posted March 15, 2006 03:03 PM              

Actually, yesterday, I would like to post the same topic as yours, saturn in 5th house, but I did not have time yet.

I would like to know effect of saturn in 5th house too. I do want to know whether there is anyone who has this aspect and can have children without problems? How about saturn in fifth house for a man? Would the result be the same - difficult to have kids?

I read in astrology books that although they can give birth to a child, the child may have problems when they were born. Is that true?

posted March 15, 2006 03:07 PM              

i thought a long time to write..ok..my ex was saturn leo in 5 th house..and like you moon libra..his sun sagitt..i know he is a man and he has not that problem..but i know that he had sad 4 years..he could not work..he had depress for a long time althouh he is sagita..but now he is fine..he started a new life he is working in manager position..but if you say 'fertiling' i dont know..i can say,saturn leo made him in working condition so bad..and he also had sad sitiations in his private life..

all i can say is that..

posted March 15, 2006 07:44 PM              

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001455.html

posted March 16, 2006 11:54 PM              

First, here's a little intro on Saturn through the Houses

quote:

---

Saturn Through The Houses
Saturn's place in the chart highlights the area in which you are likely to shoulder heavy responsibilities and encounter obstacles. Saturn is the planet of restrictions and limitations, and its position marks the spot where difficult challenges will be met. This is the house in which your management abilities will be tested.
The house in which Saturn is placed is a considerable focal point of the chart, since the sphere of life affected will be taken very seriously and will, in some respects, be a burden to the subject. While there is no reason for this area of life to be entirely unsuccessful or an on-going source of difficulty, progress will usually only be made after a special effort. When it is made, however, great satisfaction will be taken in personal development; the subject will have learned lessons, often the hard way. Here, Saturn is certainly a taskmaster. It is vitally important to remember that the aspects the planet receives will be-a powerful indication as to just how easy or difficult it is for the subject to make Saturn work for him- or herself, and if it is a personal planet, the characteristics it indicates will be a key to the whole personality.

---

posted March 16, 2006 11:56 PM              

quote:

---

Saturn In The Fifth House
Saturn positioned in the fifth house is associated with the romantic nature, creativeness and offspring. This placement denotes that you are person who finds it hard to just relax and enjoy yourself. Romances are serious business for you, but they can produce more pain than pleasure. Your romantic partners are likely to be older than you. Obligation is attached to your romances. The rearing of offspring may be difficult for you in various ways. Financial speculations will be entered with caution to avoid losses. Personal self-expression reflects a serious tone, and you find your best outlets in business management and politics. If you have creative talents, this placement will make it very difficult for you to express them or will delay the time when you become recognized for your talents.
Since this is the Leo/Sun house it has a bearing on the father, and when Saturn occupies it, the chances are that you were very domineering and dogmatic, making the subject feel inhibited. Rather differently, when the subject becomes a parent you will be very ambitious for the children, spending much time and money on what is considered best for them. Sometimes there is a tendency to push them into areas into which they do not want to go, and for which they have no real talent, simply because the parent sees the child as a clone of herself.
Creative talent is often present. It will be slow to develop, and the subject might not be sure what to do, but the urge to make and create may be strong. Suggest that the subject works with natural materials, should you get no hint from the Saturn sign.
A need for commitment The attitude to love affairs is deadly serious. Despite a powerful need for them, the desire to do the right thing will probably act as a sobering force, so that the subject will experience few relationships before making a total commitment to a partner. In a roundabout way, the father's influence may make its presence felt here, especially for men, and in women's attitude towards, and their feelings about, men.

---

posted March 16, 2006 11:57 PM              

quote:

---

Liz Greene:
Under the general umbrella of the fifth house are usually included pleasures and amusements, love affairs, children, creativity and self-expression, and speculation and investments. This is a rather large mouthful for one mundane house. As this house is the reflection of the Sun, the symbol for the consciosu ego, it might be easier to approach it as the expression of the individual's 'selfness', those areas where he can be uniquely and wholly himself, where he can permeate his feelings, desires, ideas, and activities with his own essnece, and where he is completely unimpeded and uncoloured by the necessity for compromise. This is the house of the individual identity; and through the affairs of the fifth house one begins to apprehend, through creative self-expression, the meaning of his own identity. Leo and the fifth house have a great deal to do with the recognition of the self both by others and by the individual himself. We interpret it also as the house of love, but it might more aptly be called the house of romance because this also is an area where the individual may express - or project - his own identity without interference; and through the experience of love of this kind he may get a glimpse of his own inner centre. Love in all its meanings is perhaps as much an archetype as is the archetype of the Self; and neither one is discernible on the birth chart; only the ways in which they are likely to be approached and expressed are evident, and they are both connected with the fifth house.
This house, like the first and the ninth, is also connected with the faculty of the intuition and with the individual's intuitive perception of the purpose and completeness of his total psyche. Expressing through the first, the individual intuits purpose through his interaction with the environment; expressing through the fifth, he intuis his wholeness through reflecting upon himself as he appears in his own creations. This kind of reflection can lead, in the end, to the experience of the 'I' as a complete and unique idea; but this experience is not approached through the intellect. Otherwise it becomes a meaningless set of concepts which only serve to throw up more barriers between the individual and his experience of himself. Through an act of creative expression, he may intuitively catch himself being himself; and the importance of this psychological experience should not be underestimated. It is one of the motives behind creativity.
It is usual to find the Leonian personality descirbed as egotistical and self-centred. But it might be more correct to say that rather than being self-centred, he is seeking the self at the centre, and in consequence everything that he does is of dramatic importance to him because somewhere in all of it he sense the possibility of the direct encounter, the direct experience. rather than criticising him for his tendency to exaggerate his own importance, it is perhaps more helpful to realise that no individual can be of any value to himself or to others until he first discovers who and what that self is. Through the fifth house, the individual begins to glimpse himself through those expressions which contain within them a piece of his own unique identity. This is not necessarily limited to creativity in the artistic sense, although this is perhaps a mroe direct form of self-expression. Every individual has some area of life where he is seeking to understand his own significance through completely unimpeded self-expression, whether this is an artistic field, an intellectual one, an emotional one, or the creation of a living child.
From this, it may be inferred that the conventional attitude toward the bearing of children is eomties in need of some further reflection. Often the first half of the creative process is accomplished - the child is born - but the second half, the half in which the education and self-recognition of the creator begins - is frequently neglected because this act requires humility of a kind which is usually absent from the parent-child relationship. Children are, in our society, very much a means of living out vicariously those qualities and expressions which are unconscious or have not been permitted to unfold in the life of the parent. Rather than helping to provide a means of self-realisation, they are seen as empty vessels which can be moulded, shaped, and filled with any content we choose. An act of creativity can always lead to greater self-awareness when we consider who it is that is doing the creating; but it always involves a gamble because of the possibility of pride distorting the perception. In any painting or piece of music, there is a fragment of the consciousness of the creator; and in the end it is for the greater consciousness of his psyche that he creates, not for his audience, although his audiences may be a part of the alchemical transformation by which he achieves divinity. This may seem abstruse, but we are fond of tossing about concepts such as God's love for his children and the artist's quest for immortality without having the vaguest idea what we are talking about. It is worth some meditation upon the idea of the creative act, and its psychic significance, in order to get fuller understanding of the meaning of Saturn in the fifth house.
When Saturn is in the fifth house, there is a temporary barrier between the person and his self-realisation, composed primarily of those shadowy attributes which he will not permit into consciousness. The creative flow is often blocked; or, if it is not blocked, then the experience of self-realisation which is the natural result may be blocked. The perfect circle of outpouring and inner transformation is interrupted, and the man often pours his energy out and thinks that he receives nothing back because his own sense of inadequacy prevents him from realising that it has nothing to do with the audience. This applies not only to creative expression but to romantic love as well. Usually the person with a fifth house saturn cannot easily find himself among his creations because he has had a minimum of recognition from anyone else. This is the classic indication of the unloved child, the child who may be ignored or treated as merely an extension of his parents, where his own identity and significance has somehow been swallowed up in the trappings of what passes for parent-child love. Children with Saturn in the fifth house are often loved in the sense that their parents love the idea of the child, but they are rarely loved for the unique quality of 'selfness' which is at the base of the individuality. later in life, because these children have never experienced the recognition of self by anybody else, they are hard-pressed to recognise it themselves and often find it difficult to make contact with their own inner significance. The child with Saturn in the fifth house must often pay the later price of intense feelings of inadequacy and insignificance no matter how many gifts or abilities he may possess.
This placement of Saturn often concurs with a reluctance or inability to have children; or the children may bring burdens, responsibilities, or pain. This is the traditional interpretation of a fifth house Saturn. He may deny himself love in the sense that, not loving himself or being able to understand his own value, he is afraid that no-one else will find him lovable either. Caught in his own feelings of inferiority, he may be jealous and resentful of others, ensuring the fact of his rejection by them. There is often a stiffness and lack of spontaneity about Saturn in the fifth house; one has the feeling that the individual is always wathcing himself wathcing himself and is rarely able to relax. He strains and pushes in the hope, unconsciously, of getting some glimpse of what he truly is mirrored in the loving eyes of others; but he generally consistently fails when he attempts it in this way. Because he pushes so hard, he often alienates those who otherwise might have helped him. His disappointments may come through many channels; but behind the heartbreak which is often associated with this position lies the individual's inability to love himself, to recognise his own significance, and to find an inner centre which can give his life stability and meaning.
Saturn in the fifth house has a reputation for being cold and heartless; but this kind of face is characteristic of Saturn and should not be taken literally. The heart of stone is apparent in many people who are concerned with protecting their own vulnerability with a veneer of callousness. Usually behind this veneer is a small child who cannot understand his own importance. There is often an intense selfishness exhibited by Saturn in the fifth house, and a desperate need to feel important, admired, envied, and popular. Envy is most typical of this position, for the individual who cannot find his own centre is often deeply resentful of what he thinks are the meaningful lives of others. To the individual with a fifth house Saturn, everyone else's grass often seems greener. Usually he is most envious of those who seem to attract love, friendship, and affection without having to make the strenuous effort at skill, superiority, and dazzle which is tyopical of the fifth house Saturn. No-one seeks popularity as assiduously as he does, whether this is conscious or not; and no-one is so crushed and heartbroken when he is not accepted. Saturn is awkward in the Sun's sign; and the challenge offered to the person with this placement is a difficult one, for he needs to find his inner centre and identify with that rather than the trappings with which he usually surrounds himself. Without these trappings, the person usaully feels naked and vulnerable. The opportunity offered, however, is an important one, for if he succeeds in finding this centre and manages to shift the focus of his personality from the ego to this more meaningful self, he can begin to recapture the naive joy which is apparent only in a child, the joy which comes from an innate trust in life and in the existence of love in the universe. Having once found the secret of his own identity, he can never lose it again; and that natural integrity and brightness which is one of the most endearing of Leonian qualities becomes his permanent expression. He is no longer dependent on whether others recognise him or not, for he has at last recognised himself. This experience of contacting the self always seems to evoke the smae response in those people who have experienced it: they seem to recapture some of the spontaneous joy, vitality, and innate honesty of the heroes of folklore and fairytale, regardless of the inhibiting qualities of their outer lives. This joy is not unconscious, however, for the process is a conscious one and is not a regression. Somehow the duality of conscious sophistication, or fine discrimination, and unconscious integrity, or the sense of trust, is fused within the personality. This is a great challenge and an important opportunity, and, if taken, certainly balances the pain and loneliness which are usually the initial gifts of Saturn in teh fifth house.
There is often an interesting blend of inflation and an intense and often crippling shyness apparent with Saturn in the fifth house. The individual both overrates and underrates himself, but rarely perceives himself clearly; consequently, he cannot see others cleraly because he is always projecting his own evaluations onto them and usually does badly in affairs of the heart because of this. He often cannot express overt affection easily, yet at the same time cannot bear to be ignored. Loyalty and honour may become of exaggerated importance to him, for he often tries to crystallise and solidify the love of others through emphasis on the forms and codes of behaviour which love sometimes takes as its outer expression. It is not so much love in the affectional sense as recognition that he seeks; and it is easy to see why this placement is often associated with those in the entertainment profesions. The fifth house itself does not need this feedback from others; he simply is, and that is enough. Saturn in the fifth cannot see the 'I', and must seek it in the applause of the crowd.
With this placement of Saturn, the psyche seems to be directed toward a realisation of itself, toward a process of individuation as Jung calls it, and will often not permit the conscious personality to find any solace in the usual activities which supply an identity for most people. Thus children, who often provide a sense of purpose and significance to their parents, are a disappointment, or there is no possibility of having them. Romantic love rarely turns out to be the ideal which is expected, because the eyes of the lover somehow never reflect that missing flash which will convince the person of his own value. Creative expression never quite seems fulfilling, and usually misses the mark. The individual usually is driven, in the end, to seek himself within himself, because no other means are left available to him. It is he himself who has set it up in this way; but to recognise the underlying purpose behind these disappointments is the beginning of wisdom and the final taking of the opportunity.
There may be as much overcompensation here as with any other Saturnian placement. many people with Saturn in the fifth house work very hard at never taking life seriously, although no-one is more sensitive, touchy, and serious in matters of affection than the fifth house Saturn. His fears of rejection and insignificance usually lead him to lace the idea of love heavily with concepts such as loyalty, duty, fidelity, and responsibility, although these may be unconscious lacings. He needs structures so that he may be guaranteed a sufficient amount of enduring love. Unfortunately, no matter how many structures he erects, he usually still cannot trust, and the disguise of frivolity rarely deceives anyone after a while although he may continue to deceive himself. The heaviness and needfulness of this placement usually shows through, and because of this the person is often deeply hurt.
If the person does not work with his fifth house Saturn, this is a rather unhappy position; any coupling of Saturn and the Sun carries weight with it, whether this coupling occurs by sign, aspect, or house interchange. All these contacts are connected with the discovery of the self; and this is painful because it involves the tearing away of the veil. We are taught in early childhood that we are many things - our feelings, or beliefs, or bank accounts, or children, or talents, or loved ones - anything and everything except ourselves. The person with Saturn in the fifth house often demands so much from others that he is left lonely and heartbroken. He is capable of much love and devotion, but does not dare to express it without asking for a guarantee back; only when he recognises this unconscious process of a barter can he begin to free himself of it.
What is often not recognised is that the ordinary man who has Saturn in the fifth house, who has no aspirations to conquer the world, may nevertheless have a small share of this desperate need for importance and recognition, coupled with an acute shyness which leads him to wait in the wings when what he wants most is to be at the centre of the stage with all eyes focused, adoring, upon him. Failing this, he may become a petty tyrant in the home, a hypochondriac, a domestic dictator.
The person with Saturn in the fifth house is sometimes not easy to love because he is like a jug with no bottom and absorbs affection and attention endlessly without being satisfied; however, if he begins to understand that his path is inward toward the self, he may begin to see what kind of opportunity is offered to him.
For the individual whose heart has been unlocked, every moment contains joy and significance; and although this may sound like the classic mystic's vision, it is also an empiric psychological fact and may be precipitated by certain psychological techniques, coupled with insight and patience. Having seen this vision, the individual needs nothing else to complete himself, for the self is whole. We may observe this motif in many myths and fairytales, for this is the treasure hard to obtain, the jewel guarded by the dragon or hidden in the beautiful princess's ring. It is the finding of this jewel which seems to be the special task of the person with Saturn in the fifth house, for nothing else will suffice.

---

posted March 16, 2006 11:58 PM              

quote:

---

Bil Tierney:
At some point during our formative years, our sense of self-esteem may have been bruised. Somebody important to us (Daddy, or even Moomy playing Daddy?) may have sat on our spirit long enough to make us feel puny, unworthy, or painfully insignificant. One result of this is the formation of a fragile ego. We doubt our creative talents and / or question our right to openly and expressively display our 'star power' in the world. Some of us who self-inhibit can suffer an inferiority complex that stirs much inner turmoil and frustration. A few of us who over-compensate are constantly attempting to prove ourselves superior to the rest of humanity. We work hard at risk-taking in those areas where we feel most competent, but do we really believe in our own glory?
The problem here is complex and multi-layered. Part of us has a strong yen to be regarded as special and signifcant, in spite of feeling shunned by at least one confidence-destroying, kill-joy parent during childhood. We will rarely if ever get praise from that parent in this lifetime. We need to accept this and take pride in ourselves anyway. Equally potent is a worry that we may actually turn out to be humdrum 'ordinary people' - merely another bland member of the statistical norm. We seem to have a dread of being labelled mediocre (even 'notorious' would be a more acceptable label). To top it off, we may also feel anxious that otehrs might discover we harbor swell-headed opinins about ourselves as well as hang-ups about being a no-talent devoid of any real sparkle. Are we just ugly ducklings, or truly beautiful swans in the making?
While we do not necessarily fear flying in the literal sense, we may have a hard time giving ourselves permission to creatively soar. We need to know what our audeence's reaction to our act will be - do they really, really like us? - even before we even agree to perform. We want guarantees of approval and favorable reviews ahead of time, which is impossible. Spontaneous risk-taking scares us, and that's too bad because such fear goes against all the natural promptings of the Fifth House, Leo and the Sun. But being able to take bold chances with life can also have its allure - we marvel at those totally self-possessed people who do 'bold' so well in the world and get away with it to boot.
Principle Five has little to do with premeditation or calculated response. It has lots to do with going out on a limb for the sake of joyous ego-extension and a heartfelt willingness to robsutly participate in life. This principle symbolizes a warm, passion-filled demonstration of honored selfhood. The Fifth House highlights anything that facilitates the child-spirit within us to happily emerge and enjoy its impact on the world. This house encourages us to take emotional gambles and adventures of the heart. However, little of this sounds like Saturn, our key to more staid adult-like behavior. Our problem thus becomes a reluctance to act out our vital need for aliveness without the promise of total ego-security and the safety of social acceptance. Saturn at all times seeks to walk on solid, safe ground; but the Fifth House suggests life is a party and much fun can be had by letting our hair down, even if others have a problem with that. Why sweat over the sour-puss attitudes of a few of life's party poopers? We need to spread our colorful wings and take to the skies in faith that the winds will carry us far and wide.
Unfortunately, we take a circumspect approach to those same social affairs others have little trouble throwing themselves into with festive self-release, like the people we see screaming and whooping it up in TV wrestling audiences. We feel uncomfortable in large public arenas designed for mass enjoyment, including dance clubs and other pleasure spots where happy folk congregate. While others let loose and cha-cha at the 'Mingle-Singles' bash, we instead quietly sip our drink (we have a self-imposed two-drink limit), cross our legs, and periodically check our watch. Maybe someone fascinating will come sit by us; but it's okay if nobody does, because it's almost time to go home anyway! Or perhaps we over-achievers work at becoming the life of the annual office Christmas party. Even then, we are still conscious of time passing, especially when things are going flat and we've run out of comic material. Whatever the scenario, most of us have an annoying habit of putting a damper on fun, usually when the socializing starts to become a bit loud, wild, or rowdy.
We typically have a tough time divorcing our self-consciousness (Saturn) from most Fifth House activities long enough to experience the joy of true recreation. Typically, we are not having such a good time - at least as long as we suspect our performance level is being constantly observed, evaluated, and critically judged by those we hope would simply love and admire us instead. Saturn is ambitious, though, and will not shrink from testing its strengths, so many of us will feel compelled to do our best and attempt to outshine all others, even if it takes a lifetime (and if often does).
If we cannot come out on top (or at least convince ourselves we cannot), some of us may not bother to even play the game. If we play but do poorly, we tend to withdraw and sulk, feeling ego-wounded for a long period of time. Saturn in the Fifth House can aptly be the signature of a 'sore loser'. Hearing that about ourselves usually makes us feel worse. Perhaps that's because, deep down inside, we assume it is our responsibility to always keep up a happy face. Some of us feel guilty if we're not always radiating; but Saturn reminds us tha thte show must go on anyway.
What about romance? Courting-and-sparking is a strong Fifth House theme. This life sector tells us plenty about our style of 'coming on' to others. It tells us how we behave when we feel sexual chemistry at work. Saturn here suggests we have the endurance to infuse our love life with a great deal of passionate energy aas a result of focusing our desires. We want to be satisfied and seriously so - once in love with the right person. We have lots of inner control, and are willing to wait it out until the real thing comes along. Meanwhile, we fret over the vulnerability of potential rejection by someone we find appealing. We don't send our own signals out across a crowded room with much confidence. We'd rather that our subject of attraction make an unambiguous beeline towards us - but not too aggressively. Saturn likes the slow build.
Astrologers would agree that Saturn in the Fifth House defines a realistic attitude about love; butsince Saturn is also a symbol of perfectionism - demanding quality and excellence - we could actually be more unrealistic about our romantic expectations than we realize. We desire qualities that are nearly impossible for any one partner to fulfill. Just the fact that we are serious in intent does not always mean we are also reasonable. By insisting on such high standards, we could actually be avoiding commitment, since few people are going to successfully become intimate with us. As we allow fewer and fewer people to have a sweeping Fifth House emotional impact on us, we remain autonomous, in control - and all alone on a Saturday night.
Choosing to pursue love and romance this way entails hard work. We assume that maintaining a love affair requires a great deal of time and energy. It's a demanding job. This can make us feel trapped, thinking that love will distract from other important objectives. We cause additional problems by making the whole issue more anxiety-producing than need be. A central challenge here is not getitng love but freely giving love to another. Saturn will test our ability to offer love with courage, self-assurance, and no regrets. With Saturn in the Fifth House, we sometimes wonder if we are actually warm and lovable people to begin with. We may harbor deep insecurities about our capacity to share ourselves body and soul with our significant others, no matter what our Seventh House says.
Insecurity may also explain why we try to supervise our love affairs as we would our children. Maybe we ssee our lovers as children at heart who need parental guidance. If we do not trust life to orchestrate our romances, perhaps it is because we fear life will handle the unpredictable parts badly. Although our approach is one of cautious self-interest, we need to periodically risk making fools of ourselves and take a few awesome chances to address teh constant demands of our heart. By doing so, we can become vividly aware of teh joys of such an emotional adventure. Let's face it: when was the last time our inhibitions best served our heartfelt needs? Never!
Many older astrological texts go on and on about how Saturn in the Fifth House denies us offspring, or at least brings us a heap of burdens through our raising of them. What are we to do with such information? Avoid human parenting altogether and buy an attention-demanding cockatoo instead? Some of us have indeed taken such a route, raising pets as our substitute kids. Yet a little honest self-examination might help us undertand why we have a hard time when it comes to children.
Many of us have not had satisfactory childhoods ourselves, since we often had to squelch our own childlike instincts in order to gain adult approval and more control over facets of our young life. We needed adult acceptance for our development of self-respect, which didn't and still doesn't always come from within. But as a result, we later grow up realizing we know little about being a kid - a goofy, silly, messy, rambunctious little kid. Thus, psychologically, we are indeed denied children by first rejecting the voice of our own child within.
What we typically seem to like least about children is their unnerving ability to express themselves through a purely instinctual mode that, at times, is uncontrollable, beyond reason, and raw with open emotion. For them, loud laughter easily rings out, and sobbing tears heavily flow. Perhaps it's our concept of what it is to be adult that needs to be reviewed, because we could have picked up some negative messages along the way. Our early role models (generally our parents) were apt to be adults who were stiff or regimented on some level. While orderly in habit, they might have been repressed in their emotions, and generally unwilling or unable to be light and playful with us. We later assume real adulthood means always being self-controlled and reserved in expression. Not surprisingly, this is often exactly the kind of adult we become.
But what about our own offspring? Can we allow them their sometimes immature reactions, their occasional bouts of forgetfulness, or their pesky, prankish ways? Usually not. We never got away with such misbehavior, so why should they? Unfortunately, such a sour grapes attitude can make us quite capable of stifling not only childish behavior, but also the marvellous imagination typically possessed by youth. We will need to be careful not to interfere with our children's natural inclinations to play-act just because it makes us feel uptight. The structures we provide need to allow for ample room to keep all creative juices flowing, including our own (mismanaged Saturn tends to dry things up too prematurely - in this case, from sour grapes to withered prunes).
Another issue is that of knowing when to let go of our children's lives. We tend to want to wait until they've at least made it safely into their fifties! We think it is our duty to mold their life pattern, making it as mistake-proof as possible. If and when they later reject our tireless efforts (especially us over-achievers), we end up feeling very let down and dejected. Or we may feel bitter and resentful, seeing our kids as ungrateful and opportunistic at our expense (we've done so much for them, we lament). Our children are not here to live out our unrealized dreams any more than we can perfectly fulfill their ambitions. If this is mutually understood early on in the parent-child relationship, there should be no reason to fear they will turn cold and indifferent when they leave home. They will happily and lovingly come back. Meanwhile, Saturn's wisdom tells us we need to grow up and become like children ourselves as we age! Once emotionally secure in our child-spirit, we at last might master the art of play.
What about Saturn in the Fifth House and the traditional warning against gambling? Why do we seem to have so little luck in games of chance? Why do we end up thinking raffles, lotteries, contests, or winning prizes are for someone else? Probably because gambling is a clear form of risk-taking and 'iffy' speculation. We rarely allow ourselves to gamble on emotional levels, so why do it on financial ones? With Saturn as a key to our conscience, we might feel we won't attract windfalls because deep down inside we believe we haven't earned easy rewards. But as long as we assume this, we will remain losers in this area. Slot machines simply won't co-operate for us. We also approach most other matters of speculation and investment with caution and suspicion. Even in games of skill - as in sports - we assume the gods will favor the other player we're competing against for the shiny trophy or the big fat winner's check.
We can change much of this by first analyzing why we choose to lose, or why we only permit ourselves to win after much struggle and sweat - and even then appear to be uncomfortable winers. Saturn is often hung up on the work ethic, rejecting the 'something for nothing' philosophy. Yet the Fifth House believes activities should be so pleasurable and entertaining that we forget we are even exerting ourselves, and thus appear to be getting more than we are putting out. With Saturn in the Fifth House, we just need to raise our own stakes and gamble more on feeling well-deserving of some of life's overflow. Once we start giving ourselves first-class treatment, we'll find ourselves on a winning streak. Bingo!

---

posted March 16, 2006 11:59 PM              

quote:

---

Zipporah Dobyns:
Saturn in the fifth house shows the need to deal with love and self-esteem. Fire and Earth can be natural antagonists, and need to be integrated. If the Fire wins, the individual keeps changing, looking for new excitement and thrills and applause, but is likely to have twinges of guilt because at the end there is little to show for the energy expenditure. If the Earth wins, the individual persists until something has been accomplished, preferably with tangible results, but feels frustrated at being tied down, not able to keep moving. Compromise is needed to allow some variety and some achievement.
Fathers described by a fifth house Saturn can range from loving and responsible to too involved in personal ego to notice the needs of others. They may be dominating or easily manipulated with flattery. They want to be heroes. They need an audience. Since the fifth house is a key to the person's own ability to love and accept love and to procreate children, there are likely to be lessons somewhere in that area.
The example of the father can point to growth potentials whether the father was a positive or a negative model. Some individuals with this placement may not have their own children because of the responsibility and fear of failing in some way. Some produce children but separate form the partner, and have to learn to share the responsibility. Single parents may be carrying too much and separated parents too little. Some people choose a career involving the children of others.
The fifth house shows a need to create something unique and to have it acknowledged by others. Possible careers can range from the entertainment field to teaching, from selling and promoting to investment. If possible, the individual needs to be in charge of the work rather than have to take orders. There may be intense ambition, but also the danger of giving up if the goals seem impossible to achieve, or too much work, or taking too long. Saturn reminds us that reaching the top is a long journey, that it requires time and effort, so we need to keep going.

---

posted March 17, 2006 12:00 AM              

quote:

---

Bill Herbst:
Conscious Persona: You are very sensitized to the imperative of conscious persona. Sensitivity is so high, however, that stage fright is a continual pitfall. You want to conquer fear of criticism by an audience you imagine to be reserved and judgemental, if not downright antagonistic. Early in life, your 'acting style' tends to be blunt and too loud; but later the persona can evolve toward greater subtlety, becoming conservative and low-key, with a calm sense of authority. Less is more; calculated reserve is often interpreted by others as quiet depth. The challenge is to turn vulnerabilities into strengths by slow movement from walk-ons and character parts, finally achieving durable stardom. Study your lines diligently, and know that you're safe behind the solidity of your character.
Romance; giving love: The risks of courtship are very serious business. You want romance almost desperately; but rejection anxieties are strong and persistent. You imagine every possible form of rejection in advance of any activity, so as not to be surprised by its pain. This technique rarely succeeds, of course, since romance can hardly get off the ground in the presence of such pessimism. On the other hand, you may blind yourself to the very real risks of loving and hurl yourself at the beloved with such blunt force that you alienate her, causing the very rejection you most fear. To succeed at love, move cautiously, keeping your feet on the ground. The challenge is to realize that patience and maturity bring romantic success. Gentle persistence furthers.
Sexual performance: You feel the burden of 'carrying the whole show' during lovemaking. Heightened awareness of risk and the onus of failure is accompanied by deep ambition to overcome your fears and prove yourself finally as a brilliant lover. Too much failure or prolonged frustration can cause you to reject yourself, others, or both. Curiously, however, immediate sexual success produces precisely the same results. A slow, middle road is demanded. Sexual performance is understood in its most physical dimensions; and lovemaking is thick, sometimes too much for your partner's enjoyment. The pitfalls are impatience and frustration; and the challenge is to develop sexual confidence and expertise thruogh gentle caution, to take raw drive and refine it into a polished product.
Personal creativity: Whenever possible, make your creativity physical. Saturn is the symbol for grounded earth reality, for the understanding of matter; so your natural arena is that of solid structures. Mentality may certainly be involved, and emotions are a natural part of creativity, but the emphasis here is on structures. This can be literal, as in sculpting or architecture, or it may take a different tack, such as organizing resources, bringing together the necessary ingredients for an end product. The challenge is to make your work creative, and equally, to make creativity your work.
Competition: You are competitive, but you may believe yourself to be unlucky, so you must conquer chance itself. You feel ashamed of your fear, so you risk everything. Avoid the contradictory pitfalls of total refusal to take a chance, alternating with foolhardy gambles on long shots. The challenge is to appreciate every small victory on the road to confidence in your skills. Banish your worry that the rules of any game single you out for disadvantage; learn the rules inside out, and don't bet when the odds are against you. Security and success are achieved only through measured risks.

---

posted March 17, 2006 12:00 AM              

quote:

---

Stephanie Camilleri:
Those with fifth house Saturns do well in down-to-earth, practical professions where results are immediate and clear-cut, where the practical, nuts-and-bolts nature of their creativity gets full use. It favors occupations such as carpentry, auto mechanics, farming, fishing, housekeeping, or anything where a creative response is called for by a broad range of activities.
For artists or performers, Saturn in this position tends to overly restrain the free flow of creativity, often keeping them from realizing their full potential. They are exacting, perfectionistic, insecure over performance; and their anxiety and desire for nothing less than perfection may prevent them from competing successfully. Their best bet will be to work in some form where they can rely on expertise with a process, such as the camera and dark room techniques provide to a photographer, or daily practice with an instrument gives a musician, and where they can be part of a group effort, such as an orchestra, film crew, or theater company. In some cases, the creativity may be slowed not from within, but from without, by powerful, jealous competitors who stoop to unfair means. (This tendency is modified if Saturn is trine the Sun or the Ascendant, is in Capricorn, or has Venus or Jupiter as dispositor.) A fifth-house Saturn gives a deep desire to do something meaningful, to leave something important behind. It gives great persistence and drive; but other aspects are needed to give inspiration and imagination. If these are also present, these people are capable of incredible creativity, though the results can range from the sublime to the unique to the ghastly or nasty.
Competition for these people is deadlily serious, whatever form it may take. They take romance very seriously. There may be an inner conflict over morals versus sexual needs. They are inclined to have at least one affair with someone quite a bit older than themselves, or at least a severe crush. They are inclined to allow ambition to affect romance, desiring a relationship with one who is, or seems to be, important, or who might enhance their status in some way. This desire is not likely to be satisfied. If they get the desired relationship, it will probably bring very different results from those they had hoped. There is often a sense of loss or disappointment with romance. THey may feel that they have not had as much as others, although in fact they may have had more than most. They may brood for years over a heartbreak that others would have forgotten soon after, or feel guilty over the hurt they themselves have caused discarded lovers. They tend to view fifth-house matters in much too serious a light. They need to learn to emphasize joy and gaiety; less moralizing, less judgement, fewer demands on themselves as well as their lovers.
This position of Saturn makes having children difficult. It may bring them late in life. It may bring too many too soon, so that providing for them is difficult. One or more may be chronically ill, or die in babyhood, childhood, or youth. If the Moon, Mercury, and Saturn's dispositor are strong and well aspected, these negative possibilities will lessen. In this case, they will probably transfer at least part of their own ambitions to their children. They may expect so much from them that they are bound to be disappointed. However, in some cases the child response to the parent's expectations and brings great pride in their achievements.
This location of Saturn gives the ability to work hard and long at something, but often not until a certain amount of inertia has been overcome. Once these people are motivated, however a moentum builds, and they will keep going against all odds until they have reached their goal.
Those with a fifth house Saturn should never gamble, or at least, never more than small sums that they can afford to lose.

---

posted March 17, 2006 12:01 AM              

quote:

---

Howard Sasportas:
While Mars and Jupiter rush into the sandbox to get started on their castles, Saturn in the 5th hesitantly steps into it with a worried look on his face. 'What if my castle is no good? I'm sure other people won't like it at all. Do I have to do one? I really should - all the other kids are. Everyone really liked Johnny's castle; maybe I'd better do one just like that?' Meanwhile Mars has finished his and Jupiter's is nearly done (it's bigger than Mars's). Saturn is still ruminating. 'Is this the best shovel to use? What are the basic principles of sandcastle building? I must get everything organized first.' Jupiter and Mars have now left the sandbox and are playing on the swings as the sun sets on Saturn firmly fixing the foundation of his castle into place....
Later in life, those with Saturn in the 5th have the same difficulty freely expressing their individuality and personal creativity. They desperately want to be loved for their specialness and originality, and yet feel that it is precisely their differentness which will put others off. What's going on?
For one reason or another, they have had 'the playful child' inside them rebuffed. The psychologist Karen Horney believes that in the same way a pear seed develops into a pear, human beings naturally grow into their intrinsic potential provided various adverse circumstances don't stand in the way of this happening. Very often, however, children only feel loved and acceptable when they are living up to what their parents desire them to be. Rather than risk revealing who they are in themselves, they will hid their own uniqueness for the sake of conforming to their parents' expectations. Their energy is then directed into this image of what they should be, rather than freely unfolding in its own right. A kind of alienation from the real self occurs, and the spontaneous flow of the self is blocked by rigidity, doubt and insecurity. They end up watching themselves watching themselves, while their real light stays hidden behind a cloud. The discrepancy between their real selves and their contrived identities leaves them unhappy and uncertain with what they produce. Ultimately the challenge of Saturn in this position is to find ways to free their trapped creative spirit. Mother and Father are no longer there watching over then. What those with Saturn in the 5th need to do is to give themselves permission to allow the spontaneous and playful child hidden inside to come out once in a while.
Often they lack hobbies and spare-time amusements which would serve to add that extra something to the enjoyment of life and through which their individuality is further defined. Similarly, they are insecure in affairs of the heart: romance adds spice to life and makes us feel important and special, and yet those with Saturn in the 5th aren't sure enough of themselves to fully enjoy a piece of the cake. Afraid of rejection, they are too guarded and fearful of looking silly to feel relaxed in these situations. For Saturn in the 5th, having fun is hard work.
They also fear that what they give birth to will be unacceptable. Hence, this placement is often associated with a reluctance to have children, or with problems with offspring. They may fear that their children won't like them, or, conversely, that they won't like their children. The tests and restrictions imposed by raising children will be strongly felt with this placement, so it is probably wise if they carefully plan the timing of when to start a family. It is likely that they will learn as much from their children as their children learn from them.
Curiously, I have done charts for quite a few professional artists and actors who have Saturn in this position - as if they must make work out of creative expression. Others may have careers in the organization or administration of the arts, or in professions which deal with children or young people.

---

posted March 17, 2006 12:02 AM              

quote:

---

Robert Pelletier:
You are self-centered, simply because you feel inadequate. You feel that you have to make more sacrifices than others do to get the same results. For this reason you withdraw and concentrate on your own interests, ignoring the rest of the world. You behave with propriety, guided by a fairly strong code of ethics. You don't want anyone to be suspicious of your motives, nor do you feel that you need to explain your actions. Fearing rejection, you won't express your feelings for someone until you are sure that the feeling is mutual. And you hesitate to reveal your creative talents for similar reasons. Because of these feelings of anxiety, you remain on the sidelines of social activity, where you are more secure. However, you will surely be lonely unless you are willing to participate. You respect others' rights, and you want them to respect your privacy. Although you aren't a talkative person, you enjoy discussing important matters. You seek knowledge avidly, knowing that in your career, doors are more likely to open if you are well informed.
A thoughtful person, you are attracted to people who are deliberative and reasonably profound thinkers. You admire people who think for themselves; and you look forward to the day when you can speak your mind without having to ask permission. You very much want others to need you and to accept you for yourself, particularly your mate or lover. There must be respect and sincerity between you and your lover and an agreement that you will both work dutifully for your individual and mutual goals.
A conservative person, you will probably acquire a sizable nest egg and be financially secure. The future is very important to you; and you want to be free from anxiety about material needs as you get older. You might choose to have few children or none so that you can relize your goals with as few ties and obligations as possible. You choose friends who won't make demands on your time or your bankbook. Self-preservation is a strong factor in your life, and is probably the reason why you don't indulge yourself any more. Life can be more enjoyable if you bend a little. Though you have a strong fear of being without the basic needs of life, that should not keep you from making your creative gifts available to the world.
You are willing to work behind the scenes, where you can apply your skills most efficiently. With your shy disposition, you are more comfortable when working away from the glare of the public spotlight. Obviously you will make whatever sacrifices are required in order to succeed in your career. You are also prepared to invest time and money if that will help you become more stabilized in your professional position.
You must avoid becoming depressed by conditions in your work environment, for this can cause you to lose interes and become distracted form your duties. Use this opportunity to improve your skills, which will enhance your competitive position. Difficulties arising from your early conditioning are no excuse to stop trying; instead you should strive to improve on those conditions and thus break away from the anxieties that they represent. Since you are no stranger to self-discipline, this should not present an insurmountable problem.

---

posted March 17, 2006 09:02 AM              

IQ, I didn't know you had saturn in the fifth, as well.

The description I most identified with was the one from Bil Tierney. Even with a lot of growth and maturity on my part and my father's illness (congestive heart failure), my father is still somewhat of an enigma to me and he still drives me crazy. He is: loud, obnoxious, opinionated and when he is angry.......he will cut you to pieces with his verbal vomit. He is also incredibly fragile emotionally and, sometimes, I think mentally too. Without my mother being the "rock" for him, I don't know what would become of him. I DO think my childhood was sometimes unhappy and my growth stifled because I had a child for a parent and therefore; had to be more adult BUT I have always been creative, outgoing and spontaneous. I hate all the descriptions that make it sound like you would be the most suffering, shy, boring person in the world. Whatever, if I get knocked down, I WILL get up again; I refuse to play the victim. I think of saturn in the fifth more like a handicapp that may make it harder to develop but in no way can keep you from achieving. Suffering can break you OR it can make you incredibly strong. IQ, what do you think? You obviously are not shy and broken. You could write a better description, I am sure of it!
Daydream, how do you think it effects you?

posted March 17, 2006 01:06 PM              

That in itself does not mean no children. I love children and I am very proud of my niece and nephew, I want one of my own. I am good with children and they love me too..

how this got started I don't konw maybe some anti-woman astrologer?

posted March 20, 2006 12:25 AM              

How do I think this effects me?

I'm not sure...I have Saturn in Virgo, a singleton. Conjunct my North Node, and involved in a T-Square (Square Sag Neptune, Opposite Pisces Moon).

My mother was more of an enigma to me, yet my father was the angry and obnoxious kind when I was young. And my father is pretty sensitive too. Even though my mother was sick and depressed all the time, she still was a rock...she's Taurus after all

What are your parents signs, and what sign does your Saturn fall in and what aspects if any does it make?

Totally with you on Saturn making you stronger.

I have to think on it some more so that I can give you a better description of how I think Saturn here affects me.

posted March 20, 2006 08:30 AM              

My PIS Saturn in 5th is also conjunct my Chiron...when I learned about astrology and in particular, this placement, I was thrilled to know that it was not 'just me' !!

In my natal chart, Saturn in 5th is squared by Sun in 8th. What a pain! Very difficult childhood with parents who were tyrannical. Dad is a Sag Sun/Scorp ASC and Mom is a Scorp Sun/Leo ASC...not compassionate for a second, terribly mean, seemed that they liked the idea of children but were not willing to sacrifice much at all for us. It was a 'them first' attitude.

Naturally, in trying to gain recognition-I was the over-achiever...the oldest of four and the only girl. In a chauvanistic family, women were treated as second class and thus, recognition for anything 'well done' was nil. But I sure tried my best!

Were any of you over-achievers? From a very young age, I would win contests...national competition at age 8 (representing my state of FL) for art...top grades...most popular...elected school VP..track star...etc....I did it ALL and tried my best to win it all...and usually I did WELL! HOWEVER, it never seemed to matter at home. I always thought this was odd.

For me, this is my most painful placement in my otherwise pretty great chart! Once I understood Saturn there, it helped me realize that this position made sense and what I needed to do was to get past the weight of my family and need for outside approval.

Right now, tr Pluto (in Sag 2h) is squaring my Saturn-chiron conjunction in 5th for me....and Boy, I just went through my first pass...yuck! However, it is forcing me to be even stronger (is that possible for us with Saturn in 5th?? I know I am very, very strong because of this upbringing)...

Pluto is forcing the final transformation and freeing me once and for all from holding back on my talents. The pressure I am always responding to with my father when it comes to changes in my career (or anything else for that matter) needs to dissipate. Blocking-out that negativity is difficult....we are always looking for recognition and approval because it is so difficult to 'believe' our inner voices telling us so. I can tell myself I am doing fantastic, and then, that inner voice implanted in my psyche from long ago questions my thinking! It stems from that blockage put in place by parental influences!! What a royal PIA!!

I look at my parents at times and wonder WHY? Who would treat their kids so crappy and pretend it was so great? Now I have to ask myself...HOW. How am I going to release myself from the weight of this misaligned parental baggage??!! That is the new voice in my mind...not WHY, but HOW!

The good news is that I have been making creative changes in my life and career over the last three years...and along the way have been working through my father's 'disappointment' (or whatever you call their attitude). My creative genius is itching to come out in a BIG way! Something in which I have known for many years is birthing into manifestation....and once I can clear the path and BELIEVE in myself (without question or need of blessings of sort from said parents)...my destiny will carry me to new heights-THIS I AM SURE OF!!

So...to all of us who carry the difficulties of a Saturn in 5th, we must continue to use this placement as a stepping stone to greater things...and not get caught up in the ridiculous issues of our father's (or mother's) poor decisions in trying to mold us as children!!

PS-When I learned more about astrology, I looked up my father's chart...OMG...this man has so many challenges to work on (or in his case-not!)....yet,because he is so fixed in nature...he will not learn in this lifetime...he thinks he is already perfect and it is everyone else who is wrong! Super. Ha,ha.....

Anyway-Thanks again for the fabulous information! I would really like to email you DD if possible to check on something...would you please let me know how I might reach you? Thanks!