posted January 19, 2004 01:14 PM         

My heart goes out to you. I read your post and just felt as though I was there. Even now, my stomach is in knots and I feel the pain of what you endured. What I feel most, is that awful poing where you KNOW. That time, when your heart and mind are in agreement, but your soul wants to pretend the tradegy is not around the corner.

I dated a Gemini once. He wanted to get married in the worst way. We had been together for almost 6 months when I noticed he was slipping away. He would disappear for days, not calling, then there was look of shame on his face. I knew, but I am not as forgiving. It was over in my heart because I could never imagine allowing him to touch me. We had decided to wait until we got married to do it per his wishes.

The relationship ended with one last ditch effort on his part. He took me to his families place in Santa Maria. Pledged his love for me and then proceeded to get stupid drunk, flirt with other women, while his psycho dad tried to hit on me. His mother was a mess, crying about how she felt her sun had no soul. The night ended with me telling him to blank off, which caused him to charge me like a linebacker and I flew 2-3 feet into the back of a van (cracked a few ribs).

In my case, the relatioship was doomed with the hit. It was doomed when he cheated because my heart could not take that kind of betrayal. In fact, I sometimes wonder if the anger in my heart manifested into that one terrible outbreak of violence to prevent the relationship from continuing?

posted January 19, 2004 02:14 PM         

The fact that you have that sun/moon conjunction going on with him, makes me think you will likely stay together in the long term, but this will definately upset the relationship for quite a while. His sun conjunct your moon...his life purpose is tied in with your emotional well-being. He feels RESPONSIBLE for your emotional well-being, so he's well aware of the huge blow he's inflicting on your emotions. It's almost sadistic. I mean really... A HICKEY????? Who does hickeys anymore??? People stop giving and allowing people to give them hickeys in like grade 10, don't they???? You have to suck for a few seconds in order for them to appear, and you KNOW when someone is doing that to you. Why didn't he just write it on his a$$ in her lipstick?? "I got naked with another woman. Aren't I naughty? I guess you have to be tormented in order to love me. This is your initiation. Do you except this mission, or are you going to leave me now? (like THAT would happen)"

Of course, all this is disguised by the remorseful, sullen shell of a man who can't bare the fact that he's hurt you.

posted January 20, 2004 11:21 PM         

Let's see.. Yesterday I was stewing quite abit because I'd read this thread on Sunday night and some of it stirred up my anger. I was starting to feel like I had been too quiet about my feelings and I reeeaaaly needed to let them out. The thing is, I feel uncomfortable bringing it up in the munchkin's presence.. even though he's only two, as the little crab he is, he's suuuper observant of the emotional climate in a room and I don't really want to subject him seeing me cry any more than is absolutely necessary. He's seen me in shambles far too often for a kid his age, as his was the shoulder I cried on about his father's death more than any other. Anyway, that means that my ideal time for discussion is after the wee one's bedtime which usually means that Hari is half-asleep by that time as well since he works four days a week at 5 am in addition to going to school full time.. Last night he had fallen asleep on the couch while I put Q to bed. My opening line was "why is it that my urge to talk always corresponds with you urge to sleep?" It's nice to start things off with a laugh, IMO.

Well. I told him that I need to know I'm not the only one thinking and agonizing over this matter most of the day. I can hardly concentrate on anything else. I also told him that one of the most important things for me is to do what's necessary to maintain my self-respect. Thank you for pointing that out, P.PonderingFishMoon... You''re quote bears repeating-

quote:

---

"If I always know how to treat myself with self-respect, then I won't ever need to question my decisions about men."

---

I let him know I was still extremely angry and I needed to understand more about WHY this happened. Did he have any warning? What were his thoughts in the days leading up to this regarding our relationship? How premeditated was this? Did he get the woman's number that first night he met her? Why didn't he tell her he had a girlfriend, if not in the course of the converstation at the bar, then atleast by the time he was walking back to her house?? Obviously he knew what they were going back there to do. He admitted that he did know at that point, of course. He said that he didn't have any thoughts of straying before that second night at the bar with her when she stared rubbing his leg under the table. He doesn't really know the why of it himself and he's still trying to figure that out. He said it does occupy his thoughts a great deal and that he's being as open and honest as he possibly can. I do believe that he is doing soul searching about this. I believe it because he is the the sort of man that does soul searching regularly anyways. He's unusual in that regard. He certainly looks inward more than most men I know. He meditates regularly, has strong spiritual beliefs and is even majoring in transpersonal contemplative psychology, to give you an idea.

Really what this experience has taught me is that nothing is cut and dry. I used to believe, without a doubt, that infidelity would be a 'deal breaker' for me as well. What I've discovered is that every situation is different and you can't really know what you will do in a situation until you are there...unless you are a super dogmatic person that will hold on to a belief even if it is in contradiction with your intuition. Personally, when push comes to shove, I will discard dogmatically held beliefs that are in direct contradiction with what I intuitively feel to be the right decision. In my youth, when I was cheated on, my intuition told me that it was time to go, which was convienient because I had always been slightly distainful of women that stayed with cheating boyfriends. There was no conflict there. Now..the conflict between my own dogma and my intuition is great. I think that is actually what most of my anxiety is coming from. Well..that and the Scorpionic jealousy that comes so easily to me.

Remember when I mentioned that drunk woman that came up to me at the bar that first night to tell me that her guy friend wanted to sleep with me? Well, Hari brought that up. He mentioned it after I had finished telling him how my instincts that night were of extreme jealousy about him talking to that woman.. well.. more than him just talking to her it was about his body languge, the way he was leaning towards her so much. He said that it was ironic because earlier he had been really annoyed when I was talking to the drunk guy who complimented my dancing. Turns out this guy is head of recycling and composting at the university and is really into bio-diesel so I asked him for his number because I'm really interested in meeting people who are into sustainable technology. Aparently Hari was somewhat irritated by how much I talked to him and it was exacerbated by the guy's friend who came up to me afterwords to play matchmaker, He said that he was proud of how I handled that scenario though, because I eventually introduced her to Hari, sitting next to me, as my partner, to clairify that I wasn't available. The crucial point we came to here was that Hari didn't really feel like we were together that night. It was as if we were the only two people at the bar that knew we were a couple. It was because we were taking turns dancing and even when we were sitting together, conversation was sparse. Sometimes we sit in silence and he said that has bothered him from time to time because he feels like we don't have anything to talk about. He does realize that silence can be a nice thing too.. In fact he generally really likes silences and he thinks beautiful relationships can be cultivated in them. It's just that that was a night when he was in the mood to talk and while he was having a hard time striking up converstation with me, this woman had no problem introducing herself and engaging him in the conversation he craved.
It was good to hear him talk about the conversation factor because I had noticed this as well and was abit bothered by it. I also felt like we weren't really a couple that night at the bar and it was kind of awkward. Sometimes there are entire days that go by where we hardly say anything of substance to one another and it was something that I was feeling needed to be addressed.

While that seems to have been a factor in his motivation to stray, I don't think it is the whole reason, nor do I think he fully knows the all the reasons either. I do feel we are making positive progress towards understanding one another and where we see ourselves in the relationship. I got to vent, which was good. I also told him that I was worried about him thinking something along the lines of "wow, what a cool girlfriend I have who is so understanding!" and then going off to fall into bed with someone else. Lioneye, your thoughts here reflected mine... He said that actually my reactions have been kind of freaking him out.

Okay, I'm going to have to run for the time being. I haven't said all that I want to say about all the posts here but I'll have to get back tomorrow when I have more time.
To cut a long story short, we've decided to keep a shared journal. A place where we can communicate our thoughts in writing to one another. I think that's a great idea since I often express myself in writing much better than spoken words. I think this will help immensely.

Oh and Aphrodite, THANK YOU so much for that quote about God counting women's tears. Its beautiful and when I first read it on Sunday night I actually shed some additional ones. It's an immensely comforting quote.

posted January 20, 2004 11:43 PM         

Well... in his eyes you've ALREADY flirted with a third party in front of him. So that's done. But it still doesn't explain why he went so far UNLESS he's incredibly insecure and wanted to make sure he had one up on you?

No matter what, I'm sure you'll learn a lot from each other. And I think the journal is a fantastic idea. Good for you...

Keep your chin up...

.gloria

posted January 21, 2004 10:14 PM         

Cancer and Scorpio men can be very insecure, even babies about a woman's past. I still feel Jeff is a player somehow.

That's my opinion, but then I do not count those who have passed on as less important in life, their presence is always there and felt.

With the water moon/ in the 8th that I have, I know insecurity. Everyone thinks I am secure but when am insecure it shows. If you think you are not the right person for someone it shows.

Insecurity=dependency which relates to self assertion, and water signs especially Scorpios have a really tough time being assertive and protecting themselves. When Scorpios become assertive they think are dependent and become hostile towards the idea. Being assertive is the best medicine, but it takes lots of time to learn.

All people seek out others to act out their own fantasies, and wishes, if we are not self assertive, those people lead us. Scorpios also have an active imagination and fantasy life, but the self assertion only comes with age. I have met immature Scorpios and mature Scorpios (in age) and I prefer the mature ones.

Another reason I do not want to live with someone again without a total commitment in my heart, without any doubt that I am the right one for the job, That's my 2 cents.

posted January 21, 2004 10:55 PM         

And you'll be proud to know that I'm thinking along the same lines too now. Every day that goes by now, these REALLY difficult days lately where I don't even want to get out of bed... I know I'm going to hold out for the whole committment thing too. No living together.

As women we might get some free house repairs for a while, or a human bulldog to protect us, but in the longrun, it's always OUR heart that ultimately gets put on the line.

No free maid service...

.gloria

posted January 21, 2004 11:12 PM         

When I was at the hospital, I felt a sickening mixture of crippling pain in my heart combined with a confusing sense of relief. It was as if I could hear his voice in my head telling me I would find love again. I thought my heart would be broken forever but he was telling me my heart would mend and I would find the right man to love me in ways that he had failed.

As difficult as it was to live with Jeff, I had no doubt that we had loved many times in many guises through many lives and I know we will meet again.
Our love was very spiritual...it did, however lack in physical and mental regards. Ways in which I feel are fulfilled by Hari.
So, you perhaps can imagine the rush of energy that ran up my spine the first time I saw Hari's chart.. that he has a Gemini moon only one degree ahead of Jeff's.. Additionally, Hari's moon is in the 12 house of Pisces.
Which I think contributed to him getting so intoxicated that he lost touch with himsELF. That's the danger of mixing 12th house moons with intoxicating substances.

posted January 22, 2004 01:18 AM         

I hope you make it the rest of the way across the bridge safe and whole...

with love & support,

.gloria

posted January 22, 2004 09:42 AM         

Gambling is a pretty touchy subject, because that can be an entirely different kind of betrayal that still hurts. Early 1969 has some aspects regarding escapism, and lack of physical warmth. I can see why you like Hari because he offers the physical warmth that you need. 12th house moons you are right have a challenge with alcohol, and are usually miserable when they drink anyway.

Hari may be projecting a fear that you have left him, or will leave him for someone else and then loses himself in alcohol. Emotions run around, for him it would be like a major hormone surge.

posted January 22, 2004 11:16 AM         

I suspect you may be on to something regarding Hari's insecurities about losing me. It seems strange to me that he would fear that, considering that I hardly ever leave the house, and when I do go out and socialize, he's with me.. But I am something of a flirt when we are out. Not really intentionally, it's just that when I talk to a person, anyone, I give them my full attention and smile warmly alot. It's just the way I communicate. It's not that I am necessarily interested in a person in THAT way, but they usually take it to mean that. Like when we were at our friend's cabin last weekend watching football, I was talking to this 70 year old alcoholic mountain hermit about philosophy- he was a highly intelligent and facinating person it turned out, and he even commented, semi-jokingly that I should be careful about giving old men the wrong idea. It was silly, but an example of something that happens to me often. Really though, when I flirt with a person, there is NO doubt about how I feel, it emanates from me.. Strangers don't know the difference though, and I'm definetly friendlier than the average woman with just about anyone that crosses my path, regardless of how wierd or unattractive a person may be.

Although he doesn't express it, I know Hari is fraught with insecurity at times. It's all that 6th house energy that I think causes him to lack confidence in himself. I figured that he could be confident in my love for him though. I mean, we've got that great Mars/Venus sysnastry going on. My Mars conjoined his Venus and his Mars conjoined my Venus by sign. I suspect that has alot to do with feeling he was literally MADE for me, if I could be so cheesey.

I think I will address this potenial fear of his and see what he thinks.

posted January 24, 2004 12:47 PM         

I was extraordinarily drunk. More drunk than I've been in many years. Stumbling, falling down drunk. I fell down and twisted my ankle badly to boot. I sort of felt like that was my punishment to myself.
I feel hypocritical. I went out for girls night with our neighbor and said I wouldn't be out all night. The exact same thing he did to me, I ended up stumbling in at 3:30 without a phone call all night long. All day on Friday I could tell that Hari was angry with me. We hardly spoke at all to eachother. It didn't help that I was waaay hung over.. I could sense that he knew. Turns out our neighbor mentioned it at work and it got back to Hari by midday.. damn small town gossip cr@p. I didn't know that until I brought it up late that night. There was no way I could go to sleep with things feeling so awful between us. He was furious. It was really weird because he described his anger much more than I had when I was in that place. He was saying EXACTLY what I had felt about him screwing that woman. I was saying some of the same things as he had, too. I truly had not planned on that happening. I really didn't even want to go out that night but I had made these plans ahead of time and did't want to be rude. Hari asked all sorts of questions about details. It was just what I had felt like doing and still feel like doing from time to time but I don't think that knowing the details of his night would make it any easier for me to deal with, I think it would even make me more disgusted and angry because I would be able to picture it all that much more vividly.
I think that I had gotten so drunk that my vengeful Scorpio moon was allowed free reign and I gave in to it's lower instincts. Normally I am Not At All a vengeful person.
Another thing is that perhaps I needed to go through a similar experience as Hari to be able to better understand how he could have done such a thing. I had forgotton what it's like to be soo drunk. Now I know and it makes it easier for me to let go of my resentments of him and answer some of the questions for myself, in a way he couldn't have answered them.

Also, it was a wierd combination of sadness and remorsefulness that I put Hari through the exact same gauntlet of emotions that I had felt but also very satisfying to hear him voice everything that I had felt so strongly. I had felt as though he didn't truly understand the enormity of what I was going through and now I know he must understand because he's feeling it too.

posted January 24, 2004 02:06 PM         

So you did turn the tables as I had suggested/predicted...

If you want a reason for why you did this, I agree a PART may have been so you could see things from HIS drunken perspective. It was also an exercise in accepting that nothing in life works out perfectly, including your "kind of" fun night out.

But more importantly, in my humble opinion, I think the real reason was to end the painful wishy-washiness you were putting yourself through!

It worked!

The only way he would understand what you felt, and the only way you could replace your resentment for him, was to GIVE HIM THE GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to see what the hurt felt like for you.

Welcome to the "stalemate" phase.

Listen to me... if you take on MORE guilt and resentment due to YOUR night out, you will eventually implode within this relationship. Move on as if you've already digested everything. Let it be HIS black cloud following him everywhere.

I'm telling you. If you don't let it go, it will catch up to you later and you will implode. You are a free, independent woman, capable of taking full responsibility for you actions. So it wasn't a perfect night out for you, but is anything in life ever really perfect?

Now the ball's in his court.

Remember, you didn't start this... it's really always been HIS trip from the beginning, not your's.

with love & support,

.gloria

posted January 25, 2004 03:10 PM         

If that's truly what happened in his case as well, then maybe daddy Saturn in trying to tell you both to ease up on the booze.

posted January 25, 2004 05:21 PM         

I have an 8th house Cancer Moon and it's a singleton. I have experience in vindication. The best revenge is living well, you must remember that. That is the most important fact for a Scorpio moon or 8th house moon to remember. Do not pass up opportunities to have a good life, you will do this automatically to punish yourself.

When you are angry you are angry at yourself, when you are happy with others, you are happy with yourself, separation is impossible, don't try to change! just accept how you are.

Accept and love your Scorpio moon and embrace it's energy. I know how hard it is, but you must not get angry and stay angry at anyone, I don't care what they do. That anger is not necessary. Let it go, no matter how long you've had it, it's been too long, do not allow hurts to settle into you and become part of you otherwise you will have to try hard to forgive that part of yourself that "let" this happen. You do not control others!

You can't control how other people feel, act or behave and vice versa!

I have said that so many times, I wanted to be in your shoes and it caused me to be vindictive towards others and myself. I have learned to never get angry for more than a day no matter what the cause, I can't hold on to it and live well.

Some people can live with hurts, but Scorpio moons cannot. Accept and Forgive the World for visiting you with these challenges. They've passed so you can be prepared for new ones. Even though a door has closed a new one has opened so you do not have time to mourn or grieve anymore. The 8th house can be a graveyard, littered with tombstones of past hurts. Do not allow yourself to be hurt by your own hand.

Do not hurt others, do not hurt yourself.
Take Care of yourself,
I really think you and Hari need some time apart, living apart, because the stress of living together makes it difficult to work on the relationship. Try a temporary separation for about a week, or even a weekend. It won't hurt, you can both relax into yourselves and you will be better off. Don't worry about him as long as you are happy he will be.

posted January 25, 2004 09:35 PM         

"Journey of marriage
needs destination"
by David Sanford

Marriage is a journey, you say. But a journey towards what? What is the purpose of your journey? Toward what goal are you moving? If you don't know, what chance do you have of ever getting there? For many people, the marital journey is about growth-less conflict, more harmony, less criticism, more acceptance, more affection.

The more clear and specific you can be about the marriage you want to build, the more liekly it is that the journey will be productive and that you will reach your goal not impossible perfection but a relationship that is clearly more developed in the ways that matter to you than the one you started out with.

Here listed are the important dimensions of a couple relationship. As you read through the list, skip the ones that do not seem like issues to you, infavor of those aspects of your marriage that stand out as clearly needing work, either because the relationship feels depressingly incomplete without them or because the interaction between you and your partner regularly and painfully confronts you with our inadequacy in that area.

If you partner joins you in being willing to work for a better marriage, then you should both complete the inventory. Any area that either checks as important, is also important to the relationship. The more you can accept each other's sense of what needs work, the more powerful your focus becomes, because you share the same genral goals for your marriage.

How affectionate are you with each other? How much caring and appreciateion do you experience between you? How accepting are you of each other's limitations? How well does each understand the other? How understood do you feel? Are you fundamentally interested in each other? Do you fundamentally accept the differences between you that are not likely to change? Or do those differences regularly cause irritation or worse?

How intimate if you relationship? How close do you feel to each other? Are you happy with your sexual relationship with the frequency of sex, with your enjoyment of it, with the meaning that you derive from it?

Is yours a fundamentally honest and trusting relationship? On balance are you more positive or more negative in your attitudes and behavior toward each other? Would you call your relationship more cooperative or more competitive? And with what consequences? Are power and authority pretty much balanced between you? Or do you experience that one of you has a good deal more power and authority than the other?

How satisfied are you with the role that each occupies in the relationship? In your judgment is the relationship fair and equal on the whole? Do you feel respected by your partner? Do you respect that person overall?

When you need to be, are you assertive about promotiong your legitimate interests and protecting your boundaries? Do you feel basically that your partner respects your boundaries and makes room for you to be assertive when doing so is clearly important to you?

How well do you and your partner manage conflict? How much is the relationship free from or infested with criticsm and blame? How skillful are the two of you at negotiation and problem solving? Are the issues that need resolving adequately dealt with, or do they remain to burden the relationship?

How do you assess your communication skils? Do you share easily with each other? Do you enjoy conversation together? Do you like each other's company? Do you have fun together? Are you genrally satisfied with the ways in which you feed the relationship and keep it vital? apart from the relationship that you share, are you individually sustained by meaningful work, friends and family exercise, personal interests and your own spiritual life?

Do you hold important values in common? Do you work well together raising your childten? Is your relationship relatively free from family conflicts? When you fight or otherwise hurt each other, do you have adequate means of making up? Do you have an effective way of healing the relatiionship when it has been injured?Are you committed to each other and to the marriage? Do you love each other?

Dr David Sanford, has a website at marriagesupport.com

From me
Commitment is a Journey, if you are drawn to each other there must be a reason, working out why it works or doesn't can take a while and nobody expects you to figure it out on your own. you are young and there is a lot of help out. You are going to be in a relationship with another person your entire life, so don't give up on trying to understand why you want one, and what your goals are. I am not saying roll over physically but open your mind.

Take Care,
Natasha
Taurus

posted January 25, 2004 10:32 PM         

From a girl who has yet to take the "big plunge" thank you for the tips. It makes a lot of sense to me and they are realistic questions which will not antagonize.

.gloria

posted January 25, 2004 10:38 PM         

Thank you for the wise words. I don't have time to write much but I just wanted to let you all know that it means so much to me to come here and read what you've all written.

The last couple days have been hard but today Hari and I had a really good talk that eased alot of tension and I can feel the warmth coming back between us. Hopefully the kiddo will be able to spend a couple days at a relative's place so we can focus on one another more.

I'll get back with more soon!

p.s. I'm really happy because I even told him that I've been talking about this here at LL. I was kinda freaked out that he would feel his privacy was invaded but the confession of it sort of flowed out in the course of the conversation and he wasn't upset at all. *whew* I was feeling weird about keeping that from him..