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Author
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Topic: Free Higher Education for Everyone?
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Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 15, 2004 04:39 PM
  
In France, if one can pass the entrance exams, one is guaranteed a free education and a space in their local university. I think that access to higher education might very well solve many social ills we currently have, as well as reduce the argument of "haves vs have-nots" that is rife in society. It sets an individual up to take better care of themselves, make better decisions, and get better jobs, in order that they are less of a burden on the system down the line. This is something that I highly agree with, and many people I've spoken to, esp. on the right, advocate such a thing, usually in exchange for the reduction of some other program(s) (since the right is usually against raising taxes endlessly, and of course such a thing would not come cheap). Does anyone else have any opinions on the subject? What do you think? ------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
Yin
Knowflake Posts: 1951
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 15, 2004 06:30 PM
I agree with you, Isis.
The higher education in this country could be made more affordable.
I know capable and intelligent people that don't have the money to go to school and end up wasting their potential at low-paid, enrty-level jobs. Just found this. Thought, I'd share: http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/003659.html IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 06:59 PM
 I think that would be awesome. The *have nots* would be *have nots* of their own making (not that many of them aren't right now... but sometimes sh*t happens to people that they can't prepare for) I also think free higher education would solve a lot of the health issues we were talking about on the other string. It would open up decent jobs to people that wouldn't otherwise have the oppertunity. I'm sure we all know that just having medical insurance doesn't make health care completely attainable with deductables and all. If people could provide themselves with good jobs, a lot of social issues would be eliminated. IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 08:34 PM
 I wanna hear other people on this one too... C'mon guys. Where are you? IP: Logged |
BloodRedMoon
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 09:18 PM
I think it's a good idea IF you can pass the exam... Of course there would be plenty of people complaining that the exams aren't fair and some people can't take tests and it's all biased anyway, etc., and thereby ruin it for everyone and put us at square one. ------------------
Follow the moon - Follow the sun
Let's make a deal this time to stay with the plan
All that is needed is one leap of faith
Everything else will fall into place
Your life is a canvas -The colors are you
IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 09:26 PM
Yeah, I suppose that is a good point.The average IQ in the US is 100. Half the people are lower  IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 09:27 PM
But... over time, would the national average go up since people are becoming more educated?IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 15, 2004 09:45 PM
I thought IQ is just plain innate brainpower. I was under the impression that you can't really, substantially raise one's IQ...IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 15, 2004 09:54 PM
Actually, I found this online Info About IQ It does say: "However, the 'Flynn effect' suggests that IQ scores have been rising over time, so that the initial norm of 100 is no longer valid. This is of course problematic because of different approaches to measurement." ------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 15, 2004 10:02 PM
In any case, there are alternatives to university education - in many countries one can legally leave school at the equivalent of our 10th grade, and enter into a trade school of some sort (or go to work in some cases probably). In New Zealand for example, and I'm guessing in many other countries, you don't go through to 12th grade (7th form?) unless you intend to go to college. You're getting the additional education required in the last two years (11th & 12th grade) to be successful through college. That way, the kids who aren't inclined to go to Uni can still learn a trade/career while still being minors and legally obligated to remain in the under the support of their parents anyway. So when they reach 18, they are set to go. Not all kids that go through 12th grade go on to Uni, but many if not most do. It seems to work well. ------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 10:11 PM
That also sounds pretty good to me.Some people don't aspire to do anything that can be taught by college. We have a couple trade school programs here for Juniors and Seniors in HS. It teaches things like mechanics, beautitian, and (I think) paralegal to name a few. My sister is considereing going to the school district's trade school for the beautitian courses. It seems to me there are minimum GPA requirements to enter the trade school. IP: Logged |
StarLover33
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 10:26 PM
You can get in IF you pass the entrance exams? I don't think so, I'm not a great test taker, and yes it would be unfair. You would be denying a lot of worthy people for a spot in college, and what about those who go to college for sports, can they pass the exam? No, they would probably be an exception, and that would be unfair for the rest of us, and so on, and so forth. -StarLover IP: Logged |
quiksilver
unregistered
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posted September 15, 2004 10:55 PM
Hey, I think this model of education is worth a spin, for sure. Assuming everyone goes through the same school system/curriculum, why not? If certain variables are controlled, everyone will be on equal footing when test time comes around and no one can complain about being at a disadvantage....IP: Logged |
Philbird
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 12:26 PM
Intelligence isn't measured by I.Q. tests, I.Q. tests measure how good your memory is.
Both Einstein and Edison had such lousy memories... they would never pass such an exam. Also there is so much tests, exams, etc. don't cover. Like ingenuity, creativity, and common sense.
A person with a minimal education can look at questions on an I.Q. test and think of five different common sense ways of answering the question, but many of those tests aren't based on reality. Therefore their answers would be "wrong" not creative.
I'm all for free education! But I believe the tests should include left and right brain questions. Not just left. IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 12:35 PM
IQ and memory? Hmm. I don't know that that is ture.I have an awful memory, linked to PTSD... well and other things  Anyhow, my IQ is well above average, but I couldn't tell you the name of the movie I watched last week... and in about a month, I won't even remember having watched it at all.  But.. I do agree that people of the right brained persuasion should not be excluded. I think Art is equal in importance to Algebra (or Grammar, or anything else *left* brained) IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 16, 2004 12:44 PM
quote:
You can get in IF you pass the entrance exams? I don't think so, I'm not a great test taker, and yes it would be unfair.
Why? Because you're not a good test taker it wouldn't be fair? I think that's too subjective to be fair. quote:
You would be denying a lot of worthy people for a spot in college
Why? On what basis? quote:
and what about those who go to college for sports, can they pass the exam?
Well, I would argue that education isn't about sports. I think it's a good thing if they quit allowing people who aren't intellectually up for a college education, admission based soley on athletic ability. I mean, to be clear, are you seriously suggesting that people who are allowed into college not on academic merit, but solely on athletic ability, is fair, while arguing that having exams is not fair based on the fact that you don't test well? quote:
No, they would probably be an exception
Hell no, they wouldn't be admitted - they would be held to the same requirements as everyone else.I just find it apalling that you would write it off entirely based on your inability (and those like you) to take tests, and based on an already existing inequity of allowing athletes soley based on their athletic ability. Here's an idea - how bout they spend time in school working with children to better deal with stress and pressure, so that they CAN take tests better, rather than just giving up and saying, "nope, can't do it, so forget it"...talk about aim low...I'd rather raise everyone up to a higher common denominator, instead of dragging everyone down to the lowest common denominator... ------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
StarLover33
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 01:31 PM
It's not fair on a lot of levels, but you don't understand that, because you're not a high school senior getting ready to go to college like me. So I can tell you that a lot of INCREDIBLE kids get left out becuase their SAT score was low, when in reality they were just as smart, intelligent, and capable enough of going to a particular college of their choice. Tests raise anxiety levels, and anxiety hurts your chances of getting a good score. I know kids who get so scared in a particular subject for example math, study extremely hard, and then fail the most important test of the year, becuase when they saw that stupid piece of paper, their mind just blanked out, and it wasn't because they were stupid or lazy, but because the anxiety was too much. Trust me I know how that feels, and it sucks that an elitist test like the SAT is the only way for a college admissions board to know how smart you are. People are smart on many levels, and a written test doesn't show that. They're stupid pieces of paper meant to indoctrinate you into society. So the problem is, society doesn't understand that, and they put pressure on kids to pass a test in order for them to graduate high school and beyond. I had to pass a test to graduate high school, which was a total piece of garbage, and now I have to take a stupid SAT in order for colleges to admit me into their system. Do you realize what kind of pressure that is? So don't put a kids life on the line, because they can't pass a stupid test. So try to tell kids they can have Free Higher Education, IF and only IF, they can pass the most important test of their life. I will tell you right now, a handful of kids will jump off a cliff over that statement. They already do something similar in Asia, and people commit suicide when they didn't mark as well as the rest of their peers. Perfectly capable, but a stupid piece of paper didn't say so. Kids who are talented in sports, will always get special treatment from colleges, and they can be the dumbest kid on the planet, and that simply is well known. Sports is their free ticket, and I guess that is fine in some respects.
P.S. Free education, I tell you what free education is, picking up a book and reading it.
-StarLover IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 16, 2004 02:13 PM
No, I have no idea what it's like, because I've never been a HS Jr/Sr facing going to college and taking the SATs  I came into existence at 30, so I've no idea what it's like to be a teenager trying to get into college  You need to step out of the mindset of what currently exists, because we're talking about what could be...re: entrance exams, we're not talking about utilizing the current testing system - how about this for an idea - a completely different testing system (I'm not sure exactly what the test is that's used in France, for example)... I just can't believe you, a HS Senior, would balk at the idea of a free college education. Nobody ever said anything about people who don't pass tests being lazy or stupid. Here's what was said: quote:
how 'bout they spend time in school working with children to better deal with stress and pressure, so that they CAN take tests better, rather than just giving up and saying, "nope, can't do it, so forget it".
I hate to bring age into it, you are very mature for your age, however it's not uncommon for younger people to be short-sighted sometimes, and I think blowing off the concept of free education, with flippant answers like, "here's free education, open a book", merely because you don't do well on tests, or don't like the pressure those tests put on you (and if you think that is pressure, try raising children, being responsible for a mortgage, food, etc...that's pressure - I don't mean to minimize your experiences by any means, but rather put it into the context of life pressures, and how one set of challenges sets us up to better handle the next set of challenges), well it's seems a bit short-sighted. Just for a moment, try and strip away your fear/loathing of tests, and think about how it could be. Can you really think of NO way to help people deal with tests better, or do you believe some people have an innate inability to perform on tests? I don't, I think it's a matter of teaching people how to deal with them better. Perhaps changing the tests to reflect abilities better - who knows. But to just blow it off entirely without even considering the alternatives is not the way to make changes in the world. ------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
StarLover33
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 02:36 PM
I'm balking at the current test system. Of course it would be nice not to pay for college, but it would be just as bad if I couldn't pass a test to get into college in the first place. I don't want to fear that a test would completely deny me of a higher education. These tests already do, some colleges look at your score, before they look at anything else. If a test would deny me, then I might as well just pay to get in.-StarLover
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LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 02:44 PM
Yeah, Star... I have to agree with Isis about the preassures you don't even know you're in store for. You think SATs stress you out?Try having two children, a husband who just lost his job, no medical insurance, a car payment, a house payment, and school clothes and supplies to buy. (This is not me.. .but merely a hypothetical example) You are quite mature for your age, but even emotional maturity cannot prepare you for the life preassures of an adult. SAT preassure is just a glimps of the preassures you're about to face as an adult. Deadlines at work, promotions, employee competition, car payments, health insurance, 401K, credit card debt... there are so many more things in life that are much harder than high school tests. I understand why it's hard for you to see beyond your years. I don't think any of us were capable of seeing beyond our years at 18... mature, or not  IP: Logged |
ghanima81
Moderator Posts: 518
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 16, 2004 02:48 PM
I have soooo much to add to this thread, but I must compose my thoughts so I don't say anything out of order. Be back later...Ghani PS StarLover,
I know where you are coming from, so don't feel alone. IP: Logged |
StarLover33
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 02:50 PM
It has nothing to do with me being short sighted, it has everything do with a system that needs to be changed, and how a society needs some life changes too. I know it's only going to get worse, I'm not an idiot about the "Real World". I'm just talking about a test that could possibly deny students access to a higher education which would make their lives more difficult than it has to be. -StarLover IP: Logged |
Philbird
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 03:28 PM
My quam with the tests is... In life, you are never going to have to vomit up everything you know in three hours, in order to solve a financial problem. If you could do that, chances are you wouldn't have a financial problem. That's why you are trained when you take a job, they want you to forget everything you know and do the job the way they want you to do it.
Redesign the tests.
School teaches you a methodical way of learning, which makes some people look unintelligent, unintelligence comes from learning methodically!
I.Q. means intelligence Quota, how you compare to everyone else on the planet, NOT how you are an intelligent person.IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 03:41 PM
SL and Philly,What would you consider a fair testing standard for Socialized Higher Education?
There would have to be a standardized test... otherwise there would be a lot of abuse of the system.
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Philbird
unregistered
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posted September 16, 2004 06:16 PM
Getting rid of the "system" would be my first step.
The value of ALL fields must be considered equal. If they are, there wouldn't be a reason to abuse anything. Who gets in? Everyone. You would be studying what you wanted to study.
Where are the "tests" that measure your passion for an area of study? We live in a robotic society where only #'s can mean something. They can be programmed into a computer and evaluated and ranked by another computer. Nobody wants to be responsible for destroying hope face to face!IP: Logged | |
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