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Author Topic:   Confused about House/Earth rotation
Scorpionic Web
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Philadelphia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 28, 2007 02:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpionic Web     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The rotation of the the Earth causes the planets to move backwards through the houses (example- I was born at 10:30 PM, and my Mars is in the 5th house, but if I were to be born three hours later, my Mars would be in the 4th house).

Then why is it that if Earth's rotation causes the planets move clockwise through a chart (backwards through the houses), then planets close to the end of a house are interpreted in the following house, as if the planets are moving counter-clockwise through the houses?!?!?

Because of Applying and Seperating principles (Applying being a stronger force than Seperating), if planets are going to be "interpreted" in different houses because of their close proximity to house cusps, then shouldn't planets close to the BEGINNING of houses be interpreted in the PREVIOUS house (as opposed to the current practice of interpreting planets at the END of a house as being in the FOLLOWING house)?!?!?

Why would my 5th house Mars ever be "interpreted" in the 6th house, if it is actually MOVING AWAY FROM the 6th house, and NOT MOVING INTO the 6th???

Any thoughts?

Can someone please help explain this?

***Edited for clarity

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted March 28, 2007 03:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Why would my 5th house Mars ever be "interpreted" in the 6th house, if it is actually MOVING AWAY FROM the 6th house, and NOT MOVING INTO the 6th???...ScorpionicWeb

Right On ScorpionicWeb!
You are the first person here that I have run across to verbally recognise this commonly mistaken point.

I know its confusing just like the Ascendant is East and the Descendant West

(and I thought you explained it rather well)

Impressive work

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Alecto
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posted March 28, 2007 04:44 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

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Alecto
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posted March 28, 2007 04:45 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
.

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted March 28, 2007 06:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cheers and Welcome Alecto

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Scorpionic Web
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Philadelphia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 28, 2007 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpionic Web     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alecto, I understand you were drunk when posting, but if you actually read my words, you'd see that your cut-and-paste response didn't answer my question at all.

The problem I posed was one of "interpreting" planets in different houses because they are at the edge of house cusps.

Again, my concern is this- why would a planet, say, in the 10th house close to the 11th house cusp be "interpreted" in the 11th, when it is actually moving away from the 11th house, and not moving into the 11th?

Again, because of the Applying/Seperating principles (an Applying aspect being stronger than a Seperating aspect), if an individual is to interpret a planet in a different house, wouldn't it make more sense to interpret a planet at the beginning of a house (say, 4th house) as being in the previous house (3rd house), for this is the house that the planet is actually now applying toward?

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Alecto
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posted March 28, 2007 12:32 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have such a freaking headach,
I'm sorry I posted
I turn into a blubbering dumb ass when I'm drunk.
forget me your topic really is interesting go on go on.

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted March 28, 2007 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alecto had it but erased.
The Ascendant moves one degree every 4 minutes (to the left, clockwise)
Any planets motion is nowhere near fast enough if its losing ground at the rate of one degree every 4 minutes.
So yes any planet that is on the right side of a house/cusp has just completed that house and has now entered another. (like from the 5th to the 4th)

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Scorpionic Web
Knowflake

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From: Philadelphia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 28, 2007 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpionic Web     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alecto's information was very good for newcomers of astrology, but it wasn't at all relevant to my concerns.

I've been following astrology for years and have long understood all of the motions of houses, planets, etc. That is all Astro 101 for newbies.

My problem regards the practice of INTERPRETING PLANETS NEAR HOUSE CUSPS. All I wanted to know is the following--

Since the Earth's rotation causes planets to move backwards through the houses, why would a planet in the 5th house ever be considered in the house that chronologically follows (ergo, 6th house), when it is actually moving away from this house?

Therefore, it follows, that shouldn't this method be reversed: with planets at the beginning of the 6th house being interpreted in the 5th house? Because this is the house that the planet is actually about to enter...

It seems that interpreting planets on house cusps should go backward numerically, not forward numerically.

Can anyone help answer this question?

I can't understand the reason for this practice of house interpretation at all...

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Scorpionic Web
Knowflake

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From: Philadelphia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 28, 2007 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpionic Web     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lalalinda-

How can a planet on the RIGHT side of the 4th/5th cusp have just completed it's transition backward over the 5th house cusp and now entered the 4th house?

That is a contradiction. If the Earth's rotation causes the planet to move backward though the houses, then to have just completed crossing the cusp and now on the right side would mean that it is moving FORWARD, not BACKWARD through the houses. A planet to the right side of the 5th house cusp hasn't yet crossed over into the 4th. It has not made its transition yet.

Look at a chart, you used the example of moving from the 5th to the 4th, but the counter-clockwise motion of the Earth has caused a planet to move into the LEFT side of the cusp (clockwise; 5th to 4th is from right to left)...

At 10:30 PM on the day of my birth, my Mars was in the 5th house, almost three hours later, the Earth's rotation caused it to move into the 4th house. Mars is moving backwards through the houses from right-to-left clockwise (left-to-right for houses 12 through 7), not vice versa.

The 5th house is to the right side of the 4th. So if the earth's rotation moved the planet out of the 5th and into 4th house, then the houses cause the planet to move from the right of the 5th cusp to the left of 5th cusp in a chart, not left-to-right.

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Scorpionic Web
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Philadelphia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 28, 2007 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpionic Web     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lalalinda, you wrote-
"...any planet that is on the right side of a cusp has just completed that house and has now entered another. (like from the 5th to the 4th)"


BUT LOOK-

10:30 PM, November 12

1:10 AM, November 13

Mars has gone from the right side of the 5th house cusp to the left side of the 5th house cusp (into the 4th house).

So, how can a planet on the RIGHT side of the 5th house cusp have, in your words, "now entered another" house?

Mars needs to be on the LEFT, NOT RIGHT, of the 5th house cusp to have entered a new house (4th house)...

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted March 28, 2007 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi ScorpionicWeb

I know, it's confusing, but bear with me.
Lets use a time frame of 3 hours.

Lets say we have Mars at 25 degrees Aries in the 5th house and the 6th house cusp at 26 degrees.
It now looks like Mars is getting ready to "enter" the 6th house (because planets move to the right or counter-clockwise) we'll come back to this

The Ascendant moves 1 degree every 4 minutes.
imagine that your hand is a natal chart
Spread out your fingers and point your hand to the left.
Now slowly turn it clock-wise (to the left, because the thumb will cross over what would be the point of the Ascendant which moves to the left)

Now, remember that 25 degree Mars?
In the space of 3 hours its' motion will move no more than a couple of seconds but the horoscope wheel will continue to travel.

Meanwhile the Ascendant is still moving 1 degree every 4 minutes, which means that, that 6th house cusp which is 26 Aries will be 27 Aries (in 4 minutes) 28 Aries (in 8 minutes, etc) and Mars is still 25 Aries and getting further and further away from the 6th house cusp.

You can also go in the opposite direction and minus 8 minutes from the initial chart and come up with Mars 25 and the 6th house cusp at 24.

I hope I explained that so everyone can understand.

ScorpionicWeb, it's going to hit you like an epiphany. Something you know but you don't know you know.

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Scorpionic Web
Knowflake

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From: Philadelphia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 28, 2007 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpionic Web     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've long understood this, and I thought this understanding was obvious from my original post which started this thread.

You've done nothing to help my problem.

But I sincerely thank you so much for your dedication.

Regardless, why would a 25-degree Aries Mars look like its about to "enter" a 26-degree 6th house cusp when everyone knows the rotation of the Earth is faster than the transiting planet, thus the 6th house and Mars are clearly seperating from each other?

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Scorpionic Web
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Philadelphia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 28, 2007 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scorpionic Web     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lalalinda-

Your example of a "25-degree Aries Mars and 26-degree 6th house cusp" is the perfect segway back to my original post/problem...

Since we both understand how the 6th house and Mars are seperating from each other, can you explain to me how some systems/astrologers would "interpret" a 5th house Mars as though it were in the 6th house, when you and I both know the 6th house is actually moving away from Mars? This was my original problem.

Can ANYONE explain the reason for this method of interpretation? This is all I wanted to know in the first place.......

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted March 28, 2007 11:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes ScorpionicWeb

Because the Planets' motion is to move ahead (unless RX) or forward (counter-clockwise)
so if you didn't understand advanced astrology you probably wouldn't take into consideration the movement of the chart itself.
And focus solely in the movement of the planet.

Important to remember
planets move counter-clockwise
houses move clockwise

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Alecto
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posted March 28, 2007 11:57 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
please tell me if I'm understanding you right.
The movement of the planets matter more the the movement of the houses.
So even if the the 6th house cusp is moving away from mars as long as its conjunct or close to it, it can be consider in the 6th house?


I think I'm getting confused now

I don't think I get it

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lalalinda
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posted March 29, 2007 12:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thats what ScorpionicWeb is asking also
if a planet has moved into the 5th from the 6th (because the houses travel clockwise) then it's finished with the 6th house and focused on the 5th.

Whatever degree your planet is on its pretty much there for the day (the exception is the Moon)
So like Scorpionic Web has shown the planet will travel backwards through the houses.

edited to add:
that's confusing, the planets are not traveling backwards, the houses are.

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Alecto
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posted March 29, 2007 12:13 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oh oh
is it more like the planet is chasing the house cusp in front of it?
so even though the house cusp move faster than mars because mars is still moving forward and because houses fall into houses instead of houses scupeing up planets the house falls into the 6th house
now did I get it?

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Alecto
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posted March 29, 2007 12:23 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
wait don't both houses and planets move counter clockwise through the signs?

wait wait wait what did I miss
both the planets and houses do move counter clockwise through the signs

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted March 29, 2007 12:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

It's like if your Mars is 25 degrees Aries
for the whole day it will be that degree
but Mars is still moving forward
In a day's time its motion still doesn't amount to more that a degree.

edited to add: Important to remember
planets move counter-clockwise (forward)
houses move clockwise (backwards)

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Alecto
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posted March 29, 2007 12:35 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok you said houses move clockwise.
so isn't clockwise in a horoscope Aries, pisces, aquarius, capricorn ect.
but the ac moves aries, taurus, gemini, cancer
counter clockwise right?

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lalalinda
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posted March 29, 2007 12:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
no Sweetie
clockwise is Aries, Taurus etc.

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Alecto
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posted March 29, 2007 12:47 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I feel extra retarded today.

Lets make this super simple for me.

lets say Aries is 45 minutes
sagittarius in 12:00
Virgo is 15 min
and Gemini is 30 min

ok lets start at 12:00 the top of the clock sagittarius we would move to 1:00 scorpio
then 2:00 Libra
would that progession be called clockwise?

moving forward on the clock but backwards in the signs

by the way thank you for being so patient with me

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lalalinda
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From: nevada
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posted March 29, 2007 01:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lalalinda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Start at the Pisces Asc. (9 o'clock)
Gemini IC (6o'clock)
Virgo Desc. (3 o'clock)
Sag MC (12 o'clock)
this is the order that the signs pass over the Ascendant

Take a circle and move it clockwise
that might help you see.
good luck darlin

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Alecto
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posted March 29, 2007 01:55 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ya ya that's what I was saying!
if you move from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock thats counter clockwise
and if you move from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock that clockwise
because clockwise go's 12,1,2,3,4,5,5,7,8,9 and counter clockwise go's 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

and both the AC and planets move counter clockwise

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