posted April 04, 2017 06:16 PM            

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Originally posted by sugarflapjacks:
I've been MIA for a minute. But here goes...

LionFish, these of your quotes were most poignant to me (italics were added by me and not in your original post):

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Originally posted by LionFish:
Yes, we were in a relationship.
This man (Chris) begged me to be his. Literally got on his knees and begged me. ... He wanted me for his and it wasn't something he was used to wanting. Until me, he was happy being a player. Hence the self denial.
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... the only thing he missed was her daughter and when I didn't respond followed up with, "Why don't you have a baby?" I couldn't give him what he needed. I've never been told by a doctor, but I'm pretty sure I can't have children. Something that was crucial to him.

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LionFish, you will be ok. I don’t think it’s just your experience with him. Maybe somewhere in time something triggered in you that either you feel you don't deserve real love, or trust that it will come to you or that love really matters. Dismiss it as insignificant (implied by your post title) or become a martyr due to lack of it. (A Nun)?

I like what you say about lessons.

Yes, grieve the loss. Ask for forgiveness, receive it and forgive yourself. Trust your instincts and let go of self-hate. Discover that you are already most loved for everything you are. And like you experienced it before, you will again. He may have been a promise (or glimpse) of what is to come – of what is capable of coming into your life, for real. You set him free. Now you BE FREE.

[b]** From Linda Goodman, "Love Signs": Pisces woman/Leo man **

“Both the Lion and the Fish need emotional (not necessarily geographical) freedom – great, fresh scoops of it. The more of this treasured gift they give generously to each other, the closer they’ll come together. But freedom must always be accompanied by both trust and faithfulness – or it becomes merely escape on one and terrible torture on the other. A search ‘round the globe never fails to end where it began, for the world itself is round. LOVE travels in a circle too, if it’s true love … which is, after all, the only kind you really miss when it goes away … and promises to return. “.

LionFish, I fell in love with that quote when I first read her book as a teenager. (incidently I didn't remember it was taken from the Pisces/Leo section, but how apropos -- you are the LionFish!)[/B]

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First off, welcome back!

I did get a chance to read this before you edited, I just couldn't respond at the time.

No, I don't trust easily. I keep most everyone at arm's length, even people I care about. If I'm honest with myself, I know exactly why. It's not that I don't think I deserve to be loved, but to avoid the pain of losing someone I love with all my heart to death again. I withdrew my heart from the world more than a little when my dad passed away. If I wasn't close to someone before it happened, I kept it that way.

But now, getting older, I'm more leaning to the feeling of not missing out on the time allowed by life. It's funny what time can and can't do. Time has not lessened my connection with this man that I have "discovered" multiple times, but it has made me realize that living without this or something akin to it isn't living.

I have tried moving on from him without closure between us. Including measures like avoiding mutual friends' houses and other places he may show up just to keep a distance to the point that it's now normal for me to not be there. But now my own assumptions about our relationship that I've had for years, like assuming he wouldn't be with me, he's hinting were wrong. So, before I assume that what we have is lost, I have to try.

If you could feel what I do when he's near, see the way he looks at me when he thinks nobody is watching, or hear the conviction and hearbreak in his voice when he says he loves me you'd understand completely why I have to give him this choice. Maybe you do anyway, as a fellow Piscean. I can't live the rest of my life with this "what if" over my head and I will if I never give him the option.

It will hurt like hell if he decides to stay where he is, but no more than what I have already been going through. That will allow me the freedom we both wish for me at the very least.

Your quote from Linda is beautiful and more fitting than you even know. For while yes, I am the LionFish, he and I are also the Pisces Woman and Leo Man.

posted April 04, 2017 06:34 PM            

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Originally posted by Mystic Melody:
Pray for him to find his way? Ask that he be blessed with clarity an strength. Let us know when you make contact too. I think this is meant to be.

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Thank you...

Praying isn't something I really do ever, but I've been doing this the past couple nights since you suggested it. I'm not sure who I'm praying to except the powers that be of the universe, but it makes me feel better before I go to sleep.

I've always thought it was meant to be, time will tell I suppose. I'll keep you updated on things as they unfold

posted April 05, 2017 05:30 PM            

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Originally posted by LionFish:...It's not that I don't think I deserve to be loved, but to avoid the pain of losing someone I love with all my heart to death again.

It's funny what time can and can't do. Time has not lessened my connection with this man that I have "discovered" multiple times, but it has made me realize that living without this or something akin to it isn't living.

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You're right about time, but you're talking about love -- that is what you don't want to live without. Love Is life.

This is going to be tough. I now totally get what you are going through and why you tried to let him go because of how you felt about intimacy. Your marriage to a man you didn't love was a way of controlling that you will never be hurt. But you can't fool your heart, you're really not about making people unhappy. You are self-sacrificing, but also a survivor. You are going to do what gives you peace.

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Originally posted by LionFish:...I have tried moving on from him without closure between us. But now my own assumptions about our relationship ... he's hinting were wrong. So, before I assume that what we have is lost, I have to try.

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I say this gently. You may need to see how your getting married sat from his perspective. He may have seen that as closure. Remember, he's not mutable. A committment was made. His reasons for marrying, although on the rebound, had a soultie. Yours didn't, right?

Yes, the love you have for him is a soultie as well, but you have got to let go of the guilt for the hurt you believe you caused him. Let go of the feeling of inadequacy, too. Let it go. No, for real. Guilt will never inspire love, and this could be the torture you feel and why you are on this ride-or-die mission of reconciliation and reunion.

LionFish, I believe this is what is tying your soul to him mostly – regret, guilt…

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Originally posted by LionFish:...If you could feel what I do when he's near, see the way he looks at me when he thinks nobody is watching, or hear the conviction and hearbreak in his voice when he says he loves me you'd understand completely why I have to give him this choice. Maybe you do anyway, as a fellow Piscean. I can't live the rest of my life with this "what if" over my head and I will if I never give him the option.

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Originally posted by LionFish: ......Thank you so much for responding and including this. It may be mere coincidence, but perhaps it is a synchronicity

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Originally posted by LionFish: ... Your quote from Linda is beautiful and more fitting than you even know. For while yes, I am the LionFish, he and I are also the Pisces Woman and Leo Man.

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posted April 07, 2017 03:01 AM            

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Originally posted by sugarflapjacks:
My condolences to you about the loss of your father. Fathers and their daughters is so special.

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It truly is..

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You're right about time, but you're talking about love -- that is what you don't want to live without. Love Is life.

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Yes, love is what I was referring to. It's what makes the world survive going 'round.

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This is going to be tough. I now totally get what you are going through and why you tried to let him go because of how you felt about intimacy. Your marriage to a man you didn't love was a way of controlling that you will never be hurt. But you can't fool your heart, you're really not about making people unhappy. You are self-sacrificing, but also a survivor. You are going to do what gives you peace.

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I did love the man I married. It was a beautiful connection in its own right. However, addiction and lies destroyed it and I ended it because he refused me when I asked him to get some sort of marriage help. He told me it was a waste of time and money. Translation to me at that point: our relationship is a waste of his time. So I left. I loved him. Leaving was one of the hardest things I have ever done. But I had to for multiple reasons.

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I now understand why you put distance between you (by your marriage, with mutual friends and places). You had to be the one to do that, because something had to give or fear of being hurt would drive you nuts.[b]

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Being around him was physical torture at the time that I started doing this. I had already been hurt more than I thought possible and couldn't bare to be around him. This was when I cried for 4 months (good god, nobody can cry like a Pisces lol) if I wasn't sleeping or working. I felt like an emotional zombie excpet for the tears. It's not a time of my life that I'm particularly proud of.

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[b]I say this gently. You may need to see how your getting married sat from his perspective. He may have seen that as closure. Remember, he's not mutable. A committment was made. His reasons for marrying, although on the rebound, had a soultie. Yours didn't, right?

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I have thought about that. Especially with the proximity of his proposal to my marriage. Like my getting married freed him. However, his words and actions tell me he did what he felt obligated to. Don't get me wrong here, please. I don't think anyone can be with someone off and on for 8 years and not have love for them, but if my marriage was truly his closure our encounters these past months would not have been what they were. He is mutable where I am fixed, with his Sag his Moon.

Yes, my marriage had a soultie. If he had even entertained my request for marriage counseling you and I would probably not be here discussing myself and this man. I didn't marry someone I didn't love. That I could never do. I had put my own feelings aside for the sake of others' more than I can count, but he finally pushed me to my breaking point with the refusal for help for us. I couldn't be that unimportant to the person I loved.

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Yes, the love you have for him is a soultie as well, but you have got to let go of the guilt for the hurt you believe you caused him. Let go of the feeling of inadequacy, too. Let it go. No, for real. Guilt will never inspire love, and this could be the torture you feel and why you are on this ride-or-die mission of reconciliation and reunion.

LionFish, I believe this is what is tying your soul to him mostly – regret, guilt…

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I don't feel guilty for it anymore, though. I just recognize what part I had in our relationship ending. I have more than made up for any hurt feelings I caused him, except maybe those brought on by me marrying someone else, but that's a box yet to be opened.

Younger, more tender me did feel inadequate. I couldn't see what I could possibly give him that would make his heart content because I really didn't think I was enough on my own. I know now, years down the road, how wrong I was on this. He wanted nothing more than me. I was too blinded by my fear of losing him to see that.

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LionFish, I also have absolutely NO doubt at all of the passion and sensitivity you both have for one another. You love each other. And he’s not the only way you will experience love. That heavy vibe of heartbreak from both of you is counteractive. That “what if” is inert and sapping all your energy. It’s paralyzing you and neutralizing any motivation for you to expect love to find you again.

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You are absolutely right about the "what if." It is draining. I see it in a different light than paralyzing and neutralizing. I need this from him to move forward. Whether it ends with or without him continuing in my life, I need and deserve some closure to this saga.

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I have to ask this: have you and him every “had it out” about the decisions to marry someone else instead of each other? Aren’t you angry at him for marrying her and vice versa? Did you guys EVER just get this out in the OPEN?

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No, we haven't yet. The closest we have come is what happened the night before my birthday. When he was working. Not the appropriate time or place. Yes, I am angry that he married her. For a few reasons. And yes, he is probably angry that I married someone else. He and I can't have conversations like that while he works. He would end up with no job because we have no filter for public I honestly can't believe my husband didn't leave me before we married after witnessing a "hashing it out" between us in one of the establishments we used to both frequent. That was a mess. Screaming at each other, him angry and me bewildered, only for him to turn around and calmly tell my then fiance just how much he loves me while shaking his hand before leaving.

I WANT this conversation with him. I want him to tell me his thoughts and feelings about it. Even if it's not particularly what I want to hear. At least I know he isn't capable of lying to me so whatever is said will be from the heart. I just have NO idea how or where to have it. His wife doesn't trust him, with reason, so he isn't allowed out of the house except for work unless she is firmly attached to his side. Not exactly the way I'd picture that conversation being productive.

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“Covered things don’t heal well” (old saying—which is why you don’t always need a band-aid :-) ).

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It's true!
Things that are let out in the open tend to get resolved faster.

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No, it's not a coincidence I quoted that –

O.M.g. I didn't know that initially. I get it. And I know…

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Funny how things come together sometimes..

Thank you, truly. You have made me rethink and evaluate my own feelings about this with your questions. I don't feel overwhelmed by this situation because I know that no matter the outcome, I was true to myself in this.

posted April 08, 2017 11:45 PM            

Isn't it something how writing about something can get to the heart of things.

You married the man you loved. While your marriage may not have lasted, that doesn't take anything from it. You don't have to feel guilty or justify loving the man you got engaged to and then married just because another man you had an 8-year "on/off" relationship with was standing there wishing it was him. OR, because it didn't last a lifetime. Like you said, even though the latter was waiting for you to end your relationship with the former, you closed the possibility of that relationship ending when you married the former. I don't know if your husband knew your feelings for the other man, but the fact that he knew that you chose him to marry, and not the other, says much.

I don't know why your husband wouldn't seek help for his addictions, or go to marriage counselling. Sometimes, that has nothing to do with how they feel about their spouse, but more about how they feel about themselves. Your ex needs to get out of thinking of only himself. It could be that he lacks a healthy self-esteem or the desire for the drug is more powerful than the desire is for you. But in the end, it comes to the "self" and he needs to grow up more to understand that it's not always "all about him" (not as being arrogant, but as being so focused on himself and his issues, he doesn't let anyone else in).

I think you are on your way to a more beautiful life. I really do. I wouldn't let anything hold me back. Not let the "what ifs", not let the not having the "OPEN" conversation, Not the not having "closure" (which you will discover you already have as this proves it):

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Originally posted by LionFish:
I don't feel overwhelmed by this situation because I know that no matter the outcome, I was true to myself in this.

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We all have regrets. But there's other sides to that -- relief, gratitude, thankfulness, hope. I quote you here, LionFish -- the eternal optimism of the fish

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Originally posted by LionFish:
Funny how things come together...

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posted April 11, 2017 08:47 PM            

People refuse counselling because every addict wants to be left alone with their addiction. They want no interference. It is an addict's answer, 'I don't need it', 'there is no point', 'I'm fine', 'I'm handling it', 'I'm working on it', 'I feel so much better', 'It's not necessary'. It was the addiction answering you "no I will not let go of him', it was not your husband answering your request to work on the marriage. Obviously your husband knows any counselling or soul searching will address the addiction. An addict would not want to face that. I'm sure you leaving him (alone with his addiction) was his (addiction's) perverse wish. It allowed him to isolate himself further to nurse his addiction, whatever it is.

In any case, his response should not be taken personally. It had nothing to do with you.

posted April 15, 2017 09:50 PM            

Yes I married a man I loved I still love him dearly, I just can't be with him or be responsible for him. It's been a year since I left and while I felt terribly guilty then, enough so to go back, I don't now. Neither of us was well or happy and both of us are doing tremendously better now. He is clean and has been since he moved last July. I'm proud of him. I love to see him doing well. But that is all that I feel for him anymore. I don't feel like his refusal had anything to do with me...now. At that time though I was already so hurt that I just needed him to be compassionate and his addictions couldn't even allow it for even a second. I couldn't be more important for one brief moment of his time and it crushed everything inside of me that was left standing to fight for our relationship. Recovering from that took a while. I know that the addiction he had was powerful and I know that it can make a person afraid to face themselves, but he had refused help for that before. I know that his decision had more to do with the addiction than me and the value he placed on our relationship, but oh boy did it mess me up when he said it. Thank you both for your heartfelt responses about this.

As for this man who's got my soul wrapped around his perfect finger... Every time that I think that I have been successful in letting him go emotionally, I've been firmly corrected by my heart. It's not something I can control and is probably something that will encourage my moving away from the place I live if he chooses to stay where he is. Which I am considering highly likely. Please understand I am not disillusioned here thinking that he is just going to have this conversation or read this letter and instantly say yes and go home to tell his wife he's leaving her. As lovely as that sounds, it would never happen.

It's a question that I'm asking and expecting to hear the answer I don't want. It's like when you know someone has done something terrible, but you still ask anyway.. Confirmation I guess. It may seem like I have my closure because I can be calm and accepting of the situation no matter the outcome, however it's due to the length of time that my heart has been tied to his, and the way that we love. I can't really explain it in words because well, English is a terrible language and the only one I speak. I imagine some people somewhere have a beautiful word to describe it that makes you feel warm and bright and safe when you say it. Like magic. But that love allows me to desire his happiness. The only thing I've ever wanted for him was to be happy with himself and his life. Until I know that's true, I can't move forward. I've tried and every time everything comes back to him. If it's not the universe trying to give us a sign then it's been playing a terrible joke for a very long time.

Mine and his relationship wasn't 8 years of on and off. His and his wife's has been. Our actual relationship period was much shorter than that. Less than a year, but more than half of it. The beginning of when we started dating vs being friends who hooked up with nobody else was a little fuzzy because it just kinda turned into that. The attraction and friendship has been going on for nearly 2 decades since the first time we laid eyes on each other. I have been at times in my life where nothing I am doing has to do with him and then I will dream about him. After the dreams he usually shows up somewhere I'm hanging out or we run into each other out and about. It's a connection that has not faded in the slightest over time. I have felt love other than his. It is but a shadow in comparison to the light that he brings to my life.

I don't want to live without that light if I don't have to. People say "oh you will love again" Yes, I know I will, and I have, but when you've witnessed a supernova the sun isn't quite as bright as before.

I want everyone in the world to experience what I have with him and cherish it. It would make the world a better place

posted April 16, 2017 12:05 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
I try not to have any regrets, because a different past will make you a different person than you are now.

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Randall! This is so true! And, obviously, there are always going to be times where you have decisions to make and the outcome of the decision is what makes people regret it. But here's the thing, they thought it was the right choice or they never would have made it.

Beating yourself up for doing what you thought right is never okay.

And I want to thank you for your heart and caring. There are so many users here and you always seem to find time to step in and give an encouraging or empathetic response when people are hurting. It sets a good tone for this place. I appreciate it very much.

posted April 18, 2017 06:48 AM            

I respect your reasons for leaving your husband. I wrote that you should not take his response to you that day personally, and I still don't think that, but I do believe that there comes a point with everybody where you have to decide that you cannot let them bring you down (with them). It doesn't help them, and it just makes two people miserable instead of one. Misery loves company, and it feeds that way. So I'm glad you're both doing much better.

I would tell you to "just go for it" with this soulmate of yours but it sounds like it can't be that simple, since there is allot of hurt between you. You have both chosen other people at different times in your lives, and so even though there is love there is naturally a BIG trust issue. I can only recommend you forsake all others (give yourself a timeline, say a year), where you cultivate this relationship and set about rebuilding the trust and showing him you are ready for this relationship and that you want to make amends.

posted July 19, 2017 03:11 PM            

I started him off with the fact that I had found my biological father. He was genuinely happy for me. He was in the same position of not knowing his. He was grinning, holding my hand across the bar. He asked when I was meeting him and I told him I already had. I told him everything about the meeting and about how wonderful I thought my dad and his wife were. He was attentive as always when I spoke to him and so it doesn't surprise me that he could tell that there was something wrong and asked what it was.

I told him about my plans to move. And about how far away I was moving. And that what was wrong was that I was afraid I was never going to see him again. That was all that was running through my head while I looked at him and thought about my upcoming move. Never seeing his smile or feeling his fingertips touch my face. Never hearing the sound of his laugh or seeing the warmth and love in his eyes when he looks my way, ever again. And his reaction to my news didn't help. He took his hands away from mine and stepped back from the bar. His entire demeanor changed in a heartbeat. He looked angry. He was quiet. No more questions now, after the unending flow that had ensued with my initial news of finding my father. He ran his hand over his face and nodded to himself, I wish I knew what had gone through his head right there because he forced a smile and then told me, "Good for you."

I sat there for maybe another 15 minutes, watching him take care of other customers. Even the way he moved expressed his anger with his quick, jerky movements. Not to mention his short, irritated responses. He wouldn't look at me. I asked one of the other bartenders for my tab and he intervened, bringing it over to me. He just stared at me. I don't think I have ever, in all our years, seen the look he was giving me. I don't know how to describe it except that it made me feel empty. Which, in turn, made me angry. My mind, going its usual 8 quadrillion miles per hour, decided that he didn't have the right to be mad. As I got up, I told him I was leaving in three weeks and that I might come back to say goodbye. He responded with, "I'll be here." It wasn't said like a promise, but like a bitter or jealous lover that tells you that when you go out with friends and leave them home saying, "I'll be back later."

I didn't go back to see him before I left. I even went back to town to initiate my divorce a couple weeks after moving and didn't go see him then, either. I wanted to. Desperately wanted to. I did call him the night before I moved away. While he was at work, at the end of his shift. I told him I was leaving the next day and that I had wanted nothing more than to see him before I did and now it was too late. He told me he loved me. He told me I should have come down to see him and that he was upset that I hadn't. I explained that after the last time I was there that I didn't think he wanted me to. "You dummy, I always want you to. You think too much," was his response. I told him I loved him. He said he knew and he loved me, too. He told me to make sure I come back to him in one piece and I told him I would try (I'm a klutz and he has saved me from my own two feet many a time ). I told him to get ahold of me for anything at anytime and that I will always be here. We said one more I love you and I said bye, although it was so quiet he probably thought I hung up on him.

So, now I sit, seemingly a world away. I don't know when I will see him again. Even though it's not an easily executed option, it is still at the forefront of my mind: when and how will I see him and share the things I've seen and been doing?

posted July 24, 2017 04:45 AM            

I don't know why I didn't go see him when I went back to town, if only just to see him one more time before I didn't for a very long time. Maybe it's better that I didn't. I don't know.

I do know I feel like I left a piece of myself with him, but saying goodbye wouldn't have changed that.

posted July 28, 2017 10:08 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
You're very unselfish.

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I try to be. Being selfish isn't love and I truly love him. I'm not sure my choice had to do with being unselfish, though.

Maybe it did. Or maybe it was the most selfish thing I have ever done. I let the hurt and heartache be my reason for escape. Not wanting to experience my current world with him not in it, so I changed my world. Leaving not only him behind, but everyone else I loved, as well. To do something different, just for me.

posted July 09, 2018 10:47 AM            

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Originally posted by LionFish:
I try to be. Being selfish isn't love and I truly love him. I'm not sure my choice had to do with being unselfish, though.

Maybe it did. Or maybe it was the most selfish thing I have ever done. I let the hurt and heartache be my reason for escape. Not wanting to experience my current world with him not in it, so I changed my world. Leaving not only him behind, but everyone else I loved, as well. To do something different, just for me.

I feel like I chickened out. And I'm not proud of it.

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