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Author Topic:   Pvt. Matthew Scarano- 21 - Killed By The U.S. Army
salome
unregistered
posted May 17, 2006 06:50 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i apologize Pidaua...i dislike furthering this type of discussion with you. i appreciate your passion i even agree with you on occasion.

i am sorry...you don't deserve this. i didnt mean for it to progress to such a personal level, and i regret having done so.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 17, 2006 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okey Dokey... Truce? Sounds good to me because I am not all that keen on personal attacks either. Honestly, I do regret letting it get to that as well.

See, this is where I usually edit my posts so that other's don't have to see the name calling.

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Iqhunk
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 06:35 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Impressive display of maturity, Salome!
I would have exploded a couple of messages back itself. Lord Krishna has taught that one must withstand more than 99 words of rudeness and insults. The 100th insult causes instant karmic balance.
Krishna and Christ, both reincarnations of the same Being. Christ taught this law in a different way, by saying "Turn the other cheek" and "Judge ye Not". Both are very diffcult to master but they still have to be mastered someday by each and everyone.

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
LMAO... I love when the point is proven again and again.

Wow Iq, you are so wonderfully enlightened....


~Pidaua

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Mirandee
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 03:21 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
You and others like you only provide stories from "Altnet" or "wnd.daily" where the perspectives are ALWAYS against the US and against our Military.


I have never been to either of those sites that you mentioned, Pidaua. Your're the first place I have heard of those sites. Nor am I or have I ever said that I am against the military or the U.S. How many times do I have to say that? You refuse to hear it because like everything else it disagrees with what you choose to think.

I am against the Bush administration and their policies, not the U.S. You see, the President is only an elected representative. He is NOT the country. He is only a servant of the people. ALL of the people not just those that pay for his campaign or those of wealth and power. You seem to have little understanding of that fact. "People like you" tend to think of the President as BEING the country. "People like you" who do not look at all sides of things and question those in leadership are ripe for a dictator. You're a dictator's dream.

I try to pick my sources from reputable publications and I ALWAYS state my sources. This particular article was orginally published in national newspapers. Here it was taken from Counterpunch and printed in Mother Jones. Though you may not like Mother Jones it is a national monthly publication, has been around for years and is a reputable source. Besides, even if I did go to those sites you mentioned how would that be any different than the fact that both you and Jwhop ALWAYS go to conservative sites for the information you post? Why is okay for Jwhop to consistently print articles from Newsmax and other conservative Republican sites without any disagreement from you and why is it okay for you to do that but not for the rest of us to go to what you would deem "liberal" sites? Sounds hypocritical to me. Doing one thing and telling us we shouldn't do it.

In this case you went to an Army site and anyone with half a brain knows an Army site is only going to give you what they want you to hear. At an Army site you aren't going to read about a kid like Matthew Scarano who didn't just fall through the cracks of red tape and bureaucracy..that was only part of it..but was also abused by some sadistic military personnel in charge of the troops at Fort Sill.

You saw in the story which Petron posted that that particular base was subsequently investigated and even in my original post it stated as much and went on to say that one of the sadistic troop leaders was reprimanded and removed from command at Fort Sill. Why do think that happened? It happened because it made the news and because of the activist that Scarano and his mother contacted. It happened because many other Americans who heard about what happened wrote their representatives. Maybe the military itself did not even know what was taking place at Fort Sill until it made national news and had the support of activists. If that was the case then don't you think it should have been brought to the attention of those in higher command or those responsible for overseeing the military? The same thing applies to the incidents at Abu Gharib in Iraq. If it had not been reported to the news media by some soldiers who felt it was very wrong to treat those prisoners so inhumanely nothing would have stopped what may have been only a few sadistic individuals. You cannot bring about changes for the better if you choose to only see those things that make the news as lies or negatives or anti-military instead of seeing them for what they are, wrongs that need to be corrected for the better of all.

You see, it is in pointing out the wrongs being done to these young men that something was done to bring about a change at Fort Sill and that probably prevented the deaths and inhumane treatment of other young men in the long run.

Our nation and the subsequent Republic and Constitution of the U.S. was born due to men who had the courage to point out the wrongs being done to the people by the British. And they didn't just speak out about the wrongs, they took action which lead to a revolution that ousted the British and brought about the changes they sought. Then they formed a Constitution that provided for our freedoms and all of our founding fathers held dissent in high regard because they knew first hand that is the only thing that brings about change to help make for a better country and a better world.

Now, Pidaua, "people like you" and Jwhop want to maintain the status quo. You speak of patriotism constantly ...seeing yourself as the patriot and those that disagree with your views as traitors who hate their country... but you do not support the right of freedom to dissent. If you did you would listen respectfully to what people of a different view had to say without calling them names and attempting to tear down their character. All the things that you accused salome of doing ( cutting and pasting ) you have no way of knowing. It is really a bad reflection on your character, not salome's for you to do that because it comes off as you presenting yourself as intellectually superior to her. And we have no way of knowing that you aren't cutting and pasting so if we chose to do so we could accuse you of the same thing. Not that I think you are but it never entered my mind that anyone here does that.

If you do not support dissent - which was the very root at forming a democracy and the root of sustaining that democracy of the people, by the people and for the people - then you do not support the Constitution of the U.S. which has it's root in dissent and which was born out of dissent. You do not support freedom of speech if you refuse to hear a differing opinion. Debate is one thing. Name calling and tearing down someone who disagrees with you is not debate. That's just malice.

"The thing I hate about an argument is that it always interrupts a discussion." - G.K. Chesterton


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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 04:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mirandee, you are blatantly against the United States and hysterically anti US military.

From the first time you popped up on the other LG site that's been true. Further, I can't recall reading one positive comment from you on the United States.

The title of this thread..."Pvt. Matthew Scarano- 21 - Killed By The U.S. Army"
is the best indication of your mindset....which is another lie.

There is a vast difference between dissent and giving aid and comfort to America's enemies. You, leftists in Congress, the lying press and other leftists are engaged in the latter.

The irony is that you, the leftist press and leftists everywhere are directly responsible for the war in Iraq. Just as you, the leftist press and leftists everywhere are responsible for prolonging the war against terrorists in Iraq.

When leftists from A.N.S.W.E.R., a communist front organization for the communist Workers World Party were marching in the streets of America accompanied by communist narco terrorists from central and south America and representatives from the terrorists Hamas and Islamic Jihad, you, you specifically Mirandee, supported them.

You Mirandee and other leftists gave Saddam the mistaken idea he could ride out the storm, not bother to live up to his ceasefire agreement and get away with it yet again. Saddam got the mistaken idea all those protests would create enough political pressure to get him off.

In like manner, the leftist press, leftist members of Congress, leftist groups and leftists like you constantly badmouthing the war have given and still are giving the terrorists the mistaken idea that if they can hold on long enough they will win the war...not on the battlefields of Iraq but in the halls of Congress...just like Vietnam.

So, spare me the bullsh!t and spare me the phony display of compassion..both for our military personnel and for the citizens of Iraq whom Saddam and the terrorists you support were killing and still are.

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 04:20 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very well said, Mirandee....

You make yourself very clear and sensible....and you haven't resorted to calling anybody any names (which knowing you, you wouldn't do, anyway).

It's nice having you here...

Love,
Rainbow

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salome
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 04:27 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IQhunk ~

keep the faith brother...

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 04:48 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
from jwhop.....

quote:
Mirandee, you are blatantly against the United States and hysterically anti US military.

jwhop...you are a grown man, with a brain (I always thought)....and how you can make such outlandish charges against Mirandee is way beyond my ken of thought....She is totally the opposite of what you just said.

You also stated...

quote:
There is a vast difference between dissent and giving aid and comfort to America's enemies..

I asked you on another thread (which either you haven't seen or keep ignoring), just WHO the "enemy" is?

Just in case you can't find it....I'll REPOST it here.....

FROM THE THREAD WILL THE REAL TRAITORS PLEASE SAND UP.

I posted this to jwhop on 5/17/06

quote:
jwhop.....

You like to say that an act of treason is giving comfort and aid to the enemy...

Okay....

Do you know who the "enemy" is?

As intelligent as you are....I really feel that you do NOT KNOW who the REAL enemy is...

You've been too busy being 'sheepled' (or let's say socially engineered), into thinking it's the "democrats", the "commies," and the "terrorists." (maybe even all the muslims...I'm not sure!)

....anyway....

WRONG!


In fact jwhop.....I hope you're not losing it.....

That last post to Mirandee made no sense whatsoever....you're sounding like a loony tune, and I'm concerned because I always gave you more credit than that...

I'm sincere jwhop. This is not meant to be malicious...
.

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salome
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 05:04 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rainbow ~ concerning you, there is no such thing as 'malice'...the word wouldn't exist in a universe full of Rainbows.

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 05:08 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh....here's more...from jwhop...

quote:
The irony is that you, the leftist press and leftists everywhere are directly responsible for the war in Iraq. Just as you, the leftist press and leftists everywhere are responsible for prolonging the war against terrorists in Iraq.

Ya know, jwhop....my first reaction to that statement was to be bewildered by such a comment.....and being "formerly" from what I thought was "the left" another reaction of mine was to defend "the left."

That's "knee-jerk" reaction from my "social engineering" (which we're all subject to [a type of mind-control])

Since I've come to realize that there is NO RIGHT AND NO LEFT (which we're all conditioned to believe) I'm afraid I'll have to agree with you on this one....

It was the NWO who is responsible for the war, and they consist of those both from the "made up" right and left factions of our goverment, which in reality do not exist.

So yeah, the so-called lefties were also responsible.

There's a whole lot more I want to say on this, but I'll get this posted for now...


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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 05:12 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aw Salome....how sweet...

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salome
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 05:25 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rainbow...cute!

may i suggest a novel you might find enjoyable and informative?

perhaps you've already even read it...

Captains and the Kings
by Taylor Caldwell

(.23 at amazon.com marketplace)

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AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jwhop

Of the people here on this board, your mindset is the closest to that of a terrorist, because you will never give up on the homeland, you will kill everyone you consider a threat to your homeland, and will never think for a second that you're wrong. Can we say then, based on your "logic," that if half of China were for warring with us you'd fight with all your might, but if 100% of China wanted to war with us that you'd just give up (because you no longer have the support of dissenting voices in China)? Is that how terrorists work?

Your friend,
AG

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

"I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do believe we are taking things a bit too far. Somehow we are all polarized (what else is new) but the "absolutes" we are applying are a bit extreme.

Mirandee feels that I am of the mindset that anyone that show dissent against the Military or US is an obvious anti-American or hates the Military. I am sure I may have given that impression.

From Mirandee I get the feeling (or from her communication) that if one does not take the death of a Soldier who died, not in combat, but here, as indicative of how horrible the Army is and why we shouldn't be at war. She may not be trying to get that across.

AG feels that if jwhop senses a threat to his "homeland" he would kill the person and is therefore a more of a terrorist than say, Osama.

Do you see what we are doing?

Then again, if we are passionate about what we believe in we are calling each other "hysterical, spewing hatred, full of venom and vitriol"... yet, one persons hysteria is another person's passion.

Then we pop up only giving kudos to the people we like (and in some cases wanting to start more problems even after things are said and done - people like that are worse than those who confront each other and even call names. People like that, ones that dredge it up with little comments like "I would have exploded a long time ago" are like those little snively roaches on Harry Potter that slink out from under rocks hoping to see the battle that they know they could never win should they try to participate.

IN any case, ALL of us are guilty of being passionate, bouts of unreason, appearing hysterical to some, unbending in constitition, narrowminded, under mind control, etc....

What is exactly hitting below the belt? Goading someone into an argument then getting upset when the person fights back?

Insinuating yourself into an argument hoping you can fire it up again with inflammatory remarks?

Posting articles from one website over another because it suits our agenda / beliefs.

Oh yes, and Mirandee, I do have half a brain, but I figure if someone is going to post an article that is carried by most liberal publications that are known to be anti-military / war, why not post an article or story of propaganda from stories submitted by people in the Military?

Sometimes I am disappointed in our actions - ALL OF OUR ACTIONS. We see definite lines being drawn in the sand and massive personality conflicts. WE see people waiting for the person they hate to either post something that others won't like, get into a disagreement or even just post so that THEY can then come out and bash them repeatedly.

jwhop could say black and AG would scream its white!!!! Yet, they both have a point since it is most likely gray.

It's okay for us to disgree. God how damn awful if we all agreed on our politics in this Country. Without dissention we only see one point and after awhile we turn into mindless sheep - and yes, I am aware some of you are sitting there reading this shaking your heads saying "Oh yes Pidaua, you are the perfect example of a sheep - believing in all that conservative stuff" LOL....

Well, that is my two cents. The debate is necessary as long as we can learn something from it. Mirandee, I have a ton of respect for you, I always have- we don't agree on politics and in real life, had we been in the Senate I could see us battling into the wee hours.. Then we'd probably go grab a coffee or beer and BS about Astro

Why don't I bash on jwhop for posting his articles? Because 99% of the time they are also backed up with facts and they are published on other sites / papers.

~Pidaua

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 06:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not likely to take anything a half-baked leftist says seriously acoustic. Especially a leftist like you who thinks terrorist thugs deliberately killing unarmed civilians are "ballsey".

The left needs to take responsibility for their actions...all their actions and those actions amount to treason against the United States, not dissent.

Attempting to recreate the glory days of their treason during Vietnam by these enemies of the United States earns them nothing but contempt.

The idiot traitors in the so called antiwar movement also need to take responsibility for the additional casualties...both Iraqi and coalition they are causing by giving terrorists the hope to fight on.

The Wall Street Journal (August 3, 1995) published an interview with Bui Tin who served on the General Staff of the North Vietnam Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. During the interview Mr. Tin was asked if the American antiwar movement was important to Hanoi's victory. Mr. Tin responded "It was essential to our strategy" referring to the war being fought on two fronts, the Vietnam battlefield and back home in America through the antiwar movement on college campuses and in the city streets. He further stated the North Vietnamese leadership listened to the American evening news broadcasts "to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement."

Visits to Hanoi made by persons such as Jane Fonda, former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and various church ministers "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses." Mr. Tin surmised that "America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win." Mr. Tin further advised that General Vo Nguyen Giap (Commanding General of the North Vietnam Army) said the 1968 Tet Offensive was a defeat.

The military defeat of North Vietnam after the Tet Offensive of 1968 became a political victory for North Vietnam because of anti-war demonstrations and the sensationalism of the news media. The North Vietnamese interpreted the U.S. reaction to these events as the weakening of America's resolve to win the war. The North Vietnamese believed that victory could be theirs, if they stayed their course.

From 1969 until the end of the war, over 20,000 American soldiers lost their lives in a war that the United States did not have the resolve to win. The sensationalism by the American news media and the anti-war protests following the 1968 Tet Offensive gave hope to Communist North Vietnam, strengthening their belief that their will to succeed was greater than ours. Instead of seeking a successful resolution at the Paris Peace Conference following the disastrous defeat of the 1968 Tet Offensive, they employed delay tactics as another tool to inflame U.S. politics. This delaying tactic spurned further anti-war demonstrations. Those who sensationalized their reporting of the war and those who supported anti-war demonstrations are guilty of giving our enemy hope. Because of their actions, they must share partial responsibility for those [i]20,000 + Americans deaths.

We won the war on the battlefield but lost it back home on the college campuses and in the city streets.

must realize that there are agents* operating in this Country attempting to undermine our Country and it's leadership through our democratic principles in an effort to achieve a foreign country's goal. A prime example of such a person during the Vietnam War was Jane Fonda, an admitted Socialist, who blatantly supported North Vietnam. * Agent - Any person who works to obtain the goals of another nation either for money or for their own political beliefs.

A valuable lesson was taught by North Vietnam to other nations on how the United States may be defeated by fighting a two front war - the battlefield and the American home front. We must be aware of this vulnerability.[/b]
http://www.vietnamwar.com/janefonda.htm

Featured prominently on a wall in the North Vietnamese war museum were pictures of John Traitor Kerry and Jane Traitor Fonda...in recognition of the help they provided the Communists in the Vietnam War.

Too bad you and other leftists, including leftists in the US Congress and the leftist press won't get the honor of having their pictures on the terrorists wall of fame because there isn't going to be a terrorist victory.

As I've said before, save your bullsh!t for the tourists.

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Rainbow~
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 06:39 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Salome....

What a coincidence.....

I was just thinking of getting Captains and the Kings

...as well as Bright Flows the River also by Taylor Caldwell (as recommended by Greg)

I was wondering....are you "Pegasus?" (if you are then I think I know your real name but won't print it)

I will get that book...thanks for the recommendation.

Love,
Rainbow

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Petron
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 06:40 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i only saw 1 person get hysterically upset here.....

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Petron
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 06:42 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry2.asp

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Christ taught this law in a different way, by saying "Turn the other cheek" and "Judge ye Not".


The above quotes only demonstrate a portion of the text. Turn the other cheek does not mean being a door mat for others to walk on. There is a time to stand up for oneself and a time to defend another. I addressed this very verse in Christian Ethics in College. So many people are wrongly under the assumption that being a Christian means being a pacifist and not fighting for what one believes in or feels is necessary to fight for.
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/sept11/war.html


What about turning the other cheek?
What, now, are we to make of Jesus' radical commands in Matthew 5:39-41? "Do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two." How does this fit with what we have seen above?

First, we need to clarify what the problem is not. The problem is not that Jesus appears to be telling us to lie down and let evil overtake us. That is clearly not what he is saying. Instead, he is telling us what it looks like "not [to] be overcome by evil, but [to] overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21). We have all seen the wisdom of Jesus' words here in our everyday lives. Much of the time, the most effective way to overcome evil is by not resisting. If someone says a mean word, it is far more effective to respond with kindness than with another mean word in return. If someone tries wrongly to cut you off on the freeway, it is usually best just to let them do it. If we would learn these principles, our lives would be much more peaceful and, ironically, we would be vindicated more often.

So the problem is not that it looks as though Jesus is telling us to let evil steam-roll over us. The problem is that it looks like Jesus is telling us that the only way we should ever seek to overcome evil is by letting it go and responding with kindness. It looks as though he leaves no place for using force in resisting evil.

Part of the answer to this difficulty lies in understanding the hyperbolic nature of much of the Sermon on the Mount. I don't think that Jesus is telling us never to respond to evil with force (such as in self-defense) or always to literally turn the other cheek when we are slapped any more than his command later in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 6:6 means that we should only pray when we are completely alone or his command in 5:29 means that some should literally gouge out their eyes. Jesus himself drove the thieves away from the temple with a whip (John 2:15) and Paul at times insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen (Acts 25:11; cf. also the interesting instance of 16:35-40). Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate what our primary disposition and attitude should be, not to say that we should literally give in to every attempt to do evil against us. That is part of the answer.

The main part of the answer, however, lies in remembering that Jesus is speaking primarily to individuals. He is not mainly addressing governments here, but is primarily speaking at the personal level. This text, then, shows that an individual's primary response to evil should be to "turn the other cheek," while the other texts we have seen (e.g., Romans 13:3-4) show that government's God-given responsibility is to punish those who commit civil crimes (murder, terrorism, acts of war, etc.). While it is sometimes appropriate even for individuals to use self-defense, it is never appropriate for individuals to seek to punish others. But it is right, however, for governments both to take measures of self-defense and to execute retribution.

There are, in other words, various "spheres" of life. God has willed that some spheres include responsibilities that are not necessarily included in other spheres. Personally, it would be wrong for us to execute retribution on people who harm us. But passages like Romans 13:3-4 and John 18:36 show that Jesus is not denying governments the right to execute retribution on evildoers. Therefore, when a Christian is under the authority of the government and authorized to fight in a just war on the nation's behalf, it is appropriate for him to fight. For he is not fighting as a private individual, but as a representative of the government to which God has given the power of the sword.

In doing so, a Christian soldier should strive to love one's opponents in war as people, remembering that he opposes them as agents of the opposing government/system, not as private individuals. When at war, we need to look at people in the opposing army/terrorist group at two levels--the private, and governmental/public. Because of the private level, the soldier should pray for and love the opposing soldiers. And because of the public level, the soldier fights against them--not as private individuals, but as public representatives of the system and evil that is being opposed. That distinction, I am sure, would be hard to maintain in battle. Neither would it remove the pain and difficulty of being involved in fighting against other human beings. But it is perhaps a faint reflection of how the personal and governmental spheres overlap and involve one another while still remaining distinct.

_________

Again, taking one script from the Bible and not taking into consideration others is pretty small minded and using words to further ones own agenda:

TO JUDGE
OR NOT TO JUDGE:
THE RIGHTS AND WRONGS OF BIBLICAL DISCERNMENT

by G. Richard Fisher

It seems clear, since Jesus Himself said, “Judge not,” (Matthew 7:1), that we cannot “judge.” At first glance it appears that Jesus not only forbids judging others, but that He catches Himself in a glaring contradiction.

Verse 1 seems obvious, “Judge not,” yet in verses 6, 15-16, we are to judge “swine,” “dogs,” and the “fruit” of false apostles. How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? Do we judge or not?

Churches have split along lines of those who wish to make judgments and those who say we cannot. One side accuses the other of being legalistic and loveless while the other side is called liberal and spineless.

Rooting out the truth on this subject is essential and a thorough search will reveal that there are different kinds of judgment taught in Scripture. One form we are commanded to do; the other we are forbidden to do. Both sides could be right and wrong depending on what they are talking about. One could not read Matthew 18:16-18 seriously and conclude that we never judge anything. In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul takes the people of God to task for not judging the right things the right way.

One of the biggest issues in the Church is how we arrive at truth. We have churches that think frenzied laughter is a way to worship God, while other churches conduct services that sound like a barnyard. Our land is dotted with Word-Faith proponents that see God as the great vending machine in the sky. All of the groups in this confusing mix say they are preaching the truth and being led by the Spirit.

It is also obvious that some arrive at truth in the same fashion as the poem, “Why Are Fire Engines Red?”

They have four wheels and eight men
four plus eight is twelve
twelve inches make a ruler
a ruler is Queen Elizabeth
Queen Elizabeth sails the seven seas
the seven seas have fish
the fish have fins
The Finns hate the Russians
the Russians are red
Fire engines are always rushin’
So they’re red.

Some groups handle the Bible in much the same way.

Let’s consider four major points to help us unravel the question: When to judge and when not to judge?

THE LACK OF DISCERNMENT

Discernment is largely missing from the Church, partly for the following reasons:

A. We have become man-centered and experience-driven. Some think Christianity has to emulate Disney World to capture and hold larger audiences. Entertainment becomes more man-centered than God-centered. Postmodernism and the death of reason permeate not only secular culture but many of our churches.

B. We have lost the knowledge of proper hermeneutics. Televangelists make up their own subjective meanings of Scripture as they go along saying only that they have “revelation knowledge” or “God told them.” In that way they hope to put themselves beyond scrutiny or evaluation.

C. The Church largely accepts the philosophy that truth is relative. Books are published today that try to stem the tide and argue for moral absolutes. Fifty years ago that would not have been necessary.

Jay Adams in almost prophetic fashion sounded an alarm 10 years ago that few listened to. In his book, A Call to Discernment, he noted the departure from antithetical thinking. For thousands of years, both with the Hebrew prophets and the Christian Church people believed that there was right and wrong, black and white.

Adams observes:

“According to continuum thinking, the mode of thinking taught outside the church (and largely within), every idea is a shade of gray. There is no right and wrong or true and false, but only shades of right and wrong or true and false spread along a continuum. The poles of this continuum are extended so far out toward the wings that for all practical purposes they are unattainable and therefore worthless. Nothing, then, is wholly right or wrong. All is relative; most of it is subjective.”

Continuing he says:

“That is one reason why biblical preaching, with its sharp antithesis, rubs many people the wrong way: It is hard for modern minds to accept. For a long time now educational institutions, newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, etc. have inculcated continuum thinking. Antithetical thinking is dismissed as fanatical or worse. Consequently, when Christians (all of whom have been affected by this environment) hear antithetical views expressed, they sound discordant. And indeed they are! Because anything goes, discernment is not placed at a premium” (pg. 30).

Adams points out that the clean-unclean distinctions in the Old Testament were given by God to create a totally antithetical view of life.

The Daily Bread devotional for Nov. 13, 1995, notes that false teachers worm their way in by zeroing in on our emotions:

“A false teacher knows what appeals to our desires (2 Pet. 2). He doesn’t wear a lapel pin to warn of his lies, but he comes disguised as a representative of the truth. He claims he will enrich lives, but those who follow him learn at a high cost that they have been deceived.”

The lack of discernment in the Church today is costing dearly. The Church is like a tree with every kind of bird (clean, unclean, wild, mild) nesting in it.

THE LIBERTY OF DISCERNMENT

Judge — don’t judge — what do we do? Matthew 7:15 is clear that we can judge the message and fruit of false apostles. However, Jesus is saying in Matthew 7:1 that we should be careful in nitpicking and judging people’s motives or eternal destiny. Ultimately only God is the judge of those things. We can, after all, be too hard on people in minor matters.

The mystery clears up when we realize that the word “judge” can be used in different ways in different contexts. Understanding the context is the key to interpreting what kind of judging we are speaking about.

Ralph Walter in his small book, Tortured Texts, notes the differences:

“Consider first the Greek word Krino, translated judge in our text. If you look at a concordance of the King James Version, you will find the word has been translated: conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, ordain, think and then judge 87 times. Other Greek scholars say that Krino means to call in question, conclude, decree, esteem, determine, think and sentence. From all of this I think it would be safe to say that the word our Lord used means to condemn or to pass judgment upon someone maliciously; while the context shows that we have the responsibility to properly evaluate a thing or an act” (pp. 28-30).

An illustration might be a house in poor maintenance. We can see the paint peeling and the broken windows but would we condemn the owner as lazy? Suppose that the owner was an invalid or just too poor to have it fixed? We must be careful about judging without facts or beyond the obvious. Such judgments are condemnations and these are what Jesus condemned in Matthew 7:1. The Pharisees were notorious for judging based on silly rules and traditions and not the Scriptures.

Peter, Paul and John did a lot of judging the right way. Every second epistle is a judgment on apostasy. In 2 Timothy 4:10, Paul judges and warns about a man named Demas. In the same epistle (2:17) he warns of the heresies of two others by name. Paul did a lot of judging and evaluating when it came to false teachers. We are mandated to judge false doctrine.

Jesus in John 7:24 says: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” Jesus is saying “judge without maliciousness and by all means have the facts.” To find a balance between legalism and mysticism we must judge righteous judgment.

First Corinthians 6:3-5 demands that we judge certain matters. We can judge the overt and gross sins mentioned later in verse 9. However our judgment must always be tempered with a desire to restore, not punish. The goal is restoration.

On a larger note, we can judge qualifications for ministry. We are given in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 a number of qualifications for eldership. Qualifications are external and we can judge certain externals. Is an elder hospitable, a good teacher, the husband of one wife and so on? Negatively, is he argumentative, or does he have a bad reputation or is he easily angered? These things are easy to see and evaluate.

We can judge qualifications, however we cannot judge qualities. Qualities are internal motivations known only by God Himself.

In John 21:16-17, Jesus said, “Peter, feed my sheep.” The feeding of sheep has to do with external qualifications. We can evaluate a man’s sermons, appraise if he has studied and researched. Lack of preparation will become obvious in time. Poor doctrine or overtly false doctrine is obvious.

But Jesus also said in John 21:15-17, “Peter, do you love me?” This has to do with qualities and internal motivation. Does a man feed the sheep for power? For prestige? For money? Only God knows the motivation. Or is he doing it out of love for Christ? Again, only God knows. If the person is living an ostentatious and lavish lifestyle, those externals all say something and may be an obvious outworking of the inner motivation.

The book of Titus deals with external qualifications for ministry while 1 Timothy 4:16 tells the pastor to judge himself, to take heed to himself, that is, be aware of his inner motivation, his inner qualities.

It does help us to see and understand the difference between the unseen inner qualities and motivations and the external qualifications which can be judged.

Krino, as pointed out by Campbell Morgan, changes according to the context. Sometimes you judge, sometimes you do not. We must not be censorious but we cannot give up our right to a careful discrimination when that is required. As Morgan puts it: “The first five verses forbid censoriousness; and the sixth verse insists upon a careful discrimination” (The Gospel According to Matthew, pg. 71).

So it is always right to judge false teachers and false teaching using the Word of God as the standard. Nitpicking is one thing. Removing rotten fruit is another. We must be discerning in our discernment and always proceed on the basis of truth and facts leaving the unknown areas of motivation to God.

THE LABOR OF DISCERNMENT

It seems that people have forgotten the word “discernment” and forgotten that encouragements to do the same are found in the Bible (see Young’s Analytical Concordance to The Bible, pg. 257). There are two main Greek words translated as “discernment.” One is anakrino, meaning to examine or judge closely; the other diakrino, to separate out, to investigate, to examine.

This is work. We must put in the work of discernment. We must study to show ourselves approved workmen (2 Timothy 3:16).

D.A. Carson rightly observes:

“We will not go far astray if we approach the Bible with a humble mind and then resolve to focus on central truths. Gradually we will build up our exegetical skills by evenhanded study and a reverent prayerful determination to become like the workman ‘who correctly handles the word of truth’” (Exegetical Fallacies, pg. 144).

We must know the rules. We must dust off the hermeneutics textbooks. We must insist on one of the basic rules and that is the rule of context.

The following quotes from Edwin Hartill’s Principles of Biblical Hermeneutics show us the extreme importance of the context rule:

“Torrey — ‘Too much importance cannot be laid upon a close study of the context.’”

“Todd — ‘Consideration of the context in examining any verse or passage is of utmost importance. Failure to do this is one of the causes of misinterpretation of scripture.’”

“Moyer — ‘Too many preachers prepare a message and then hunt a text to fit it. That is not a text, it is a pretext.’”

“Lockhart — ‘The context is the key to the meaning.’” (pg. 80).

Hartill himself says:

“The Bible can be made to prove anything, but NOT when studied in the light of the context” (ibid., pg. 79).

In his classic, Biblical Hermeneutics, M.S. Terry insists:

“Many a passage of Scripture will not be understood at all without the help afforded by the context; for many a sentence derives all its point and force from the connexion [sic] in which it stands” (pg. 219).

Benny Hinn can stand up in front of a national audience via television and tell them that the Egyptians were not drowned in the Red Sea but rather were crushed by falling ice (Praise The Lord Show 7/14/94). Flying by the seat of his pants he ignores the context of Exodus 14 that talks of the waters coming back over the Egyptians (verse 26) and the waters covering the chariots (verse 28). His followers “ooh” and “aah” over this “new truth.”

By ripping verses out of context, the Word-Faith teachers have created a “Daddy Warbucks” God who is false. All cults trick their followers by wresting verses from their context. In doing so, they twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

Another rule is Contextual Proximity, which broadens the context rule. Thomas Schmidt writes:

“The further distant from the immediate context we travel in search of meaning, the more variables enter in and the more complicated the process becomes. For example, an Old Testament book might illuminate Paul’s meaning, even though it is written in another language and hundreds of years earlier, because we can be confident that Paul knew it and considered it authoritative. On the other hand, a moral philosopher writing in Greek near the time of Paul might use similar words in entirely different ways” (Straight and Narrow, pg. 70).

It is also important that we try to understand the biblical world. Background studies in Edershiems’ works are helpful in this. How were the words being used and understood by the people in their world and in their culture?

In Dr. Edwin W. Rice’s book, Orientalisms in Bible Lands he lays out the disparities in Eastern and Western mind sets:

“For Western people reverse, upset, and completely turn around the customs and habits of Oriental nations. How different must be the thought and expression of the East, growing necessarily out of these opposite ways of life and manners. ... No study of the Bible, therefore, can be satisfactory that does not include some knowledge of life and thought in the East” (pp. 11-12).

A good exegesis will interpret the text and draw out the meaning. Knowing the rules aids us in being good exegetes.

Those that handle the Word of God need to know something about metaphors and similes. They need to be acquainted with Hebrew poetry and parallelisms. Good hermeneutics may be hard work but is an absolute must for anyone who wants to handle the Scriptures with integrity.

LIVING IN DISCERNMENT

Paul spoke of having transformed minds (Romans 12:1). We can best read and understand Scripture when our minds are in the right place and we are in tune with the Savior. Living in discernment is more than just knowing the rules as important as that is. However without the last two considerations we can become, arrogant, and harsh, with a know-it-all attitude. Peter tells us (1 Peter 3:15) that we are to defend our faith with meekness and fear. This indicates a humble attitude in reliance on God. Earlier in that same verse Peter says, “Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts.” Two things make that possible:

A. Love the Savior. Walk with Christ, commune often with Christ, obey Him, keep your eyes on Him (Hebrews 12:1-2). Fellowship with the author of the Book is vital.

B. Live with the end in view. Holding eternity as a present reality gives us God’s perspective of life and the Scriptures.

Proper discernment is our privilege and right. The work is worth the effort and the reward will be not only the favor and blessing of God but our ability to truly enrich the lives of others.


____________________

I especially love this line from the article above:

“A false teacher knows what appeals to our desires (2 Pet. 2). He doesn’t wear a lapel pin to warn of his lies, but he comes disguised as a representative of the truth. He claims he will enrich lives, but those who follow him learn at a high cost that they have been deceived.”

How appropriate in some cases......

So, do we turn the other cheek and judge not or do we need discernment to know when it is time to battle, time to walk away or time to put another in their place?

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lessons of Antiwar Movements (Cindy Sheehan)

If there was any lesson to be learned from the Vietnam War is was that we have to fight the enemies of America not only on the battlefield thousands of miles away in some cases but also the enemies here at home. What does the typical enemy look like here at home. Well in most cases just like you and I and they come from all walks of life and social status. The democrats who continually suggests to the American people that the war in Iraq is unwinnable, is the enemy, he sees a victory in Iraq for America as a victory for George Bush and a defeat for the Democratic Party, these people are traitors of the worse kind because in their own delusional mind they are actually patriots trying to save America from the evil Republicans. George Washington said "Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism" in his Farewelll Address in 1796. People like Cindy Sheehan have made themselves the enemy because they have crossed the line to the point where they are now giving aid and comfort to the worst band of cutthroats known to man. Terrorists who killed over three thousand Americans in the 9/11 attacks and terrorists who behead innocent people who's only crime was to go to Iraq and try and help the people there. Anyone who doubts Cindy Sheehan has become a danger to America should read the book by the North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap. He states in an interview after the war that "We were not strong enough to drive out a half million American troops but that was not our aim. Our intention was to break the will of the American Government to continue the war." General Vo Nguyen Giap was the Supreme Commander of the North Vietnamese forces during the Vietnam war and was quoted by Stanley Karnow, author of "Vietnam: A History." in the 8-page interview "Giap credits faltering will of the U.S. and anti-war movement with Vietnam's Victory."[b]

Interviewed after the war for the Time/Life documentary series "The Ten Thousand Day war," [b]General Giap gave credit for the Communist victory to the U.S. Media and antiwar protestors like Jane Fonda and John Kerry. Giap said that the North Vietnamese used the media by feeding them propaganda that would then be found in American news reports and those of other nations around the world. These stories were designed to lift the spirits of the North Vietnamese and tore at the morale of U.S. soldiers. The war protestors contributed to this media frenzy by continually giving credence to the Communists lies. During the interview he spent a moment to reflect and acknowledge the leaders of the antiwar movement in America who helped him to secure the victory over South Viet Nam and the U.S. He said simply, "I would like to thank them." He drew attention to the overarching impact of the American antiwar organizations, which he thanked for backing the Communist side: "During the Vietnam War." When asked if the American antiwar movement was that important to the Communist victory, he answered: "It was essential to our strategy.
Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Vistits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conferece that she was ashamed of American actions in the war an that she would struggle along with us." America lost because of its democracy, through dissent and protest it lost the abilitiy to mobilize a will to win." Does any of this sound familar? Replace Jane Fonda with Cindy Sheehan and John Murtha and sleazy Democrats like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry and you have the makings of another American defeat. Only this time thousands if not millions of American lives are at stake. Say what you will of the North Vietnamese they never once attacked this country here at home. The same cannot be said of the current threat we face from muslim extremists bent on killing as many Americans as they can, wherever they are. Thousands of Americas brightest and finest soldiers died in World War I and II and not one mother that I know of turned her back on America and decided to support those countries we were at war with. Whether she likes it or not, whether she knows it or not, she has joined with the terrorists and is now giving them aid and comfort by trying to convince other americans to stop supporting the war in Iraq. This is a fight we absolutely must win and not be seen as being forced to withdraw by a bunch of terrorist thugs. Make no mistake these people are not followers of religion that almost any sane and rational person would find acceptable. They have no problem killing fellow muslims who happen to get in their way, and this would not be allowed if they were truely following the muslim faith. They may be crazy rabid killers, criminals and mental defectives but the leaders are not stupid and as the recent Bin Laden audio tapes and the video from Al Zwahari show they are watching the news closely and are trying to manipulate American public opinion. Don't let Cindy Sheehan and Osama keep us from doing what has to be done to eliminate this threat from the world. God Bless our soldiers who have to bear the brunt of the war on terror but we may be called upon here at home for some sacrifices, and we must realize we have no other options. The fact that Osama offered a truce only shows that we are winning victories and these people will be caught eventually and pay for their acts of cruelty and terror. We have to remember 9/11 and never forget we didn't ask for this war but we are the greatest country on earth and I would rather be here then hiding in a cave in Afghanistan.

I was in Vietnam on my birthday January 31, 1968 during the Tet offensive every military installation in the South along with the US Embassy was attacked. Even though a previously agreed truce for the Tet Festivities was broken in order to surprise and overwhelm the South it ended with staggering losses by the Communist North and was a huge military defeat which would take over two years to recover from. Despite the losses however the North Vietnamese was able to gain a political victory when on February 27, 1968, Walter Cronkite, the "most trusted man in America, " called the Tet offensive a defeat not for the North Vietnamese but for the Americans. And then he declared the war unwinnable, much like the democrats are doing today. Although the Communists had faced an overwhelming military defeat, for the next few years antiwar protestors and misleading media reports would help the enemy turn their defeat into a political victory. The defeatist mood, generated by antiwar activists like John Kerry, broke man Americans will and support for the war and directly affected the American military response. For example instead of capitalizing on what was actually a military success, and quickly bringing the North Vietnamese to their knees and the war to an end, President Johnson communicated privately that after Cronkite's remarks he felt constrained and pressured to change course. The lesson here is that at that time, there were fewer than 10,000 U.S. casualties, the Vietnam War was about to end, as the NVA was prepared to accept their defeat. Then, they heard Walter Cronkite (former CBS News anchor and correspondent) on TV proclaiming the success of the '68 Tet offensive by the communist NVA. According to General Giap, distorted reports about the US Embassy being overrun, when in fact they never gained access to the embassy and reports of rioting and protests on the streets of America changed their plans from a negotiated surrender and decided instead, that they only needed to perservere for one more hour, one more day, month, and eventually the protestors in America would help them achieve a victory they knew they could not win on the battlefield. Don't you think the terrorist have also learned the lesson of manipulating American public opinion? Do not give them aid and comfort by joining the Cindy Sheehan's and the John Kerry's of this country and provide the basis of a political victory that the terrorists have no hope of winning militarily on the battlefields. The terrorists can cause great destruction and loss of life but unlike the what the Democrats have been leading you to believe, they can be defeated but we have to be willing to stay in the fight for the long haul, however long that is. We are winning the war in Iraq, day by day, hour by hour, lets not get bogged down in whether we should be there or not, we are there and we have to win. As someone who served in Vietnam I want peace as much and probably more than the all the Cindy Sheehan's out there but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. And doing photo ops with Socialist and Communist Dictators is certainly the wrong way and does a disservice to the memory of her son.
http://spaces.msn.com/sheehanunitedstates/blog/cns!D8FD0BE56578AADD!112.entry?

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pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 06:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh petron... that is your opinion and it is 100% biased as would be a few others that would say the same thing about me because of our difference.

Your opinion and theirs, really doesn't mean squat in the long run because you wouldn't commend me if you thought I was right, but you can't wait to find fault in any of my posts LOL...


Again, proving my point exactly about the narrowmindedness that prevails with certain people.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now, I'm not prepared to hear any more bullsh!t that the left is not both prolonging the war in Iraq AND giving the terrorists the will and hope to fight on thinking they will win in the halls of Congress what they cannot win on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Neither can it be denied that prolonging the war...[because the terrorists think they might win in spite of getting their sorry @sses kicked in every engagement with US military forces]...is causing more US and Iraqi casualties and deaths.

These casualties and deaths need to be laid directly on the doorstep of the leftists, in the press, in the Congress and in leftist protest groups.

These terrorists are not fighting for their country. These terrorists are fighting against the duly constituted and elected governments of Iraq and Afghanistan. They are terrorists because they deliberately target civilians, including women and children.

Tuesday, Feb. 10, 2004 10:25 p.m. EST
Gen. Giap: Kerry's Group Helped Hanoi Defeat U.S.

The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry with helping him achieve victory.

In his 1985 memoir about the war, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S. - according to Fox News Channel war historian Oliver North.

That's why, he predicted on Tuesday, the Vietnam War issue "is going to blow up in Kerry's face."

"People are going to remember Gen. Giap saying if it weren't for these guys [Kerry's group], we would have lost," North told radio host Sean Hannity.

"The Vietnam Veterans Against the War encouraged people to desert, encouraged people to mutiny - some used what they wrote to justify fragging officers," noted the former Marine lieutenant colonel, who earned two purple hearts in Vietnam.

"John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands," North said.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/10/222651.shtml

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Petron
unregistered
posted May 18, 2006 07:07 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
according to Fox News Channel war historian Oliver North.

hahahaha.....good one.....quoting an actual convicted criminal, convicted of lying to congress...

quote:
As a result of one of his recent controversial felony convictions, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North has been stripped of his Marine Corps pension.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/EM249.cfm



the u.s. authority figure most responsible for saddam hussein and both iraq wars is none other than bush sr......who supported saddams aggression , chemical weapons, and who failed to clean up his own mess in '91

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juniperb
Moderator

Posts: 856
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 18, 2006 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
pidaua, as time permits, I will enjoy reading your post. Thank you for sharing!


------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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