posted March 28, 2003 01:38 PM              

"And do you think watching that propaganda machine, CNN, makes you an expert?"

1) CNN has NOT been much of a propaganda machine for the US, their reporters have been desperately searching for ANY event to discredit this war... have you been watching???

2) They REALLY ARE that accurate, it's raw footage they show, do you think the whole "precision-guiding" thing is a total & complete lie? Give me a break, you have no clue, you simply are throwing out accusations, WITHOUT ANY PROOF, lol

"If they are really so surgically accurate, how come one of them went far enough astray to strike Iran?"

1) Alright so why haven't I heard that confirmed yet, why hasn't the blood-lusting media gotten ahold of it yet???

2) Where is your proof, & is it from another one of your "fanatic" sources, give me a break x2, lol

"you are so willing and eager to believe anything the corporate media or our leaders say that you are on the verge of being complacent in something more terrible than you realize.
Don't you ever question authority?"

1) You're willing to believe anything your LESS ACCREDITED fanactic/radical sources put on the web, so you are proving hypocrisy, duh...

2) Question authority... uhm OK, are you trying to corner me as a b*i*tch to get me to lash out, lol , well I guess you could say I UNDERSTAND our leaders, & their actions... I mean I study them EVERYDAY in class. I have a radical Arab professor, A very Patriotic Professor, & a middle-of-the-road objective attorney Professor that presents ALL details to me.

2) I agree & KNOW not everything they do is just.

3) But sweetheart if you believe that you can do everything in this world that is good without stepping on anyone's toes you are NOT living in reality... get a grip.

"I believe fiercely in a government by the people for the people, NOT for the corporations, who are regarded as having the same rights as people in this twisted system we have."

1) It is those corporations, comprised of the people, that have made this country, its poor, its middle class, & its rich as wealthy as it is.

"It's my love for America that causes me to remain here and fight against the tyrannical greed that has infiltrated the highest eschelons of our gov't."

1) You are demonizing the gov't that represents our country, so you want to destroy the current system completely & start from scratch...
Hmm, now THAT'S Anti-American

"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should be open to ALL.. I believe fervently in those principals so"

1) Exactly! That's why we are trying to spread democracy throughout the world... duh, get a clue...

"Thusly, I rage against the greedy imperialistic elite that would seek to subvert those noble principals for their own ends without regard for the global community."

1) You sound like a martyr right now...
Like a fanatic, with purposes are characteristics to define oneself in individual glory, you sound like you're trying to be something to make yourslef important, but that's just my opinion.

posted March 28, 2003 01:39 PM              

"Saddam was a murderous dictator back in 1983 when he was shaking hands with Rumsfeld, as proxi pointed out"

1) We were counter-balancing Soviet power in the Middle East, or do you WANT communismnist power to rise unchallenged?

"But that didn't stop us from supplying him with weapons of mass destruction then"

1) So we supplied him with weapons of mass destruction... PROOF PLZ, give me a break

"Am I angry? Is it that obvious? Am I fanatical? Sometimes, yes. But jeez, somebody has to be extreme in feeling called to do their civic duty just to counterbalance the extraordinary apathy I see all around me while we drive ourselves to oblivion in our SUVs"

1) Okay, so you're trying to be a fanatical martyr again, civil duty to destroy the current form of government... hmmm

Sounds Anti-American to me

"I don't know how to be any other way than empassioned about protecting this sacred planet and by extension, ourselves"

1) How can you protect the planet with unstable regimes that lust for power & dominance like Iraq???

2) Don't you think we need to have worldwide stability before we can address these serious environmental concerns, expand your perspective

3) Don't you think that leaving regimes like this in power enables them to continue destroying the environment in a way that is far more reckless that our country does, AND they aren't even trying to reform like us!

"I can't in good conscious sit idle while we teeter on the brink of disaster. Which is obvious to anyone with a degree of sensitivity"

1) Sweetheart, it'll take a lot more than this to put the world on the brink of disaster, expand your perspective

"But our government is NOT the nation nor do they embody what we stand for"

1) 67% of American believe it is embodying Amercian interests...

2) You're the minority, your opinion goes against popular belief... maybe you are the one the needs to be reconsidering, or at least toning down the fanaticism

"Ideally we would have a government that embodied the principals this country was founded on"

1) But yet they spread democracy throughout the world

"I think your Pisces Moon is definetly trying to tell you something and I suspect it's that perhaps something of what I've been saying has struck a chord with that psychic Pisces infinite compassion. Could it be warning you that you are being lied to by the powers that be and that having blind faith in their leadership is extremely dangerous?"

1) Don' try to manipulate me, I can see it from a mile away

"I do want to share something with you"

1) Why don't you do us all a favor & stop sharing biased articles? Do you see me posting articles from conservative groups...? No, because I form & make my own assertations, w/o having to rely on ideas other people thought up to find my opinion.

No matter what happens, like the Borg said in Star Trek... "[your]Resistance is futile"

It's strong politically-minded people like myself who will make it into the system, achieve power, & continue to promote the broader perspective developing human civilization to an even more enlightened level, & will protect our achievements against short-sidedness & fanaticism

posted March 28, 2003 07:08 PM              

I, for one, firmly stand behind my President, I admire him for his principles, integrity and compassion. He may not be the most eloquent speaker, but it is from the heart of a Cancer Sun, Leo Rising. And no one is gonna change this Scorp Rising, 5 planet Leo stellium's mind, one iota.

In fact, reading the opposition only reinforces my beliefs that much stronger.

So, debate on, I enjoy the reading, but my mind stands firm.

posted March 28, 2003 07:17 PM              

The more educated you become the less ignorance you can claim, although ignorance is bliss.

posted March 29, 2003 03:16 AM            

quote:

---

Why don't you do us all a favor & stop sharing biased articles?

---

I wasn't calling you an ignorant person, LLeo. Actually you strike me as someone who is very working actively to educate hims-ELF in the ways of the world and I admire that. It just seems to me that you are lacking in a few crucial facts. I merely called your statement above ignorant because what I have repeatedly tried to get you to read is not an article of any kind really..not news or editorial...I feel like you ignore the main points of my posts at times.............

It's a statement of principals from the website of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) and I feel it's very important to understand what they envision for America because it's members include Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz.

This organization hasn't been covered in the corporate media very much, if at all (it's only barely starting to get looked at and we very well may start hearing more about it soon for reasons soon to be obvious...) and yet an understanding of their principals is something that I believe every American would be interested in hearing about, seeing as how it's founding members now occupy some of the most powerful positions in our government now..

I read the statement of principals, (I'll be honest, I haven't more than skimmed much else on the site yet...) and it struck me as very thinly veiled imperialistic ambitions for the U.S. I was just hoping you'd read the principals and share what you think of it. I suspect you will find plenty to like about it and will tell me that you think it's great and I'm just some sort of anti-American again..from the sound of your posts at times I get the feeling you support imperialism.. Is that true? PLEASE let me know if I'm off on this one, I'd like to be.

A couple of the most important things that PNAC stands for is increased military spending for an already bloated military budget which is obscenely larger than any other in the world..3% of which is enough to feed every starving person on this planet.. and they want to make it bigger so our schools can get even worse..

And then they espose a desire to "meet threats before they become dire'. This is a nice way of saying.. 'we want to wage preemptive wars.' Don't forget..our Vice Pres signed on to this statement back in 1997..things seem to be going as he and the rest of these guys had hoped..

I have no desire to see the US make a habit of blowing people up for no other reason than we suspect that maybe they might attack us in the future.
Those two points alone strike me part of a formula to build an empire. I don't think the majority of Americans desire to become the next Rome. I suspect that people like Cheney and Rumsfeld do though, and PNAC seems to very nearly confirm my worst suspicions....

Look, I really do grow weary of these little sparring matches...I'd like very much to keep this all in the context of love and light, as much as possible considering the topic...it's just that.. all to often, I get a sense of condesension, mockery and unfettered arrogance from your posts and not surprisingly, it rubs me the wrong way....I'm thinking probably somewhere in the vicinity of my Scorpio moon, ..and then, perhaps, it causes my Leo rising to respond with more of the same.
If I do, then I apologise.

posted March 29, 2003 04:09 AM              

That PNAC you have referred to a few times was a proposal written by Bill Kristol, an ex Harvard and University of Pennsylvania professor of Political Science who is now a political commentator and analyst on FoxNews Channel.

It is certainly no conspiracy to imperialize the USA!! PNAC is is a non-profit educational organization.

Ted Koppel had an entire show about it on his NightLine the beginning of this month, with Bill Kristol as his guest.

It was written and discussed because of the fear of Arab and other countries becoming overly powerful with weapons and the fact that during the Clinton years, our military fell below average in up to date equipment.

Military budget was at an all time low and the concern by the Republicans that the Democrats had hurt our military preparedness
by their refusal to increase funding for military needs.

So now, this whole thing seems to have spun out of control and the very context for which Bill Kristol and the team he formed to
research and write their findings. All the names you listed were contributers for certain portions, each separately researching a specific area of topic for the report, their names at the end of the
report in no way imply anything other than they participated in at least one project meeting or contributed a paper for discussion.

Much of the latter part is pure projection as to possiblities in the future and how the USA could prepare to prevent her shores
from being attacked by the new technologies developing in foreign nations. It mainly expressed their concerns of "what ifs", and how they counter attack them.

posted March 29, 2003 02:39 PM            

For me personally, increased military spending doesn't make me feel any safer. From my perspective, it seems to only make other countries feel more threatened and thusly causes them to scramble to make more weapons themselves. It's a cycle that perpetuates itself.

I will only feel secure when the US uses it's immense power and influence to foster greater justice and democracy throughout the globe. And I don't think force is the way to foster democracy either.

Imperialism -
The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

I see hegemony as counter-productive to fostering world justice. PNAC is all about maximizing US hegemony. I see the Bush administration as acting in total accordance with PNAC and I don't think that is conducive to world .

Just my ONION. I appreciate hearing yours.

posted March 29, 2003 07:43 PM              

I truly don't see hegemony in the proposal, nor do I see it as coming into reality. I only see it (the proposal) as an exercise in research and solution finding. I don't think it was written in stone to be enforced.

Just my "onion" of course.

Oh, the reason I don't see the hegemony, we really don't want to exercise control or predominant influence over the Iraqi, (I know, that is where my head is right now} or any other country. We simply want to free them to make their own choices. Plus, that proposal was written at the end of Clinton's administration, into the beginning of the present one, in the year 2000, long before our current situation.

I am not prone to political discussions normally, but of late, this world situation has caused me to start paying attention. But I really try to stay out of them.

I respect your intelligence and I think it is nice that we can agree to disagree in such a way that it doesn't cause any ire or hard feelings. That is why I stay out of these debates, LOL.

posted March 30, 2003 02:56 AM              

that is so funny. well actually it's not really that BIG of a deal, I am just sitting here and like, hey, I know that saying. Carlo!

posted March 30, 2003 01:38 PM            

I had a look at your story on the "common dreams" site. Must say, the Marxist dream isn't my dream, however the ignorance of the people they choose to quote is striking.

The principal focus of this piece of drivel is that troops in the field in Iraq have named their vehicle refueling stations Exxon and Shell and therefore, this war is about American oil interests.

I suppose it was beyond the intellectual capacity of illiterate scribblers like Oliver Burkeman to know that Shell, is Royal Dutch Shell, a Netherlands company in direct competition with US oil companies.

Ignorance is curable but I'm not so sure about intellectual and moral dishonesty.

You might wish to inform the Marxist friend Oliver Burkeman of his ignorance so he doesn't continue to embarrass you and the movement.

To that end, I have copied the relevant information about Royal Dutch Shell for your submission to Burkeman.

Royal Dutch/Shell Group

CEO:
Phil B. Watts
Address:
Carel van Bylandtlaan 30
The Hague, Netherlands 2596

posted March 31, 2003 06:59 PM              

quote:

---

According to a Cable News Network (CNN)" Business News" Report by Steve Young on 20 February 1990:

Saddam Hussein bought more than 70 percent of his chemical warfare arsenal or the makings from the so-called G-7 nations (major European industrial nations) Japan, France, United States, Italy, Britain and Germany; only Canada apparently sold nothing; experts say that's because Canada had no chemical weapons to sell.

A report commissioned by the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles details how Germany sold more poison gases (and) chemicals to make them and testing facilities than any other country in the world.

Sales by 134 different German companies have been documented and the number is climbing. So far, German authorities have indicated just three German businesses and are investigating 15 others, including Rhema-Labortechnik, that it's been accused of building chambers to test poison gas on Iranian prisoners of war.

According to Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center:
"The very same agents invented by German technologies in the 1940s and put at the disposal of a dictator were again recreated in the 1990s and put at the disposal of another dictator.

Saddam's chemical warfare connection in the United States include some curiosities; the Center for Disease Control sold West Nile Fever Virus (that can be converted into chemical warfare agents).

Saddam's chemical warfare suppliers include companies from Belgium (8); Switzerland (13); and Australia (27). In all, 24 countries sold chemical warfare materials to Iraq amounting to 366 companies."

To buttress this accusation, military expert Michael Leeden, points out that "German involvement with Iraq chemical weapons program started in 1977" and that "for over a decade German businessmen and scientists had played key roles in Iraq's $50 billion program to produce weapons of mass destruction, all the while claiming they didn't know Iraq was using their exports for military purposes.

The best American estimates suggest that a majority of Iraq's nuclear, biological and chemical capacity was provided by Germans. What's more, the German government knew about all this in detail."

Let us also remember that it was the Reagan administration with George Bush Sr., as Vice President, that guaranteed Iraq's supply of arms and military supplies during its war with Iran.
According to published reports, the Reagan-Bush administration "gave the green light to Western Europe to directly sell arms to Iraq" and U.S. arms "were trans-shipped to Iraq through third countries."

Moreover, during the first 18 months of George Bush's presidency, Congress repeatedly pressed for the imposition of severe economic sanctions against Iraq, but then President Bush "aggressively resisted them until the day of the Kuwait invasion (2 August 1990)." In sum, therefore, the Reagan-Bush collusion created the "dictator from Baghdad" and this "repeat offender."

---

Jakie

posted March 31, 2003 07:08 PM              

But hey, That's in the Past!

We no like him no more, & his a*ss is getting pulled... Why?

Because we are the United States of America, and we say so!

posted March 31, 2003 08:15 PM              

But, unhappily, while the United States has overwhelming military superiority over Iraq, it will be a reckless war, certain to arouse anti-Americanism, not only from the Muslim world but among U.S.'s allies in Europe and Asia;

While Osama bin Laden is still alive and threatening more death and destruction and Al Qaeda is operating in some 60 countries;

While the Arab-Israeli conflict is still raging and the Middle East remains a powder keg waiting to explode;

While the Taliban are trying to make a comeback in Afghanistan;

While U.S's economy can’t find jobs for more than eight million unemployed or provide health-care coverage for more than 40 million people, and while most Americans appear to be resigned, but hardly enthusiastic, about a war that is stripping them of their civil rights and privacy...

Well...maybe the world should let President Bush tells how this war will bring peace and security to the American people and to the Iraqui people...after all, as you said so, "we are The United States of America"...and I sincerely hope that God bless you (we) all .