posted September 29, 2009 06:00 PM         

just because everyone is using my reading as an example doesn't mean i am upset with todd about it. i just agreed it focused on the negative. whatever is going to happen is going to happen, i have enough real stuff today to worry about, not to be frightened of some obscure this or that might happen in the future.

anyway, i wish you well if you do leave and i am sorry you feel that way. i do think todd has a gift and is a good reader, i also think with that gift comes responsibility. but i have no complaints, i got what i asked for.

ah well.

posted September 30, 2009 12:43 PM         

To me, an astrological relationship reading is best as a powerfully interactive process, where the astrologer and the querent work together to trace the ways that astrological aspects are playing out in life. Then the astrologer HELPS the querent figure out the richest, most life-affirming ways to work with the relationship's complex energies in line with his/her highest needs.

I understand that readers offering freebies on Lindaland do not always have time to do this--especially readers who are very popular and in-demand!--but that's why it's so great to have a public forum. The reading should function as a starting point for an in depth discussion to help the querent in his/her life.

But an even MORE crucial function of not-in-depth mini-readings on an astrology forum is that people learning astrology at any level (included people who are gifted and accomplished astrologers themselves) can use the readings as a powerfully enriching pedagogical case study, comparing, contrasting, and analyzing different astrologer's approaches.

The kinds of information yeilded in this sort of discussion--for example, that Todd saw CPN's composite as looking like a relationship that did not/would not exist in real life, when in fact they got married last summer (sorry to keep using your example, CPN)--are highly, highly valuable. We can talk about different ways different astrolgers might read and interpret the energies evident in that composite, and also about the advantages and limitations of composite charts in general as a tool, and the ways to best work with them in relationship to other tools.

posted September 30, 2009 01:20 PM         

But well, on the other hand, the responsibility of having a deeper in-depth understanding of our own relationships is still on ourselves. So if we really want to explore deeper details and more possibilities within a relationship (whether astrologically and/or in the real life), then we might have to do our own in-depth study, while using what astrologers said as a starting point or just another perspective (it's not that we shouldn't ask more questions, it's just I'm encouraging more on self-learning even if astrologers can answer our further questions). After all, we are the ones, not the astrologers, that understand our relationships the best, right? ^_~ Besides, it's not easy for someone else besides ourselves (specially astrologers) to give the kind of deep in-depth analysis that people often desires to everyone.

About debates, forums are useful for sharing our ideas and opinions, which is very helpful to learn from each other's knowledge. But well, it's important that we respect each other as well as their opinions in order to avoid conflicts and share knowledge in a constructive manner. ^_~

In my opinion, the problem with that thread was coz the initial post felt as if Todd was demanded some sort of justification, which might have been kinda uncomfortable for him. I guess that many people here just wanted to express their opinions without the intention of making anyone uncomfortable, and indeed some very good points were made (which are good food for thought), but well, unfortunately, the thread became a bit unpleasant too (guess that I'm at fault too, I'm sorry about that). >_<
But well, this is just my opinion, but I just want to suggest that if anyone wants to share more opinions, then it would be better if we could share it in an impersonal manner, without focusing on anyone or anyone's case anymore, as it would be kinda uncomfortable for anyone if that happens (including cpn_edgar_winner's case). After all, I guess that in that thread, people just wanted to debate the good sides and bad sides of straight readings of the astrologers, which could lead to some interesting debate. ^_~

posted September 30, 2009 04:21 PM         

And I think there's value in all of us who use astrology or do readings explaining, justifying, defending, rethinking, experimenting with, debating and discussing our approaches, motivations, and methods.

Making it impersonal can also get passive-aggressive, when we all know who's being discussed...and also, I feel I can't get into the nitty-gritty specifics of whatever case I'm analyzing without discussing its details.

It's really lame when people resort to personal attacks and mean characterizations of each other's personal emotional problems (and, Comica23, I don't mean you)...but it's worth it to me to endure that for the richness of REAL case studies of readings.

posted October 03, 2009 11:50 PM         

It's hard for me to relate to the idea that any astrologer or reader wouldn't appreciate detailed debate, discussion, analysis and other rich feedback.

If I offered readings online (the reason I don't is that my intuition doesn't work that way--I need to be in a private space in person with the querent), I would want as much feedback as possible. Likely accuracy is only one issue--the reader's motivations, methodology, bedside manner, and how his/her particular style and approach compare and contrast to others are all fascinating discussion topics to me, as well as indispensible pedagogical tools.

posted October 07, 2009 09:19 AM         

While I agree with your comments, MVM, I guess for me this is about my beliefs about astrology.

If I thought gifted astrologers (or ANY astrologers) could accurately tell us what WOULD happen in a relationship or even what was manifesting already, then I would have no problem with a lack of bedside manner. Conclusions such as: "what is certain is that this relationship ,if it exist, is headed for trouble.i can see nothing other than malicious intent from him" or "for this to work ,one of the individual would have to accept a very derogatory role and would reflect extremely low self esteem" would be 100% fully terrific, however the truth was stated. It would be great to have the problem solved with straight-up truth!! I mean, if those heartbreaking things are true, why sugarcoat them? If some dude is out to steal your money or beat up your kids, then "scar(ing) the living hell out of you!" is a good thing...although a really great reading would still approach the news with info on how to extricate yourself from the situation and maybe why you'd gotten into that mess.

So the objections I have really are about the fact that I believe:
-human relationships are infinitely complex and can change in the moment
-astrology can only show potential energies and dynamics, not a full-on fixed truth
-astrology shows MULTIPLE potential dynamics

I don't feel that the reader's responsibility is to sugarcoat unpleasant truths...it's to acknowledge that astrology cannot predict absolute truths about the future or about relationship dynamics.

I don't think Todd is reading in a way that means to be uncompassionate. His interpretations are just very fixed. If they were always going to be 100% true, that would be a good thing...AND I would agree wholly with the "you shouldn't ask if you don't want to know" people. But even the world's most gifted astrologer can only discuss tendencies and potentials and dynamics that can play out multiple ways, so a fixed conclusion, whether happy or scary, will often be wrong, although, with the astrologer's gifts, some of the ESSENCE will probably always be right...just not necessarily the way it is manifested.

posted October 07, 2009 09:17 PM         

gothastrology.com

posted October 10, 2009 01:18 PM         

todd

posted October 11, 2009 12:08 AM         

One issue is that charts ONLY show potential. They don't accurately show what's actually being realized--for that, we would have to use them in combination with psychological consultation with the person.

If someone comes to me and says, "My boyfriend beat me up three times," I can accurately say, "This is a violent relationship."

Whereas a composite chart might look, to one astrologer, like the relationship doesn't really exist as a relationship, but if it did exist it would be violent. When in reality, as one example, the energies between the people may have manifested as them getting married and having a non-violent relationship.

I personally feel that when I give people advice, they take it in and often use and apply it in their lives...I also think that with astrology (versus in an individual consultation where you are looking at what's ACTUALLY MANIFESTING in someone's relationship or life, rather than the potential according to the position of spheres at their first breath), the only option is to give advice!!

Because a chart doesn't accurately show what's happening in some exact, 100% way. So I think astrologers need to acknowledge the different ways that energies might play out. It then makes sense to discuss with clients ways to best work with the dynamics to bring the desired ones to the fore and avoid the undesired ones--but even if an astrologer doesn't want to give that kind of advice, s/he needs to acknowledge that there are many potential ways any chart might play out.

I don't place much stock in astrological or psychological statistics--too many methodological problems and issues about methods of data collection, and most importantly, most studies are far from comprehensive. YMMV, but if you do cite or reference statistical studies, please provide a full reference so I (or others) can check out the methologies used, the credentials and previous works of those who undertook the study, etc.

posted October 11, 2009 09:55 AM         

quote:

---

but even if an astrologer doesn't want to give that kind of advice, s/he needs to acknowledge that there are many potential ways any chart might play out.

---

Defining astrology as a unique combination of influences and the interactions between those influences is something I definitely go out of my way to stress when giving readings to others. I'm always sure to explain that, outright-- I'm not handing you a map of your life that you can follow mindlessly from start to finish here, I'm handing you a picture of your life's overall atmosphere-- which, like pretty much everything in life, is constantly shape shifting (via transits, progressions, etc). No matter what your chart (natal, synastry, composite, whatever) says, you remain in possession of infinite choices vis a vis your autonomy. Complimentary synastry is virtually nil if you make the decision, autonomously, to try and muck it up-- and so on. You may be more or less LIKELY to do such a thing based on aspects in your chart, yes-- but the course of your life is infinitely maleable regardless.

The issue with regarding astrology that way (and I can't regard it any other way, personally) is that people really, really, really WANT a map of their lives/relationships that they can follow mindlessly. Explaining that people hold a large amount of their destiny in their own hands leads some to the conclusion that either astrology is useless, or that the reading has been "watered down" to make it universal and thusly applicable to just about anyone. Which is heart breaking, actually, because it's exactly that elusive, "do with this what you will" overtone that has drawn me to astrology as a life study beyond passing, superficial interest. I can look at my natal chart and think, "here are the tools and materials I've been given, now it's time to go build a life with them."