posted October 26, 2007 10:54 PM            

First of all Hitler himself was a:
sun in Taurus
moon in Capricorn
asc in Libra

His very important man, Heinrich Himmler, was commander of the Schutzstaffel (SS) and one of the most powerful men in Nazi Germany and the Nazi hierarchy. And:

sun: Libra
moon: Pisces

Adolf Eichmann, the famous guy who is the orchestrator of the "final solution" the plan to kill the jews or in Wiki terms "Due to his organizational talents and ideological reliability, he was charged by Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich with the task of facilitating and managing the logistics of mass deportation to ghettos and extermination camps in Nazi-occupied Eastern Euro"

sun: Pisces
moon: Capricorn

Josef Mengele, "was a German SS officer and a physician in the German Nazi concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau. He gained notoriety chiefly for being one of the SS physicians who supervised the selection of arriving transports of prisoners, determining who was to be killed and who was to become a forced laborer, and for performing human experiments on camp inmates, amongst whom Mengele was known as the Angel of Death."

sun: Pisces
moon: Libra

Not to be morbid or anything but this is highly fascinating! Top famous men of the holocaust and all have a prominent Capricorn-Pisces-Libra aspects?! Isn't that weird...especially the Pisceans...furthermore Himmler and Mengele are basically inverses of each other Libra Pisces and Pisces Libra respectively...my bf is currently taking a Holocaust class and i curiously looked up charts...thats a very fascinating discovery. Especially given the fact that Libra/Pisces placements tend to be extremely nice and empathetic...its true

"Mengele took an interest in physical abnormalities discovered among the arrivals at the concentration camp. This included dwarves, notably the Ovitz family, a Jewish Romanian artist's family, seven of whose ten members were dwarves. Prior to their deportation they toured in Eastern Europe as the Lilliput Troupe. He often called them "my dwarf family"; to him they seemed to be the perfect expression of "the abnorm."

I read a book on the family with accounts of one of the survivors and I noticed some of weird behavior Mengele exhibited...despite torturing them as lab rats he constantly asked to be called "uncle" by the kids...

Just noticing weird patterns in history. I know i know morbid...

P.S. Pluto was in Gemini at the time of all their births. Not sure if it aspects their moons/suns definately not Mengeles moon i looked it up. A bit lazy for the rest. Ill try to do a follow up. Curious on ppl's ideas

posted October 27, 2007 01:38 AM            

Though as Morbid as what I about to say is, it certianly has truth in it:

Good and evil are POVs. A bad guy never thinks that he doing anything bad for in his POV he is doing the right thing. One just has to read upon the testimonals of Herman Georing during the Nuremburg trials to realize that.

BTW: Here is another intereting senerio:

Manfred Von Richtofen (The Red Baron; Ace fighter Pilot of WW1) has a Libra Asc., Taurus Sun and Capricorn Moon.

posted October 27, 2007 02:33 AM              

In conclusion it seems important to add some remarks which refer to Hitler's nativity because many astrologers have been reluctant to admit that Hitler could have Libra as his rising sign, Libra having the reputation of being a "harmonious" sign of the zodiac. However, the basic truth of astrology is that every factor in a chart can be either positive or negative, constructive or destructive. In fact the totalitarian ideal is "harmonic" inasmuch as harmony literally means the process of becoming one. The totalitarian state aims at unanimity, but this unanimity is of a negative kind and is based on the ruthless exclusion of all that refuse to be coerced into unity. Hitler's character was eminently Libran in a negative way; but his planetary ruler, Venus, was retrograde, in conjunction with Mars in Taurus, and in square to a 10th house Saturn in Leo. A very "strong" Venus indeed according to the usual astrological way of measuring the strength of the planets, but a strength turned against life.

The Sabian symbol for the degree of Hitler's Venus-Mars conjunction (Taurus 7°) is: "A symbolical battle between 'Swords' and 'Torches' " (Tarot cards.) Here then we find focused the battle between might and enlightenment which has been rending our humanity at the threshold of the immense possibilities which the Industrial Revolution — and now atomic power —have opened. The whole emotional and personal life of the Fuehrer was concentrated on that point; he became the symbol of this struggle for millions. The violent character of the way he solved the problem for himself and the world can be seen in the fact that the retrograde Venus was just about to fall, as it were, into Mars' arms: a surrender of "values" to "violence," of the "inner" to the "outer."

The conjunctions of Mars with retrograde Venus are special features of the cycle of the Mars-Venus relationship. At every fifth conjunction of Mars and Venus, Venus is retrograde, and this occurs about every 77 months. These special conjunctions have moreover a cycle of recurrence in the same zodiacal sign (with a lag of about 7°20') of nearly 32 years. They mark indeed moments of great intensity in the emotional life of humanity. At these times, men should be able to reorient their sense of values and their emotional attitudes, to repolarize their feeling of "I am I" and sow new seeds of action.

Hitler did this, in his own way — a dark way. Thirty-two years after his birth, Mars and Venus retrograde once more met in Taurus (April, 1921). The German Worker's Party had been organized a year before. Hitler was on his way to power, as the old cultural structures of Germany were being dissolved by inflation. Anything might have happened — even a great spiritual metamorphosis. What did happen is now past history.

posted October 27, 2007 03:00 AM            

quote:

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Venus was just about to fall, as it were, into Mars' arms: a surrender of "values" to "violence," of the "inner" to the "outer."

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See, I think its more like Rearranging the meaning of vlaues to fit a more harmonious environment. And well... As Robert Anson Heinlein said (and yes, these are actual quotes:

"Nothing of value is free. Even the breath of life is purchased at birth only through gasping effort and pain. . . . The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion . . . and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself--ultimate cost for perfect value."

"Radical and conservative are terms for emotional attitudes, not sociological opinions."

". . . [M]ore than six people cannot agree on anything, three is better, and one is perfect for a job that one can do. This is why parlimentary bodies all through history, when they accomplished anything, owed it to a few strong men who dominated the rest."

posted October 27, 2007 04:53 AM              

from http://www.star4cast.com/index2f.asp?page=aboutastrology%2Easp

This clearly means he had an Aries sun, probably 29 degrees afflicted Sun. In all probability, his Ascendant must have been Taurus, thereby creating a 12th house anaretic Aries Sun, which can turn sufficiently mentally ill to think of genocide and conquest as great good.

Capricorn is the sign of big leaders, big business and unfortunately genocide. Mao and Stalin were Capricorns with over 100 million deaths to their macabre credit.

Aries in 29 Sun and Capricorn Moon + Ascendant are certainly the signs of a mentally ill conqueror and that is what Ebertin saw way back in 1923 itself.

posted October 27, 2007 07:44 AM              

Sun:Pisces
Asc:Virgo (2 degrees away from Libra)
Moon: Capricorn

posted October 27, 2007 01:06 PM            

quote:

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Please don't heap the Red Baron in with the Nazi's. He was an honorable person. When he was finally shot down over Allied lines, he was given a full formal military burial by the English because of his sense of chivalry.
I'm sensitive to this because I'm a military historian, and my mother is German.

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Oh by no means do I refer to the honourable Red Baron as a Nazi or compare his ideals with that of Hitler's vile court. Red Baron's integrity and leadership that made his Jesta famous, lives on to this day.

posted October 27, 2007 02:06 PM              

quote:

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Hitler's current chart is bogus.
His true chart was sent to a famous german astrologer

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Oh, I love the smell of conspiracy theory in the morning!

You're speaking of Elsbeth Ebertin, who did not receive birth data from Hitler or anyone who knew him personally. A female "fan" of Hitler gave Ebertin the birthday, but not the city or time, and asked for her opinion.

Adolph Hitler's birth certificate shows he was born April 20th, 1889 in Braunau, Austria at 6:30 pm. William Wulf, an astrologer employed by the Nazi government, rectified the birth time to 17:03:27 UT and detailed it in his manuscript Tierkreis und Hakenkreuz.
Source: http://www.considerations-mag.com/articles/pdf/adolfHitler.pdf

From an interview with Nick Cannon:
"Hitler actually had the Sun in Taurus, yet for Ebertin to make her remarkably appropriate generalised account of Hitler’s future she needed to assume that he had the Sun in Aries – that he was destined to be the country’s great leader. If Ebertin had known that Hitler had the Sun in Taurus, perhaps she would never have been able to write as she did."
Source: http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/pub/journal/jour_mayjun99.html

Ebertin guessed correctly based on partial information. And what she "predicted" in 1923 was pretty evident at the time.

Look at the full prediction:
"A man of action born on April 20, 1889, with Sun in 29 degrees Aries, can expose himself to personal danger by excessively incautious action and could very likely trigger off an uncontrollable crisis. His constellations show that this man is to be taken very seriously indeed; he is destined to play a Fuhrer-role in future battles. It seems that the man I have in mind, with this strong Aries influence, is destined to sacrifice himself for the German nation, also to face up to all circumstances with audacity and courage, even when it is a matter of life and death, and to give an impulse, which will burst forth quite suddenly, to a German Freedom Movement. But I will not anticipate destiny. Time will show ..."
Source: http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/hitler'sdoggie.htm

And now look at Hitler at the time she made the prediction. Hitler had seized control and installed himself as dictator of the Nazi party two years previously. He had just stormed the Bavarian Government in an attempted coup. He had been giving popular public speeches on nationalism for four years. His Sturmabteilung had been in existence for three years, terrorizing anyone who disagreed with the new vision of Germany.

Had Ebertine made her prediction in 1919, it would be impressive. In 1923, it was just reading the newspapers.

posted October 27, 2007 04:38 PM              

" The world has come to know Adolph Hitler for his insatiable greed for power,
his ruthlessness, cruelty and utter lack-of feeling, his contempt for established institutions and his lack of moral restraints. "

posted October 27, 2007 08:52 PM            

Wow Astralmuse - thats crazy. Though Ghandi would never seem like a Taurus Capricorn to me. Too earthy and organized to have a non conventional method of defeating the opressing governments. Like for example MLK was a Scorpio and Malcolm X a Taurus. Tauruses seem to take a more straight forward fighting approach.
Its true his Uranus is on the ASC too.
I disagree that Astrologers should be reluctant to admit his rising sign was a Libra. All that means was that he had a charming personality that was able to cater to people's needs and persuade. Which we know, he was an amazing orator.

quote:

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Here then we find focused the battle between might and enlightenment which has been rending our humanity at the threshold of the immense possibilities which the Industrial Revolution — and now atomic power —have opened.

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Most definately he always seeemed to be philosophising.

Whalewasp - "All Quiet on the Western Front" is one of my favorite books. Its amazing!!! And i don't think we are lumping Red Baron with the Nazis its just that it seems the people who are remembered as fighting on the Axis side seem to all have certain placements. I don't think we will be able to solve the mystery here, just a nice discussion of ideas.

quote:

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I also learned from my political science class that Adolf Eichmann probably would have been a harmless, moderately successful businessman without the rise of Nazism. It serves as a reminder to be wary of how nationalism can turn otherwise harmless people into great orchestrators of evil.

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Ah here I would have to disagree with you. No one can be "moved" to act outside their limits...and thats basically in my view totally unimportant...I am not much comforted by the idea that people do not commit murder just because it is illegal. The fact that he became a terrible person after an ideology came to power doesn't say much for what person he was before. I do not remember who said this quote but it stuck with me.

"They say power corrupts but what I have learned is that it allows people to be who they are. So if they are a good person they become better and if not..."

I agree with AG on the Taurus vs Aries idea...plus way too many dictators are actually Taureans.

Actually Scorpio rising is unecessary because he is a Taurus and the Scorpio paranoia can carry over into its opposite sign. Not to mention he is a Capricorn moon. Capricorns especially moons can be extremely paranoid. My bf is a Capricorn moon and he can give my Scorpio moon a run for its money in paranoia and conspiracy theories. So Scorpio is not necessary. Plus paranoia also comes with the job.

And im a Libra rising and I don't really have dimples.

I think his ability to rally people and to cater to people's needs and emotions in his speeches is a best vote for Libra ASC.

Awesome discussion guys!

But seriously what do you all think about the other people having similar placements?

posted October 27, 2007 09:54 PM              

.. Almost all writers have attributed Hitler's confidence to the fact that he is a great believer in astrology and that he is constantly in touch with astrologers who advise him concerning his course of action. This is almost certainly untrue. All of our informants who have known Hitler rather intimately discard the idea as absurd. They all agree that nothing is more foreign to Hitler's personality than to seek help from outside sources of this type. The informant of the Dutch Legation holds a similar view.

He says:
"Not only has the Fuehrer never had his horoscope cast, but he is in principle against horoscopes because he feels he might be unconsciously influenced by them." (655)

It is also indicative that Hitler, some time before the war, forbade the practice of fortune-telling and star-reading in Germany.

It is true that from the outside it looks as though Hitler might be acting under some guidance of this sort which gives him the feeling of conviction in his infalibility. These stories probably originated in the very early days of the Party. According to Strasser, during the early 1920's Hitler took regular lessons in speaking and in mass psychology from a man named Hamissen who was also a practicing astrologer and fortune-teller. He was an extremely clever individual who taught Hitler a great deal concerning the importance of staging meetings to obtain the greatest dramatic effect. As far as can be learned, he never had any particular interest in the movement or any say on what course it should follow. It is possible that Hanussen had some contact with a group of astrologers, referred-to by one von Wiegand, who were very active in Munich at this time. Through Hanussen Hitler too may have come in contact with this group, for von Wiegand writes:

"When I first knew Adolph Hitler in Munich, in 1921 and 1922, he was in touch with a circle that believed firmly in the portents of the stars. There was much whispering of the coming of another Charlemagne and a new Reich. How far Hitler believed in these astrological forecasts and prophesies in those days I never could get out of Der Fuhrer. He neither denied nor affirmed belief. He was not averse, however, to making use of the forecasts to advance popular faith in himself and his then young and struggling movement."

posted October 28, 2007 02:20 AM              

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I think his ability to rally people and to cater to people's needs and emotions in his speeches is a best vote for Libra ASC.

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The level of charisma, persuasion, and charm he possessed was extraordinary, and very much inline with Libra. It’s quite strange that people so easily think of Libra with regards to the positive expression of the sign’s qualities, and so easily think of Scorpio with regards to the negative expression of the sign’s qualities. I’m not speaking solely of this board as I’ve read it/heard it repeatedly. Serial killer, bomber, genocidal cult leader? Well, they must have Scorpio Sun/Ascendant/Moon, then! *sigh* Gandhi’s dominant planet was his Mars in Scorpio, and the most powerful sign in his chart is Scorpio and he had Mercury, Venus, and Mars all in Scorpio in the 1st house. People probably believe his chart to be incorrect, huh?

quote:

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But seriously what do you all think about the other people having similar placements?

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Got Gemini? & Happy Dragon:
That OSS/CIA profile was created and published in 1945. In the 62 years since then, a lot of material and information has surfaced. Some of it relates to the use of astrologers by the Nazis in strategy planning, but very little defines the exact extent of Hitler’s use of astrology. By some accounts, Karl Ernst Krafft was Hitler’s personal astrologer. He definitely was employed by the Nazi government as were many other astrologers (some under force, some not). Goebbels absolutely used astrology in strategic planning. But Hitler? It’s just not definite either way – there are sources that he rebuffed it as nonsense and there are sources that he embraced it.

The British government were certain that Hitler had a personal astrologer advising him, so Churchill hired an astrologer to tell him what Hitler’s astrologer would be saying. Churchill also had his own astrologer publish a small book of false astrological predictions in German which was distributed in an attempt to throw Hitler off.

posted October 28, 2007 09:10 AM            

Libra may be a sign of peace and harmony but its also a sign of logical thinking and effective solutions. Couple that with the Practical-minded nature of a Capricorn moon and you will get strong and deceptively charismatic personalities.

Taken from Astroclub.org:

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Aries and Mars represent the raw energy necessary for individual survival, especially the desire and aggressive urges necessary to conquer the environment and to propagate the species. Libra, on the other hand, is the sense of relatedness, balance, harmony and co-operation necessary for the survival and maintenance of civilization and culture. For a group, a community, to exist and flourish, there must be laws, rules, and regulations to ensure fair and equitable treatment of all individuals in the collective.

Hence Saturn, the planet of law and order, finds its exaltation in Libra. One of the Libra functions is to prevent the primitive, raw Aries from coming out in individuals so that society can exist and run relatively smoothly without the random disruption of untamed Mars. Where Aries says, "I want what I want when I want it," Libra believes it is best to "want what I want, and make you think it was your idea." Libra is the diplomat with an iron fist in a velvet glove. It can also be indecisive, "I don t know what I want until I hear what you want; then we can find out what we want." Libra is concerned with strategy, thus providing the means to tame and channel Mars’ energy. Many military leaders have been born under this sign.

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See this is exactly why I say that Venus the goddess of love isn't exactly a rue symbol for Libra. Athena seems more fitting Lol! This is why some people are usually weary of a Libra's tendency to be emotionally detached and their more logical outlook on life.

And as you said Astralmuse; Hitler's top cronies did not think they were doing anything wrong and gosh they certainly did not behave like empahty-deprived murderes infront of their families. On the contrary, they were pretty good fathers, uncles, etc. I really would like to recommend the movie "Nuremberg" to everyone whose interested in this topic. Its quite a look into the psyce of these individuals and their outlook.

Geminilover:

I wouldn't be surprised if he did actually. Hellboy (the movie) actually takes his facination to the occult all to a new level. The movie says that Hitler actually joined the Thule Society; A society made of German Aristocrats interested with the occult dealings; He ended up possessing the Spear of longitis (the spear that was used to pierce Christ.) Thus his powers over the world increased.