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Author Topic:   I have something I want to discuss about using tight orbs for soulmate/ twinflames.
Got Gemini?
Knowflake

Posts: 1037
From: Mercury
Registered: Jul 2007

posted June 17, 2008 10:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
I have something I want to discuss about orbs and soulmates or twinflames. You see, the trend here is to only count super-tight orbs or usually no more than 3 degrees when considering someone to be a possible soulmate or twinflame.

This is what I quoted from another thread: "The most important asteroids in synastry as per current research:
1) Valentine
2) Isis and Osiris
3) Eros and Psyche
4) Karma
5) Juno
6) Amor
If most of the above are well aspected to the main planets as well as to each other, then a very strong bonding from past life connections is indicated."
"VALENTINE tells us about our ability to give chaste and sacrificial love to our spouse.
ISIS represents our divine feminine archetype energies of wisdom and Osiris the divine masculine wisdom. Their conjunction indicates a very evolved soul in the matters of masculinity-femininity balance. I have an ISIS-OSIRIS conjuction too. It occurs every 3 and a half years only.

About interconnections, we must use mathematical probability. Pls note that astrology is the highest branch of ancient mathematics, higher than Geometry, Arithmetic and Astronomy.
All of you, pls try to learn this to know which connections are relevant.
There are 360 degrees in a chart. For 2 planets or Asteroids to be in sextile, trine, opposition or conjunction aspect, the probability is calculated as follows:
Number of trines: 2
Number of sextiles: 2
Number of oppositions: 1
Number of squares: 2
Number of Conjunctions: 1
Total aspects: 8
P(aspect) = 8/360 or 1 in 45 chance.
This is for 1 degree orb. For a two degree orb, it is 1/22.5 ; For a three degree orb, 1/15. For a 5 degree orb, one in nine chances! Thus every ninth person will share an aspect if you use a 5 degree orb for the two planetary objects.
(Now you know why more than 4 degree orb is an invalid form for accurate synastry.)
For just conjunction or opposition, the probability is 1/360 for one degree orb and 1 in 72 for 5 degree orb.
Thus, if someone says they found a true love because they have a Mars-Venus conjunction of 5 degree orb, they are hugely mistaken. More than 40 million men will have a similar aspect and no soul can have 40 million true soul mates.
Now, this means we need more aspects and connections.
If A's Mars conjuncts B's Venus and vice versa ( a double whammy), the probability narrows to 1/360 x 1/360 or 1/144,000. This means only 2500 odd men can have a similar aspect. Using the principle of localization that the population is distributed globally across races and age groups, it would mean only 2-3 men in one lifetime would be met who would have this placement. Chances of a true soul mate increase exponentially with a one degree orb double whammy in a crucial aspect.
Now, if there is more than one 1 degree orb double whammy, it indicates a definite chance of a true soul mate. Since Ascendant times vary the fastest, one of the connections HAS to be to the ascendant or a relevant house cusp (5th or 7th or 11th).
So now, what of all the asteroids? By probability, if you take 30-40 asteroids, every 4-5 asteroids will make some connection or the other but you wont easily find a 1 degree oprb double whammy, which is the most accurate test.
I met my wife through mysterious circumstances. We have a 1 degree orb double whammy of VALENTINE and True Node.
And her Karma is exactly on my Ascendant, to the last minute (13.36 Capricorn). Also, we both have our ISIS-OSIRIS conjunct in different signs (once in 3.5 yr occurance) and we have a precise Mars trine Mars, a precsie Mars sq Moon and a precise Venus opposition Saturn. Only one girl born for every few billions can have this kind of a match with my chart and it can happen only in that date in that time in that particular city.
So look for such very precise and deep aspects in synastry. Other links indicate past life friends or acquaintances and hence will also show up frequently but the real deal is a one degree orb double whammy. That has been my experience after comparing my chart to thousands of others."
So afterall,i would say that to compare asteroids,we must use a strickt orb of maximum 2.5 orb,considering 3ºif a DW.
So in Sinderlou´s case,we consider the
His KARMA conj her JUNO/Valentine Valid
His JUNO conj her KARMA Valid
His JUNO conj her JUNO Valid!
HIS VALENTINE conj her Pallas is Valid
His VALENTINE conj her KIRON is a 4ºorb - i do not know if it´s such of importance cause regarding IQ´s explanations this would be an aspect occured about 1/360 probability."

Okay, after reading all that I can CLEARLY understand what IQhunk is trying to say as regards to using tight orbs in due to probability. Now, taking what he said and applying to a real life situation, say you met someone whom you shared a 5 degree Venus-Mars conjunction. According to IQ’s rules, this aspect is not soulmate caliber because the orb is too wide. It is too wide because the person would have that aspect with 40 million other men. BUT, and this is where this tight orb theory falls short IMHO, it does not take into account MUTUAL ATTRACTION. Its like he is saying that she WILL be attracted to ALL of those 40 million men and they WILL ALL be attracted to her too.

Even by those standards, of those 40 million, how many do you think she would actually come in contact with in her lifetime? Furthermore, of those that she does come into contact with, how many will she actually share a mutual attraction with? My guess is a humble not many. That is why I think the super duper air tight orb practice is flawed. I don’t believe that you must follow super tight orbs for when determining if someone is a soulmate or not. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe that orbs over 8 degrees should really be counted but I wouldn’t be so quick to count them out either like I have learned from you guys, the whole chart must be considered.

I highly respect and like IQhunk’s and Venusdeindia’s work here on lindaland. I love reading their posts and learning something new about synastry. I just can’t agree with them on orbs. I really don’t want either to take any type of offense to this post as I do not intend to be offensive or any other negative way to them.


------------------
Virgo Asc & Mars
Gemini Sun
Libra Moon (conjunct Pluto 0º in 2nd house)
Gemini Mercury
Cancer Venus

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Tigerlily
Knowflake

Posts: 387
From: somewhere far, far away
Registered: Nov 2004

posted June 18, 2008 01:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tigerlily     Edit/Delete Message
There's no need to be afraid to disagree.

In life, in astrology, in perspective and perception, in each individual assemblage point and paridigm and belief system...there is not one unequivocal truth.

What I see is that we are human beings and we're here on earth, in "earth school" on a divine and perfectly choreographed path of soul evolution...and as such, we can't possibly know everything - we're learning.

Everyone has their own individual perspective and their own truth. We are all souls heading for the same destination but many roads lead you there. Every soul is unique...so find your own truth. That's what it's all about.

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Lara
Knowflake

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From: London
Registered: Mar 2006

posted June 18, 2008 04:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lara     Edit/Delete Message
Got,

I don't agree with them on orbs either! I study Magi and their orbs are 3 degs too... YET, l have seen many times orbs of 4 deg's showing up in their dynamic.

I think IQ's work is great but having read a lot of this threads now l realize that a lot of what he says is "guesswork".

He doesn't fully know - neither do we... so if you fell comfortable using a 5 deg orb with venus/mars, go right ahead!!

my 2 cents

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Got Gemini?
Knowflake

Posts: 1037
From: Mercury
Registered: Jul 2007

posted June 18, 2008 08:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
I hear you Lara. I was just using his Venus-Mars example in my post but I believe that we should consider wider orbs for ALL of the points except outer to outer, outer to asteroid, and asteroid to asteroid. But even with them, as long as there are significant personal planet and angle contacts, I think we should consider some of the wider orbed contacts of the slow movers.

I just don't believe we should ignore a few aspects because they are 4 or 5 degrees when there are significant personal planet and angle contacts in the synastry.

Like for example, if John's Sun trine Jane's Sun 1º, his moon trine he moon 2º, his Mercury trine her Mercury 3º, his Venus conjunct her Mars 4º, his NN conjunct her Asc 0º, her NN trine his Asc 3º, they share a Sun trine Pluto conjunct and trine double whammy of 3º and 4º, his Jupiter conjuncts her sun 5º and trines her Vertex 3º, her Neptune sextiles his Vertex 3º and conjuncts his DC 4º. Needless to say, they both are VERY much in love with each other, have a wonderful relationship and feel that each other are their soulmates.

They have all those great aspects but according to tight orb rules, most of those aspects shouldn't be counted. Why? Because of probability. But like I said, I think that theory falls short because it doesn't take into account free-will and mutual attraction.

Here is another example: Lets say you put 100 women in a room with 100 men. 99 of those women are random. 1 of them is chosen on purpose. All 100 guys are astrologically compatible with the test woman. According to the probability theory, all 100 of those men will be attracted to the one test woman only assuming the other 99 were astrologically incompatible. But in reality, the one woman may only be attracted and feel chemistry with a small percentage of the 100 guys, and even a smaller percentage will have mutual attraction and chemistry with her. I believe that is how it is. We are not the sum of our charts, it shows the potential of what could be. The same can be applied to synastry. A synastry chart shows what could be, not what definitely is.

I have personally been attracted to some women whom I share no Venus-Mars intraspects. And I know women with whom I share Venus-Mars conjunctions and trines where there is no physical attraction at all.

But like I said in my first post, this is all in the spirit of learning more about astrology. I love learning about the new asteroid connections from IQ and Venusdeindia. I think they are excellent with their research. We just respectfully disagree on orbs I guess lol.

------------------
Virgo Asc & Mars
Gemini Sun
Libra Moon (conjunct Pluto 0º in 2nd house)
Gemini Mercury
Cancer Venus

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Lana29865
Knowflake

Posts: 441
From:
Registered: Mar 2007

posted June 19, 2008 12:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lana29865     Edit/Delete Message
Got Gemini?, I agree on a lot of things you say at LL and this is again one of them :-)

Astrology is just so much more complex than tight orbs...

It only takes one person to feel differently about the orbs in their natal chart to prove the whole theory of tight orbs wrong. You get my point?
First comes the person, only then the chart which is only a reflection of possibilities and probabilites. A million factors are at work.

In astrology you first have to learn the basics and then become creative and humble in all interpretations.

~ Lana

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venusdeindia
Knowflake

Posts: 1630
From: mumbai,india
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 19, 2008 04:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venusdeindia     Edit/Delete Message
GG,

quote:

I highly respect and like IQhunk’s and Venusdeindia’s work here on lindaland. I love reading their posts and learning something new about synastry. I just can’t agree with them on orbs. I really don’t want either to take any type of offense to this post as I do not intend to be offensive or any other negative way to them.


look at theses real life cases,
my parents
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/012888.html

a board member
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/015360.html

cash - carter

JOHHNY CASH - JUNE CARTER ---- DRACO DRAMA - Lindaland http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/014290.html

and my own....
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/014837.html


all above are soulmate- twin souls and have a lot of conjunctions and oppositions within 1-2 degrees.

there are loose aspects too...they are considered becoz of the tight ones..

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venusdeindia
Knowflake

Posts: 1630
From: mumbai,india
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posted June 19, 2008 05:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venusdeindia     Edit/Delete Message
look at my case, i have loose aspects like my venus his saturn 5 degrees...,we feel it and yes we have been lovers in the past lives...there are other loose ones...but if u look at the close ones....


his sun my moon 1 degree
my sun his moon 0degree

perfect example os spiritual alchemy, yin and yang...as linda said a dead sign of soulmate/twins...

also my mars opposes his chiron - 0 degrees,

but

my chiron his mars sextile 2.5 degrees.

i take this one even though its a sextile becoz of the first one, which is strong and thats why we can feel the other one. i have mars- chiron loose with a friend and we dont feel it ...ever.


other signs we have shared past lives and are twins and are meant to be spouses in this life....

all zero degree aspects only

his siva conjunct my parvati,

his kali conjunct my saturn at 15 libra opposes his Isis which is also conjunct my Karma 16 aries

his karma and child and lilith and Cupido conjunct my pluto opposes his Rudra exactly , all between 23-25 degrees of libra


my Rudra conjuncts his Pluto !!

better his Draco siva and my Draco Valentine conjunct on his True node !

his Draco Valentine conjunct my TR. Venus -chiron opposes his Pluto.

his Draco Isis conjunct my draco Vertex
My natal. neptune, spirit conjunct His draco vertex.

my Juno zero degree conjunct his Sun !!!

his Juno zero degree conjunct my Saturn.


i hope that helps you

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Lana29865
Knowflake

Posts: 441
From:
Registered: Mar 2007

posted June 19, 2008 06:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lana29865     Edit/Delete Message
Dear venusdeindia, even if you do, it doesn't mean it applies to all the planet.

I your case and in some or even many cases it can be so, but there are cases (maybe just as as numerous, I don't know) where the orbs and asteroids are not so tight but the relationships are just as deep and important on the soul level as the cases you mentioned.

I mean this kindly - you bring so much to LL and I always appreciate your messages and all the effort.

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Sylph
Knowflake

Posts: 2
From: South Africa
Registered: Jun 2008

posted June 19, 2008 06:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sylph     Edit/Delete Message
I just realised that after reading all of this I am thouroughly confused - and I have alot to learn on my path...

------------------
Bright Blessings
Sylph

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Got Gemini?
Knowflake

Posts: 1037
From: Mercury
Registered: Jul 2007

posted June 19, 2008 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
And to add on to what Lana said, while a couple may share a small number of super tight aspects, they may have a PLETHORA of larger orbed aspects. I just feel that while some tight aspects are necessary, the lack of them shouldnt void the possibility of a soulmate connection.

Example, if John and Jane had only 2 super tight aspects and over 20 3-6 degree aspects and several 2-6 degree double whammys, and they both feel the relationship is important, then I dont think a soulmate connection should be ruled out based on the fact that they only had 2 super tight aspects. Its like we would ignore the rest of the glue that keeps them together and feeling how they do with each other.

------------------
Virgo Asc & Mars
Gemini Sun
Libra Moon (conjunct Pluto 0º in 2nd house)
Gemini Mercury
Cancer Venus

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CoralFrequency
Knowflake

Posts: 1432
From:
Registered: Feb 2007

posted June 19, 2008 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CoralFrequency     Edit/Delete Message
Hi!

Once you're in a relationship with someone, a lot of these aspects would play out regardless of the orb imo

In the Venus/Mars example, I'm positive that if a couple had this aspect.. even at 6' deg, they would feel it eventually. The attraction might not be as immediate. Maybe it takes longer for aspects with a larger orb to surface.

I actually think it has something to do with in-sign aspects. Some astrologers consider aspects by sign as legitimate, regardless of orb. In a sense they may be right. I have friends who I've known for a long while and I *feel* certain aspects that are not there by orb. One girl's Mercury is trine my Sun by sign and we have great communication, even if they are not actually trine by degree.

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venusdeindia
Knowflake

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From: mumbai,india
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posted June 19, 2008 10:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venusdeindia     Edit/Delete Message
quote:

I your case and in some or even many cases it can be so, but there are cases (maybe just as as numerous, I don't know) where the orbs and asteroids are not so tight but the relationships are just as deep and important on the soul level as the cases you mentioned.

Furthermore, of those that she does come into contact with, how many will she actually share a mutual attraction with? My guess is a humble not many. That is why I think the super duper air tight orb practice is flawed. I don’t believe that you must follow super tight orbs for when determining if someone is a soulmate or not. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe that orbs over 8 degrees should really be counted but I wouldn’t be so quick to count them out either like I have learned from you guys, the whole chart must be considered.



lana, GG
no offense taken,but you are horribly wrong in your interpretations of what IQ and i have said.i have seen equal number of tight ( 0-3)as well as loose orbs in relationships (5 - 8 )the looser ones supplelment the relationship wheras the tight ones form the crux.the looser aspects dont constitue the core attraction but show up in interaction over time.

lana ,
its obvious u didnt read both my posts clearly at all, or check the links i had posted.i havent just talked about my case at all. i have dissected synastry involving real life cases in those links....
twin soul or soul mate loves are not for everyone. not everyone is spiritually evolved or even in need of such a relationship.those who are not spiritual are governed only by their inner planets uptil saturn. uranus, neptune and pluto wont work on them at all. thats why indian astrologers dont use trans-saturnian planets, or even orbs at all.
thats why not all aspects involving asteroids or outer planets work, as you will read in older threads on this forum....someone who is not spiritually capable or desirous of soul love is not going to be affected by asteroid Valentine or others at all.
for such people venus aspects with inner planets can indicate a good ,happy relationship, one that might last too..and maybe valentine,siva ,osiris etc wont work on them at all.
my parents are the only soulmate couple in the whole extended family.my uncles and aunts are all happily married, with normal synastry -- none of the above past life, soul mate - asteroid stuff, and no divorces at all.

BUT, like i said some like apples ...some like pears.
the rules that IQ laid down , i have tested them in about 25 cases of genuine soulmate /twin soul relationships.
a regular relationship with affection, attraction, friendship and maybe easy , less intense love is possible without loose orbed inner planetary aspects .and most of relationships out there...including the ones that dont last, or end in divorce have these regular, large orbed aspects that any average astrology book tells you make a great relationship.

soul based relationships are never easy or painless. on the other hand a soft synastry can lead to a beautiful friendship that leads to a long term relationahip that can last...and if thats the idea...sure

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venusdeindia
Knowflake

Posts: 1630
From: mumbai,india
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posted June 19, 2008 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venusdeindia     Edit/Delete Message
we have had old threads that talk of regular astrology and if anyone wants they can see those old threads to learn. then theres lot of sites that talk about synastry aspects involving planets, and most of them give easy orbs of say 10 degrees.BUT from all the cases that i have examined of forum members who claim to be lovesick and in soulmate situations i have found MORE than one tight orbed aspect.EVERYTIME.

the older threads also have posts that claim that larger orbs are not felt that intensely...
some members have had intense experiences with venus-pluto aspects.some havent felt a thing...with close orbed conjunctions !!!
we had a thread on venus-mars sexual attraction where a lot of members said even close orbed trines and sextiles didnt do any sexual good as compared to squares and oppositions that had them in heat.
which obviously means a DW of venus mars with a low orb does not make u a soulmate couple...a lot of aspects are considred,not one or two.and obviously the feelings are more important.

so basically point is...if you are looking to a conventional relationship you can always rely on regular synastry.

Or actually not rely on astrology at all, becoz there is no proof, ALL of us respond to synastry aspects identically.That Astrology actually works....
which means astrology itself is not to be believed in......

thats always an option isnt it.
i fell in love BEFORE i checked our charts... and looking at out synastry was a confirmation of what i felt..not the other way round.
THAT is where Gotgemini is misinterpreting me and Iqhunk. we dont say tell someone to check synastry , look at tight orbs and asteroids and then start a relationship.

I insist that any karmic , soul relationship will have saturn, pluto,karma, nodal and draconic contacts. this is something Linda herself asserted, as do others that an absence of saturn and nodal contacts, means you have not crossed paths with that person in a past life.
which means the bond is NOT soul based. and the couple are not Soulmates or Twin souls.
PERIOD.

Astrology is a Mathematical science based on probability.And what IQ or me say in above threads is not a guess, thats is mathematical and empirical theory and proof based on and validated by Real cases.by astrologers like Linda, Green,Hall,Rakela, Copernicus, Galileo... as well as amateurs like IQ and me.

so its either believe in Astrology , based on mathematical and empirical proof.... or not believe at all ..
i didnt ...until i actually saw it in operation.
my parents are still honeymooners, who talk on phone 10 times a day.
whereas others [ about 50 charts that i haved looked into ] with normal synastry have long bored of each other and are friends who share kids and a home. the sexual burn ceases ,even if u have venus-mars conjunction...all that is left once the heat slows down is love..isnt it.

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Purple_Chick_71
Knowflake

Posts: 372
From: Upstate NY
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posted June 19, 2008 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Purple_Chick_71     Edit/Delete Message
I have to agree that wider orbs shouldn't be discounted. Of course, the tighter orbs will generally be more strongly felt. BUT...and it's already been mentioned...you have to look at the synastry as a whole. One aspect does not a relationship make!

If you really want to apply the probability theory, you can do this even with wider orbs because when you start to combine all the instances of each contact that occurs, you can really end up with a probability that is quite small. Eg. let's use an orb of 5 degrees for conjunction, which would be a probability of 5/360. But, let's say you have 3 of those...you get a probability of 1/373248 (if I did the math right...it's been a long time! lol)

Also, let us not forget that you must always start with the NATAL chart...what may be an important, feel-good aspect for one person may not be all that important to another. Maybe Jupiter is more prominent in your chart than venus...and so a person nicely aspecting your jupiter may be a better fit for you than someone whose mars is on your venus.

Just some food for thought.

------------------
Sun - Capricorn (10th House)
Moon - Gemini (2nd House)
Mercury - Sagittarius (9th House)
Venus - Aquarius (11th House)
Mars - Aries (12th House)
ASC - Aries

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Tigerlily
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From: somewhere far, far away
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posted June 19, 2008 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tigerlily     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I insist that any karmic , soul relationship will have saturn, pluto,karma, nodal and draconic contacts. this is something Linda herself asserted, as do others that an absence of saturn and nodal contacts, means you have not crossed paths with that person in a past life.
which means the bond is NOT soul based. and the couple are not Soulmates or Twin souls.
PERIOD.


I agree with you completely.

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Got Gemini?
Knowflake

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From: Mercury
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posted June 19, 2008 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
Hey, sorry if I offended anyone here, wasnt my intentions. I'm just trying to learn more about astrology, thats all.

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Mercury2008
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posted June 19, 2008 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mercury2008     Edit/Delete Message
GG - I think I understand your problem, and I think you're being more perceptive than you're giving yourself credit.

It's the old problem of Euclidean geometry. Euclidean geometry asserts that only an object with an precise, uniform 3-D spherical shape can be a sphere. Everything less precise and less uniform is somehow less a sphere. The less precise and less uniform the object is the less it's a sphere. The problem? Where in nature does this Euclidean sphere exist? Nowhere. So why do we use an non-existent measure to say an extant object is either a sphere or not, or measure the value (i.e., lack of "perfection") of its sphericalness? The Euclidean concept of a sphere is an abstraction, based on human determinations and human mathematics. It exists only in the minds of humans. Yet we measure the world outside our mind based on such ideas?

This problem is carried over to astrology, which for centuries has been based on Euclidean geometry and its philosophical sister, Aristotelean logic. The problem this abstract idealism presented for astrology has challenged the progress for other empirical sciences as well. In recent decades mathematicians, logicians and other scientists have sought to find a resolution - a way of measuring the world with measurements that are based in how things really are rather than how we wish they were. Insight came from quantum physics and fractal geometry, and led to a theoretical approach known as "fuzzy logic."

Fuzzy logic states that there are rules to reality but reality defines those rules, and not our perception of reality. And because our ability to observe reality is limited, our perception of those rules are inherently limited as well. This means, if we try to perceive everything in reality by those rules as we think they are, we will observe things that appear to play outside the rules. Yet it's not reality breaking the rules - it's us blinding ourselves to reality by misapplying the rules with our human hyperexpectations. This is why in quantum physics and fractal geometry we can witness variations and phenomena that seem to defy all that we think is logical. It's not reality behaving illogically or chaotically - it's simply proof that our "logic" with all its equations and statistics and proofs isn't as encompassing as we thought.

This is why some rather brilliant minds came up with fuzzy logic. It's a way of contending with phenomena that outreaches our traditional sense of logic. With fuzzy logic, rules exist, yet some things which seem to fall a little ways outside the rules' parameters still are validated by the rules if it generally act and behaves in the same manner. Why? Because if something doesn't quite look like a sphere to us, yet behaves like one in nature, then we should assume the incongruity is more with our perception than with the thing's nature. Fuzzy logic allows that a "less than perfect" sphere by Euclidean standards is still a sphere, completely and fully, because it's the nature of the spherical thing that defines whether it is or isn't a sphere, and not our human perception of it. Confusing? Well a little, until you get the hang of letting reality tell you what reality really is, rather than listening to all those Euclidean/Aristotelean presumptions.

Fuzzy logic is something of a band-aid. It's only to help us overcome the shortcomings of Euclidean/Aristotelean logic that can keep us spinning in futile attempts to get reality to conform to our expectations. But it doesn't really resolve the gap between our perception and reality that has been shown to us by quantum physics and fractal geometry. We're still working on that bridge. But until then, we can use fuzzy logic to better understand things when they don't play by our perception of the rules, be it bizarre coastline formation or wonky planet orbits or strange electromagnetic phenomena or synastry aspects that don't want to cooperate with our nit-picky orbs.

For further food for thought, here's a quote from a professional astrologer, who had this to say about the application of fuzzy logic in astrological research:

quote:
At the beginning of this lecture I stated that the rules in astrological textbooks are neither right nor wrong - that they are correct if adequately understood. What does this mean? Of course you all have heard of "fuzzy logic". In fuzzy logic a rule not simply does apply or does not apply but it applies to a certain degree and, what is even more important, rules that are contradictory in terms of aristotelian logic can to some extent apply at the same time. Although I do not think that fuzzy logic will solve all our problems, the concepts behind fuzzy logic are at any rate a better analogy to the way astrological rules work than statistics. And the very success of fuzzy logic in daily life shows that our notion of natural laws or, in a more general sense, of how nature functions has to be altered.

http://www.mandala.be/declination/niehenke.htm

PS - Is GG did offend anyone here, then I think they deserved it. It's one thing to say "here's the math" and it's another thing to push irrational dogmatic thinking about completely unscientific notions like "karma" and "past lives" under the guise of science. Venus, I'm talking specifically to you.

Furthermore, astrology isn't a mathematical science - it's empirical science that has used mathematics as ONE of its tools of research.

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Got Gemini?
Knowflake

Posts: 1037
From: Mercury
Registered: Jul 2007

posted June 19, 2008 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
Mercury2008, thank you for that reply! You articulated in different words (and in a MUCH more eloquent manner) what I was trying to say. I agree with all that was said in your reply. I'm going to check the link tonight when I had some time and I'm on my PC (I'm replying by way of my iPhone so far today LOL).

But wow, once again, thank you for your words as you understood what I was trying to get at 100%.

------------------
Virgo Asc & Mars
Gemini Sun
Libra Moon (conjunct Pluto 0º in 2nd house)
Gemini Mercury
Cancer Venus

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Diandra23
Knowflake

Posts: 2240
From: portugal
Registered: Mar 2007

posted June 19, 2008 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Diandra23     Edit/Delete Message
Hi to all

I just wanna say that no one is here to offend anyone,we are discussing our theories and giving our thoughts,for reaching each other´s Truths in a peaceful way

My thought about this is :

I have been into Astrology only for about 2 years,of course still considered a newbie..but...as far as i have seen till now EVERY couple i know who i though to be at least SOULMATE couple,has real tight aspects ( specially conj and opo)within their personal/pers.;asteroid/pers.;asteroid/Ast. aspects.

I dont think wider orbs ( <3º) can be disregarded - i think that when tight important aspects exists - wider aspects are COMPLEMENTARY,and effectively felt!

What IQ and Venus have been doing isnt guesswork,as everything they stated so far is based on their own experiences and in REAL LIFE COUPLES they know!

Not forgeting the natals,as someone said,each person reacts diferently to energies and that shouldnt be disregared of course,but no one here said (neither IQ) to completely forget the aspects with orbs wider thatn 3º degrees.

VENUS is right when she says SM RElationships are not for everyone - i strongly believe that before Reincarnate,we CHOOSE..based on how much we are EVOLVED or not, in this LIFETIME..

I give my example:

What Was the probability of me meeting a man whose Sun exact conj my own ASC(0.08)? And yet,i found him in a random way like if it was fated to meet ( by virtual crossing messages after he had saw my photo in a site)...we are from diferent places,background and personality.

WHY the feeling of "Have we met before"?,when we 1st layed eyes on each other? The instant conection,mostly SPIRITUAL and not only PSHYSICAL?

Among with the Sun/AC conj.,i believe the looser ones ( Merc conj AC and Venus conj AC) really play their part here,but look at the EXACT aspects we share:

Moon conj CERES 0º ( strong effect cause its double)
Saturn trine NN 1º - fated
VX trine VX 1º
Juno trine Venus 0º
VX conj MC 0º
aMOR CONJ PF 0º
Isis/Osiris conj IC 0º/1º
Union/Destinn conj AC 0º
Eros conj NN 1º

DRACOS

my D.ASC exact conj his D.Saturn 0º
My D.Sun conj his Valentine exact/D.Venus 2º

Our NN´s are solstice conjunct each other EXACT...

I ask: what were the main aspects that payed MOST of their part on bringing us together? I wont say It was our loose Venus/AC conj of 9º,but mostly our SUN/AC exact conj,our AC/Saturn exact conj or our Juno/Karma conjunction.

Everytime i comprehend a little more about asteroids, i see they play BIG Role in relationships - If main aspects ecists between Main Personal Planets.

Just my 1 Cents

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venusdeindia
Knowflake

Posts: 1630
From: mumbai,india
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 20, 2008 02:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venusdeindia     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
It's one thing to say "here's the math" and it's another thing to push irrational dogmatic thinking about completely unscientific notions like "karma" and "past lives" under the guise of science. Venus, I'm talking specifically to you.


proves my point....that u dont get the point at all
talk about being on the wrong forum....
like i said no one is forcing anything down your throat. u look at a theory accompanied by a case study or more and decide for yourself.that said if u don't believe in soulmates or reincarnation why bother reading something that tries to validate that....be it me or someone else. or even being on a forum dedicated to a woman who wrote a whole book on twin souls and the accompanying astrology....

and thats not intelligence you know to choose what you want to believe or not......thats plain common sense.


heres an excerpt from a mail a member sent me in response becoz she couldnt post ...

quote:
have been reading the threads though, and some of them almost make me furious. I know that I shouldn`t take it that seriously.
But slowly I really hate hearing "It`s all a matter of opinion and perspective"; even though I basically agree, sometimes this becomes an excuse to include everything just because you want to have it.
AStrology becomes nothing more than a tool to wallow in your own illusions, but really not useful for getting a clear picture anymore.

Sure I can widen the orbs to 10° for a semisextile ("hey I have Venus semisextile Pluto with someone, that does mean I am his one true passion companion. Oh this is so much better than the exact conjunction of Venus and Pluto. Why? Because I have the Venus-Pluto-semisextile so the semisextile MUST be so much more valid than this conjunction,w hich I don`t have" *being very sarcastic*), and say it`s all a matter of perspective.
But well, if this is the way it goes, then I don`t need to do astrology. It`s a science for God`s sake, a science has basic rules, that apply, if not always, 80% of the time!
And it makes me so upset to see these basic rules being ridiculed.

Sorry, but I really can`t take any kind of astrology serious that ignores the basic rules. Of course we can discuss if these are actually the rules. But you gave excellent examples as confirmation of this theory, and you just can`t wipe them away with "It`s a matter of opinion".
NO, it`s NOT a matter of opinion. Not orbs, not the interpretation of symbols (VEnus IS the goddess of love and not of war or mind, and that is NOT a matter of opinion).

Astrology has always been a science which connected movements of the sky with earth, and this connection was found through "what happens in the sky, is reflected in the human soul" - so, to make a decision of this we have to 1. look to the sky and its actual movement (and New moon is ONLY about 6 hours , not 10 hours, not 18, not 24) and 2. we have to compare astrological charts statistically.

And it`s not a good way to start with our own. Of course we WANT to read that this one or that one is our Soulmate, or the one who will love us eternally, and so we will bend and break the rules, until they fit our wishes.
But that is not the truth.
I can wish for someone to be my soulmate, but that doesn`t MAKE him my soulmate, if he isn`t.

And a chart is more than just a list of what could "possibly" be. Maybe I`m too inclined to determination and fatalism in this, but I think, the chart shows what "IS"; if the chart sais there is attraction, then there is attraction. Period.
But of course attraction can be expressed in different ways. THAT is where free will comes into play.
And if someone feels attraction,a nd can`t see it in the chart, then for some reason he`s not able to read the chart properly.
Maybe I`m too fatalistic here, but I believe this more and more. Just look at the overwhelming statistic results "Progressed synastry" has (Westran`s study), it`s really amazing.
Or as you said look at those exact conjunctions and oppositions - they tell you something. And I agree, if you have some of these, maybe some wider orbed aspects may be valid, too.

Of course wider orbs are valid, but they are not the centre of the interaction.


Well, these were my 5 cents.



thats exactly what i have to say.
what can possibly irk a girl i suppose who wants to believe that rules have exceptions would be the need to believe in an illusion...we all love them dont we

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Got Gemini?
Knowflake

Posts: 1037
From: Mercury
Registered: Jul 2007

posted June 20, 2008 02:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
Look, I really don’t want to sit here and argue with anyone because I really done have the patience to do so. But I see I will have to speak my mind. Look Venus, I absolutely knew you would bring up "someone" trying to include wider orbs because they want to for the sake of including them for idealistic reasons. I must say that is incredibly cocky and arrogant. Its like you think anyone not on your level regarding astrology has no business questioning you. I started this thread because I have read with my own two eyes replies authored by you and others stating that aspects over 3 degrees are invalid. And in the quote in my first post, you validate this theory based on probability. Basically one can infer from your validation of the use of probability that aspects, no matter what they are, guarantee a specific effect in synastry. Hence the no soul can have 40 million soulmates comment.

I rebut that statement saying that it is highly unrealistic that someone would come into contact with that many people to have meaningful enough relationships with them to determine if one specific aspect always produces the same effect. It doesn’t make ANY sense and defies all rational, fuzzy, or any type of logic.

You then came in here and said I misunderstood you. Okay, I can respect and accept that. You then explained that you do actually consider larger orbed aspects once you have seen that there are some tight aspects. At that point I was cool with it. I decided to explain in detail where I misunderstood you as to kind of “peace it up” with you because you seemed to be offended regardless of you saying you wern't. You then replied with what I felt was a holier than thou attitude explaining how your studies aren't guesswork (even though I never said or inferred that your work was) and how these are the rules laid down by countless historical astrologers as if I were questioning the whole of astrology when clearly this topic is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT ORBS. I tried to explain to you that I wasn’t trying to be offensive but maybe that wasn’t enough.

Then Mercury2008 posted their reply and you posted your quote in which I honestly took slight offense to.

Though you and whoever wrote that email would like to believe that I and others want to include larger orbed aspects based on some silly wishful thinking or, as the email author so rudely and WRONGLY put it, "AStrology becomes nothing more than a tool to wallow in your own illusions, but really not useful for getting a clear picture anymore.", thats soooooo not the case. If you noticed, I NEVER once used an example of my own personal synastries in ANY of my replies here. (Hell, I don’t think I EVER on this forum said someone was my soulmate for sure. I may have said someone feels like they might be, but I don’t think I said said someone is my soulmate.) However, I knew you would perceive it that way. The way you came across in some of your replies here is that you think your theories are absolute fact and because I am not anywhere near as knowledgeable about astrology as you are, I’m silly for questioning your theories. You also come across like you think I am questioning orbs because I want to validate my own personal synastries as soulmate material by including larger orbs because the tight orbed aspects aren’t there or are there in small numbers. No Venus, I say larger orbed aspects should be counted because everyone feels things differently and to say or imply that everyone will react to a certain synastry aspect the same way is erroneous. Then you two (you and the email author) stoop so low as to insinuate that I and others who also question the orbs have no respect for traditional astrology and don’t think there are basic rules. How foolish is that? Now I feel you two are reaching.

I'll say it once again for the record so there is no confusion. I constantly see in threads that larger orbed aspects are invalid and people should only consider aspects under 3 degrees and if you don't have any really tight aspects under 3 degrees then that person is NOT your soulmate. And by your own admission, this is based on a mathematical probability equation. But therein lies the error. There are variables that I feel are important that are left out of that equation, namely free will and attraction. There wasn't many times if any at all where I read that larger orbed aspects are to be counted once a few tight orbed aspects to personal planets and/or angles were established as being present. This was the first time I read that from you. Could you have said it before and I might have missed it? Definitely possible.

And for the person who wrote the email, just know that I could absolutely care less about how you feel about anything.

Awww man I’m tired, let me go to sleep. I done with this for now.

------------------
Virgo Asc & Mars
Gemini Sun
Libra Moon (conjunct Pluto 0º in 2nd house)
Gemini Mercury
Cancer Venus

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CoralFrequency
Knowflake

Posts: 1432
From:
Registered: Feb 2007

posted June 20, 2008 04:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CoralFrequency     Edit/Delete Message
Are you guys (all of you! lol) implying that a soulmate relationship, if we define soulmate as a person you were close to in a past life, is somehow better or preferable or more meaningful/important to meeting a new soul in this life? I know you are technically debating close orbs, but there seems to be more to it.

I feel like saying - well GotGemini - what if your partner or future partner is NOT an old soul you've met before?
What if she really was a NEW soul you are meeting now for the first time? Is this such a bad thing?

In my opinion it's actually a very positive thing. Sometimes old soul relationships carry a lot of baggage. This isn't always conductive to a fulfilling romantic relationship. It depends on the connection and the nature of the baggage. You might even prefer a friendship with a past-life person.

I think Venus and IqHunk – you're both Cancer sun signs, right? ..I realize this is me generalizing but I see Cancers as closely attached to the past. You guys usually love old things and old friends.. so I can see why you would both love the idea of connecting with an old soulmate.

But for some people - maybe we'd prefer a relationship with a new soul.
After all if past lives did exist, then future ones will exist also, so this person will become an old soulmate.. when you cross paths in a future life.

I just don't like the idea of being soul elitist.. and saying some souls are in some way "better" simply because you may have crossed paths before.. I really believe we have the potential of a soul connection to everyone. There is nothing wrong in forming new relationships with new souls, and these relationships are not less special.

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CoralFrequency
Knowflake

Posts: 1432
From:
Registered: Feb 2007

posted June 20, 2008 04:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CoralFrequency     Edit/Delete Message
Sorry Gem.. I didn't realize how reowww this was getting!

Just read your added post.

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venusdeindia
Knowflake

Posts: 1630
From: mumbai,india
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 20, 2008 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venusdeindia     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
No Venus, I say larger orbed aspects should be counted because everyone feels things differently and to say or imply that everyone will react to a certain synastry aspect the same way is erroneous. Then you two (you and the email author) stoop so low as to insinuate that I and others who also question the orbs have no respect for traditional astrology and don’t think there are basic rules. How foolish is that? Now I feel you two are reaching.


ok again, IF u had read any of my posts correctly or UNDERSTOOD you would have known this...
i have said that a soulmate relationship has atleast ONE aspect..conj,trine sext...etc to qualify as so,becoz of probability as Iqhunk said.period.
all other aspects large orbed included are very much valid...nowhere did i say they wont work synastrically and are invalid.its just that they dont help the probability.
to make it clear..

one aspect each with a tight orb involving the inner planets and/or angles, and if u believe so asteroids.
thats all it takes , to qualify as a soulbased match given the constraints of mathematical probability, given you choose to believe in that either.
hope it sinks in.
also Fayte m. a member here is one person you want to talk to about soul clusters/ www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/015360
.you obviously think when i say soulmates, its someone who has a wonderful past life connection that goes all the way into the soul and an ordinary relationship just cant match. NOT SO.try googling on soul clusters and soul families or ask Fayte, she has done extensive research on the same AND you may want to check the thread that talks of her synastry, with her soul cluster mate.a twin soul is the split half of ur soul .at the time of inception into Physical reality which by nature being dual,-- a soul splits into masculine and feminine .its not some voodoo concept I am posing as fact but something that is based on the concept of Dualist metaphysics that Linda,Steiner, Einstein,Buddhism,Hinduism etc subscribe to...yin and yang....


i repeat nowhere have i said large orbs wont work, i said they are not as IMP when you are trying to figure out if someone if someone is a soulmate or a twinsoul...big difference there.
and FYI, you and mercury can keep calling my self expression whatever, this is a free speech forum , so feel free to rant all you want.pull me down, pull your panties into a bunch , do what you want. its your party.
the truth hurts and having been on this forum i know how personal psychology affects perception, including mine..

if you see threads where i take a case study and i dont take large orbs into account its becoz there are soooo many tight aspects .
look at this
Conjunctions /oppositions...all tight ones within 3 degrees.

Antonio – Melanie Banderas = 37
Johhny- June Cash = 27
Fayte M. /Hubby = 21
my parents = 20
my own case = 31
my synastry with my parents = 25, 30
lara ( u know her?) 49 conjunctions/oppositions
get it. ???

quote:
Then you two (you and the email author) stoop so low as to insinuate that I and others who also question the orbs have no respect for traditional astrology and don’t think there are basic rules.

no, again that is your perception. what it means is that my theories are based on the same premise and methodology that astrology was based on..to question the premise is to question astrology......get it ?
valentine implies love...thats not MY opinion that i am propogating as a FACT , thats an archetype right ???
what comes into your mind when you hear that word ? what archetype does it stand for in our psyches ???
do you think if i post synastry that shows soulmates having Valentine in tight aspects, to make my case ,i m being holier than thou...???
heres a real life example, my cousin fell in love with a girl and asked her to marry him 5 minutes into their introduction....and she said yes. they have a single tight aspect..they are not soulmates though becoz there are no saturn or nodal placements.
all they have is Valentine conjunct Valentine zero degrees.i doubt they will ever break up.they have no other attraction aspects in a 10 degree orb.
and yes it is a soul love, though they havent been spouses in the past. they will be soulmates AFTER this life wont they ?
now THIS is freewill acting on attraction.
which i have NEVER said is impossible.

quote:
I started this thread because I have read with my own two eyes replies authored by you and others stating that aspects over 3 degrees are invalid. And in the quote in my first post, you validate this theory based on probability. Basically one can infer from your validation of the use of probability that aspects, no matter what they are, guarantee a specific effect in synastry. Hence the no soul can have 40 million soulmates comment.

invalid for determining whether two persons are soulmates, either from the same soul family or thru relationships in past lives., period. NOT for the effect they will have.
there are no guarantees, that any aspect will have the same effect in every case. the probability argument was just to put across the reasoning, that you cant count someone you want to shack up with as a soulmate based on your infatuation and justify he is IT becoz you have an aspect that you could have with many. and BTW hormones affect perception .a lot of people mistake sex for love some until 40. thats true isnt it ???

that was the whole point-to induce reasoning into something as illlogical as love or in some cases a case of sexual infatuation that leads to disillusionment.u are free to believe what you want, i have said that and i am saying it again.

quote:

you would perceive it that way. The way you came across in some of your replies here is that you think your theories are absolute fact and because I am not anywhere near as knowledgeable about astrology as you are, I’m silly for questioning your theories. You also come across like you think I am questioning orbs because I want to validate my own personal synastries as soulmate material by including larger orbs because the tight orbed aspects aren’t there or are there in small numbers.

again that is your perception isnt it. if i act like i know what i m talking about and refuse to change my mind - its becoz i have spent hours of research getting there.i did not believe in asteroids at all. until i saw proof with my own eyes. i wont change my mind and the fact is i dont feel the urge to convert you or anyone to my beliefs.and its not like the theory is changing your destiny...gimme a break, believe what you want.the probability theory is not going to affect your relationships as you may know so i wonder why you are bent on disproving it and getting me to dissect my convictions like your life depended on it ???
again if my post was offensive it was not directed at you but at Mercury.

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venusdeindia
Knowflake

Posts: 1630
From: mumbai,india
Registered: Nov 2006

posted June 20, 2008 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venusdeindia     Edit/Delete Message
Mercury
quote:
Fuzzy logic states that there are rules to reality but reality defines those rules, and not our perception of reality
Although I do not think that fuzzy logic will solve all our problems, the concepts behind fuzzy logic are at any rate a better analogy to the way astrological rules work than statistics. And the very success of fuzzy logic in daily life shows that our notion of natural laws or, in a more general sense, of how nature functions has to be altered..

cheers ....you just made my case
my logic and the rules i came up with are based on reality - REAL CASE STUDIES of people who are soulmates... celebs, family ,members of this board.some of them have admitted to past life recalls of the past with that person. i have studied my own synastry with my parents who have been parents and family more than 5 times in my past lives...based on recalls, conducted by a certified shrink.and there are many of them in the USA . http://www.alchemyinstitute.com
the same rules come up. validated...

i have checked atleast 20 cases on this board,15 in my family and 10 from other boards, 10 celebrities and ALL of them substantiate the " Fuzzy Logic " i have come up with.
swoosh...ball in the net ...and game over

quote:
Is GG did offend anyone here, then I think they deserved it. It's one thing to say "here's the math" and it's another thing to push irrational dogmatic thinking about completely unscientific notions like "karma" and "past lives" under the guise of science. Venus, I'm talking specifically to you.
Furthermore, astrology isn't a mathematical science - it's empirical science that has used mathematics as ONE of its tools of research.

what dogmatic thinking am i selling here that Linda and others havent spoken of. ???
THAT was a personal accusation which is totally senseless ..pure donkey poo.
its not like i have the power to get anyone to believe my research, you believe what you want to, and what am i gaining from this Mercury ???
its not like i charge money for telling people , this is IT. live happily ever after.
makes one doubt YOUR sanity for accusing me of something the Forum's Muse Linda herself had propogated her whole life.

as for empirical science...precisely, thats what i have done...empirical research to arrive at conclusive theories,.the way its been done for centuries by astrologers. thats how astrology has grown hasn't it ???
but if i do it,and stand by my convictions i deserve to be offended ???

take your troll trash and shove it .

the first thing i ask when someone tells me to see if they are soulmates is, what do they feel ???
i dont push my beliefs and given you are a new member one can only wonder at your verbal diarrhea !!!!

you should try GU, if you are so bent on drama...snake hole's been missing snakes of late

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