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Author Topic:   Very Important Knowledge. Pls Read and think.
Iqhunk
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 01:43 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi All,
For the past few months, I have been trying out the principles of Mathematical Astrology initiated by American astrologer Carl Tobey.
Tobey used statistics for validation and regularly ruffled the feathers of orthodox astrologers as well as astronomers who hated astrology.

Tutorial based on Tobey's work:
===============================

1) Switch over to Equal House System.
Placidus is very useful in most analysis but does not help a Norwegian born in summer to have an accurate reading of his life because for him, 8 houses fit in 60 degrees! Equal House works consistently for even a child conceived in Antarctica or Greenland.

For a change of interpretation:
The house system statistically works better in the anti clockwise path because mathematically, the ordering of planets is moon, sun, mercury, venus, mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Y and Z. [2 missing planets]


This is because Sun is closer to the earth on average than Mercury and Venus due to these planets regularly going to the other side of the Sun. So the Natal Wheel for Signs should read: CANCER, LEO... GEMINI and for Houses anti-clockwise starting from CANCER's mate sign of LEO (as per ancient astrology), we have Leo ruling first house.
Cancer 2nd House. (Cash)
Gemini 3rd (Communication)
Taurus 4th (real estate)
Aries 5th (Luck, Entrepreneurial Business)
Pisces 6th (Health, Social Service)
Aquarius 7th (New changes)
Capricorn 8th (Death and Taxes, Establishment)
Sagi 9th (New Philosophies, Knowledge)
Scorpio 10th (Other peoples resources, Business Executives, Sex)
Libra 11th (Justice, friends, socializing)
Virgo 12th (Rigorous Work, Solitude)

Interestingly as per this system, Pluto rules Aries and Mars rules Scorpio. [Statistically, Mars in Scorpio, especially 19 Scorpio or 19 Taurus on the Martian Node has produced intense sexual deviants, nymphomaniacs, satyromaniacs and sexual criminals.]

Another correlation in favor of this system.
If Pluto is ruled by Mars, then it would cause a jump in the system from
Sun Leo, Mercury Virgo, Venus Libra, "JUMP to OUTER SPACE FOR Pluto Scorpio whereas it should be Mars now", Jupiter Sagi, Saturn Capricorn..
Such a jump breaks the natural harmony of progression. Think about it.

2) Every cusp point in the Equal House System is important for transits. Try to see what happened in your life when
a) Mercury entered first house cusp to 12th
b) Venus entered first house cusp to 12th
c) Mars
d) Sun

You will find that the transit to cusp of personal planets triggers events on that day or within 2 days (for Mars) relating to the characteristics of that house.

Example: Sun entering 2nd House cusp will trigger a cash/finance consciousness.
Mars entering 12th house cusp might cause over introspection or self isolation for 2-3 days.
Venus entering 4th House cusp might improve your home or surroundings or health.

Pls note that these may change subtly according to natal aspects and combination of planetary transits on other planets.

Example 2: Transit Mars entering 12th House cusp on a native with Natal Mars square Natal Uranus will trigger some kind of intestinal problem. If Transit Mars squares Natal Mars at this time, the native might need extra medication. If Transit Uranus squares Natal Mars at this time, then 90% chances the native will undergo some serious surgery.

3) Secondary Chart: Twist your entire chart by the difference in degrees between Sun and Ascendant. This chart explains the actual timing of events in life in any day.
[The clue to this chart is the Arabic Parts]

Construction Example: If your Ascendant is 10 Aries and Sun is in 10 Taurus, then difference is 30 degrees. Mark the point 30 degrees above 10 Aries ie 20 Pisces. Now make 20 Pisces the Secondary Ascendant and fill in the other planets with the same difference from the new ascendant as they were from Primary Ascendant.

Construction Example 2: Ascendant 9 Taurus and Sun is 21 Pisces. Difference is 60 degrees but Sun is on the top of the Ascendant. So mark it downwards [Primary Ascendant is like a mirror] at 60 from 9 Taurus ie 9 degrees Cancer.

Reasons for this Secondary Chart which looks exactly like the primary but yet is shifted by the Asc- Sun degrees: Transits to the secondary chart cusps and planets or conjunctions to secondary chart planets can cause significant events in life during the normal Primary Chart Transits.
It is as if the Primary Chart decides the basic pattern plus day of transit event and secondary chart decides exact time and exact nature of the transit event.

=============================================

This is completely new information and will take time to digest but it might throw light on those areas of your astrological analysis where traditional astrology did not give you the answers. Do not take my word for it, try it out and see if it explained the exact timing of any events in your life. Pls keep a diary for further research.

Happy analyzing!

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Lady Macbeth
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 02:08 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey IQHunk!

I specifically logged on tonight to send a shout out to you and see where you were, and here you are with, yet another, fascinating well of information.

Thank you for continually expanding my thoughts...

Cheers,
LM

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Happy Dragon
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 07:35 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hi .. *IQH ..
a good read 'n thanx .. still thinking on it .. will obviously have to re-read 'n think again ..
.. have you ever followed a chart using the sun position as an ascendant point ..
i.e. events in the 'charts' life re the resulting houses ...
.. Good to see you about !! .. was wondering about thee .. sir iq. ;-)

H§D

------------------
( audio files .. mp3 format .. www.happydragon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jkbx/audiofls.html .. )
"If you don't like my peaches, please don't shake my tree" .. Elmore James ..

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Atlenta
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 09:21 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey I liked the alternate system of house rulers. It certainly makes sense as well. I liked how gemini and sagittarius remained in their respective ruling houses.
Also, it seems rather numerologically based. For instance, numerologically, 8 is ruled by Saturn, and it's hardly about sex but about responsibility. Aquarius on the 7th also makes sense, since 7 numerologically is based on a bit of unconventionality. But astrologically, aquarius on the 7th might not fit so well.

But thanks for the new perspective!

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Dulce Luna
Newflake

Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009

posted November 07, 2006 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll check this out some more later but I already do see some correlations that make more sense using Equal House.

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Iqhunk
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 10:40 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Lady Macbethnd Happy Dragon,
Yup, long time since I found time to write here. Been too busy with Saturn Return clean ups!

HD wrote:
<<have you ever followed a chart using the sun position as an ascendant point >>
This is very similar to the Secondary Ascendant, in fact a mirror image of the secondary chart. It will have exactly the same information as the secondary chart by showing up "Opposition" Transits very strongly.

I have followed the Secondary Chart mentioned by Tobey recently. Infact I even applied it to synastry, to see if there can be additional explanations for attractions/destined matches.

My wife's Primary Ascendant is Capricorn and mine is Aries. We have a precise ascendant square which should result in the occasional heated personality clash. Touch wood, in the past 7 months, there have been none of the flash point clashes.
We do have several harmonious points but none with Ascendant.
Then, when I made our secondary charts, I find that her Secondary Ascendant is Aries and my Secondary Ascendant is Capricorn!

Plenty of hidden info can be found from these methods when we check for the impact of Lunar triggers on the exact timing of serious events.
From Tobey's book, he found that the exact moment of a freak accident involving himself and a lady while he was driving her car occured when Secondary Chart Transit Mars afflicted both thier natal primary charts.


Hi Dulce and Atlenta! Yes, this system is very important for mathematical observations and precise transit effects.
More research however is needed for Aqua as 11th versus Aqua on 7th.
We must observe the statistical evidence of a 11th house trigger causing more balance than inventive changes and 7th house triggers causing more changes than balances, from our own life expereinces, to reach the proper conclusion.

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Stargazer
Knowflake

Posts: 46
From: just left of center
Registered: May 2009

posted November 07, 2006 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stargazer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
*******Interestingly as per this system, Pluto rules Aries and Mars rules Scorpio. [Statistically, Mars in Scorpio, especially 19 Scorpio or 19 Taurus on the Martian Node has produced intense sexual deviants, nymphomaniacs, satyromaniacs and sexual criminals.]********

What do you mean ~ "on the Martian Node" ?????

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noreenz
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 10:57 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had wondered what you were up to when you mentioned working with the Equal House system in an ealier post...nice job IQ!

Interesting information, looking forward to getting focused and analyzing.

Thanks for sharing!
Noreen

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Dulce Luna
Newflake

Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009

posted November 07, 2006 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dulce Luna     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, thats what i don't understand. I think that Libra is the rightful owner of the 7th. Unless the person found new meaning to be attached to the 7th. (Which they did actually)


And same with Cancer and the 4th, although I do kind of understand how Taurus got attatched there, that being the physical property of the home (as you said, "real estate")....as opposed to what "feels like home" or family (cancer). Strangely, I also think one's ethnic background should fall under the 4th house. (Whenever my mother refers to our mother country she calls it "home"). Thats why I think Cancer should stay in the 4th.

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Glaucus
Moderator

Posts: 5228
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted November 07, 2006 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Martian Node is referring to Mars Node. Planetary Nodes. 2 degree orb is used. I prefer to use 1 degree orb myself.

MERCURY NODES provide further insight into mental faculties and communication skills.
VENUS NODES highlight relationships, extravagance and artistic talents.
MARS NODES indicate assertive, aggressive behaviour, sporting prowess, accidents and operations.
JUPITER NODES highlight philosophy, education, travel and the concept of expansion and protection.
SATURN NODES indicate security, sometimes over-emphasised, ambition and hardships.
URANUS NODES show clever, inventive and freedom-loving traits and determined self-will.
NEPTUNE NODES indicate artistic and theatrical talents, plus areas of sensitivity and emotional confusion.
PLUTO NODES highlight determination, domination and exploration.
CHIRON NODES express care for the wounded soul, lessons learnt or taught.

They can be used in synastry too. The descending planetary nodes are supposed to be karmic pastlife contacts.

My uses of the planetary nodes have been inspired and influenced by the brilliant pioneering work of eminent astrologer, Jeffrey Wolf Green. Strong aspects, especially tight conjunctions, oppositions, and squares, of one partner's planets and/or angles to the Descending Nodes of the other's personal planets (Mercury, Venus, and Mars) are significant indicators of soul mate connection and likely involvement in previous lifetimes. The actual pre-incarnate contact between the two parties strengthens the experience of soulfulness in the relationship exactly because the source of that contact lies outside one's current bodily perimeters.


my descending Mars node opposes my girlfriend's Venus with 29 minutes of arc,and her descending Venus node conjuncts my Mars with 20 minutes of arc.
http://www.astrologycosmobiology.com.au/moons_eclipses.html
http://www.synastry.us/soulmate_indicators.asp

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Hexxie
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 02:23 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi IQ ~ Interesting, although I do not fully comprehend it all at this time.

RE: "3) Secondary Chart: Twist your entire chart by the difference in degrees between Sun and Ascendant. This chart explains the actual timing of events in life in any day.
[The clue to this chart is the Arabic Parts]"

My Asc is 29*Gem and my Sun is 10*Libra. So what is my Secondary Asc? Could you please also explain to me how you arrived at my Secondary Asc #?! I tried following the construction example 2 above but it's not working out correctly for me. Thanks in advance!

------------------
`Who are you?' said the Caterpillar. This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation. Alice replied, rather shyly, `I--I hardly know, sir, just at present-- at least I know who I WAS when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.'
~Lewis Carroll

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Stargazer
Knowflake

Posts: 46
From: just left of center
Registered: May 2009

posted November 07, 2006 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stargazer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Glaucus

I asked because I have Mars in Scorpio 19'

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Glaucus
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From: Sacramento,California
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posted November 07, 2006 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Serpentis

19 degrees Scorpio. Considered by some to be a malefic degree of the zodiac. The "accursed degree of the accursed sign." This degree is now occupied by the North Scale (19 degrees 22 minutes Scorpio in 2000) which signifies honors, distinction, intelligence, and good fortune, but also violence and tragedy. North Scale is considered to be of the nature of Mars, Jupiter, and Mercury.


My Mercury is in 18'22 Scorpio so near the accursed degree.....that could be my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,miscommunications,volatile speech at times
My Mercury is in alignment with Zuben Eschamali(Northern Scales)

My Mom's Moon is in 18'56 Scorpio so near the accursed degree.....that could be her never knowing her mother,being unwanted by her,13 fosterhomes,and volatile emotions at times
Her Moon is in alignment with Zuben Eschamali(Northern Scales)

Your Mars is in alignment with Zuben Eschamali(Northern Scales)

Sabian symbols refer to 18-19 degrees as the 19th degree.

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DayDreamer
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 08:50 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been trying to figure this out for a while....I was using Equal for a bit, but I went back to Placidus cuz I didnt relate as much to my chart using the Equal system. I really should keep a diary though and take a look at what you're pointing out.

Some more stuff on the houses:

Which House System? http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/009795.html

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izodesmozina
unregistered
posted November 07, 2006 09:34 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi, iqhunk! I'm new here (less than a week I think), but I currently have 5 planets in my 9th house so I'm like a sponge where astrology is concerned.
Very interesting, indeed... It's nice that the rising becomes the Sun... Clever!
I have some questions:
1. regarding equal houses: some planets change houses; do you take into consideration the interpretation for their position in the new houses? How about the MC - is it still important? Does it matter in which house it falls?
2. what are the 2 missing planets? Were you reffering at 12(signs)-10(planets)=2missing planets?
3. How important is the Secondary Ascendant?
4. Are the degrees between the Sun and Ascendant important (the aspect between normal Ascendant and the secondary one?)
5. secondary chart: do you also "progress" asteroids, Lilith, Nodes? How about the MidHeaven?
6. is it compulsory to work with equal houses in the secondary chart?

Now... I did my secondary chart because I was very curious and also because there is a particular event in my past that changed my life completely and I couldn't find any concordance with the transits for that day.
8 years ago I was a victim of an act of violence because a jealous girl in my class made up a story about me offending a boy (which I didn't).
Secondary chart: no planet transited my cusps (true for the normal chart, as well); the only things that I found, which made some sense, were Lilith transiting my 12th house (hidden enemies) in a perfect conjunction with the South Node, the Moon and Neptune in Libra and Uranus transiting the 4th house (there was some trouble with my family, too, because they all thought I deserved it), activating my T-cross formed by Mars (4th house, Aquarius) opp Pluto (in the 10th, Leo - social trouble, again... they too tought I deserved it) square Ascendant (at some point, I started feeling like I deserved it too)... But somehow I feel something is missing... It affected deeply my social life (my progressed MC doesn't seem to receive hard aspects). Also, the fact that nobody trusted me altough I was completely innocent AND the victim! Maybe that nasty Lilith conjunct Neptune?...
Will come back with details if there are some. Anyway, it works better that the traditional astrology (for this event at least)-transiting Lilith was in my 8th house, but made no aspect!!
You made a believer out of me, IQ!

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Stargazer
Knowflake

Posts: 46
From: just left of center
Registered: May 2009

posted November 07, 2006 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stargazer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glaucus...

"accursed" as in doomed, damned and such

Serpentis? Northern Scales?
okay, I guess I would also have to add that my MC is at 19' Scorpio as well...

My chart is one hot mess using equal houses.
Making their home in my 8th house in an equal chart is:
Sun
Mercury
Venus
Juno
Ceres
Pt. Fort.
Uranus
Pluto
Vertex

I would say the tragedy aspect would pertain as I have endured my fair share.

Would 19' Jupiter be malefic as well?

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Iqhunk
unregistered
posted November 08, 2006 12:02 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Glaucus,
I am impressed, you seem to be just as geeky as I am when it comes to astrology. Cheers!

Hi Stargazer!
So you have the Mars in 19 Scorpio , (the present Mars Node axis.)
This placement is usually associated with
excessive sex and excessive violence. Women with this placement when afflicted by Neptune, Saturn or Uranus squaring the Mars regularly have hysterectomy whereas men have vasectomy or prostate surgery etc.
Sun conjunct Mars in this place gives rise to a life of Sex, Sex, Sex and violence [To quote Carl Tobey.]
It is not malefic at all. It is due to excessive Kundalini energy which if channeled into arts or creativity can enable you to produce masterpieces. Channelled into public speaking, you can beat Billy Graham.
Idle sex energy is a Horny Workshop, whether physical or mental.

Your extra share of tragedies is because of the excessive planets in the 8th house of death. The purpose is definitely to make you a stronger soul, but it is too challenging and takes a lot of will power.


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Iqhunk
unregistered
posted November 08, 2006 01:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Noreen and Hexxie,
Here are your secondary ascendants:
Noreen: Approx 3.30 degrees Cancer. So just check out all points between 3 and 4 degrees for transit effects during important planetary transits in the primary chart.
Example: Transit Chiron is irritatingly close to Secondary 8th House. This would have beem problematic had Transit Uranus been in 20 Pisces, squaring your Natal Mars.

For Hexxie:
I should have explained the construction better. Just make a mirror image of the Sun above or below the Primary Ascendant depending on whether the Sun is below or above the Primary Asc. That is the Secondary Ascendant.
Approximately 11.5 Degrees Pisces is the Secondary Ascendant. This could explain a lot about your high quality metaphysical taste


Hi Izodes,
Sorry about the unfortunate event. From the description, Lilith + Neptune + South Node (past life karma) is the most plausible.

The secondary chart is most useful for assessing the impact of transits.

To know ourself, traditional astrology is say 9/10 and secondary chart just 1/10, not too important.

To know the impact of planetary transits on houses, Equal House system in Primary chart is 9/10. Secondary Chart is again 1 or 2/10 in value [I am saying this with my current knowledge, this may change if someone discoveres additional statistical evidence about this method having more impact]

To know our major transits to planets,
Equal House Primary Chart is 9/10 and Equal House Secondary chart is also 9/10 AFTER you determine the points in the Primary chart.

So every method has its use for appropriate times. Remember, ARABIC PARTS = Secondary Chart. Part of Fortune is so true and is just the position of the Moon in the secondary chart.

Asteroids for example indicate subtle infleunces and are useful only for those who have gone deep into their self analysis. Secondary Asteroids? Unnecessary. It will only cause confusion in understanding.

Equal House has to be used always for transits, in primary and secondary chart.

MC is just 10th House cusp in Equal House.

Missing Planets are the rulers of Taurus (Y) and Gemini (Z). Statistical Analysis shows that Z is in the end of Aries right now. How this was done would need a full post from me some other time.

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izodesmozina
unregistered
posted November 08, 2006 08:06 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IQ

So, to know ourselves, would you consider the equal house system in the primary chart? I live in Europe, lat 45 09 N, so I've always used Placidus. Regarding the MidHeaven in equal houses - it does fall in my 10th house, but 3 degrees apart from the 11th house cusp (my Asc is 25 degr Capricorn, MC 22 Scorpio... The question is: WHICH MC should I consider? 22 degr Scorpio - from Placidus - or 25 degr Libra - the 10th house cusp in equal house system?). I do have to admit that the equal house system offers some valuable insight. I'm sorry I didn't consider it sooner. Some things make a lot of sense... I'm simply fascinated by this because I found some missing pieces from my puzzle (for example, the opposition from my T-cross makes more sense on the 4th-10th house axis than 3rd-9th and my Moon/Neptune conjunction in 12th compared to 11th house). I'm also very, very intrigued and interested to know MORE!!
Thank you so much, IQ, for sharing this extraordinary knowledge with us!

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Iqhunk
unregistered
posted November 08, 2006 09:17 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dp

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Iqhunk
unregistered
posted November 08, 2006 09:17 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Use the Equal House System in the Primary Chart to know yourself the best.
Equal House System was actually preferred by several famous astrologers, Linda Goodman included. The extraordinary info is the transit effect of every planet on every Equal House Cusp.

For example, Sun transit 10th House cusp or MC [25 Libra] SHOULD shine light on your career. So what happened on October 17-18th in your life? Did anyone talk about career or a new job or opportunity? Mars and Venus transit that point too. Jupiter transited 25 Scorpio some time back, probably the peak inspiration for you to join astrology sites and absorb wisdom in plentiful quantities.
Please keep a diary, it will be your best gift 2-3 years from now as you attain self mastery of most transits.

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izodesmozina
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posted November 08, 2006 09:36 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't remember anything special about 17-18th of October. However, I'm still in college (medicine)... I probably right-diagnosed some patients in school (but I'll start working on that diary - wanted to do it for a long time). I was checking my transits on the equal houses today and I found something even more surprising (I'm so happy and excited about the info you posted and it's all I've been thinking about it - can't thank you enough for enlightening me!!). Pretty soon Saturn will walk out of my 7th house (don't know the exact day) - it caused a lot of trouble with my bf... I was so critical towards him and thought I could meet someone better. I thought a lot about this lately, because there is someone else with whom I have a lot in common and we are very compatible (more than with my bf), but somehow that doesn't appeal to me now... even if we have issues (T-crosses and stuff), I want to stay in this relationship and work on it. In the Placidus system, Saturn would stay in my 7th house for more than 1 year. But I sensed that something changed in my atitude.
It really makes a lot of sense!
Thanks again, IQ!
This means I'll have a busy week-end analysing transits and cusps... Hmmm...

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Stargazer
Knowflake

Posts: 46
From: just left of center
Registered: May 2009

posted November 08, 2006 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stargazer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Iq...

Thank you... trSaturn is squaring my Mars right now..and trNeptune, now direct, will make another pass soon with a square

You mentioned Carl Tobey. Is there a book he has written you might suggest I read?
Or something else perhaps?

I also may have confused you with the Jupiter malefic question. My Jupiter is not in Scorpio it is in Leo at 19'..
I have done quite a bit of public speaking in the past. Mostly involving training Sales associates.

tragedy/death.. I believe you are right.
I also believe that the 8th house influence has helped me to find the inner strength needed to get through it. I have also come close to losing my own life on more than one occasion...which I guess makes perfect sense.

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Iqhunk
unregistered
posted November 08, 2006 11:45 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://homepages.hawaiian.net/drdon/
Treasure, true treasure trove of knowledge.

Stargazer,
pls do not be scared of Squares to Mars now because you have the awareness of this.
It is the unaware (mostly disbelievers in astrology and those with weak mind patterns) who fall prey to the transits by acting rashly or reacting too much, thereby creating karma that needs balancing through negative expereinces.

Even the most dreaded Saturn return can be tackled with some effort once you increase your self awareness of what is happening around you. The planets only impel, never compel.

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Hexxie
unregistered
posted November 08, 2006 12:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting indeed IQ! My Secondary Asc is my Natal MC. Same degree and everything I also have tUranus conjunct this area in my chart currently. Thanks for the mind food!


------------------
`Who are you?' said the Caterpillar. This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation. Alice replied, rather shyly, `I--I hardly know, sir, just at present-- at least I know who I WAS when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.'
~Lewis Carroll

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