posted March 23, 2003 05:58 PM            

Saddam has murdered more Muslims in the last 25 years than any other person on Earth.

By the way, you never mentioned where you were protesting when Clinton unleashed 400 cruise missiles on Iraq, without UN approval and where were you when Clinton bombed the Balkans for 78 straight days in 1999, again without UN approval.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/iraq/1217iraq017.asp
http://www.counterpunch.org/viet.html

You and your communist friends at A.N.S.W.E.R. and the Workers World Party are guilty of applying a double standard.

posted March 24, 2003 04:21 AM            

1. Deflect/Distract
2. Placate/Be Nice
3. Attack/Blame
4. Rationalise/Generalise
5. Leveling/Straight Talk.

Ironic because she was saying that Carlo was a frequent user of no.3 and no.1 ... (See here, in true Saggi style I'm using no.5 ) and now I'm reading jwhop's reply and it seems, from my perspective, to be such a perfect example the same - no.1 and then no.3.

How deliciously ironic. Really we all have so much more in common with one another than we'd care to admit sometimes.

To get back to the topic at hand though..

jwhop, I read that counterpunch article. Interesting. The reason I, personally, wasn't out in the street protesting Clinton's bombing campaign was because, frankly, I was just barely starting to pull my head out of the Alaskan snowbank it had been stuck in my whole life to try taking a look around at the reality of the state of world affairs and politics.
If I had been paying more attention I would certainly have been outraged and in the street.
Anyways, this is all distractionary from the main point, I think.

So Saddam murdered lots of people.
Now we are murdering lots of people.

The main point I got from this article is that war means alot of suffering and death and more often than not, women and children suffer the most. Your reply just struck me as belittling their deaths by not even having the decency to acknowledge that as a tragedy, in and of itself. Instead all you chose to do was distract and then attack.
I suspect because this article struck a nerve somewhere in that ultimately benign Leo heart of yours?

It does seem to me that you subscribe to the notion of 'an eye for an eye'....? Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but that's the only thing I can figure by posting about all the killing Saddam has done in response to an article detailing the killings and maiming done by US and Co.

I don't live by that philosopy though (or atleast I try not to - my Scorp. moon sure would like to at times!) because, in a nutshell..to quote a popular sloagan..."An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind."

War will never create peace. End of story. With human ingenuity being what it is (limitless!) I think it's time for humanity to 'grow up' already and start finding a better answer than just blowing ourselves up all the time!

you'll love this smiley I bet ..

posted March 25, 2003 10:21 PM              

Mourning father dead children in Afeganistan...

Jakie

posted March 25, 2003 10:40 PM            

When I read your posts and some of the others too, it strikes me that in spite of drawing the mantle of compassion around yourselves, it's situational. You don't seem to have any for more than a million dead Muslims Saddam has already killed, nor any for the citizens he routinely tortures and rapes. And what about all the future victims of this monstrous murderer, none for them either.

You are defending the indefensible when you lend your support to one of the most vile men on the Earth. Don't bother to say that's not what you're doing because bottom line, that's the effective result.

So, characterize my comments any way you wish Harpyr but I recognize compassion when I see it and I'm not seeing it from the war protesters.

posted March 26, 2003 01:28 AM            

The bottom line as I see it is that killing in response to killing will only continue the cycle of death. Saddam and his murderous regime will be dead along with thousands of more innocent people (collateral damage) and more likely than not, the some of the survivors of the innocent dead will not see us as 'liberators' but as murderers of their loved ones. Some of them may very well decide to take it upon themselves to exact revenge against Americans in the form of more killing.

The cycle perpetuates itself.

We kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?!?

posted March 26, 2003 01:39 AM            

The more we find out about Saddam Hussein the more reasonable people realize he has to be removed.

For those who continue to insist Saddam Hussein is no threat to the US, here's a very credible guy who says Saddam has already orchestrated 3 major attacks on the United States.
http://www.internet-grocer.net/alexjone.htm

For those who continue to insist no one has proven Saddam still has chemical and/or biological weapons, here's the House Task Force Report on terrorism from 1998.
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/1998/feb/report.htm

For those who think European nations are opposing the war to remove Saddam for altruistic reasons, think again. These nations have been rearming Saddam all through the UN embargo period. The proof will be found by the coalition forces when they find those chemical and biological weapons and pour over all the nice documents linking France, Germany and Russia to violating the embargo.

posted March 26, 2003 02:46 AM              

and that people shredder thing is not cool!

posted March 26, 2003 03:47 AM              

"Why Iraq?

I first crossed the border into Iraq in February -- February of 1991. I sat aboard a UH-60 Blackhawk that was packed with other soldiers and their gear and slingloading a pallet of supplies destined for Log Base Zebra. Days later, I watched as the Republican Guard retreated in column to Bagdad but we couldn't open fire. The cease fire was already in effect.

The absolutely horrible things I saw on the way into Kuwait City I cannot describe. I reckon, though, that the feelings that stirred inside me were akin to those of my ancestors when they looked across No-Man's land in Verdun to see their brothers suffering and dying trapped in the wire, or when they liberated the death camps in Bergin Beltsin or Auschwitz. How can I
describe what months of systematic looting, rape,torture, butchery, and murder can do to a population?

The Iraqi army in occupation in tiny Kuwait became as animals. They gang raped children. They tortured women to death and weighted down their dismembered bodies with cinderblocks to be casually tossed into the
Persian Gulf. There were so many corpses discarded in that manner that the Seal Team assigned to dive in from the Persian Gulf, come up on land, and secure the US Embassy could not get through carcasses and
ultimately had to turn back. How can I describe the lives and livelihoods Iraq destroyed in a few short months?

Can you imagine a sky so full of smoke that for nearly half a year one could not make a distinction between night and day? Can you imagine the smell, the terrible sweet nauseating smell of nearly a quarter of a
million dead? Can you imagine the disease which ran rampant among the occupied populace because Iraq refused them medical attention? They died from infection which turned to gangrene. They died of influenza and malnourishment. They died of Cholera
because dead human beings tossed into the water supply rotted there and contaminated the drinking water.

When people say that Saddam Hussein is not a
totalitarian dictator, that he is not a monster, that he is not a truly evil man, they are mistaken. He is quite possibly worse than Adolf Hitler. Hitler never
once used chemical or biological weapons on the battlefield, even in Stalengrad when they could have made the difference between winning and losing the Eastern Front. Hitler did, of course, use gas upon herding millions of innocent people into the showers. He had that done because of religious differences. Saddam Hussein has used them on Iranians and on his own people. It is very likely that he left chemical
weapons disguised in innocuous containers for the Coalition forces to detonate as if they were conventional munitions, thus infecting as many as 350,000 US troops. Don't you think, given the opportunity, that he would herd up anyone he could and
put them in the gas chamber, too? Perhaps he could state religious differences as the motivation.

He has not signed either the Geneva Conventions or the Nuremberg Accords as far as the ethical treatment of prisoners. He is guilty of or responsible for countless, countless millions of human rights violations.

When they say he doesn't support terrorism, they are mistaken. He has laundered money for terrorist organizations through his state run bank, the bank of Iraq, including Al Quada. He has provided euipment, munitions, training camps,and skilled "advisors" to those same organizations. One training camp has the
fuselage of a Boeing 767 and was clearly used to train terrorists in how to take over and hold hostage an airliner. And who could forget the fact that he once filled a commercial airliner with convicts and corpses and then flew it in the direction of a US Carrier Group based in the Mediterranean Sea until we had no
alternative but to shoot it down? What if we hadn't?

Some people ask why we have to go into Iraq. Why did we have to go into Germany?

Also, he is quite totally insane. Given time and freedom to accomplish his goals, the leader of Iraq could, quite literally, bring about the destruction of the entire world. Those who didn't capitulate to his
will could find themselves the victims of a dirty bomb, or a man-made deadly disease, or an occupying force of soldiers who are trained in the art of gang-rape, torture, and butchery.

The man is evil. His regime is evil. His purpose is evil.

Saddam Hussein IS a terrorist.

"We will make no distinction between the men who committed these horrible acts and those who harbor them." President George W. Bush

America is more than a nation, it is an IDEA. It is an idea that we, as human beings, have rights handed down
by our creator. It is an idea that these rights cannot ever be stripped, abridged, slighted, or removed. These are inalienable rights. It is an idea that we must, from time to time, roll up our sleeves and fight
and sweat and bleed -- and possibly even die -- in order to preserve those rights when some two-bit so-and-so tries to take them from us.

Just why is it that some completely wrong-minded Americans feel they need to go to Iraq and become "human shields." I say we should make no distinction between them and those who committed these horrible acts. I say revoke their American citizenship and bar them from reentry onto our sovereign soil. I say, seize their holdings and property and use it to the benefit of those who are fighting for America instead
of letting them keep it to be used, quite possibly, for evil deeds.

We see people like Barbara Streisand, Mike Farrell, Martin Sheen, Sean Penn, and Danny Glover saying how wrong our government is. They would say so regardless of whether we, as Americans, and we, as human beings,
were in danger from terrorist despots like Saddam Hussein or not. They would say so because they are liberals who never uttered a peep when Clinton ordered Serbia and Bosnia bombed back to the stone age. They
would make these remarks and spout this diatribe even if our friendly, fun-loving, peace-loving enemies had crashed a plane into Beverly Hills. (The terrorists
would never do that. Hollywood is their strongest ally and they know it.)

They are hypocrites. They are people who would spit on my uniform and call me a baby-killer while demanding taxpayer funded abortions. They are to be ignored or, if possible, sanctioned.

We see news commentators and organizations like AOL TIME WARNER who seek out the most vociferous liberal minded fool to spout nonsense and propaganda and then represent that uninformed voice as the voice of the
majority. It isn't. CNN ignores a pro-America rally of 30,000 people within sight of their Altanta headquarters to report on a peace rally of 300 scruffy looking individuals waving signs like, "Lesbians
against Bush" that took place miles and miles away.

I submit to you that the majority of Americans are not against Bush and have little to nothing in common with that pitifully small crowd of folks. We read the
endless debate in our magazines and newspapers about what a terrible precedent it will set if America goes to war. How will it do so? Have we not gone to war before? Was our very nation not built on the blood of our forefathers at places like Yorktown and Valley Forge?

I read an article describing how we (and this makes me laugh) will be war criminals if we do make war without obtaining the approval of the UN, Congress, the
Supreme Court, Tom Brokaw, whoever. Is William Clinton, then, a war criminal for his actions in Bosnia and Croatia? I read an e-mail describing how frightened High School children are that America will reinstitute the draft. How did we raise such a
generation of cowards and shirkers? Where -- WHERE -- is America's backbone? How is it that we have bred into our culture the concept that every citizen is "entitled" to all of the freedoms and liberty that we
enjoy without occasionally contributing to the security of the state? When did the concepts of duty, honor, integrity, and responsibility fall out of vogue? I hear about how harshly history will judge us
for our "unilateral" (such a lie!) actions. Imagine if we did not act. Would we have a history to render that judgment?

It is terribly easy to sit at home in the comfort of your living room and watch the media tell you that the "majority" of Americans do not support this war (a
blatant lie). For those foolish enough to actually believe that rhetoric, it is also easy to sit at home in the comfort of your abode and watch the media tell you that the "majority" of Americans do not support
our President and properly elected leaders (a total lie).

The fact is that most LIBERALS do not support any actions on the part of the conservative majority, even to their own detriment. Remember how Josclyn Elders,
then Surgeon General and Clinton appointee, allowed shipment after shipment of defective condoms to arrive in American high schools? These condoms provided no protection against either pregnancy or disease but Elders shipped them anyway and contained the secret
uselessness of the items because she wanted to support the "concept" of the action. Thus, undocumented numbers of high school age children contracted diseases, even AIDS at worst, or became pregnant because concepts and theories are nice, but they don't really DO anything. The entire time, they thought Uncle Sugar was "protecting" them. It is terribly easy to try to dictate to the military how the military needs to accomplish their difficult and daunting task, even having never served yourself.
This is much akin to telling a fireman how to fight a fire having never seen a flame. We have a society in which people are taught just enough in schools to think that they are smarter than others in any field.

To the armchair quarterbacks, get on the field yourself or hold your tongues. You honestly don't know what you're talking about. Let the experts do their work.
All of these things are terribly easy.

It is much harder to get off your butt and get on your knees and pray for the leadership of this country, pray for the servicemen who face this terrible thing,
and pray to God by His grace to grant you FAITH that this nation will win through -- FAITH that our leaders are slightly more informed than Dan Rather or Connie Chung -- FAITH that if we are to have a future,
justice demands that we intervene, right now, right here.

I may have to return to those powdery hot sands. I may have to return to that smell and that coppery desert taste. I may have to and I will do so gladly. I will serve. I WILL do my duty.

Don't dishonor me.

Don't dishonor the memory of the sacrifices made in September of 2001. Don't dishonor the sacrifices made by my brothers and sisters in arms who have given everything for the idea that is America (65 service
members have lost their lives so far in Operation Enduring Freedom). Don't disgrace yourself by dishonoring their memory.

It is time to make a choice. It is time to draw the line. It is time to stand tall and be proud and do this terrible and costly task that needs doing. It is time to support those who are down in the blood and the mud having a direct or indirect hand in the doing of it. It is time to remember what our ancestors fought and died to create and preserve."

posted March 26, 2003 10:11 AM            

I'm going to give you a chance to back your statement up with some examples.

"The bottom line as I see it is that killing in response to killing will only continue the cycle of death."

This seems to be the favorite chant of the protester class but where are the examples in real life. Please don't attempt to use the Israeli/Palestanian conflict. That isn't a war, it isn't even a skirmish.

In contrast to the slogan you're floating, I'll just cite the Germans and Japanese, both bitter adversaries of America in WW2.

Donna, that's some straight talk from Sgt. Bridgeman.

jwhop

posted March 26, 2003 10:41 AM              

jwhop, yeah I hear you. The info is already starting to come out about the Russian company selling jammers and if I'm not mistaken night vision goggles.

posted March 26, 2003 04:21 PM              

I just hope that this time it doesn't happen the same thing and Saddam disappears as Osama did...

posted March 26, 2003 05:27 PM              

1) Jakie, is that your expert military opinion??? That statement to me is just plain silly

2) You can watch a demonstration of how accurate this technology is on CNN everyday.

I watched one last night, they can put a guided munition into a target 1 foot square, with maybe AT MOST 12 inches of leeway in either direction...

You really aren't an expert so you should make generalized statements, they make your argument have less impact & merit, just a thought

Harpyr, whew! I don't want to attack you or anything...
But from observing your statements... to me, you are just so far out there to the left that you're about to fall off a cliff.

I think it's safe to say, and I'd like to here a consensus on this... that you could quite possibly anti-American?

Has the gov't done something to you personally that has upset you? Where is all this anger & (what I would observe as) fanaticism coming from?

It seems more like a personal mission to discredit & destroy this nation & what it stands for more than anything else...

I'm being serious, I don't mean this as a snide remark, or to hurt your feelings or anything.

I respect how firmly you fight for your beliefs & stand up to people, I respect it a lot.

But it's gotten to the point that I'm starting to wonder if there's something more there... it just seems to me that there is...

Is there something you would like to share?

Or maybe my Pisces Moon is working in overdrive again & is way off.

posted March 26, 2003 05:45 PM              

Just a thought

posted March 26, 2003 06:01 PM              

he doesnt HAVE any missiles that can reach further than Iran, and its highly unlikely since the sattelite and general air surveillance on most hotspots in the country are likely to notice any movements as soon as they happen.

And i still think it'd be far easier just to stick him with one cruise missile or a special ops team instead of bombing the crap out of an entire city. There were better and easier ways to handle this.

posted March 26, 2003 06:25 PM              

...how is that Anti-American...?

Or, perhaps you were referring to this:
"... and more likely than not, the some of the survivors of the innocent dead will not see us as 'liberators' but as murderers of their loved ones. Some of them may very well decide to take it upon themselves to exact revenge against Americans in the form of more killing,"

Do you honestly take that as anti-American (not to attack you, but b/c I genuinely want to know how you take comments)?
See, that thought didn't even cross my mind when I read that; I saw a rather matter-of-fact statement of how she believes the Iraqi people will respond to the deaths of many of their loved ones. I've talked with some people from over there who've said that their family members now see the US as a greater tyrant and threat than Saddam - and they hate Saddam.
I, personally, cannot say that I entirely understand their viewpoint (as he is, as Eddie Izzard said re: Hitler, a Mass-Murdering F*ck Head), but relations with people (and, by extension, their governments) are as much about perception as about anything else. In the long term view of things, I do not see how we expect to operate in that country and in that region if the population despises us...especially if we do not expect to rile up a brand spankin' new batch of terrorists (as people will become when they see that they are fighting against a force with conventional fire/manpower far outstripping their own).

posted March 26, 2003 06:26 PM              

1) Dude, don't you think we would have done this if we could???

2) He has 20 look-a-likes that pose as him to throw off agents

3) He has a personal security force just to diguise his location & confuse all who want to know where he is

4) We are not allowed to assassinate leaders of foreign countries, we have a law signed by President Ford forbidding it

posted March 26, 2003 06:27 PM            

"he doesnt HAVE any missiles that can reach further than Iran, and its highly unlikely since the sattelite and general air surveillance on most hotspots in the country are likely to notice any movements as soon as they happen."

jwhop

posted March 26, 2003 06:37 PM            

Don't know if you saw this but a former "peacenik" spilled the beans on Saddam when he escaped to Jordan.
http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2003/3/24/95147

I also heard on the news today that coalition forces have found artillery shells loaded with chemical agents where they overran Iraqi forces. Those artillery shells have Russian markings and were issued to Iraqi troops---according to the report.

posted March 26, 2003 06:41 PM              

C'mon, c'mon LL - like that's stopped us in the past.
Just call up some good ole' CIA or NSA ops. Hell, SF guys've been used to take care of that little problem in the past.

posted March 26, 2003 06:46 PM              

That's why Castro's still alive.