind of way.

i love textiles! i have a couple books on textiles i love to gaze at sometimes for ideas on compositions. the intricacy appeals to me.

gemini nymph, you are someone i can really relate to. first off, i know we both have neurological disorders. secondly, i know you're moon's in pisces, and that's my sun. thirdly, i have a ton of air (specifically) influences in my chart...my ac conjunct my uranus exactly, my venus is in aquarius and that's my ruling planet because my ascendant is in libra, my nn is in aquarius, my moon and my mars are placed in the 3rd house, and my sun/moon midpoint is in aquarius.

oh, and my venus is square saturn in an exact aspect - so i have this hard saturnian approach to love, too!

so, when you to say you avoid sentimentality and don't like things that are schmaltzy - i feel the same way! i turn my nose up at sickly sweet crap. i can understand detesting hallmarky stuff. and with my venus being in aquarius, when it comes to love, i hate it when a guy is all over me. i hate that. it turns me off quicker than a cold shower would.

ya know, i know they're minor aspects but i saw on the same site i copied your quintile interps from that the sun novile venus aspect which i have can indicate a love of beauty and grace in art and style. or something like that. and i believe the vigintile aspect is related to the novile aspect, is it not (i could be wrong, however)? and you have sun vigintile venus. so i dunno, that could be something. mostly i attribute my love of beauty and grace and stuff like that (especially in art - i like my art graceful, even if i do make art out of trash) to my libra ascendant (my ac trines my venus).

those minor aspects are interesting me at the moment, though...so i just thought you might find that interesting.

anyhoo, whew, i'm feeling weirdly energetic today. i think it's either the eclipse, or i noticed on astro dot com that mars is in my 1st house. look out!

-c

posted October 28, 2004 01:12 PM              

dammit, i meant YOUR moon's in pisces (what was i thinking?!) and also, i meant specifically aquarius.

posted October 28, 2004 04:34 PM              

"...and i believe the vigintile aspect is related to the novile aspect, is it not (i could be wrong, however)?"

LOL, I'm inclined to say yes, as most everything is related one way or the other in astrology But how closely or overlapping I honestly don't know off the top of my head. Hang on a sec...

OK, here's a table of aspects that is sure to give you a headache: http://groups.msn.com/horoscopeschat/aspects2.msnw They are using exceptionally tight orbs, but I think there's more give than that. That's the reason way I use 3 degrees as past that, you're really in another aspect for sure. And besides when you start defining aspects with orbs that include odd decimal points, you're getting too anal.

Anyhow, a novile is 40 degress, so being that close to a decile (36 degrees), there's going to be overlap for sure. For example, if you have an aspect that's 38 degrees: which is it? If you go by that table's superanal orbs, it'd be neither, but we all know that in astrology things are never that neat. Various things could play into this, like what planets are in aspects, they size, their distance, rate of movement, etc and also the overall "feel" of a chart and distinctive patterms that stand out. It could be either, or or both. So you have to go with you intuition rather than splitting hairs in such a OCD fashion, methinks. So I'd say yeah, they're related by being so close together degree-wise, and they will likely have a lot of overlap and less distinction between them than bigger aspects.

By the way, I'm sure my Sun-Venus aspect is significant somewhow, as it straddles my MC, 10 degrees to either side.

Anyhow, would you by chance have on hand some more quintile intepretation? I was looking at singer-songwriter Elliot Smith's chart and found this:

*Venus 70 degrees from Pluto
*Sun 74 degrees from ASC
and also *Sun quintile Moon, because while his moon is actually 76.5 from his Sun, it is tightly conjunct his ASC by a mere 1.25 degrees (see, I can do decimals too! LOL) - being next to a strong angle is going to pull it toward it, so the moon may act "closer" to the Sun than if it weren't next to an angle. So I'm betting that the quintile might apply to this exception.

posted October 28, 2004 05:05 PM              

i love elliot smith. my co-worker from last year who very passionately moved up to canada to be with a boy she met on-line in a spur-of-the-moment decision turned me on to him. gosh, i miss her. she was like 4 foot ten inches and weighed 85 pounds (the most petite 20-something i ever saw), 6 or 7 years younger than me, and we looked like mutt and jeff walking around together (im tall), but she was great. we were both saddened to hear of his death.

anyhoo, the stuff i dug up was this:

Sun quintile Moon: Living one's life in an orderly, patterned way; preoccupied with style, and with self-image; seemingly stylized and artificial behaviour; a creature of habit.

Venus quintile Pluto: Finding stylized ways of expressing a love of dedication and single-mindedness; having value-systems that emphasize the single-minded pursuit of a goal; able to attract others by one's dedication and ruthlessness in pushing one's abilities to the limit; loving consistent and uncompromising forms in art.

Sun quintile Ascendant / Descendant: The person needs to display himself - his true nature - to the world through his style, and so this will decrease his ability to develop styles and mannerisms whose purpose is to deceive or to hide the self.

the venus-pluto aspect seems like it might be pretty intense! what signs are involved? id imagine scorpio or some other intense sign...

fascinating.

posted October 28, 2004 06:22 PM              

It looks very much like nature made this, reminds me of an indian rug.
He uses symbols from every culture, such as the tree of life. There is something new and familiar about his work, rich but unique.

Maybe you love textiles because in many countries, textiles are what artists use, not canvas.
So you are looking at fine art, with repeating themes from the past thousand years.

In India they use cutouts in fabric and rich embroidery, in a method that is handed down through certain families.

I have painted a textile design on canvas, especially middle eastern, or indian design.
Repeating a style or a theme is not a waste of time, its' keeping a technique alive.

I call my house the warehouse because it's always industrial, I also use scraps.
Warhol called his studio the factory.

Teaching is another thing I love to do,

posted October 28, 2004 08:22 PM              

Some people fuss over this, but I have seen a lot of evidence that this does happen. Primarily with conjunctions with planets, angles and *sometimes* asteriods though, and I'm careful about applying this, because you can get carried away. I only do if there's very good reason to do so. Of course the tighter the conjucntion, more of a pull: like with Elliott's Moon being only two degrees from the ASC is very tight fro a conjunction and so the ASC has more pull on the Moon's energy.

And also, it's good to keep in mind that not every spot on the chart is of equal intensity, influence and sensitivity. Angles, cusps, midpionts and other calculated spots represents areas in our chart that have stronger or unique influence. Angles are the strongest spots on the chart that aren't planets, so it's good to look at things in relation to that influence.

And the thing about Venus is something that being debated still, but seems to panned out in practice. Here's an article about Venus placement in relation to the Sun, although it's not an easy read : http://www.khaldea.com/planets/venus_type.shtml

Here's Elliott's chart: http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?rs=3&btyp=w2gw&&cid=028fileTX7Ci0-u1095796646

When I first looked it, I was genuinely stumped, which does happen sometimes. LOL. Anyhow, there are some very telling things there, but you have to dig for them, keeping in mind their context. He wasn't a typical Leo - that Taurus moon dominated him to an extreme, and from what I have been able to discern from what's available about him, it worked as both a 1st house and 12th influence. And his Venus was in Cancer - he apparently was a very tender soul who cared deeply, even painfully, for others.

Anyhow, let's see:

"Sun quintile Moon: Living one's life in an orderly, patterned way; preoccupied with style, and with self-image; seemingly stylized and artificial behaviour; a creature of habit."

I don't know how well this would fit Elliott, I am perhaps stretching too much with that orb. However, he certainly didn't live in an orderly pattern, as attested by many. But all the same, he was definitely a creature of habit, which was one of the reasons his addictions were so severe. He was also preoccupied with his self-image, as he was very concerned that he presented himself in a genuine way - he detested the rock n roll stereotype which he was always careful to avoid. I think that's enough for a "hit," yes?

"Venus quintile Pluto: Finding stylized ways of expressing a love of dedication and single-mindedness; having value-systems that emphasize the single-minded pursuit of a goal; able to attract others by one's dedication and ruthlessness in pushing one's abilities to the limit; loving consistent and uncompromising forms in art."

Would expressing love in song be considered stylized? Yeah definitely. Elliott often wrote songs for actual people he cared deeply about. He was very single-minded about being a "real" artist too, and his value system certainly reflected that. And I think since he abhorred fakery and posturing, and adhered fiercely to an uncompromising honesty and individuality in his art, AND was drawn to others who felt and did the same, I think that last bit certainly applies to him.

"Sun quintile Ascendant / Descendant: The person needs to display himself - his true nature - to the world through his style, and so this will decrease his ability to develop styles and mannerisms whose purpose is to deceive or to hide the self."

Ahh, I think this probably is right on: many noted that Elliott was strangely incapable of or unwilling to conceal himself and had difficulty with the posturing that many others do to get by in life. It seems, especially when you like at his work, that this tendency toward self-revelation was a genuine need for him, what he had to do in this life. It also seems logical to deduce that this vu;nerablitiy was also a great source of much of his pain, confusion and inner conflict.

posted October 29, 2004 10:30 AM              

i glanced at elliot's chart, and (i'm sure you've already noticed these things) his pluto in the 5th house of creative expression (amongst other things) stuck out to me. and his sun square saturn. wow, and his nn is in pisces. he probably struggled with his feelings & emotions. his chart looks a little like mine, with regards to the planets being mostly in the lower half of the chart (the only planets i have in the upper half are saturn in 8th, pluto & uranus in 12th), which means a more private and introspective personality, correct?

natasha, i haven't thought much about cutting my collage shapes out. that's a good idea...i like the idea of maybe cutting them out and then going from there (finding some other material to paste them onto and then painting over that and then...?). it's like taking it one step further. this is the piece i completed before the last one (the one i sent to my friend in germany for his birthday...the bathroom tile piece): http://www.brothersamateur.org/proto/art/collage04.jpg
i love things that are hidden or layered, so i like the idea of painting over the shapes, too. i'm also interested in making books, perhaps utilizing my collage work. i want to make my own paper for this, so right now im in the process of my collecting dryer lint. it's blue and gray and fuzzy, and it's a part of me. somehow i'm going to mesh it out, soak it, and use screens to create paper.

yes, textiles are fascinating to me because they're art. they're art objects which sometimes have a *use*, or a function, which appeals greatly to me.

thanks for the inspirational ideas...this is a good time for me, too, because mars is in my 1st house, so i've been feeling weirdly energetic. i want to get to work on a new piece. my boss's husband brought back some beautiful torn hand painted paper from mexico related to the day of the dead stuff from down there. there's skulls and other shapes painted on it. he gave it to me, and i've been meaning to make something with it.

sincerely,
c

posted October 29, 2004 12:14 PM              

"i've read that planetary bodies exchange energies, and when a planetary body aspects an angle or point, the angle or point *receives* all the energy. so...is it like, ok to compare my sun/moon midpoint to another's vertex or part of fortune?"

I'll try to touch on both questions with this, although as a disclaimer, let me say that it's a multifaceted issue that's not easily exhausted with brief answers .

Anyhow, chrissy, that is a good way to look at angle or points: they generally are receptors. But they don't simply recieve - they receive, transform and direct energy in a particular and distinct way - which is why they are named and classed differently. If there wasn't anything disctintive in how each point recieves energy, then we wouldn't bother at all with angles, houses or other points. But fundamentally, the same logic that says Mars acts in a certain way in the 1st house as opposed to the 6th house because each house represents a point on your chart in influences energy in a certain way, also applies to all calculated points, with various differentiations between how they affect energy and how significantly. Angles, houses and points on a chart don't really emit energy - they're not "bodies" like planets and asteroids, just points in space and time. But both space and time influence the direction, "mood" and action of energy all the same.

Also, angles and points don't necessarily recieve and thus tranform *all* the energy - it depends on the aspect. A tight square will drain off some energy of a planet, but a very tight conjunction will recieve a much larger portion of the energy. Even though these points receive the energy, they don't make it disappear - they simply relocate, focus or draw that energy to that spot in the chart and transform it. Usually, energy taken in by points needs to be acted upon to manifest, which is why the ASC and DESC are especially transforming, because these are the two points in our chart that get acted upon the most, by our own actions and interactions (ASC) or by others' actions (DESC). Houses are also especially influenctial because your planets reside there, so that is a constant infleucne on your planets' energies.

Comparison in either natal or synastry should focus *around* the Planets and how they relate to sensitive points, because planets are the primary emitter of energy that these points are receptive of. Make sense? Asteriods and planetoids would come in next, as they too emit energy, but are smaller and further away so their energy isn't strong an influence.

With sensitive points, like with other aspects, the tighter the conjunction the more precise and intense the infleunce. Think of it like a bull's eye that your palnet's energy is aiming for. So if your moon is 2 dergees from your ASC, that lunar energy is more "on target" and thus more infleunced by that angle than if it's 12 degrees away.

Here are a couple things to keep in mind:

1. Look at a chart as a performance drama. Angles and houses set the stage and scenery upon which the actors (Planets and lesser bodies - think of them as main characters and supporting cast) will act out the drama. Other sensitive points - midpoints, vertexs, nodes, Arabic parts, Black Moon Lilith, and so forth - are like various props in the play, that the actors use to define their characters. Aspects are like the dialogue and cues that direct the actors on the stage. Hope that helps you "visualize" this.

2. Now, if you have sensitive points in conjunction - like me, I have my NN and vertex 2 degrees apart in Aqua in the 5th - that means this is a doubly sensitive point, as the points act together. Also, if you have your NN or a midpoint (and other point) conjunct an angle, that also is very significant. Other than conjucntions, I don't worry about aspects between angles and points really, unless it appears that, say, a trine between ASC and NN is creating a certains sensitivity in the chart (this is not too uncommon with NN to angle aspects, but I don't think I've seen it with other points). However, with conjunction of points, you don't have to fuss too anally over degree orbs - if you have points in the same sign or same house, they will act together within that sign or house, most likely.

In synsatry, I don't think there's much reason to look beyond close conjunctions of most of these points. Because synastry deals with relationships, I would hazard to say that conjucntion of one person's angles, nodes or midpoints with another's points would be the most significant, as these could create sensitive points common to both to you in which there's a certain mirroring going on - like both of you would react to the same way to energy acting about that point. Beyond that, I'm thinking you might be stretching it.

Now angle to angle comparison is a little different: in synastry, comparison of angles (and thus also houses) is apparently very significant, but honestly, there just isn't much literature on this to my knowledge. However, I've read that good contacts between angles often help form solid and complimentary relationships, which makes sense - even though angles are primarily receptors, they play a big role in our overall dynamic and how we respond to and recieve other people's dynamics. So it's seems we would be more successful with someone with a complimentary or compatible dymanic themselves. This would explain why you do find sometimes synastry charts of successful relationships that don't seem too hopeful or promising with planets aspects alone, but they have good planet-to-angle/house contacts between them.

posted October 29, 2004 01:01 PM              

and thank you, that clears a LOT up. now the 58 page book i'm working on comparing my stuff to my friend/lover's (ugh, i hate labels, i never know just WHAT to call him - sometimes i'd like to just call him 'my ***** ') will be modified accordingly. first off, i'm comparing my sun through pluto and sun ruler through pluto ruler...i'm also including the sun/moon midpoint, the venus/mars midpoint, the NN/SN (btw, my nn is in aquarius in the 5th house too!), chiron, juno, ceres, vesta, lilith, eros, psyche, the vertex, anti-vertex, east point, part of fortune, part of marriage, and the 4 angles. i'm up to the part where i'm comparing my s/m mdpt & v/m mdpt to all of his stuff. so i'll only look for conjunctions primarily, and i'll probably include the other major ptolemaic aspects (opposition, trine, sextile and square) when i compare to his angles/points just for the record. of course, this means i'll need to go back and modify my list, for the minor aspects i've already recorded between his angles/points & my planets or planetary rulers. the conjunctions are what i'll look for primarily. i might go ahead and include oppositions if i find them.

when i'm done with all this, i'll probably post some of the charts i've designed on the net in pdf format, and i'll post the link here for others. it's just signs/degrees/houses stuff. and i have forms with blanks i've designed for comparing sun to _______ (planet, planet ruler, asteroid, point, angle) which i could post, too. when printed out they could be filled out. and charts, i've made a few charts (inwardly i'm laughing - i've made MORE than a few charts).

anyways, thank you thank you thank you!

posted October 29, 2004 01:06 PM              

Anyhow, enough about calculated points - let's talk more about dear Elliott:

"i glanced at elliot's chart, and (i'm sure you've already noticed these things) his pluto in the 5th house of creative expression (amongst other things) stuck out to me. and his sun square saturn. wow, and his nn is in pisces. he probably struggled with his feelings & emotions. his chart looks a little like mine, with regards to the planets being mostly in the lower half of the chart (the only planets i have in the upper half are saturn in 8th, pluto & uranus in 12th), which means a more private and introspective personality, correct?"

There's a lot going on with Elliott's chart, but two BIG themes definitely stand out: 1) profound, intense, overflowing creativity and 2) profound, intense, overflowing inner conflict. Because of the aspect to the 12th house planets, a lot of that lower hemisphere energy was traveling over there, and this seems to be partially why Elliott struggled the way he did emotionally and psychologically. He was deeply introspective: dominant Taurus moon, plus other aspects (in particular, Cancer Venus) meant he was primarily an introspective, very sensitive and even brooding type. His mother said he showed a "blue streak" from a very early age. He struggled with depression, self-loathing, and feelings of inadequency, but also was deply caring about others - friends say he would be more concerned about his friends problems, even though he himself was in a lot of pain. He was known to overcompensate for others' sake, often doing things to help others or "make up" for things his friends failed or were unable to do, like leaving $100 to cover a restuarant bill if his friends didn't have enough to pay for themselves.

And private yes, but there's speculation among those close to him about Elliott's mindset that which seems to coincide with that 12th house activity: he seemed to keep things to himself mostly because he was confused by them, and most of his pain seemed vague and mysterious to him as he experience it of recalled it, even when he knew the source.

The 12th nebulousness of his inner feelings and pain, combined with them being so close to breaking the surface (moon conjunct ASC) seemed to make it easy for him to tranform them creativity (Pluto, 5th) into music very successfully. It may have been the only way he felt he could use that energy productively. Much of his actions, as his career progressed and his life detoriated, suggests that it was, as when he wasn't focusing on expressing himself in music, he was clinging to extreme and often self-sabotaging philosophies, pursuing his addictions, or alienating or withdrawing from his friends (whom he nonethteless cared about very much). In other words, if he wasn't creating, he was self-destructing - this suggests Pluto had a very significant and severe influence in his chart. There seems few people who really knew what was going on with him in the last few years of his life, as he had withdrawn so much for his friends. This kind of "loner" behavior is typical of extreme Pluto influence as well. Also Pluto energy is extreme in it is either/or, not really both. that means it's either constructive or destructive. Not surprisingly, as Elliot's detoriated, he became less and less prolific (he had been an astounishly prolific songwriter at the beginning of his career), so by the end he had gone from ver productive yearly cycle of ablum-tour-album-tour, to wallowing for three years, too frail to tour and struggling to get started on his last album.

Other thigns that stand out are his Saturn, Mars and Neptune aspects with other planets: a strong sense of responsiblity, justice and prinicples, but also a lot of complex, multilayered guilt; a conflicted sense of ambition and a strange perverted narcissism; a sort of anti-hero persona and champion for the underdog; and deeply probing and revelatory style of creativity all seemd to deeply mark Elliott too.

posted October 29, 2004 01:42 PM              

Afterall that yammering about Elliott, I forget to point out something very significant in his chart that I had meant mention, because this is such an excellant example of it: his Taurus moon and Cancer Venus are in mutual reception. This is a biggie. The moon is in Venus's sign; Venus is in the moon's sign. This creates a greater diginity for both these planets, making them that much more influential. While his moon is more dominant than his Venus due to be on the ASC, this generous lunar-Venusian influence explains why he wasn't the typical Leo, but much more of a sympathic, caring, sensitive, intuitive, introspective and shy individual, which Elliott apparently was.

posted October 29, 2004 02:14 PM              

Thank you.

posted October 29, 2004 02:21 PM              

i want to inspect his chart later (crap, it's friday, isn't it? i won't be able to do it tonight) for quindeciles. i have been all about the quindeciles lately. i have like a jillion of them. i wish there was more info about it, though. i only have the one book. i think this aspect is probably quite common to artists and obsessive/intense personalities in general. i associate with plutonian energy, though that's just my own association.

c