posted September 21, 2005 04:29 AM         

I suppose practice makes perfect,,,,,haha.....I am now only too aware of the "pull" and have had a huge karmic lesson.... with a debt to pay....when I wasnt listening to this lesson, life went against me......but now I KNOW........

Hope others recognise the dangers, at times, of this pull.....although having said that.....we sometimes only resolve karma thro pain...eeekkkk !!

Of course ultimately unconditional love shines thro when you get past the yearning, memory, lust, or whatever form this particular karma takes.....when you work thro the karma and LET GO.......the feeling changes.

love to all

posted September 21, 2005 03:12 PM         

That kind of stuff just drives me crazy and makes me so sad. Like when you watching one of those Romantic Epic Mini series on Women's Entertainment and these two people love each other, but never tell eachother how they feel, out of some fear of rejection or something and find out years and years later after all this grief and unnessary anquish, aaahhhhh! That is why I try to be open and honest and Expressive because I don't want to miss anything important.

posted September 22, 2005 02:21 PM         

It is sad but.. after giving this topic some further thought and going back and reading the wise comments shared on this thread again (thank you), I agree with planet and sue. We need to be careful. That whatever the "pull" is... or how it has "shown up" might be a lesson and I need to pay attention. I believe it is huge.. in our lives-- Past- present and future.
It has most certainly been painful.

posted September 23, 2005 01:51 AM         

Soul mates, and especially our twin soul, come into our lives to help us grow, and growth isn't always a pleasant experience at the time tho it's usually rewarding in the end. Unfortunately the bond that inspires that deep connection you seem to feel from the very first moment also passes along other information... seems that sometimes our soul mates get a "sense" of what they're going to be dealing with and run from the hills! LOL

posted September 23, 2005 10:43 AM         

Thank you for your thoughts and Welcome!
I am rather new here myself and have learned volumes. There are a lot of very supportive people here.

I loved the link you posted. I couldn't help but cry awhile. This is good for me though. I tend to keep it inside for a long time.
I am with a wonderful man. I have to be grateful. We are comfortabe together and we find a way to reinvent things in order to keep things fresh. I believe that it is very important with long term relationships. We have small children...
and so the story goes....

When I first met the Scorpio, we were both very young.. me especially. I was not aware of myself then (hope that makes sense). Life was a big party and looking back with my pictoral memory, I missed so much of what was going on around me. It wasn't until i was in my thirties that i came to realize that life is a cosmic mission. And there it was.. presented to me again...

posted September 23, 2005 03:00 PM         

I so "felt" your words Stargazer.....I too like you have been blessed/cursed with such a profound "encounter", and my answer to your question is......time, patience, healing and love

Thanks for posting.....you moved me....and "rocked" my world for a while.

posted September 25, 2005 05:28 PM         

Thank you for your support... its a blessing to me to know that others have felt or do feel the same...

I actually feel better already... i mean a little bit..Writing those words was the first i've breathed it to anyone. That in itself may be the hardest part of all.
I feel selfish and don't want those close to me to have a bad opinion... maybe thats a virgo thing. I don't know? I do know that saying it out loud and letting myself fully feel the pain is the first step on a long road.
My husband is a Cancer and very intuitive. I can't walk around with all these emotions smeared all over my face as he would surely be asking questions. I feel sneaky too. Its just a mess. But like you said... Time, patience love....I'll get through it..

posted October 12, 2005 08:08 AM         

At first, when I read the first entry in this thread, I wanted to laugh histerically... Same story here… It seems to be a joke, a cruel joke that is not even funny and makes you laugh out of dispair and self-pity.

Another Virgo here. But this one is just tired and doesn’t understand. All I have done in my 28 year long life is letting go. And I still don’t understand. I wanted to be brave. I stood the ground, I was also terrified, but I was ready to fight for them. They ran. Now I also want to run. After 3 heartbreaks I have had enough.

Letting go is not comforting. It’s just the only thing that gives you back some dignity. And some rest. It’s not a choice. It’s the only thing you end up being able to do.

I’m angry. Quite rightly so. So what’s my lesson? Learning to be a coward? I’m a coward now. The same as they were. I can’t love anymore. Was that my lesson? Being a heartless creature? Pretty enlightening… I didn’t learn to share, I didn’t learn to love, I didn’t learn to compromise, I didn’t learn to trust… I only learnt to run!!!

posted October 12, 2005 09:54 AM         

I have been through a period of Avoidance, where I just felt I had enough heartache and needed some time to just be alone to figure out what would make me happy. Although I became a little optimistic about the guy I met and then got crushed again! But I call "Divine Intervention"! In other words not Meant to be! I am into Magi Astrology which can tell a lot about relationships!
www.magisociety.com

I looked up the night we met and he had a Heartbreak Clash with Chiron and Saturn that night, so invevitably it would have never worked out in the long run. So I am glad it didn't continue although I know I was meant to meet him for a reason, which I don't know! I will try again because I do want a relationship and the pain which it could potentially cause somehow will be worth it if I finally find the right person!

“Relationships where you feel you can’t win are often born of a feeling of inadequacy. Although you will never win if you don’t play the game! By avoiding confrontations with real people, you also avoid a confrontation with yourself, in which you fear that you will be the loser. Yet a real confrontation is just what you need. If you persist in one of these relationships, you will have to confront both yourself and your partner as real individuals. Whatever the outcome, this could be the most valuable part of the relationship.”

You do need the bad to learn, what you want and need! We must continue on our path and endure the pain along with the joy in order to grow!!!

“The giving up of personality traits, well-established patterns of behavior, ideologies, and even whole life styles...these are major forms of giving up that are required if one is to travel very far on the journey of life.” ~ M. Scott Peck

Being an Avoidant Personality myself I have found that it is reducing the possibly of Psychological Growth, so it's a bad habit to get into.

Avoidants have limited contact with others when they use avoidance to protect themselves from being rejected. People notice the withdrawing behavior of the avoidant individual which leads either to a reciprocal avoidance by the observer or ridicule of the avoidant by those observing his hermit-like behavior. A cycle of withdrawal, ridicule or rejection, further withdrawal & so on, perpetuates the avoidant personality disorder.

The avoidant is painfully alert to the minutest signals of rejection from others. Unfortunately, being hypersensitive to rejection often lowers avoidants’ ability to correctly perceive what is & what is not rejection. They may imagine rejection where none exists or view a minor & partial rejection as one that is major & complete. They feel that every rejection follows from a thoughtful evaluation of their real worth when they know that people who reject others sometimes do so because they have problems of their own (act reflexively & transferentially rather than thoughtfully & realistically). The strategy they have adopted to protect themselves backfires & the fears associated with the negative view of themselves seems to be confirmed. As the pattern repeats itself & the problem magnifies, the avoidant finds him or herself in a world of self-fulfilling prophecy.

The Best thing you can do is be Proactive in reaching out to others in order to stop the Avoidant Behavior even if it's painful.

Avoidance Reduction is typically an action-oriented approach to handling the causes, complications & consequences of APD. It borrows from the active techniques found in other psychotherapies. Generally, avoidants are encouraged to “do” rather than contemplate, to engage themselves in fearful situations as a means of overcoming their fear.

In summary, those with APD are extremely sensitive toward & fearful of, rejection by others. Their reaction to this fear may be a flight response, in the case of avoidance, but may also be a fight response, in the case of hostility. While genetics may predispose individuals to developing this disorder, it is thought that the environment or more specifically, early failed relationships, divorce, loss of a parent are the pivotal cause of the development of APD.

Having Divorced parents and a Horrible Stepmother who has impeded my relationship with my father since I was six has seriously and detrimentally caused me to Avoid the pain caused by the Abandonment of my father. I have also noted the Death of a parent present in people with Avoidant Personality Disorder. Or just plain a chain of bad painful Relationships!

Keep Faith and go Slow with relationships! Is my Advice but I need to listen to that advice cause I usually wind up in Fast, Tumultuous and over before they begin Relationship myself!

posted October 12, 2005 11:26 AM         

Thanks for your words. I’m also into Magi! Now I look for favourable configurations for major events… I did when I re-connected with that old flame a few months ago, that one who I share a intertwined Magical super-romantic linkage… with no saturn clashes… with a great perspective… When I first saw him, when I only was 10 years old, I knew he was meant for me…

Well, this guy is also running. This time I have not gone after him. I have waited. And he is just ignoring me, not calling. I get the message. I haven’t got the guts anymore to jump into the abyss with no harness. I’m running too. I’m not fighting this time.

I don’t know if this is rejection or if it’s not. The point is that I don’t care. I don’t want to know.

You are completely right about avoidants. I have become one. Those lessons made me an avoidant. I actually did the proactive thing for several years. It only brought more heartbreak. In the past I considered myself as brave, energetic, persevering, trusting… Well, I have a Mars-Jupiter conjunction in the 7th!!!

I also need to feel purposefull… And those running soul mates, those unfair and absurd failures, their futile lessons don’t make any sense to me… At some point I thought I was growing… but now all appears to be collapsing.

posted October 12, 2005 11:43 AM         

God I just turned 36 on 9/23 and I haven't been married or had children and don't have a serious relationship! BUT I have come to believe that God has a Plan and his Plan for me is to have the right relationship and not bring children into this world unless I have all my ducks in a row, cause he knows I couldn't handle it unless I do! I thank god everyday for not having made serious mistakes with my own life and that of my Children!

Let Destiny guide you, be open to the impossible and know that you are where you are suppose to be at this precise moment in time for a very good reason!

Consider failed relationships as DIVINE INTERVENTION, Cause god has a better one for you, with Patience and lack of fear you can have that. Be True Authentic Self and someday you will find someone who loves you for just the way your are!

“A tulip doesn’t strive to impress anyone. It doesn’t struggle to be different than a rose. It doesn’t have to. It is different. And there’s room in the garden for every flower. You didn’t have to struggle to make your face different than anyone else’s on earth. It just is. You are unique because you were created that way. Look at little children; they’re all different without trying to be. As long as they’re unselfconsciously being themselves, they can’t help but shine. It’s only later, when children are taught to compete, to strive to be better than others, that their natural light becomes distorted.”
~ Marianne Williamson ~

Trying to be something your not for someone else will never work, just back fire, “The giving up of personality traits, well-established patterns of behavior, ideologies, and even whole life styles...these are major forms of giving up that are required if one is to travel very far on the journey of life.” ~ M. Scott Peck

As for Depression it is Necessary and Healthy and Intelligent to let out negative emotions, it's part of growth! If you walk around in a Delusional your not living an Authentic Life!

“I call depression "ingenious stagnation," because there's always a very good reason for energy and flow to vacate the psyche in a depression.”

"The mildly depressed appear to have more accurate views of themselves, the world, and the future than normal people. [They] clearly lack the illusions that in normal people promote mental health and buffer them against setbacks."

“Feeling more than anyone I know" can be phenomenal and "a damn curse!"

I am an Empath which like the above quote is a Curse and a blessing!

"I am one of those who never knows the direction of my journey until I have almost arrived."

"To begin to understand what you don't know or understand - is the beginning of Wisdom!"

“Her gift or curse was that she was born ready to stubbornly doubt, received wisdom and disbelieve that anyone but she was entitled to provide answers to her own meaning questions. “

Let your life flow and allow destiny to guide you and you will be free! Worry and Fear and useless emotions! The guy is not the one for you or he'd be with you!

Who the heck wants some crappy ******* who doesn't want you, most likely not worthy anyway!

posted October 12, 2005 06:02 PM         

Do you think there is really a plan? If there is, it’s being a bit cruel.

I also feel like you. Before I used to feel strong enough to bring children to this world on my own. I even set a deadline. If I hadn’t got a meaningful relationship by the time I was 30-31, I’d have children… From a sperm donor if necessary… But now I’m getting wary. I don’t think I can. I’m not as strong as I thought. I’m emotionally broken, I couldn’t give a child the support and love that I should. I couldn’t handle it, I’m just a terrified shadow of a coward.

I suppose I never made serious mistakes, I used to feel great and smart because I didn’t… But now I’m beginning to wonder if I never did because I was never given the chance. You can’t lose if you are not entitled to play but I lost in the worst way you can… before starting the game.

I used to think that maybe I shouldn’t be here, that maybe it was an accident for me to survive. Maybe my life wasn’t meant to be. I had a very difficult birth and for a while doctors didn’t know how I would develop. They thought I’d be blind, deaf and even mentally retarded. And now I don’t happen to have a place. It’s all wrong and inadequate. The most scary thought is thinking than there is no one here for me, that I got the incorrect timing and got trapped in a life that wasn’t meant for me.

A friend of mine is going through this kind of thing too. She was asking me why. Why this life is so unfair. Why they just run and get on with their lives, leaving you behind, smashed and abandoned, as a piece of dirt… When the conection was so special, when you lived through so much together. I couldn’t give her an answer. I don’t have any.

posted October 13, 2005 10:22 AM         

Saturn Returns are very difficult but I swear your 30's are the best time of your life. When you begin to really except yourself and like yourself and understand who you are and where your going and if you look back you will see that everything that has happened in your life was meant to happen for a reason and you are going in the direction of your True Destiny! Everyone has a purpose and meaning, you hve to find it! Life is a Gift, so don't ever think of it as a curse! It's hard but once you find your groove you learn to enjoy the peace and the quiet and the simple things.

I would like to look at your chart so I can give you insight? Can you give me your Birth Information, Date, Time, Place etc.

Astrologers call the period between ages twenty-eight and thirty "Saturn Return."

For most of us, ending a phase of life that is familiar and embarking on one that is new and untried is unsettling, even painful. Few people describe Saturn Return as a pleasant period. While undergoing your Saturn Return you may find yourself turning inward and reflecting on your individual destiny. You examine your true needs and desires and the role you want to play on the world's stage. You may feel lonely and alienated from those around you, while family and friends think you are shutting them out. But this is a necessary period of consolidation, when you must retreat from the distractions of the outer world and focus on yourself at your most fundamental level. The Saturn Return is every individual's search for the Holy Grail.

This transition into adulthood is often accompanied by a sense of urgency, a feeling that you must try to accomplish everything you've ever wanted or planned to do now.

Saturn strips away illusions and points out limitations, allowing you to view yourself in a harsh, often unflattering light. At the same time, it endows you with prudence, practicality, and the perseverance to work hard toward achieving your purposes. Consequently, this is a good time to rearrange your career or lay the foundation for a new one.

Saturn Return almost always requires some major adjustments in lifestyle, attitudes, and relationships. Anything you have outgrown, or have tolerated but not found satisfying, must end now or be altered to meet your emerging needs. According to Hand, "Consciously or unconsciously, you are pruning your life of everything that is not relevant to what you really are as a human being."

Find some Calm and peace and learn to Relax. Children are a very special gift but not if your not ready and it's with the wrong person! It's so hard to bring up children alone. That is something I wouldn't advise attempting. I'm 36 and don't have any yet either so be patient!

I swear life isn't easy last year I was waking up in Sweat dreaming that I was old and ugly and was too old to be married or have children, bad Anxiety, Insomnia, depression then I got caught Drunk driving which threw me over the edge all those fears, Anxiety, Insomina and depression got worse, my family and friends had to drive me to and from work and my sister who is a ***** was so nasty to me I was ready to just end it all! It all seems to have calmed down quite a bit I'm sleeping and Excerising and feel a lot more Calm and Peaceful. The thing with my Sister is she is Sick and is in Denial very Verbally Abusive and won't admit it, very Unhappy person, but I had to sit back and realize that before I took it out on myself! People who are sick can make you feel like your the crazy one or your wrong, but if you really anylyze the situation you realize the Truth!

“Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.” ~ Winston Churchill ~

I love Quotes I think they are very important and enjoy sharing them with everyone!

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

"You can't depend on your judgment," said Mark Twain, "when your imagination is out of focus."

Use your brain for something that will help yourself, be Selfish, Self Involved and spend time alone with yourself!

“Retire into yourself as much as possible. Associate with people who are likely to improve you. Welcome those whom you are capable of improving. The process is a mutual one. People learn as they teach.”
~ Seneca - from Letters from a Stoic ~

Sit infront of a Mirror and find things you like about yourself, your body, your face, learn to except what God has given you and Enhance it or fix what you don't like, everyone has Beauty you just have to find your Beauty and Embrace it.

“Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.” ~ Albert Einstein ~

“What difference does it make, after all, what your position in life is, if you dislike yourself.” ~ Seneca - from Letters from a Stoic ~

That is the most important thing, that will bring you what your seek, having confidence and liking yourself will bring other to you!

Find people who like you for you, don't try to be anything different than what you are, it's Inauthentic!

"A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked."

"Happiness can exist only in acceptance."

Don't forget to send your Birth Information, hopefully I can take a look at your chart and tell you what is going on!

Thanks Deb

posted October 13, 2005 04:17 PM         

I understand the first part and believe all that God does only give you what you can handle.......

The second half not sure I understand what the actual meaning of it is, especially the ps part?

I'm trying to be Supportive and Encouraging and help people!

posted October 13, 2005 04:22 PM         

I’m scared to figure out my true destiny in case I don’t like it. I don’t like the direction everything is taking. I always kept the illusion alive, I hoped everything would change… But everything is as expected… And I don’t like it. I will be that successful career woman, a high earner and a workaholic, who spends most of her time alone, who will grow old alone. I cry only by imagining it.

My profesional life is bright and promissing. That’s where I’m leading, everything fits without much effort. My brain was always my best gift… While I keep failing emotionally. It’s a vicious circle, I hide more in work because I fail and it conforts me. I’m good at it. And I’m not good at being loved. So I work harder and harder. And I succeed there where I don’t need it that much.

I don’t want peace and quiet, I only want a family. My kids. My man. That’s all I always wanted and I never could have.

Yes, you are right about the Saturn return. I’m turning inwards. I’m pushing friends and family away. I don’t want them around. I feel abandoned even having them around. I don’t want charity, I don’t want people around who only spend a good time with me, who base their lives in others, whose future is not me. I’m just getting the crumbs when I want the cake. People I can’t really count on.

If everybody goes throuh this period, why is it so simple for many, why do they have their lives consolidated by now, while I’m struggling so much?

YES! I feel as if I was gonna die in a few years and if I don’t rush, if I don’t get what I need now, I’d have lost my last chance. Game over. As if I was getting to the end of the road still empty handed.

So you still feel that way… 8 years from where I’m now… Gosh!!!! So this won’t finish after the Saturn return. I don’t want a life of frustration, of sweat dreaming and insomnia, of depresion.

I like myself. I think I deserve a good relationship. I do. That’s why I’m so upset. Because I don’t understand why I can’t have one. I’m just tired now. Very tired and sad. Things go worse and worse. It was always difficult but no matter how hard I try, this unyielding fate chastises me. I can’t go on resisting, what’s the point?

Thanks very much for offering to have a look to my birth data. I truly appreciate it. Here you have it:

19 September 1977
3pm
Madrid (Spain)

************

posted October 13, 2005 05:21 PM         

The First thing I did notice is your chart is Top Heavy meaning, People with top heavy charts tend to be more public, to be more visible out there in the world. All of your planets are in 7th through 12th house.
7th is Partnerships and Marriage with Jupiter and Mars
8th Other peoples money with Venus and Saturn
9th Spirtuality and foreigners, Travel with Mercury and the Sun
10th Career, Reputation, Pluto and the North Node.
11th Hopes wishes dreams with Uranus and the Moon and Juno.
12th Secrets Sorrows and self un-doing with Neptune.

But most are in 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11!

The Bottom half of the chart is personal stuff Like:
1st Self with Eros the Asteroid of Love
2nd Money, posssesions has the Part of Fortune.
3rd Communication
4th Home and Family
5th romance, children, art
6th health and work

Give yourself a break, your only 28, plus your a Virgo (Very Picky, know what you want and won't settle for less)! I know I'm a Virgo/Libra Cusp!

Get out and about more, be more social Mars is Transitting your 5th House of Romance for the next 6 months, cause it's Retrograde so it will stay in Taurus longer. Plus Venus is in Sagittarius right now and will be conjuncting your Neptune!

Eros in the First house in a Fire Sign I have this Aspect I tend to be Aggressive and come on very strong and Scare Men Away!

Where Eros is by house indicates the environment, people or experiences that the god of love affiliates with. Eros in the First House
And as concerning reality the impression we get of it is not the same as the perception.
--Aristotle

When Eros resides in the first house of the natal chart, it gains additional significance. This is especially true if it is found within ten degrees either side of the Ascendant. Here Eros takes on first house importance adding his flavor to the sign or signs and any other planets found there.

In this position, Eros contributes towards the general approach to life. It may indicate how plans are initiated, action taken or dilemmas worked out. It may not mean that we have an erotic approach to initiation, but that we tend to encounter the erotic when taking action or presenting ourselves to the world.

Eros in Sagittarius
Imagine, if you can, silver leaves waving above a pool of gold filled with singing fishes. Twin moons in an alien sky. If you like, I'll show them to you and they will be, I promise you, the dullest part of the journey. Come with me and I will show you sights that you have never dreamed of. Or stay behind, and regret it until your dying day...

--William Hartnell as Doctor Who

Eros in Sagittarius says, "expand my horizons and explore the unknown with me!" This placement of Eros needs widespread goals for the future and the space, energy and enthusiasm to live them out. Spontaneous, exuberant, adventurous and fickle, Eros here prefers a lively and challenging experience with the beloved, one that will take him to the limitless corners of the universe. If someone is going to be with Eros in Sagittarius, they best get ready to soar.

This third FIRE sign has enormous sexual energy and will become bored if the relationship does not develop into broader and richer potentials, or offer new horizons. Travel is his watchword and that does not necessarily mean physically jumping on a plane and heading for a distant culture. The travel Sagittarius has in mind involves the exploration of any previously unknown realm. This includes symbolic journeys through intellectual concepts, philosophical ideas, spiritual beliefs and artistic creations.

Eros is Trine Venus Natally so I wouldn't worry about finding Love, it will come in due time. Right now Pluto is coming towards Eros by Transit which will set off the Transit Pluto Trine Natal Venus Aspect and Transit Eros is right behind pluto.

Your Progressions look much better than the past two years. Progressed Sun is in Libra that's good for meeting men.

The Progressed Moon has been in a very Difficult position for the past two 1/2 years Scorpio rules Obsessions and meeting Men that are very bad and lie and just are not good. It's going to Change very soon into Lighter Brighter Jupiter Ruled Sagittarius that's Lucky! 2 1/2 years with the Progressed Moon in Lucky Sagittarius things will get Fun and light possibly you should Travel with the Sun and Mercury in the 9th house Natally I would think possibly you could marry someone from another Country! Venus is also at 28 degrees Virgo and will be moving into light, Fun, Flirty Libra Soon that will be good for you too!

I have to go for now Family Crisis but I will look into this more Tomorrow! I swear don't worry! Enjoy your Single Time! My friend just went through this Progressed Moon in Scorpio thing aweful relationships with a Crazy Guy, who was a total liar and gave her an STD!

You are so young and any good Astrologer will tell you to "NEVER MARRY BEFORE YOUR FIRST SATURN RETURN" You see it's a Gift or Divine Intervention!