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Author Topic:   Cheating ~ What are the clues?
lioneye68
Knowflake

Posts: 2868
From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2003

posted January 08, 2004 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lioneye68     Edit/Delete Message
I just had an interesting email conversation with my sister, a Taurus who's married to a Scorpio. She thinks he may be sleeping with, or considering sleeping with a woman that he works with, "Lisa".
Lisa calls him all the time, on his cell, not at home. Thismorning she was suppose to give him a ride to work, which was ok, since they're down to one vehicle right now, but he was running late and instead of him just having my sister drop him off at work, he called Lisa and asked her to wait for him, and insisted that my sister drop him off at her place. When they got there, he didn't even kiss her goodbye like he always does. She was very hurt. So this is the reason she so desparately wants me to come visit her. She's having an emotional crisis.

They've been married for 18 years, and have 4 beautiful kids together.

What are the symptoms of a man having an affair, generally speaking?

In my case, my guy started being really defensive and seemed to want to argue with me for the dumbest things. I think he was trying to justify himself. I wouldn't bite, though because I wasn't up to it after just having a baby. I didn't want to rock the boat, but I did find it peculiar. I just thought that maybe he was feeling a bit under pressure or something, and if I was sweet all the time, it would pass.

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proxieme
Knowflake

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From: Southern 'Bama
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posted January 08, 2004 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for proxieme     Edit/Delete Message
No answers, but

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lioneye68
Knowflake

Posts: 2868
From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2003

posted January 08, 2004 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lioneye68     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks, Prox. I don't want to alarm her or "feed the fire", and I certainly don't want to see their marriage fall apart.

It may be nothing, and I hope that's the case, but she'd rather know for sure. Know thy enemy, right?

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hooked
Knowflake

Posts: 118
From:
Registered: Feb 2003

posted January 08, 2004 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hooked     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Lioneye68,

Can she simply ask him what is going on? Sounds like it might save her a lot of mental anguish if it really is just nothing.

Since she is dealing with a Scorp, she might approach him by describing what happened and how she interpreted the situation. As a scorp, he will set her straight about her perceptions.

hooked

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lioneye68
Knowflake

Posts: 2868
From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2003

posted January 08, 2004 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lioneye68     Edit/Delete Message
Hi, Hooked
She has already expressed how uncomfortable she feels about this "Lisa" calling him on his cell all the time, but he just blew it off. He can be rather condescending and closed off too, and you know when it's time to drop a subject.
She's on her own if she wants to know for sure. He sure isn't going to come out in the open if he IS screwing around, now is he?

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sthenri
Knowflake

Posts: 1199
From: New England US
Registered: May 2003

posted January 08, 2004 08:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sthenri     Edit/Delete Message
Scorps are very mysterious though.

Maybe he likes the mystery of it, rather than a physical affair. It's a good time for both to see a counselor and if he won't do it, she's going to have to push. The first thing they have to do is start going out on dates again.

That's the only cure,
If he is sleeping with Lisa, or if you are sure then get Lisa's last name and do a background check to see if she's married or single.

I do not play around if I do believe something like that. If a Scorp is sleeping around he would have to be seriously manipulated into it, or drunk. Its a question of how bad does your sister want to know? Communication is important.

Once she has to go behind his back to find out things, it won't be the same. Unfortunately I probably would since I am the suspicious type. I notice that a woman who calls a lot is suspicious and if he starts buying her things, even dinner or lunch, it's not good. If it gets bad, Lisa will call your sister at that point out of desperation, or confront him someplace. If they can't get counseling and it's true, then all you have to do is wait for the inevitable blowup with the other woman.

The other woman, unfortunately never thinks of herself that way and tries to force a way to stay forever by contacting and confronting putting everyone else on the defensive. I would attack directly by going to her house immediately and knocking on the door, but that' s me, Venus in Aries, and Mars on the ascendant.

Natasha
Cancer Moon/8th house
Sag Rising

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Aphrodite
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From: San Francisco, CA, United States
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posted January 08, 2004 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aphrodite     Edit/Delete Message
I encourage hiring a private investigator to get conclusive proof.

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lioneye68
Knowflake

Posts: 2868
From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2003

posted January 08, 2004 08:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lioneye68     Edit/Delete Message
Natasha
Yikes! She can't do that! He works with her, and she's only just beginning to suspect. Maybe if she had some evidence or at least some pretty solid clues she could lay it all out on the table like that, but until then, that would be too drastic. She's not an intense person, really. She's quite sociable and docile for the most part.

Aphrodite
She may end up doing that if she has enough of a suspicion. That's why I'm asking what the typical signs are.

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hooked
Knowflake

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posted January 08, 2004 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hooked     Edit/Delete Message
hrm..I was thinking if he was being this obvious (and scorps are pretty good at covering their tracks if they really don't want anyone to figure them out), then it might be a manipulation to get her attention. But why anyone would still be playing head games after 18 years is beyond me. I hope she finds her answers soon

hooked

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sthenri
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From: New England US
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posted January 08, 2004 09:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sthenri     Edit/Delete Message
couples do, even after 18 years. I still say counseling or else because boundaries are everything in marriage, there is no marriage without a boundary, that is respected by both.

Natasha

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sthenri
Knowflake

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From: New England US
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posted January 08, 2004 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sthenri     Edit/Delete Message
I love how the earth signs are instantly ready to get proof, because we have to know.

Where there is a way, there is a will but fighting gets you nowhere. As for confronting Lisa, I don't see why that would affect his job, since she wouldn't say anything to her coworkers about it. She could just drop by for a friendly chat, or pretend it's accidental, if it's bugging her.
But that's just what I would do, I can't place yourself in your sisters situation because if I would be too upset if a woman called my husband at home or on his cell for any reason. I would want to know why honestly. The counseling advice is from experience, we started too late.

Natasha
Taurus

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astro junkie
Knowflake

Posts: 1468
From: orlando, fl
Registered: Nov 2003

posted January 09, 2004 01:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro junkie     Edit/Delete Message
Wow...

I'll give this a shot...

Signs for cheating:
Defensive
Distracted
Vague
No more tenderness

About Lisa:
Remember my 3 rules in life which I've never broken? #2 was "Never get involved with someone I work with..." This is in order to preserve boundaries required for professionalism. If I WERE to get involved, then one of us would have to get a different job.

Regarding her calling his cell. Is it HIS f'ing cell phone or his and his wife's cell? Common! Next time the cell rings, let the wife answer!!!!!!!!!

with love & support,

.gloria

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it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness...

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lioneye68
Knowflake

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From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2003

posted January 09, 2004 02:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lioneye68     Edit/Delete Message
Gloria, I think it's just his cell. She has her own. I don't think he'd let her commandere his cell phone like that. We're talking about a SCORPIO here. You don't get all bossy-boots with them unless you're ready for a do-all-end-all showdown. Maybe she IS ready for that. I'll suggest that.
I'll also mention those clues you listed and see what she thinks.

Natasha.. It's never too late to realize that your don't want to lose someone, is it?
Are you and Mr. Libra struggling right now?

I once read that a Taurus woman will go to ends of the earth to save her marriage, and she never puts the kids or freinds before her man. She's smarter than that. BUT...I know that my sister pours herself into her job a great deal. She's a trauma nurse and she thrives on her job - works long hours too. Maybe that has caused him to feel neglected?

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astro junkie
Knowflake

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From: orlando, fl
Registered: Nov 2003

posted January 09, 2004 03:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro junkie     Edit/Delete Message
I beg to differ...

You may be too close to the situation to relate to what I see. Or perhaps it is my objectivity from way over here... and please don't take this the wrong way... but it really strikes me very odd the way you describe this man's cell phone.

Notice that I never suggested any type of "commandere" behavior, nor "bossy-boots" behavior, nor even for a "showdown". Please do notice that. All I said was to let her answer the phone, right?

OK... example... the phone rings and she answers it for him... if all is innocent on all ends, where's the "attitude" you assumed going to come from and from who? (something to ponder - not a literal question)...

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Imagine you are at the mall with your girlfriend, and she asks you do watch her purse while she tries something on. Her phone rings and you tell her you'll get it for her. She trusts you implicitly, and says o.k. How do you answer the phone? Listen to how you sound when you answer it.

That's what I mean...


.gloria

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it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness...

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lllog
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From: Springfield MO
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posted January 09, 2004 10:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lllog     Edit/Delete Message
From a man's perspective who has been there, He's cheating. Its up to your sister to determine how she wants to handle it.

Lanny

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lioneye68
Knowflake

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From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2003

posted January 09, 2004 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lioneye68     Edit/Delete Message
Yes, I do understand where you're coming from, Gloria. I'm not really that close to the situation, other than the fact that I love my sis and don't want her to get a broken heart. But she lives across the continent from me, and I don't know what the dynamics of their relationship are like right now. I do know my brother in law, and I can't see him leaving his cell phone laying around at home. More likely it's on his hip or in his jacket, and it's probably set to vibrate rather than ring. It would be a clear threat to his "control-freak" nature if she insisted on answereing his cell when it rings. Hmmm. Then again, he may just casually say "Go ahead and answer it. I don't give a sh__." It's not like this woman doesn't know he has a wife. I think they've met on more than one occasion. They may even have a freindly rapport with each other. But that doesn't mean that he and Lisa aren't capeable of sneeking around behind her back. Gosh, some people sleep with their best friend's or sibling's spouses, all the while never missing a beat in their relationship with the cheatee. Some people have no conscience whatsoever.

Lanny, that's what I think too. I once read that when a woman suspects her man of cheating, 85% of the time, she's right. With men, it's only 50%.

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trillian
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From: The Boundless
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posted January 09, 2004 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for trillian     Edit/Delete Message
lioneye, unfortunately I have to agree with Lanny. He's cheating, or thinking about cheating. And if he's still at the thinking about it stage (which is a way to rationalize the phone calls, i.e. "Well, I haven't really done anything, so there's nothing to hide"), she might want to consider confronting him now. She might want to do anything she can to prevent it from happening.

I wish I had better advice for you...

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astro junkie
Knowflake

Posts: 1468
From: orlando, fl
Registered: Nov 2003

posted January 09, 2004 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro junkie     Edit/Delete Message
Lioneye:

WHEW! Very relieved you understand where I'm coming from. Remember, I've laid out those 3 rules in my life, but I've NEVER been married, so I cannot even IMAGINE with FOUR KIDS!!!

(Let me get this straight... he trusts her with his 4 children but not with his cell phone? Hmmmm....)

It would completely destroy me. One of the reasons I've been so cautious and have such HUGE respect for marriage. You know, there was recently some study on why so many women in low-income families don't get married. And at first you might think because they're too ignorant or something. But now they know it's because this younger new generation has witnessed and experienced so much pain because of marriage, that they RESPECT it and will not enter into it lightly.

So again, as an outsider, the simple scenario I gave of her answering the phone to me is THE simplest most nonconfrontational test of ANYTHING, including if there is any trust between them at all. You know?

If your sister's intuition, and your intuition and Lanny's and Trillian's intuition say that the guy's not on the up-and-up, well...

then I'll go to Plan B...

Plan B: She has EVERYTHING to lose, and must put the welfare of her children first. Better not to confront him. Better to discreetly gather information behind the scenes. If he's allowed a little bit of discretion as to how he spends every minute of his time, then so is she. Only SHE's not the a-hole here.

If I could, I'd tell her to keep her cool! Then hire a very good divorce attorney who works in tangent with a dependable investigator. Get a definate answer as to the guy's faithfulness. If he's cheating, she'll have to be 10 steps ahead of this guy in every way. Especially when it comes to finances, if he's going to be so f'ing anal about his little cell phone. Emphasis on LITTLE...

ANOTHER thing I wanna get everyone here to think about and please chime in on... if a man or woman is having virtual sex on the computer, is it cheating? What if he's having virtual sex with a 3-D animated character with big t*ts and open legs?

It's a brave new world ladies. That's why you see a fully orgasmic woman like me knowing INSTINCTIVELY she needed to establish some strict rules in her life early on, and STICK TO THEM.

Any questions?

with love & support,

.gloria

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it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness...

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sthenri
Knowflake

Posts: 1199
From: New England US
Registered: May 2003

posted January 10, 2004 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sthenri     Edit/Delete Message
Lioneye, yes we are in that "spot" I put myself there though and I will have to dig myself out eventually, right now I am at work. trying to understand why I am so disorganized lately.

A trauma nurse? That is very Taurus, often I put my work ahead of others and it has cost me. At the same time my Libra had to understand why, and it cost us time, but we never lost ground in our relationship. He saw he was being petty and how much a part of my self esteem work is. Plus he was underemployed. Now that he is volunteering and doing other things, he is more enlightened. Plus we got a new pet so he can lavish attention on the kitten and the kitten adores him.

We had to two cats but they were mainly mine. The other one is his baby. We are unable to have babies of our own which I think is the problem. Libras love to love.

Still if I thought he was cheating it would be over for us, the marriage would have ended with or without a piece of paper. You don't need a wedding to know, you are committed to someone, and you don't need a divorce objectively speaking, to know when the bonds have crumbled beyond repair. What I mean is that it's impossible to let a man touch me after he's touched someone else. I would still love that man with all my heart.

BUT the physical bond would be broken, and marriage is a physical union between man and woman. No I do not think virtual sex is sex, I think it's porn or partly porn in that it is not sex between a man and woman, and it's addictive whereas sex with live people is not, specifically marital sex.

Marital sex is a big challenge because it's boring and routine eventually. Virtual sex never is, and marital sex is a big challenge for everyone in a marriage. If it's just not fresh enough you can work on it. But if one person has gone outside the marriage for sexual fulfillment it's not going to work again because it's not marital sex. Sex is not sex as we know, there are so many different kinds. You can't say you are unfulfilled unless you are in denial, with marital sex. If you do it's because you are unhappy with your partner in other ways and are striking back.

That is very unfair for the partner because the partner does not know what's happening and didn't get one chance to improve the marital sex. The partner will feel morally devastated and may even take her own life because she feels so worthless as a person since the cheating partner (with a live person) will eventually blame the non cheating partner for his or her actions.

That's human, to find the blame, to find the scapegoat. I just hope it's not your sister LIoneye, because if she waits too long to confront her reality then her self esteem will be shattered and you don't get over this, not ever. Once she has to face it the hard way she will not be the same. IF you want to save her pain, and trust me pain is not good all the time, to help you grow, then do one thing. Ask her if she is willing to confront the truth, no matter what it is in herself.

Ask her to sit down and reflect by herself and ask herself what she feels, tell her to write a journal of her feelings day by day by herself and see if she can face that. If she can't then she needs outside help. If she can do that everyday no matter what happens she will have a record of what she felt, so she can look back and know she was not crazy. That will help her construct her life over again later, and keep her from going back to him too, if it's true.

Cheating is cheating whether or not he's thinking about it or not, if he's on the way there, it's the same as the next step. If he is not willing to accept the truth about how he feels, he needs to get outside help. He has chosen his outside help. He is speaking about the marriage to someone outside the marriage, he is saying I don't care what happens next, in essence pushing his partner away, away from the marriage union.

He is saying I don't want you in this union because I need time to get in touch with my feelings, which is fine but he is getting in touch with his feelings with someone who is untrained in counseling, and who is emotional with a romantic objective. He is straining the bonds.

I look at it this way, instead of seeing it as the woman has to fight hard to keep the family together, I see it as that she has to fight hard to keep the existing family together. If a man chooses to leave, she can't chase him. She has other things to take care of, other people to take care of, her existing family.

She needs to take stock to see what is her existing family and that is what she is doing with you Lioneye, gathering her forces to see what now exists. She is a survivor already.

if the man leaves emotionally and is in another woman's bed, and home talking about the marriage, I see it as that he needs that, and doesn't need the wife right now. While it could be temporary, a family needs a center. And that center is the wife, emotionally sound. The marriage is a union between only two people, so she did not sign up for polygamy earlier one.

Your sister needs to get centered emotionally, with her own therapist, or counselor on her own, and she needs to see her family for what it is, and gather it together to protect her. She needs to nourish and protect herself now, and her remaining family. The situation is similar to if she was in a lifeboat with her children and family and her husband decided to jump overboard. Whatever the reason, to catch fish, to swim to land, she has to decide whether or not to go after him, or stay behind.

Eventually the choice has to be made. the longer it takes the worse it will be for the rest of the family and for her emotional self.

Taureans have trouble getting in touch with their feelings and emotions. She is doing the instinctive thing, but you need to give objective advice now, rather than emotional advice. I would tap into another Scorpio family member? My mother is one and she was a huge help to me. She is very objective, "If he doesn't enhance your life, then why is he there?"

Or she can talk to a counselor, you can recommend it to her, because everyone needs one in a marriage at some point. That will be a big help to her.

It's not really much of an emotional decision anymore, Lioneye, if he is seeking outside the marriage union.

Natasha
Cancer Moon/8th house
Taurus Sun/6th house

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lioneye68
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From: Canada
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posted January 11, 2004 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lioneye68     Edit/Delete Message
Natasha, WOW. Can I just copy and paste and email your post to her? (and hope she doesn't get annoyed that I'm talking about it in a public forum...oh well, it's annonamous)

I guess she confronted him and he laughed at her. He thought it was quite amusing... the bum.

I wonder if that was just a cover up reaction??

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Sun_Scorpion
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posted January 11, 2004 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sun_Scorpion     Edit/Delete Message
Lioneye! I feel 4 your sister
I do know that Scorpios are usually intensly loyal and hate to be questioned otherwise, so maybe this Lisa really is just a close friend.
Maybe your sister could talk to him and say that she feels left out because she would want him to talk to her about things not Lisa. Him being a scorp should understand and reassure her or whatever.
I know both sides of this situation as both of my best friends, her a scorp and him a libra were together, and she really was suspicious and jealous of any of his female friends. He would tell me that it really hurt him that she didn't trust and he felt angry that she didn't believe it when he denied anything, and she'd say she didn't feel appreciated enough ect.
In the end they broke up a year ago and now she's happily with a Capricorn and only recently he's seeing someone.
So I don't know what to say to your sis but definatly she should talk with him, but she shouldn't sound suspicious of him or he'll ignore her. Its probably better for her to say she wants to spend more time with him and chat more ect!?
Hope this helps, and I thought everyone elses advice was fantastic, especially Natashas.

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FishKitten
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From: beautiful, hidden mountain village, BC, Canada
Registered: Aug 2003

posted January 11, 2004 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
He laughed at her when she confronted him? Not a good sign. Does he come home late after work? Is he spending more time than usual away from home? Has he suddenly developed new hobbies or activities that he does away from home and without his wife and kids? Does he tend to get a far-away look in his eyes and smile mysteriously when he thinks no one is watching? Has he started dressing better, smelling better, losing weight? All these things tend to accompany cheating.

As for giving someone else access to his cell phone...I don't know, Astro Junkie, I don't mean to put down your idea in any way, but wouldn't that be a little like someone else opening your mail? I am not the least bit interested in cheating on my man, but I do have the right to personal privacy. I live in a place that is so isolated we don't even have cell reception, so there are no cell phones here. But if I had one, I don't think I'd be too keen if someone asked me to let them monitor my calls. I can totally understand if you feel differently.

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astro junkie
Knowflake

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From: orlando, fl
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posted January 11, 2004 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro junkie     Edit/Delete Message
*his reaction laughing at her*

Don't now about any of you, but I've been around a lot of guy Scorp's, or if they have a major Scorp influence, and they LOVE to sort of torture women emotionally. And it's also a manipulative way to get attention, by creating a falsehood of indiscretion.

It's their way of keeping the woman in line or controlling her emotions, or for an insecure man who cannot admit he's insecure, getting reassurance of her love for him.

If I had 4 children with a husband who did not take my concerns seriously, I probably would have poured a bucket of water over his head if he laughed over such a concern.

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it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness...

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astro junkie
Knowflake

Posts: 1468
From: orlando, fl
Registered: Nov 2003

posted January 11, 2004 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro junkie     Edit/Delete Message
Fish - don't worry - I'm not offended - we are just expressing our individual views and most importantly, solve a lot of mysteries!

I think I understand where you are coming from regarding that stinkin' cell. But again, I'm NOT saying to MONITOR his calls, or INVADE HIS PRIVACY!! I see the cell phone as the one physical trinket which he may fully rely on to perpetuate this game. It's not one of his secrets he likes to keep in his head. It's a thing, an object, very much a focal point of his actions and reasoning.

Oh... if you only knew how much I respect other's privacy, and how much of a private person I am. But I CANNOT imagine myself being married with 4 kids to someone who would not "permit" or "allow" me to ever answer his phone. Not like I'm sitting there waiting for it to ring just so I can answer. I mean, that he would never under ANY circumstances allow me to touch the damn thing. THAT to me would be just completed f'ing BIZARRE!!!

I'm really not making "the phone" the issue per say. I'm trying to draw a connection to IT and this guy's reaction to it. I'm not advocating confrontation, or ownership rights, or infringement of privacy. Please do understand that. Even if my boyfriend's wallet was just sitting there in plain view, even if he wasn't around, I would NEVER be even the slightest bit tempted to look through it!!

How many women do you know who can say that? But that's me.

On the other hand, if my phone is ringing and I can't get to it, let my boyfriend answer it! If he needed to get to something in my purse, I'll let him find it. And if he didn't act the same way towards me, I'd find that too bizarre for words.

.gloria

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it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness...

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sthenri
Knowflake

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From: New England US
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posted January 12, 2004 12:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sthenri     Edit/Delete Message
Gloria, you are very Scorpio Merc, I understand what you feel, but a Taurus moon would never do that easily. Taureans tend to be more placid about privacy, giving in easily and respecting others. Taurus doesn't fight as hard for privacy, to a Taurus, boundaries do not exist in love, it's unreal but that's how a Taurus sees it.

Your perspective is good, but Lioneye's sister will most likely only do this when she is angry enough. Her anger will build slowly.

Yes Lioneye you can use my email anyway you want, Good Luck to you, and your sister,

Natasha

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