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Author
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Topic: "BUSH GO HOME!"???
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Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted December 04, 2003 04:46 PM
  
jwhop- 
Perhaps I was being confusing by slightly changing subjects. When I spoke about keeping dissent away from the media cameras, I was specfically talking about events where Bush is speaking or even just passing through in his motorcade. Obviously there were tons of cameras in Miami but still, outside of Florida, the coverage was next to nil. Infringing on the rights of others? First off..it was the cops that worked really hard to foster fear amongst the buisnesses. I, along with many other activists, went to all the buisnesses in the area talking to them and sharing information about why were were there and trying to reaasure them that we intended no violence towards them or their property. And NONE was inflicted upon the local buisness there.
In fact, the buisnesses that chose to stay open did brisk buisness that day..especially the restaurants.. Well, as for the rights of the commuters that were infringed upon..That is pretty miniscule in comparison to the amount of people whose rights are infringed upon by NAFTA- to be further extended by the FTAA.
E.G.-The state of California outlawed a fuel additive (MBTE)that was poisoning groundwater and causing cancer. So then the Canadian company that created it invoked NAFTA's chapter 11 and sued the state for billions because of a loss of profits. This is the sort of thing that completely undermines democracy..A country could very easily be intimidated into not passing labor or enviromental laws to protect themselves out of fear of being sued....that seems like a much worse infringement of rights to me. That's the sort of thing they are looking to spread even farther. Corporate powers infringing into areas that should be democratically decided by the people. The way I see it, Americans don't really realize what is at stake here. Most people aren't readily given all the information to make an informed decision for themselves. Not that the information isn't out there. It just takes some effort to dredge it up. Most people are to busy being lulled into complacency by their T.V.s....  : My $.02. IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 05, 2003 01:04 PM
Harpyr I was talking about keeping protesters away from the site where the President is speaking too. The people who came to hear what he has to say deserve to be able to hear it. Nevertheless, there are more cameras on the protesters than on the President. The media seems to take delight in showing flag burnings and getting pictures of protesters and comments, hopefully of the most outrageous examples they can find. Since the FTAA meeting was held in Miami and the protests occurred there, that's exactly where I would expect the media coverage to be focused, instead of NY, for instance. Police didn't need to foster fear amongst the shop owners. Those shop owners had already seen the property damage done in Seattle by radical extremist protesters. Everyone saw these pictures which are some to the mildest and lots of others much more graphic. 
jwhop
IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted December 06, 2003 03:41 PM
Ahhh! Free speech is such a beautiful thing,but the things that you can hear only can get distorted,especially when they fall on deaf ears.IP: Logged |
StarLover33
unregistered
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posted December 06, 2003 08:14 PM
I have to disagree with you on your media claim Jwhop. I live in New England and there is next to nil of any coverage having do with protestors or anything against government policies. If there was any coverage it was probably becuase of the extreme violence. I had no idea about Miami until Harpyr told me on this site. NO FREAKIN' CLUE ON WHAT WAS GOING ON IN MIAMI. FTAA who? What does that mean to me in Mass? In my opinion the media worships our benevolent government. Muckrakers are dead. -StarLover IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 4782
From: The Goober Galaxy
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 07, 2003 12:29 AM
 ------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 07, 2003 12:52 AM
Hi StarI hope you're not suggesting the national news CBS, ABC and NBC with Rather, Jennings and Brokaw didn't cover the story including the protests on the nightly news and that CNN wasn't all over the story along with the Associated Press and Reuters. Are you, or don't you watch national news broadcasts? I can't speak to what the coverage was on the local news in your area because it's more focused on that general locality, local events, local sports and the weather. Just to satisfy my curiosity, what newspapers do you read? Boston Globe runs AP and Reuters news stories just like all the major newspapers even if they didn't send a team to Miami. jwhop IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted December 07, 2003 12:02 PM
well jwhop, whether or not they needed to show them the pictures is beside the point. The fact is the police methodically made rounds to all the shops in the downtown area with pictures of Seattle, telling them that hundreds of violent protesters were decending on the city for no other purpose other than to destroy it. A complete and total fallacy. I know they did this because several shopkeepers told me personally. Now, the police failed to mention that those windows being smashed were primarily international corporations, but hey, violence is violence right? I think the real point is, there were no windows smashed in Miami. That was not the reason the activists were there. This is not 1999 anymore and alot of activists that previously had been all for smashing windows have seen that refocusing that anger elsewhere is more effective. Networking between radical anarchists and unions and other more conservative groups of people who share similar views about the pitfalls of neo-liberal globalization are happening now and the movement is being transformed. Hey, John Sweeney, AFL president, even came to the convergence space to meet the activists there and show solidarity. Oh dear! Does that make Mr. Sweeney a Communist for using one of their buzzwords? Seattle was a very different time in activist circles. There is less divisiveness therefore less random, haphazard destruction. Activists don't have to worry about bringing the violence to the table anymore these days, the cops are perfectly willing to take care of that detail.
hey, starlover..don't despair.. I think there may be a new generation of muckrakers being born. Check this out.
Modern Day Muckrakers -The Rise of the Independent Media Movement IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted December 07, 2003 04:46 PM
One question to the wise(OK, maybe two),if FTAA would be so great,then I guess the "pipe dream" of NAFTA wasn't so splended considering that there was no money to be made in that either,is because it drove the illegal aliens even futher into this country from across the boarder?AND TWO,if FTAA did ever "lift-off" (for the better word of it),does this mean that the USA will be getting even more imports(ran by our own American companies)from MORE sweat shops filled with children placed in the middle of some jungle somewhere in a "third world" country? OK,I got one more.Why do they call it "America on line" when the main office is located in India? IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted December 07, 2003 07:57 PM
quote:
Why do they call it "America on line" when the main office is located in India?
 my thoughts exactly!IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 07, 2003 08:38 PM
Ozone, what do you hope to gain from spreading BS?This from Hoovers, a business directory of American Corporations.
http://www.hoovers.com/free/
http://www.hoovers.com/america-online/--ID__15558--/free-co-factsheet.xhtml America Online, Inc.
22000 AOL Way
Dulles, VA 20166
Phone: 703-265-1000
Fax: 703-265-1101 Key People Chairman and CEO Jonathan F.(Jon) Miller Chairman and CEO, AOL International and Web Services J. Michael Kelly
Chief Marketing Officer Joe Redling If you have information AOL has moved their corporate offices to India, please post it.
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ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted December 07, 2003 10:58 PM
What do hope to gain by always trying to prove me wrong?The thing is your only posting contacts of the offices of the bigwigs of AOL,but I'm talking about the fact that they run they're main office of the tech support and other operations(other features that aol has to offer) from India. It's like Philip Morris manufactures here in the United States,but they grow they're tobacco in China. Am I now suppose to post the mailing addresses and phone numbers of every hut that each farm worker lives in? IP: Logged |
pidaua
Knowflake Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 08, 2003 01:55 PM
Well they can't really buy the tobacco from here when we have pretty much killed the tobacco industry. Look at what the regulations have done to the tobacco farmers here in Maryland. They didn't even have the guts to help them grow other produce, so the farmers opted to sell their land to developers in order to survive. So to prevent people from smoking (which I do think smoking is bad)we have devastated a farming industry and caused more pollution and smog with all the commerical and residential houses we put in their place. Great plan.
As far as AOL, well, many companies are starting to farm work out to other countries. The calls centers have moved overseas, but they will be back. A study determined that the problem with having a call center in India is that even will all the English language training, they do not understand our slang or common inflections. Therefore they were not answering properly.
At any rate, most will be coming back to the US or other areas. I only know this because I work for a company that has a division that runs call centers in the US. IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 08, 2003 02:40 PM
Ozone quote:
OK,I got one more.Why do they call it "America on line" when the main office
is located in India?.
quote:
The thing is your only posting contacts of the offices of the bigwigs of AOL,but I'm talking about the fact that they run they're main office of the tech support and other operations(other features that aol has to offer) from India.
The main office for any corporation is their corporate headquarters, by definition. In America Online's case, that's in Dulles, Virginia. Well, I'm very literal minded, so if you don't say what you mean, you get what you get!  jwhop IP: Logged |
FishKitten
unregistered
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posted December 08, 2003 03:38 PM
It seems to me that America has always been based, at least to some extent, on protests that were linked with civil disobedience. From the Boston Tea Party to the VietNam War and beyond, we have used protests (and resultant arrests) to bring our views to the attention of the public. I doubt that everyone on one side of any issue is right and good while everyone on the other side is bad and wrong. We each look at events from our own perspective. However, the use of protest is one of the major factors that precipitated the American Revolution and has had pretty major impact on our politics ever since. (It sometimes takes a while, but changes do come as a result if the protests are supported by enough Americans.) Whether or not one agrees with the ideas or the methods involved on either side, protesting is as American as apple pie.IP: Logged |
QueenofSheeba
unregistered
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posted December 08, 2003 08:18 PM
On the subject of protesters...violent anti-globalization protesters who smash windows=violent fundamentalists who shooot abortion doctors peaceful anti-globalization protesters who wave signs=peaceful anti-abortion activists who wave signs My relation of the issue of globalization to the issue of abortion is purely incidental. Every party has its violent members, correct? ------------------
Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)! IP: Logged |
jwhop
Knowflake Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 08, 2003 09:00 PM
I don't see anyone here defending, supporting or advancing the cause of those who shoot abortion doctors, blow up their clinics or attempt to intimidate their abortion clients. Do you?IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted December 09, 2003 11:34 AM
"We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out!" IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted December 09, 2003 01:27 PM
okay..I do not condone smashing windows or hurting people as a form of protest.I do have a big problem with saying that someone who smashes a window is no different than someone who shoots a doctor.
Call me a freak but there is a world of difference between harming property and harming a human being. IP: Logged |
pidaua
Knowflake Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 09, 2003 03:13 PM
I agree is should be more like:Wacko Environmentalist that burns down a house and kills people inside = nutso antiabortionist doctor killer. Sicko Peta / ALF people that target and kill medical researchers = wacknut that kills abortion doctor. In any case, I think what QoS was saying is that the destruction of property, people and the fear through intimidation is wrong regardless of the cause. IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted December 09, 2003 04:59 PM
quote:
...the destruction of property, people and the fear through intimidation is wrong regardless of the cause.
I agree. What gets to me though is that the police are allowed to use all these tactics in the name of their cause (enforcing laws) and they are not held accountable for it. And I'm mostly talking about laws of questionable constitutionality. Like in Miami, they passed a law (just for the FTAA meeting..) stating that 8 or more people gathered or walking in a public area for more than 29 minutes was illegal. Many people were unjustly arrested, abused and had their possesions lost or destroyed for breaking this clearly unconstitutional law. This is the sort of thing one would expect to see in a military state, fer cryin out loud! IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted December 10, 2003 11:48 AM
This is what I'm talking about,people in this country are inviting SOCIALISM into this country,just for the savehold of providing peace into this nation? The thing is,if people are feeling safer from people that commit crime,what would make them think that they would feel any safer from the ones that enforce extreme laws. With all those big headhonchos that like to provide these commie acts against our freedom,will run out of criminals. Soon,it will be they're turn to run and hide from they're own safety,maybe in some "Third world" country,somewhere! IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted December 11, 2003 07:22 PM
Hey You:
Hey you,
Out there in the cold,
Getting lonely, getting old,
Can you feel me?
Hey you,
Standing in the aisle,
With itchy feet and fading smile,
Can you feel me?
Hey you,
Don't help them to bury the light.
Don't give in without a fight.Hey you,
Out there on your own,
Sitting naked by the phone,
Would you touch me?
Hey you,
With your ear against the wall,
Waiting for someone to call out,
Would you touch me?
Hey you,
Would you help me to carry the stone?
Open your heart, I'm coming home. But it was only fantasy.
The wall was too high, as you can see.
No matter how he tried he could not break free.
And the worms ate into his brain. Hey you,
Out there on the road,
Always doing what you're told,
Can you help me?
Hey you,
Out there beyond the wall,
Breaking bottles in the hall,
Can you help me?
Hey you,
Don't tell me there's no hope at all.
Together we stand, divided we fall. -Waters
IP: Logged |
Lindaland
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