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Author Topic:   Dissidents Are Crazy According to Ohio Judge in Ruling
jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 13, 2006 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
May 1997: Pro-reform cleric Mohammad Khatami wins presidential elections on platform of easing social restrictions and improving ties with West, including United States. Khatami is re-elected in June 2001 but faces mounting pressure from conservatives. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Iran_US_Key_Moments.html


During Khatami's regime, Iran has opened up to the west, and political, cultural and economical ties have improved. While the US has bracketed Iran with Iraq and North Korea in the "axis of evil", it is not aggressively combative in its relations with Iran. Teheran's growing ties with India are bound to give it a higher profile in the subcontinent. Khatami's four-day state visit was extended by another day when the president and his 108-member delegation expressed a wish to visit Hyderabad's Hitech city. http://www.the-week.com/23feb09/events8.htm

Despite repeated landslide election victories, President Mohammad Khatami's efforts at reform have been severely hampered by the checks on his power that are written into the Iranian constitution.

He was propelled to power when he received 70 percent of the vote in 1997, capturing the support of women and young people and beating the candidate that the country's conservative clerics favored. In 2001, Iranians reelected him -- by a wide margin -- to a second and final term that ends in 2005.Scholars like Ramin Jahanbegloo of the Cultural Research Bureau have said Khatami's election changed the relationship between the religious conservatives and reformist politicians. "[Khatami's election gave reformers] an opportunity to ease restrictions on books and newspapers and to improve Iran's relations with the West and the Arab neighboring countries," Jahanbegloo said at a January 2003 talk at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars.

The Iranian constitution makes Khatami accountable to the un-elected supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, severely limiting his ability to capitalize on such movement toward reform. In Iran, the supreme leader, not the president, controls the military and makes final decisions on security matters. Iran's parliament must confirm the president’s cabinet ministers, but the supreme leader can influence those decisions.

Since Khatami took office, hard-liners have used their control of unelected bodies -- including Iran's powerful Guardian Council and the judiciary -- to block reform legislation, shut down more than 100 liberal publications and detain dozens of pro-reform activists and writers.

Khatami's hopes of implementing reform dimmed in 2003 when the Guardian Council, which vets all parliamentary legislation, rejected two key reform bills the president proposed. The two pieces of legislation would have limited the Guardian Council’s powers and the other government bodies whose membership the supreme leader largely determines.

Despite his power limits, Khatami has moved Iran toward more open relations with the West, and in 1999 became the first Iranian president to visit Europe since the Islamic revolution. Since then he has made several more trips to Europe and also visited Japan and India. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/iran/leader_khatami.html

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 13, 2006 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All peace loving and enlightened people of the world would immediately recognize the following "peaceful" gesture performed by these "peaceful and peace loving Muslims". It is well known and accepted throughout the world that when one is insulted, one's religion is insulted or when one's nation is insulted; then one has the right and perhaps the duty to kill not only the insulter but all the citizens of the nation from which the insulter hails.

Everyone knows there is a worldwide right to not be insulted and the punishment for violating that right is death, to the entire population.

That is why you will never hear Muslims insulting Jews by calling them pigs and vermin or calling for the total destruction of their homeland, Israel.

That is why you will never hear Muslims declaring women of the Western nations to be wh*res and prostitutes or calling the United States the "Great Satan".

Only the grossly uninformed, the intolerant and the totally ignorant would question the just right of Muslims to wipe Denmark, Norway and France off the map of the world or suggest "peace loving Muslims" should restrain or at least for crying out loud...speak out against what the intolerant, uninformed and totally ignorant would call extremists within the ranks of "peace loving Muslims".

Everyone knows such actions are totally justified when one is insulted and the penalty for the insult is death.

Everyone, except for the uninformed, the intolerant and the totally ignorant, that is.

GLOBAL JIHAD
Al-Qaida: Destroy
Denmark, France
Escaped member issues video urging
vengeance for Muhammad cartoons
Posted: May 12, 2006
12:18 p.m. Eastern
WorldNetDaily.com

Responding to the publishing of cartoons depicting Islam's prophet Muhammad, a video posted on the Internet by an al-Qaida member calls on Muslims to attack Denmark, France and Norway.

"Muslims avenge your prophet," said Libyan Muhammad Hassan, who escaped from U.S. custody in Afghanistan last July.

"We deeply desire that the small state of Denmark, Norway and France ... are struck hard and destroyed," he declared, according to Agence France-Presse.


Earlier this year, 12 cartoons depicting Muhammad published in Denmark's Jyllands-Posten newspaper became an international controversy, prompting the torching of embassies, slaughter of Christians and fatwas issued against those responsible.

In the 35-minute video, Hassan, dressed in military fatigues, is holding an assault rifle.

"Destroy their buildings, make their ground shake and transform them into a sea of blood," said Hassan, also known as Sheikh Abu Yahia al-Libi.

Hassan was one of four Arab terror suspects who broke out of the U.S.'s high-security detention facility at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan.

Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, in his most recent audio communiqué, aired on Al-Jazeera late last month, called for a global Muslim boycott of American goods similar to the recent boycott of Danish products. He also said the artists who drew the offending cartoons should be handed over to him for trial and punishment.

As Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin reported, a dozen young terrorists have departed Afghanistan, bound first for Iran and then Europe, where their mission will be to hunt down the Danish cartoonists.

The report was passed on by Hamid Mir, the Pakistani journalist who has interviewed bin Laden and assistant Ayman al-Zawahiri and who just visited the no-man's land along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

While there, he was told by Taliban sources in south Waziristan that 12 young men – nine Afghans and three Pakistanis – are on their way to Europe to kill the Danish cartoonists. While some carry Afghan passports and others carry Iranian passports, all will travel through Iran on their way to Europe, he reports.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50179

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Petron
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posted May 13, 2006 05:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well,first you post a vitriolic statement by khatami to back up your outrage and now youre defending him.....can you make up your mind please? it seems your outrage is selective according to which argument you want to make...

********

quote:
North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens. Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror.... States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons. (Applause.) Our war on terror is well begun, but it is only begun.--President Bush, State of the Union Address,January 29, 2002
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html

whoa yea, very diplomatic ...... no wonder they voted for Ahmadinejad

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Mirandee
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posted May 14, 2006 01:20 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bush wants this war as much as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does. Bush has said that Iran will be his "legacy." Bush is just as crazy as Ahmadinejad is.

THE IRAN PLANS
Would President Bush go to war to stop Tehran from getting the bomb?
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Issue of 2006-04-17
Posted 2006-04-08


The Bush Administration, while publicly advocating diplomacy in order to stop Iran from pursuing a nuclear weapon, has increased clandestine activities inside Iran and intensified planning for a possible major air attack. Current and former American military and intelligence officials said that Air Force planning groups are drawing up lists of targets, and teams of American combat troops have been ordered into Iran, under cover, to collect targeting data and to establish contact with anti-government ethnic-minority groups. The officials say that President Bush is determined to deny the Iranian regime the opportunity to begin a pilot program, planned for this spring, to enrich uranium.

American and European intelligence agencies, and the International Atomic Energy Agency (I.A.E.A.), agree that Iran is intent on developing the capability to produce nuclear weapons. But there are widely differing estimates of how long that will take, and whether diplomacy, sanctions, or military action is the best way to prevent it. Iran insists that its research is for peaceful use only, in keeping with the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and that it will not be delayed or deterred.

There is a growing conviction among members of the United States military, and in the international community, that President Bush’s ultimate goal in the nuclear confrontation with Iran is regime change. Iran’s President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has challenged the reality of the Holocaust and said that Israel must be “wiped off the map.” Bush and others in the White House view him as a potential Adolf Hitler, a former senior intelligence official said. “That’s the name they’re using. They say, ‘Will Iran get a strategic weapon and threaten another world war?’ ”

A government consultant with close ties to the civilian leadership in the Pentagon said that Bush was “absolutely convinced that Iran is going to get the bomb” if it is not stopped. He said that the President believes that he must do “what no Democrat or Republican, if elected in the future, would have the courage to do,” and “that saving Iran is going to be his legacy.”

One former defense official, who still deals with sensitive issues for the Bush Administration, told me that the military planning was premised on a belief that “a sustained bombing campaign in Iran will humiliate the religious leadership and lead the public to rise up and overthrow the government.” He added, “I was shocked when I heard it, and asked myself, ‘What are they smoking?’ ”

The rationale for regime change was articulated in early March by Patrick Clawson, an Iran expert who is the deputy director for research at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and who has been a supporter of President Bush. “So long as Iran has an Islamic republic, it will have a nuclear-weapons program, at least clandestinely,” Clawson told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on March 2nd. “The key issue, therefore, is: How long will the present Iranian regime last?”

When I spoke to Clawson, he emphasized that “this Administration is putting a lot of effort into diplomacy.” However, he added, Iran had no choice other than to accede to America’s demands or face a military attack. Clawson said that he fears that Ahmadinejad “sees the West as wimps and thinks we will eventually cave in. We have to be ready to deal with Iran if the crisis escalates.” Clawson said that he would prefer to rely on sabotage and other clandestine activities, such as “industrial accidents.” But, he said, it would be prudent to prepare for a wider war, “given the way the Iranians are acting. This is not like planning to invade Quebec.”

One military planner told me that White House criticisms of Iran and the high tempo of planning and clandestine activities amount to a campaign of “coercion” aimed at Iran. “You have to be ready to go, and we’ll see how they respond,” the officer said. “You have to really show a threat in order to get Ahmadinejad to back down.” He added, “People think Bush has been focussed on Saddam Hussein since 9/11,” but, “in my view, if you had to name one nation that was his focus all the way along, it was Iran.” (In response to detailed requests for comment, the White House said that it would not comment on military planning but added, “As the President has indicated, we are pursuing a diplomatic solution”; the Defense Department also said that Iran was being dealt with through “diplomatic channels” but wouldn’t elaborate on that; the C.I.A. said that there were “inaccuracies” in this account but would not specify them.)

“This is much more than a nuclear issue,” one high-ranking diplomat told me in Vienna. “That’s just a rallying point, and there is still time to fix it. But the Administration believes it cannot be fixed unless they control the hearts and minds of Iran. The real issue is who is going to control the Middle East and its oil in the next ten years.”

A senior Pentagon adviser on the war on terror expressed a similar view. “This White House believes that the only way to solve the problem is to change the power structure in Iran, and that means war,” he said. The danger, he said, was that “it also reinforces the belief inside Iran that the only way to defend the country is to have a nuclear capability.” A military conflict that destabilized the region could also increase the risk of terror: “Hezbollah comes into play,” the adviser said, referring to the terror group that is considered one of the world’s most successful, and which is now a Lebanese political party with strong ties to Iran. “And here comes Al Qaeda.”

In recent weeks, the President has quietly initiated a series of talks on plans for Iran with a few key senators and members of Congress, including at least one Democrat. A senior member of the House Appropriations Committee, who did not take part in the meetings but has discussed their content with his colleagues, told me that there had been “no formal briefings,” because “they’re reluctant to brief the minority. They’re doing the Senate, somewhat selectively.”

The House member said that no one in the meetings “is really objecting” to the talk of war. “The people they’re briefing are the same ones who led the charge on Iraq. At most, questions are raised: How are you going to hit all the sites at once? How are you going to get deep enough?” (Iran is building facilities underground.) “There’s no pressure from Congress” not to take military action, the House member added. “The only political pressure is from the guys who want to do it.” Speaking of President Bush, the House member said, “The most worrisome thing is that this guy has a messianic vision.”

Some operations, apparently aimed in part at intimidating Iran, are already under way. American Naval tactical aircraft, operating from carriers in the Arabian Sea, have been flying simulated nuclear-weapons delivery missions—rapid ascending maneuvers known as “over the shoulder” bombing—since last summer, the former official said, within range of Iranian coastal radars.

Last month, in a paper given at a conference on Middle East security in Berlin, Colonel Sam Gardiner, a military analyst who taught at the National War College before retiring from the Air Force, in 1987, provided an estimate of what would be needed to destroy Iran’s nuclear program. Working from satellite photographs of the known facilities, Gardiner estimated that at least four hundred targets would have to be hit. He added:

I don’t think a U.S. military planner would want to stop there. Iran probably has two chemical-production plants. We would hit those. We would want to hit the medium-range ballistic missiles that have just recently been moved closer to Iraq. There are fourteen airfields with sheltered aircraft. . . . We’d want to get rid of that threat. We would want to hit the assets that could be used to threaten Gulf shipping. That means targeting the cruise-missile sites and the Iranian diesel submarines. . . . Some of the facilities may be too difficult to target even with penetrating weapons. The U.S. will have to use Special Operations units.

One of the military’s initial option plans, as presented to the White House by the Pentagon this winter, calls for the use of a bunker-buster tactical nuclear weapon, such as the B61-11, against underground nuclear sites. One target is Iran’s main centrifuge plant, at Natanz, nearly two hundred miles south of Tehran. Natanz, which is no longer under I.A.E.A. safeguards, reportedly has underground floor space to hold fifty thousand centrifuges, and laboratories and workspaces buried approximately seventy-five feet beneath the surface. That number of centrifuges could provide enough enriched uranium for about twenty nuclear warheads a year. (Iran has acknowledged that it initially kept the existence of its enrichment program hidden from I.A.E.A. inspectors, but claims that none of its current activity is barred by the Non-Proliferation Treaty.) The elimination of Natanz would be a major setback for Iran’s nuclear ambitions, but the conventional weapons in the American arsenal could not insure the destruction of facilities under seventy-five feet of earth and rock, especially if they are reinforced with concrete.

There is a Cold War precedent for targeting deep underground bunkers with nuclear weapons. In the early nineteen-eighties, the American intelligence community watched as the Soviet government began digging a huge underground complex outside Moscow. Analysts concluded that the underground facility was designed for “continuity of government”—for the political and military leadership to survive a nuclear war. (There are similar facilities, in Virginia and Pennsylvania, for the American leadership.) The Soviet facility still exists, and much of what the U.S. knows about it remains classified. “The ‘tell’ ”—the giveaway—“was the ventilator shafts, some of which were disguised,” the former senior intelligence official told me. At the time, he said, it was determined that “only nukes” could destroy the bunker. He added that some American intelligence analysts believe that the Russians helped the Iranians design their underground facility. “We see a similarity of design,” specifically in the ventilator shafts, he said.

A former high-level Defense Department official told me that, in his view, even limited bombing would allow the U.S. to “go in there and do enough damage to slow down the nuclear infrastructure—it’s feasible.” The former defense official said, “The Iranians don’t have friends, and we can tell them that, if necessary, we’ll keep knocking back their infrastructure. The United States should act like we’re ready to go.” He added, “We don’t have to knock down all of their air defenses. Our stealth bombers and standoff missiles really work, and we can blow fixed things up. We can do things on the ground, too, but it’s difficult and very dangerous—put bad stuff in ventilator shafts and put them to sleep.”

But those who are familiar with the Soviet bunker, according to the former senior intelligence official, “say ‘No way.’ You’ve got to know what’s underneath—to know which ventilator feeds people, or diesel generators, or which are false. And there’s a lot that we don’t know.” The lack of reliable intelligence leaves military planners, given the goal of totally destroying the sites, little choice but to consider the use of tactical nuclear weapons. “Every other option, in the view of the nuclear weaponeers, would leave a gap,” the former senior intelligence official said. “ ‘Decisive’ is the key word of the Air Force’s planning. It’s a tough decision. But we made it in Japan.”

He went on, “Nuclear planners go through extensive training and learn the technical details of damage and fallout—we’re talking about mushroom clouds, radiation, mass casualties, and contamination over years. This is not an underground nuclear test, where all you see is the earth raised a little bit. These politicians don’t have a clue, and whenever anybody tries to get it out”—remove the nuclear option—“they’re shouted down.”

The attention given to the nuclear option has created serious misgivings inside the offices of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he added, and some officers have talked about resigning. Late this winter, the Joint Chiefs of Staff sought to remove the nuclear option from the evolving war plans for Iran—without success, the former intelligence official said. “The White House said, ‘Why are you challenging this? The option came from you.’ ”

The Pentagon adviser on the war on terror confirmed that some in the Administration were looking seriously at this option, which he linked to a resurgence of interest in tactical nuclear weapons among Pentagon civilians and in policy circles. He called it “a juggernaut that has to be stopped.” He also confirmed that some senior officers and officials were considering resigning over the issue. “There are very strong sentiments within the military against brandishing nuclear weapons against other countries,” the adviser told me. “This goes to high levels.” The matter may soon reach a decisive point, he said, because the Joint Chiefs had agreed to give President Bush a formal recommendation stating that they are strongly opposed to considering the nuclear option for Iran. “The internal debate on this has hardened in recent weeks,” the adviser said. “And, if senior Pentagon officers express their opposition to the use of offensive nuclear weapons, then it will never happen.”

The adviser added, however, that the idea of using tactical nuclear weapons in such situations has gained support from the Defense Science Board, an advisory panel whose members are selected by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. “They’re telling the Pentagon that we can build the B61 with more blast and less radiation,” he said.

The chairman of the Defense Science Board is William Schneider, Jr., an Under-Secretary of State in the Reagan Administration. In January, 2001, as President Bush prepared to take office, Schneider served on an ad-hoc panel on nuclear forces sponsored by the National Institute for Public Policy, a conservative think tank. The panel’s report recommended treating tactical nuclear weapons as an essential part of the U.S. arsenal and noted their suitability “for those occasions when the certain and prompt destruction of high priority targets is essential and beyond the promise of conventional weapons.” Several signers of the report are now prominent members of the Bush Administration, including Stephen Hadley, the national-security adviser; Stephen Cambone, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence; and Robert Joseph, the Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security.

The Pentagon adviser questioned the value of air strikes. “The Iranians have distributed their nuclear activity very well, and we have no clue where some of the key stuff is. It could even be out of the country,” he said. He warned, as did many others, that bombing Iran could provoke “a chain reaction” of attacks on American facilities and citizens throughout the world: “What will 1.2 billion Muslims think the day we attack Iran?”

With or without the nuclear option, the list of targets may inevitably expand. One recently retired high-level Bush Administration official, who is also an expert on war planning, told me that he would have vigorously argued against an air attack on Iran, because “Iran is a much tougher target” than Iraq. But, he added, “If you’re going to do any bombing to stop the nukes, you might as well improve your lie across the board. Maybe hit some training camps, and clear up a lot of other problems.”

The Pentagon adviser said that, in the event of an attack, the Air Force intended to strike many hundreds of targets in Iran but that “ninety-nine per cent of them have nothing to do with proliferation. There are people who believe it’s the way to operate”—that the Administration can achieve its policy goals in Iran with a bombing campaign, an idea that has been supported by neoconservatives.

If the order were to be given for an attack, the American combat troops now operating in Iran would be in position to mark the critical targets with laser beams, to insure bombing accuracy and to minimize civilian casualties. As of early winter, I was told by the government consultant with close ties to civilians in the Pentagon, the units were also working with minority groups in Iran, including the Azeris, in the north, the Baluchis, in the southeast, and the Kurds, in the northeast. The troops “are studying the terrain, and giving away walking-around money to ethnic tribes, and recruiting scouts from local tribes and shepherds,” the consultant said. One goal is to get “eyes on the ground”—quoting a line from “Othello,” he said, “Give me the ocular proof.” The broader aim, the consultant said, is to “encourage ethnic tensions” and undermine the regime.

The new mission for the combat troops is a product of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld’s long-standing interest in expanding the role of the military in covert operations, which was made official policy in the Pentagon’s Quadrennial Defense Review, published in February. Such activities, if conducted by C.I.A. operatives, would need a Presidential Finding and would have to be reported to key members of Congress.

“ ‘Force protection’ is the new buzzword,” the former senior intelligence official told me. He was referring to the Pentagon’s position that clandestine activities that can be broadly classified as preparing the battlefield or protecting troops are military, not intelligence, operations, and are therefore not subject to congressional oversight. “The guys in the Joint Chiefs of Staff say there are a lot of uncertainties in Iran,” he said. “We need to have more than what we had in Iraq. Now we have the green light to do everything we want.”

The President’s deep distrust of Ahmadinejad has strengthened his determination to confront Iran. This view has been reinforced by allegations that Ahmadinejad, who joined a special-forces brigade of the Revolutionary Guards in 1986, may have been involved in terrorist activities in the late eighties. (There are gaps in Ahmadinejad’s official biography in this period.) Ahmadinejad has reportedly been connected to Imad Mughniyeh, a terrorist who has been implicated in the deadly bombings of the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, in 1983. Mughniyeh was then the security chief of Hezbollah; he remains on the F.B.I.’s list of most-wanted terrorists.

Robert Baer, who was a C.I.A. officer in the Middle East and elsewhere for two decades, told me that Ahmadinejad and his Revolutionary Guard colleagues in the Iranian government “are capable of making a bomb, hiding it, and launching it at Israel. They’re apocalyptic Shiites. If you’re sitting in Tel Aviv and you believe they’ve got nukes and missiles—you’ve got to take them out. These guys are nuts, and there’s no reason to back off.”

Under Ahmadinejad, the Revolutionary Guards have expanded their power base throughout the Iranian bureaucracy; by the end of January, they had replaced thousands of civil servants with their own members. One former senior United Nations official, who has extensive experience with Iran, depicted the turnover as “a white coup,” with ominous implications for the West. “Professionals in the Foreign Ministry are out; others are waiting to be kicked out,” he said. “We may be too late. These guys now believe that they are stronger than ever since the revolution.” He said that, particularly in consideration of China’s emergence as a superpower, Iran’s attitude was “To hell with the West. You can do as much as you like.”

Iran’s supreme religious leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, is considered by many experts to be in a stronger position than Ahmadinejad. “Ahmadinejad is not in control,” one European diplomat told me. “Power is diffuse in Iran. The Revolutionary Guards are among the key backers of the nuclear program, but, ultimately, I don’t think they are in charge of it. The Supreme Leader has the casting vote on the nuclear program, and the Guards will not take action without his approval.”

The Pentagon adviser on the war on terror said that “allowing Iran to have the bomb is not on the table. We cannot have nukes being sent downstream to a terror network. It’s just too dangerous.” He added, “The whole internal debate is on which way to go”—in terms of stopping the Iranian program. It is possible, the adviser said, that Iran will unilaterally renounce its nuclear plans—and forestall the American action. “God may smile on us, but I don’t think so. The bottom line is that Iran cannot become a nuclear-weapons state. The problem is that the Iranians realize that only by becoming a nuclear state can they defend themselves against the U.S. Something bad is going to happen.”

While almost no one disputes Iran’s nuclear ambitions, there is intense debate over how soon it could get the bomb, and what to do about that. Robert Gallucci, a former government expert on nonproliferation who is now the dean of the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown, told me, “Based on what I know, Iran could be eight to ten years away” from developing a deliverable nuclear weapon. Gallucci added, “If they had a covert nuclear program and we could prove it, and we could not stop it by negotiation, diplomacy, or the threat of sanctions, I’d be in favor of taking it out. But if you do it”—bomb Iran—“without being able to show there’s a secret program, you’re in trouble.”

Meir Dagan, the head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, told the Knesset last December that “Iran is one to two years away, at the latest, from having enriched uranium. From that point, the completion of their nuclear weapon is simply a technical matter.” In a conversation with me, a senior Israeli intelligence official talked about what he said was Iran’s duplicity: “There are two parallel nuclear programs” inside Iran—the program declared to the I.A.E.A. and a separate operation, run by the military and the Revolutionary Guards. Israeli officials have repeatedly made this argument, but Israel has not produced public evidence to support it. Richard Armitage, the Deputy Secretary of State in Bush’s first term, told me, “I think Iran has a secret nuclear-weapons program—I believe it, but I don’t know it.”

In recent months, the Pakistani government has given the U.S. new access to A. Q. Khan, the so-called father of the Pakistani atomic bomb. Khan, who is now living under house arrest in Islamabad, is accused of setting up a black market in nuclear materials; he made at least one clandestine visit to Tehran in the late nineteen-eighties. In the most recent interrogations, Khan has provided information on Iran’s weapons design and its time line for building a bomb. “The picture is of ‘unquestionable danger,’ ” the former senior intelligence official said. (The Pentagon adviser also confirmed that Khan has been “singing like a canary.”) The concern, the former senior official said, is that “Khan has credibility problems. He is suggestible, and he’s telling the neoconservatives what they want to hear”—or what might be useful to Pakistan’s President, Pervez Musharraf, who is under pressure to assist Washington in the war on terror.

“I think Khan’s leading us on,” the former intelligence official said. “I don’t know anybody who says, ‘Here’s the smoking gun.’ But lights are beginning to blink. He’s feeding us information on the time line, and targeting information is coming in from our own sources— sensors and the covert teams. The C.I.A., which was so burned by Iraqi W.M.D., is going to the Pentagon and the Vice-President’s office saying, ‘It’s all new stuff.’ People in the Administration are saying, ‘We’ve got enough.’ ”

The Administration’s case against Iran is compromised by its history of promoting false intelligence on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. In a recent essay on the Foreign Policy Web site, entitled “Fool Me Twice,” Joseph Cirincione, the director for nonproliferation at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, wrote, “The unfolding administration strategy appears to be an effort to repeat its successful campaign for the Iraq war.” He noted several parallels:

The vice president of the United States gives a major speech focused on the threat from an oil-rich nation in the Middle East. The U.S. Secretary of State tells Congress that the same nation is our most serious global challenge. The Secretary of Defense calls that nation the leading supporter of global terrorism.

Cirincione called some of the Administration’s claims about Iran “questionable” or lacking in evidence. When I spoke to him, he asked, “What do we know? What is the threat? The question is: How urgent is all this?” The answer, he said, “is in the intelligence community and the I.A.E.A.” (In August, the Washington Post reported that the most recent comprehensive National Intelligence Estimate predicted that Iran was a decade away from being a nuclear power.)

Last year, the Bush Administration briefed I.A.E.A. officials on what it said was new and alarming information about Iran’s weapons program which had been retrieved from an Iranian’s laptop. The new data included more than a thousand pages of technical drawings of weapons systems. The Washington Post reported that there were also designs for a small facility that could be used in the uranium-enrichment process. Leaks about the laptop became the focal point of stories in the Times and elsewhere. The stories were generally careful to note that the materials could have been fabricated, but also quoted senior American officials as saying that they appeared to be legitimate. The headline in the Times’ account read, “RELYING ON COMPUTER, U.S. SEEKS TO PROVE IRAN’S NUCLEAR AIMS.”

I was told in interviews with American and European intelligence officials, however, that the laptop was more suspect and less revelatory than it had been depicted. The Iranian who owned the laptop had initially been recruited by German and American intelligence operatives, working together. The Americans eventually lost interest in him. The Germans kept on, but the Iranian was seized by the Iranian counter-intelligence force. It is not known where he is today. Some family members managed to leave Iran with his laptop and handed it over at a U.S. embassy, apparently in Europe. It was a classic “walk-in.”

A European intelligence official said, “There was some hesitation on our side” about what the materials really proved, “and we are still not convinced.” The drawings were not meticulous, as newspaper accounts suggested, “but had the character of sketches,” the European official said. “It was not a slam-dunk smoking gun.”

The threat of American military action has created dismay at the headquarters of the I.A.E.A., in Vienna. The agency’s officials believe that Iran wants to be able to make a nuclear weapon, but “nobody has presented an inch of evidence of a parallel nuclear-weapons program in Iran,” the high-ranking diplomat told me. The I.A.E.A.’s best estimate is that the Iranians are five years away from building a nuclear bomb. “But, if the United States does anything militarily, they will make the development of a bomb a matter of Iranian national pride,” the diplomat said. “The whole issue is America’s risk assessment of Iran’s future intentions, and they don’t trust the regime. Iran is a menace to American policy.”

In Vienna, I was told of an exceedingly testy meeting earlier this year between Mohamed ElBaradei, the I.A.E.A.’s director-general, who won the Nobel Peace Prize last year, and Robert Joseph, the Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control. Joseph’s message was blunt, one diplomat recalled: “We cannot have a single centrifuge spinning in Iran. Iran is a direct threat to the national security of the United States and our allies, and we will not tolerate it. We want you to give us an understanding that you will not say anything publicly that will undermine us. ”

Joseph’s heavy-handedness was unnecessary, the diplomat said, since the I.A.E.A. already had been inclined to take a hard stand against Iran. “All of the inspectors are angry at being misled by the Iranians, and some think the Iranian leadership are nutcases—one hundred per cent totally certified nuts,” the diplomat said. He added that ElBaradei’s overriding concern is that the Iranian leaders “want confrontation, just like the neocons on the other side”—in Washington. “At the end of the day, it will work only if the United States agrees to talk to the Iranians.”

The central question—whether Iran will be able to proceed with its plans to enrich uranium—is now before the United Nations, with the Russians and the Chinese reluctant to impose sanctions on Tehran. A discouraged former I.A.E.A. official told me in late March that, at this point, “there’s nothing the Iranians could do that would result in a positive outcome. American diplomacy does not allow for it. Even if they announce a stoppage of enrichment, nobody will believe them. It’s a dead end.”

Another diplomat in Vienna asked me, “Why would the West take the risk of going to war against that kind of target without giving it to the I.A.E.A. to verify? We’re low-cost, and we can create a program that will force Iran to put its cards on the table.” A Western Ambassador in Vienna expressed similar distress at the White House’s dismissal of the I.A.E.A. He said, “If you don’t believe that the I.A.E.A. can establish an inspection system—if you don’t trust them—you can only bomb.”

There is little sympathy for the I.A.E.A. in the Bush Administration or among its European allies. “We’re quite frustrated with the director-general,” the European diplomat told me. “His basic approach has been to describe this as a dispute between two sides with equal weight. It’s not. We’re the good guys! ElBaradei has been pushing the idea of letting Iran have a small nuclear-enrichment program, which is ludicrous. It’s not his job to push ideas that pose a serious proliferation risk.”

The Europeans are rattled, however, by their growing perception that President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney believe a bombing campaign will be needed, and that their real goal is regime change. “Everyone is on the same page about the Iranian bomb, but the United States wants regime change,” a European diplomatic adviser told me. He added, “The Europeans have a role to play as long as they don’t have to choose between going along with the Russians and the Chinese or going along with Washington on something they don’t want. Their policy is to keep the Americans engaged in something the Europeans can live with. It may be untenable.”

“The Brits think this is a very bad idea,” Flynt Leverett, a former National Security Council staff member who is now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Saban Center, told me, “but they’re really worried we’re going to do it.” The European diplomatic adviser acknowledged that the British Foreign Office was aware of war planning in Washington but that, “short of a smoking gun, it’s going to be very difficult to line up the Europeans on Iran.” He said that the British “are jumpy about the Americans going full bore on the Iranians, with no compromise.”

The European diplomat said that he was skeptical that Iran, given its record, had admitted to everything it was doing, but “to the best of our knowledge the Iranian capability is not at the point where they could successfully run centrifuges” to enrich uranium in quantity. One reason for pursuing diplomacy was, he said, Iran’s essential pragmatism. “The regime acts in its best interests,” he said. Iran’s leaders “take a hard-line approach on the nuclear issue and they want to call the American bluff,” believing that “the tougher they are the more likely the West will fold.” But, he said, “From what we’ve seen with Iran, they will appear superconfident until the moment they back off.”

The diplomat went on, “You never reward bad behavior, and this is not the time to offer concessions. We need to find ways to impose sufficient costs to bring the regime to its senses. It’s going to be a close call, but I think if there is unity in opposition and the price imposed”—in sanctions—“is sufficient, they may back down. It’s too early to give up on the U.N. route.” He added, “If the diplomatic process doesn’t work, there is no military ‘solution.’ There may be a military option, but the impact could be catastrophic.”

Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, was George Bush’s most dependable ally in the year leading up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. But he and his party have been racked by a series of financial scandals, and his popularity is at a low point. Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, said last year that military action against Iran was “inconceivable.” Blair has been more circumspect, saying publicly that one should never take options off the table.

Other European officials expressed similar skepticism about the value of an American bombing campaign. “The Iranian economy is in bad shape, and Ahmadinejad is in bad shape politically,” the European intelligence official told me. “He will benefit politically from American bombing. You can do it, but the results will be worse.” An American attack, he said, would alienate ordinary Iranians, including those who might be sympathetic to the U.S. “Iran is no longer living in the Stone Age, and the young people there have access to U.S. movies and books, and they love it,” he said. “If there was a charm offensive with Iran, the mullahs would be in trouble in the long run.”

Another European official told me that he was aware that many in Washington wanted action. “It’s always the same guys,” he said, with a resigned shrug. “There is a belief that diplomacy is doomed to fail. The timetable is short.”

A key ally with an important voice in the debate is Israel, whose leadership has warned for years that it viewed any attempt by Iran to begin enriching uranium as a point of no return. I was told by several officials that the White House’s interest in preventing an Israeli attack on a Muslim country, which would provoke a backlash across the region, was a factor in its decision to begin the current operational planning. In a speech in Cleveland on March 20th, President Bush depicted Ahmadinejad’s hostility toward Israel as a “serious threat. It’s a threat to world peace.” He added, “I made it clear, I’ll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally Israel.”

Any American bombing attack, Richard Armitage told me, would have to consider the following questions: “What will happen in the other Islamic countries? What ability does Iran have to reach us and touch us globally—that is, terrorism? Will Syria and Lebanon up the pressure on Israel? What does the attack do to our already diminished international standing? And what does this mean for Russia, China, and the U.N. Security Council?”

Iran, which now produces nearly four million barrels of oil a day, would not have to cut off production to disrupt the world’s oil markets. It could blockade or mine the Strait of Hormuz, the thirty-four-mile-wide passage through which Middle Eastern oil reaches the Indian Ocean. Nonetheless, the recently retired defense official dismissed the strategic consequences of such actions. He told me that the U.S. Navy could keep shipping open by conducting salvage missions and putting mine- sweepers to work. “It’s impossible to block passage,” he said. The government consultant with ties to the Pentagon also said he believed that the oil problem could be managed, pointing out that the U.S. has enough in its strategic reserves to keep America running for sixty days. However, those in the oil business I spoke to were less optimistic; one industry expert estimated that the price per barrel would immediately spike, to anywhere from ninety to a hundred dollars per barrel, and could go higher, depending on the duration and scope of the conflict.

Michel Samaha, a veteran Lebanese Christian politician and former cabinet minister in Beirut, told me that the Iranian retaliation might be focussed on exposed oil and gas fields in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates. “They would be at risk,” he said, “and this could begin the real jihad of Iran versus the West. You will have a messy world.”

Iran could also initiate a wave of terror attacks in Iraq and elsewhere, with the help of Hezbollah. On April 2nd, the Washington Post reported that the planning to counter such attacks “is consuming a lot of time” at U.S. intelligence agencies. “The best terror network in the world has remained neutral in the terror war for the past several years,” the Pentagon adviser on the war on terror said of Hezbollah. “This will mobilize them and put us up against the group that drove Israel out of southern Lebanon. If we move against Iran, Hezbollah will not sit on the sidelines. Unless the Israelis take them out, they will mobilize against us.” (When I asked the government consultant about that possibility, he said that, if Hezbollah fired rockets into northern Israel, “Israel and the new Lebanese government will finish them off.”)

The adviser went on, “If we go, the southern half of Iraq will light up like a candle.” The American, British, and other coalition forces in Iraq would be at greater risk of attack from Iranian troops or from Shiite militias operating on instructions from Iran. (Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, has close ties to the leading Shiite parties in Iraq.) A retired four-star general told me that, despite the eight thousand British troops in the region, “the Iranians could take Basra with ten mullahs and one sound truck.”

“If you attack,” the high-ranking diplomat told me in Vienna, “Ahmadinejad will be the new Saddam Hussein of the Arab world, but with more credibility and more power. You must bite the bullet and sit down with the Iranians.”

The diplomat went on, “There are people in Washington who would be unhappy if we found a solution. They are still banking on isolation and regime change. This is wishful thinking.” He added, “The window of opportunity is now.”

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060417fa_fact

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Petron
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posted May 14, 2006 01:27 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
just as i said in that thread back in 2004...i still believe there will be sanctions and air assaults for several years before a ground invasion.....just like iraq...

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Mirandee
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posted May 14, 2006 03:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Again.... what ARE we going to do when Iran decides to shoot off a nuke? What is your plan Mirandee and MG if you were President? Would you let Isreal be attacked, watch the TV as millions of men, women and children suffer from a nuclear attack and the subsequent radiation poisoning?

What happens if the Iranians blow New York City off the map? What then? Just declare it unlivable and walk away? Then b1tch about how Bush should have known better and prevented it? Just like she should have prevented Katrina?


That whole diatribe was irrational and extreme, Pidaua. You can be a very reasonable person on most subjects but when Bush feeds into your fears you lose both your logic and reasoning.

I fully know the situation with Iran and my stance is the same as that of my congressional representative, Carl Levin so I will let him speak for me in this instance.

A letter I received today from my Congressional representative, Carl Levin regarding the Iran issue:

Thank you for contacting me concerning U.S. policy toward Iran. Throughout my time in the Senate, I have closely monitored the situation in Iran. Among other things, I have supported efforts to encourage democratic reforms and to protect religious minorities in that nation.


The Iranian government’s apparent pursuit of nuclear weapons, support of international terrorism, opposition to the Mideast peace process, and repression of civil society have caused the U.S. to continue to distance itself from the government in Tehran. We must take a strong stand and work with our allies to address these issues.

The U.S. has had serious concerns about Iran’s domestic and international actions since 1979 when Iran seized American hostages in Tehran. Since this incident, the U.S. has imposed a number of sanctions, including bans on financial assistance and the sale of arms to Iran. The sale of dual use items was restricted when Iran was added to the list of state sponsors of terrorism in 1984. In 1995, President Clinton issued an Executive Order banning U.S. trade and investment in Iran, which has been renewed by President Bush. The Iran-Libya Sanctions Act (ILSA) of 1996 tightened sanctions against Iran even more. Further, I cosponsored the law that extended the ILSA until August 5, 2006.

Within the last year, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has made a number of statements that are deeply disturbing and detrimental to efforts to secure a lasting peace in the Middle East. His statements have also been threatening to nations around the world that formally recognize the State of Israel, which includes the United States. Furthermore, Iran’s clandestine nuclear activities and its attempts to develop nuclear materials and weapons pose a serious threat to peace in the region and could someday offer terrorist organizations access to fissile materials. Iran’s reluctance to cooperate more fully with the international community, especially with the International Atomic Energy Agency, indicates that the government in Tehran is not committed to taking the steps necessary to make the world a more secure place.

Iran’s confrontational stance toward the international community and its apparent pursuit of nuclear weapons have led some to suggest military action against Iran and its nuclear facilities. As always, the use of military action is one that should be considered and debated only after all suitable diplomatic options have been exhausted. I believe we must continue to work with our allies to address this situation diplomatically. In the short term, I support the continuation of U.S. sanctions and the imposition of international sanctions through the United Nations as necessary.

In order to re-enter the international community, Iran must fully disclose all of its nuclear activities and give up any nuclear weapon ambitions, as well as strive to improve its human rights record at home. I will continue to monitor the situation in Iran closely.

Thank you again for contacting me.

Sincerely,
Carl Levin

War should always be a last resort when all else fails. That is how I feel about Iran. Not a matter of a "get them before they can get us " mentality as the Bush administration's diplomatic policy seems to alway be. Which is not logical, reasonable or even sane. Especially when you are flirting with WWIII.

Regarding what you said about bitching about how Bush should have prevented hurricane Katrina, where did you get that, Pidaua? I never said that Bush should have prevented hurricane Katrina and neither did anyone else here on these threads that I am aware of. To even imply I would say such a stupid and illogical thing is an insult to my intelligence. That sounds more like something that Jwhop would say about Clinton.

What I DID say is that it was Bush's incompetency and his failure at leadership that caused more suffering and deaths to the people of the Gulf States in the AFTERMATH of hurricane Katrina than was necessary. I know that you and Jwhop have a hard time with the truth when it comes to Bush but that is the truth and everyone knows it. We all saw it happening on our tv sets. Apparently you and Jwhop were watching Fox News and reading Newsmax at the time the rest of the nation was seeing the real news. It was the only thing that Bush ever took responsibility for since he became president and I know it just killed him to have to do that so let it stand. It was a historical moment for him. It will probably never happen again.

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Petron
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posted May 14, 2006 11:01 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
maybe jwhop and pidaua think we should have invaded iran instead of iraq.......

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TINK
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posted May 14, 2006 12:19 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Shi'ite creed has convinced him lesser mortals can not only influence but hasten the awaited return of the 12th Imam, known as the Mahdi. Iran's dominant "Twelver" sect holds this will be Muhammad ibn Hasan, the righteous descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. He is said to have gone into "occlusion" in the 9th century, at age 5. His return will be preceded by cosmic chaos, war, bloodshed and pestilence. After this cataclysmic confrontation between the forces of good and evil, the Mahdi will lead the world to an era of universal peace." http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20060205-100341-6320r.htm


Interesting. So let me get this straight. We have one jackass in Washington trying his damndest to usher in the supposed 2nd Coming and another jackass in Iran trying his damndest to prepare the way for the Mahdi, neither of them seeming to possess even the slightest clue as to the Truth behind their respective religions.

Great. Just freakin' great.


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DayDreamer
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posted May 14, 2006 04:45 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Terrorism is your own doing, your own creation. I can say terrorism is wrong, but you fail to realize that your words and actions have greater power in creating terrorism. For every 100 people your goverment kills, you create at least 1000 new terrorists. Do the math.

Each time you kill an innocent child at least 100 new "insurgent" members are born.
http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive/atrocities.htm


Muslims have always been painted as terrorists only when they resist and fight back.

Saddam and the Iraqis were your friends when they were fighting Iran. You supplied them with chemical and biological weapons.

When the Russians invaded Afghanistan and they fought back they were freedom fighters.


Mujahideen (Islamic guerrillas) stand on top of a Soviet helicopter they brought down in Afghanistan’s Panjsher Valley, north of Kabul, in 1979. The mujahideen fought against the Soviet military occupation of Afghanistan during the Afghan-Soviet War (1979-1989). They used guerrilla-war tactics to ambush Soviet troops.

When the Americans invade Afghanistan and they fight back they are terrorists.....

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DayDreamer
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posted May 14, 2006 04:47 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why were the Palestinians expelled out of Palestine as if they were not humans in order to create the state of Israel?


Galilee October 1948, Ethnically Cleansed Palestinians on their way to Lebanon



Thousands of Palestinians were displaced


Who continues to confine the Palestinians by gates, blockades and checkpoints as if they are caged animals?


Who supplies Israel with weaponry to control Palestinians, who throw rocks and who have sanctions imposed on them. Why do some Palestinians resort to suicide bombing?


Stones versus tanks in Palestine
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm

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DayDreamer
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posted May 14, 2006 04:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who invaded Afghanistan and for what purpose, but to destroy the country and its people and to create more terrorists?

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DayDreamer
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posted May 14, 2006 04:50 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who went into Iraq based on a lie to destroy the country and its people and to create more terrorists? This was not done to liberate teh Iraqis but to return them to the stone ages.


What have you accomplished, but death and destruction and the creation of more anti-American sentiment throughout the world.


You must work to save your own @$$. I can say pretty things about peace and non-violence, but as long as there are rogue nations like the USA, so too will there be terrorists fighting back.

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TINK
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posted May 14, 2006 06:07 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're so right, DD, about Iraq's sudden switch from friend to foe and the Afghanistan "freedom fighters" mysteriously morphing into terrorists just when they outlived their purpose. Just different perspectives, huh? But political type hypocrisy is as old as the hills and EVERYONE is guilty of it. Newspeak isn't a novelty. Were Americans the good guys when we obliged the UN and the Euros and invaded Yugoslavia to protect the Bosnian Muslims? I don't remember a pat on the back from the Arab League back then, never mind a little assistance. Are we to play big bad cop only when the UN gives us the thumbs up? I don't want to see my country in Iraq anymore than you do, but I also don't want to be anything more than the UN's attack dog. And Iran didn't seem to give a damn about the welfare of innocent Iraqi citizens when they were bombing the hell out them.

Now this isn't meant to absolve American foreign policy. That's been slipping down an immoral slope since the Cold War days and it's rarely defensible anymore. But if we're going to go so far as to call the US a "rogue nation" we'll be tossing more than a few Middle Eastern countries into that wretched pit as well. I mean, who isn't a rogue nation??

All of this stupidity goes back to the creation of Israel. Israel is the rub.

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Mirandee
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posted May 14, 2006 06:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agreed, Tink and DD. We have never treated the muslims with justice and fairness. Some have tried. Jimmy Carter tried as president and is still trying but Bush single handedly destroyed all the efforts and hard work of men of peace with his stupid cowboy mentality. Never trust a leader who says that "God is on our side" as Bush said. As if God takes sides when it comes to humanity.

It's total insanity on both the part of Bush and Ahmadinejad. And the rest of mankind is stuck in the middle of their insanity. I think we should take Bush and Ahmadinejad and stick them in the OK Corral and let them shoot it out and leave the rest of the planet out of it.

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DayDreamer
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posted May 14, 2006 06:52 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bosnia? Well nice of the American good guys to get in there and rescue them. But really...they arrived a little too late. Wouldn't be surprised if the government waited unitl X number of Muslims were massacred before intervening so to reduce the Muslim population. Not too far fetched from what someone on this forum is suggesting.

quote:
From 1991 to 1995 the United States had been reluctant to act in Bosnia. But after Srebrenica, President Bill Clinton knew that although the American people would not like it, the United States could no longer avoid involvement there. Thus began the diplomatic and military policy that led to the Dayton accords, to peace in Bosnia and, four years later, to the liberation of the Albanian people in Kosovo from Slobodan Milosevic's oppression.

However,

quote:
Was Bosnia worth it? As we approach the 10th anniversary of Dayton, there should no longer be any debate. Had we not intervened -- belatedly but decisively -- a disaster would have taken place with serious consequences for our national security and the war on terrorism. Dayton reasserted an American leadership role in Europe after a period of drift and confusion. But the job is not yet finished, and it is encouraging to see President Bush and the new team at State recommit the nation, as they did last week at Srebrenica.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/18/AR2005071801329.html

Forget about the Arab League...eveyone including most Muslims think they can go to hell.

Didn't Iraq invade and attack Iran?

quote:
Iran was the first country to be attacked by Iraq (in 1980). While it was obvious that Iraq qas the aggressor and Iran the victim, America helped Iraq. Americans forgot this detail, but they (and their allies France and Britain) provided Saddam Hussein with arms and intelligence to fight Iran. Iraq used chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers. America never condemned that.
While America has accused Iran of sponsoring terrorism, Arab terrorists seem to obey Syria not Iran. The men who blew up the Pan Am flight over Scotland were from Lybia, not Iran. On the other hand, a US warship blew up a civilian airliner full of Iranian pilgrims traveling to Saudi Arabia, and all passengers died: no American has ever been indicted for that crime. That is the only criminal act in the history between the two countries since the Iranian revolution, and it was Americans who killed Iranians, not the other way around. (America did belatedly apologize).

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/iran.html


quote:
Now this isn't meant to absolve American foreign policy. That's been slipping down an immoral slope since the Cold War days and it's rarely defensible anymore. But if we're going to go so far as to call the US a "rogue nation" we'll be tossing more than a few Middle Eastern countries into that wretched pit as well. I mean, who isn't a rogue nation??

I don't disagree with you. However, it is not far fetched to say America is a rogue nation.
http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2001-12/21duboff.cfm

You can thank your current administration for leading the country even further down this very steep and slippery slope to the pits of rogue.

Today it does seem like Israel or rather Zionism and America's sponsorship of this, is part of the problem.

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Mirandee
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posted May 14, 2006 06:53 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an update on the other insanity in Ohio concerning Carol Fisher.

I received a copy of the transcript from the May 10th hearing where McGinty sent Carol to jail. Here are some quotes. I don't know whether to laugh or vomit:

"The fact that she's still wearing these protest shirts to her trials tells me that she's not focusing on the issues."

"But I haven't seen anybody in the exact circumstances of Miss Fisher has in her resisting, continuing to resist, hysterical behavior, accusations, ranting and raving about fascism. And this political, somehow aligning her arrest with Bush, and the political ramifications, as if this is part of the Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld response to her, you know. I mean, it's borderline delusional, and I want to find out if her behavior is delusional or not. I don' t think Bush or his group that she has on the shirt here, had much to do with the Cleveland Heights incident."

"I want to find out if there were other hysterical behaviors, martyrdom-type acts, where she's purposely getting arrested, or going through these type of things for attention, or whatever the issues are. Maybe she thinks, in her mind, that going to jail will help the cause, and she wants to sacrifice her freedom for the cause."

"If that be the case, and she's so emotionally charged about the war, W.M.D.'s, or the death toll, or the continuing escalation over there, that has nothing to do with her sentencing. I'm concerned about that."

"I don't want somebody going to prison because they think it's going to help a political issue."


I think it's the judge who is delusional to make statements like that in a democracy. I think the judge is the one who needs to be checked into a psyche unit for some severe evaluation. I think he is one of Bush's kool-aid drinkers.

May 11, 10pm: Carol Fisher has been released! We'll send out more info when we have it. In the meantime, this is an excellent development. But it's also NOT over.

We don't know what the judge and other authorities will do next. Carol's sentencing date is June 2. She still faces 3 years in jail and thousands of dollars in fines. We plan to appeal the verdict and challenge all the gross violations of her rights.

This info comes from The World Can't Wait organization

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DayDreamer
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posted May 14, 2006 07:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tink, and Mirandee,

quote:
Great. Just freakin' great.

Feel the same way.

Ahmadinejad is a kinda scary, but he doesnt have as much power as people think. I dont think he's one to attack. He has Mars in Pisces in a funnel formation. It looks like he is asking to be attacked and thinks that will bring the Mahdi

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TINK
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posted May 14, 2006 09:02 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Bosnia? Well nice of the American good guys to get in there and rescue them. But really...they arrived a little too late.

Man, we can't win with you, can we?

Bosnia was our first real foray into World Police mode. There was A LOT of debate here in the US as to whether or not we should go in. Much, much more debate than pre-Iraq. Many, if not most, felt the Europeans should have taken care of it on their own. But that "Yankee go home" mentality has a habit of quickly turning into "please help me" when the time comes to get their delicate hands dirty. It's a little sickening.

quote:
Didn't Iraq invade and attack Iran?

Depends on who you ask. The Iraqis always maintained the Iranians had started it with artillery attacks months before Iraq invaded. Either way, the war started after the Iranians attacked the American Embassy and took American hostages. Would it have made sense for the US to side with them?


quote:
Ahmadinejad is a kinda scary, but he doesnt have as much power as people think. I dont think he's one to attack. He has Mars in Pisces in a funnel formation. It looks like he is asking to be attacked and thinks that will bring the Mahdi

I agree. He's looking for an excuse to play martyr. He needs to play the I-was-attacked-first card otherwise he'll lose Muslim sympathy. Kind of how Bush uses 9-11 to do whatever the hell he likes.

I understand the Iranian Parliment is pretty ticked that he sent that charming little letter w/o their knowledge or approval. But it's the Ayatollahs that have the real power, don't they? Khatami confirmed that.

God help the both of them if they get what they want. I'm willing to bet they'll both be in for a helluva a surprise.

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Petron
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posted May 14, 2006 10:54 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

quote:
THE PRESIDENT: And the first goal -- first of all, all options -- the first option and the most important option is diplomacy. As you know, I've made the tough decision to commit American troops into harm's way. It's the toughest decision a President can ever make, but I want you to know that I tried diplomacy -- in other words, a President has got to be able to say to the American people, diplomacy didn't work. And therefore, the first choice, and a choice that I think will work with the Iranians is diplomacy. And I believe we can accomplish this through diplomacy. --bush jr Sun City Center, Florida, May 9, 2006

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/05/20060509-5.html


*********

White House dismisses calls for direct Iran talks

Reuters
Sunday, May 14, 2006; 12:31 PM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House on Sunday dismissed calls for direct talks with Iran to resolve the stand-off over its nuclear program, saying the United Nations was the best forum for those discussions.

"We think the framework we have is even better, we have a number of countries that are engaged with Iran on this issue, we are supportive of those discussions," White House national security adviser Stephen Hadley told CNN.


U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan urged the United States on Friday to enter into direct talks with Tehran, as have others.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/14/AR2006051400344.html

**********

Iran rejects incentives to halt uranium enrichment

Updated Sun. May. 14 2006 10:13 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Iran's president said Sunday that his nation would not consider any new deal offered by Europe to end its nuclear program.

Foreign ministers from the United Kingdom, France and Germany will meet Monday to consider offering new incentives to Iran to end its atomic ambitions.

In return, Tehran must guarantee that it will suspend its uranium-enrichment activities -- which Western nations fear is a covert atomic weapons program.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad insisted that his nation's nuclear ambitions are geared toward producing electricity.

"They must know that any proposal that requires a halt to our peaceful nuclear activities will be without any value and invalid," Ahmadinejad said on state-run television.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060514/iran_uranium_060514/20060514?hub=TopStories

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Mystic Gemini
unregistered
posted May 14, 2006 11:47 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Iran will not allow the US to take them over. I'll tell you that. He's making it very clear because he knows our government won't hesitate to start a war with them.


If someone threatens my country or even tells me how to run it or tries to threaten me. I won't hesitate to retaliate.


Our govt claims Iran will attack us this and that blah blah.


That's enough for me to feel threatened. especially when our country is known to bully other countries.

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Mirandee
unregistered
posted May 15, 2006 01:10 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For all his rhetoric it isn't really Ahmadinejad who actually rules Iran or who has the final say in anything. The Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameini rules Iran and has final say.

Iran President's Bark May Be Worse than His Bite
Analysis: For all his nuclear bluster, President Ahmedinajad does not actually rule Iran
By TONY KARON


Posted Thursday, Apr. 20, 2006


Iran's rhetoric on the nuclear standoff may be sounding increasingly confrontational, but the headline-grabbing saber-rattling of hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad often masks an important reality: Ahmadinejad is not in charge of Iran's foreign or security policy, and his sentiments may not be entirely shared by those who are.

As the April 28 deadline looms for Tehran to comply with the U.N. demand that it suspend uranium-enrichment activities, Iran's position has appeared to grow even more defiant: Last week, it announced that it had actually succeeded in enriching uranium in a laboratory setting for the first time, and Ahmadinejad followed up with some trademark bellicosity, threatening Israel and vowing to "cut off the hand" of anyone who attacks Iran.

But the significance of Iran's enrichment announcement, and Tehran's next moves, may not quite match Ahmadinejad's sanguine rhetoric. Iran's enrichment experiment was in defiance of U.N. demands, but it has not ended cooperation with the U.N. nuclear watchdog, the IAEA — in fact, IAEA inspectors are currently in Iran taking samples to verify Iran's enrichment claims.

Even the enrichment announcement itself bears some scrutiny. Ahmadinejad was actually upstaged by his most detested domestic political rival, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani — the former president who, despite the backing of supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini, lost his bid for a third term against Ahmadinejad. Rafsanjani broke news of the enrichment to an Iranian radio station several hours before Ahmadinejad, spoiling the surprise in an effort to deny Ahmadinejad the credit for the politically popular achievement.

Then, Ahmadinejad's speech emphasized not only that Iran would not compromise on uranium enrichment, but also that “nobody has the right to compromise.” That statement appeared to be directed at those who may be in a position to compromise over the president's head; the enrichment announcement, after all, actually gives Tehran more room for a face-saving compromise, since it can now claim to have kept its promise to its own people that Iran would not be stopped from mastering nuclear technology. But in so doing, Ahmadinejad was inadvertently reminding the world that although he's the elected president, he does not actually run the country.

As the Bush administration consistently points out, Iran is ultimately run by unelected, clerical leaders, and Ahmadinejad is not one of them. President Bush's opposite number in Iran is really the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameini. Khameini makes the final decision on all matters of security and foreign policy — including and especially the nuclear issue — although he typically abides by the consensus of the National Security Council. The Council is led by Ali Larijani, appointed by and answerable to the Supreme Leader, and a man who also ran for president against Ahmadinejad.

It is Larijani rather than Ahmadinejad who is managing the negotiations over the nuclear program. Ahmadinejad has only one vote — out of around a dozen — on the Security Council. So as much as he rattles his saber at the West, the President is in no position to act on any of this threats. He has to lobby for his position within a power structure in which his is not the dominant voice. And while Ahmadinejad thunders against compromise, Larijani and other elements of the regime have made clear that Iran still seeks a deal, preferably in direct face-to-face talks with Washington.

As usual, Iran's intentions are not yet clear, but one thing is. Its true aims are probably not going to be revealed in the fire-and-brimstone speeches of President Ahmadinejad.

Copyright © 2006 Time Inc. All rights reserved.

Knowing this is why I don't get all worked up when Jwhop and Pidaua go on about what this guy is saying. It's not what Ahmadinejad is saying that bothers me. It's what I know from the past with Iraq that Bush might do that should be our main concern. I know that Bush is talking publically about negotiating with Iran along with other nations and the U.N. but I also know that what Bush says publically is not what he does. He always says one thing and does something completely different. That should lead anyone with any common sense at all to not trust Bush and his administration by what they say. Especially the nations of the Middle East. Wouldn't any nation feel a bit threatened when the guy who went in and took over the country next door is now directing his attention at your country? Bush has been doing a lot of sable rattling at Iran too. Saying publically that you want to work this out by negotiating while at the same time building up for war and flying nuclear weaponry onto ships within Iran's radar range so they can easily see it does exactly instill confidence in Iran or the American people that Bush means what he says.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 15, 2006 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
maybe jwhop and pidaua think we should have invaded iran instead of iraq.......


Petron.. please don't ever venture to think what I believe should or should not be done or should be done. I would rather have the option to vocalize my OWN decisions - if ya don't mind.


DayDreamer,

I can't quite figure you out. You seem to hate American's, lumping us in the catagory of ignorant, you say we hate Muslims, but you then you intimate that we should ask peace seeking Muslims to show a gesture against war?

What is it you really want? TINK summed it up best, the US can't win. Foreign Countries hate us but won't turn down our money. You want us to save you from your tyrants, but then you get angry that we're there. You want our new advances on medical care, but you don't want to abide by our spending rules (meaning, you're not allowed to use the technology, equipment and money on those you "deem" as worthy in your caste system or for the "elitists")


You hate us, but you need us, then you disparage us when we come to your rescue. Most of the global community is like a spoiled child that is used to getting anything they want. Should mommy or daddy say "NO, not this time, well countries like India and Mexico throw themselves on the ground kicking and screaming "BUT WHY MOMMY? YOU OWE ME!!! HOW CAN YOU GIVE ME SO MUCH AND THEN PLACE RULES ON ME?"

How ridiculous!!! A war is waged on the US with the bombing of our barracks in foreign countries, the attack on the WTC in the 90's the bombing of the USS Cole and again with 9/11 (when we finally had the balls to take action against the Islamic terrorists - yeah, that's right...I said it ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!!!)

There are several Muslims here that have a HUGE problem with the US and feel that we deserve what happened on 9/11. You seem to have no problem telling us what we should do, yet chastizing us if we don't come to the rescue fast enough. You actually accuse my fellow Americans' and my government of wanting a certain amount of Muslims to die before we went into Bosnia. That is sick and untrue. Words like that make me wish WE never sent ANY of our soliders to help out ungrateful people like you that make those statements.

The funny thing is... the same Muslims that bad-mouth our Country sure don't mind getting an education here, forming relationships here, living and investing in our stock markets.

Tell ya what... this would be the simple thing for us to do.

Let's pull all the US Aid and make it all strictly business. If we need a material and another country has it... great we can make a deal - you sell we buy and vice versa.

If your people are being exterminated for being Muslim, Christian, Jewish etc.. YOU deal with it. If your country is hit by an epidemic that we could cure but you can't afford.. Touch crap... we'll make sure flights from your country don't reach our soil.

You bomb us - we strike back. No questions asked. No help in rebuilding your towns...etc... You're on your own.

Yeah... I like that plan. But it would never work and the envious global community knows our weakness... we care just TOO damn much about our fellow human being.

UGH...If only the US was a Leo and not a Cancer

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Petron
unregistered
posted May 15, 2006 02:59 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
maybe pidaua thinks we should invade iraq and iran......

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 15, 2006 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bush has not said he is building his legacy on the Iraq war.

Perhaps I've given you too much credit Petron. I posted Khatami's statement AND links to the facts of the position a president of Iran finds himself in to make a point. The point being that the president is not in control and must follow the instructions and direction of the Ayatollah...or he may be replaced. I can imagine what would happen to an Iranian president who stated a desire to make peace with Israel....and that would be more than being replaced.

Khatami tried to reform Iran and was overruled by the Ayatollah. Further in the last election, those who were reformers were not permitted to run in the elections. The election was fixed by the Ayatollah and the hard line radical clerics who offered Iranians no real choices.

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Petron
unregistered
posted May 15, 2006 05:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
jwhop you posted the statement by khatami first to back up your support for michael savage...only after i quoted your statements from 2004 did you try to say that things have changed with a new president.....now your making the opposite case again by pointing out that the president doesnt run the show in iran.....it seems you flip-flop more than kerry ......

btw, maybe you should reread that article with your glasses on......it says bush thinks IRAN will be his "legacy".......

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