posted November 28, 2006 08:58 PM            

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Religion does bring order and discipline...and does the opposite of what alot of people here think it does (ie destroys and hurt people).

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I'd like to say in the most respectful way that you're not the only one with experience in religion, DayDreamer... I was raised in an orthodox jewish household, and I can say from experience that religion can and does destroy people.

In my experience, religion itself is almost never the source of anything good. The good comes from the good *people* who practice the religion... who would be good people regardless of whether they worshiped that particular god or not.

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Sure there are stupid people that think that they must contol people to propagate a religion. And using religion to exploit people is wrong.

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Without people using force to propagate their religion, where would Christianity or Islam be today?

Maybe you're right, and the exploitation of religion is what has led to its current state. But that exploitation is now so inextricably intertwined with the religion itself that it is really not possible to just overlook it.

posted November 28, 2006 09:59 PM              

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I'd like to say in the most respectful way that you're not the only one with experience in religion, DayDreamer... I was raised in an orthodox jewish household, and I can say from experience that religion can and does destroy people.

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Obviously Im speaking from my own experiences. If other people can make generalization, I hope Im entitled to as well.

Oh..And you have your beliefs and I have mine.

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In my experience, religion itself is almost never the source of anything good. The good comes from the good *people* who practice the religion... who would be good people regardless of whether they worshiped that particular god or not.

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How does anyone know that one person would be good regardless of if they followed a particular religion, or some ideas/laws from religion or not (dont most of the laws here originate from or are a by-product of the laws of some religion...eg 10 commandments)?

Personally, I believe the rules and laws of my religion are good and following them make me a better person than I would be without it. Ive heard experienes from other people I know, including people who werent exactly good people until they started actually practicing religion.

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Without people using force to propagate their religion, where would Christianity or Islam be today?

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Most Muslims didn't convert by force in the past, so it would still be around. Look at Judaism...why is it still around?

posted November 28, 2006 10:02 PM              

Know for ThySelf. ...

posted November 28, 2006 10:27 PM            

But I do respect your thoughts on the matter. Hope I don't give the impression that I don't.

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How does anyone know that one person would be good regardless of if they followed a particular religion,...

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Does following a particular religion change one's fundamental personality? I'd say not, but I could be wrong. If, on the other hand, someone acts 'good' only because their religion forces them to (i.e., they're afraid of divine retribution), then I'd say that they are in fact NOT good people, but only pretending to be. And I'd say that there is a big difference between the two.

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...(dont most of the laws here originate from or are a by-product of the laws of some religion)?

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"Thou shalt not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc." are pretty universal, and as old as civilized humanity, due to the fact that they are simply necessary for a civilized society to function. I don't think they were invented with the ten commandments.

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Look at Judaism...why is it still around?

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Judaism is a somewhat exclusive religion, not one that proselytizes, but is simply passed down through family lines. But then, it is not nearly so widespread as Christianity or Islam.

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Oh..And you have your beliefs and I have mine.

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posted November 28, 2006 10:49 PM              

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Does following a particular religion change one's fundamental personality? I'd say not, but I could be wrong. If, on the other hand, someone acts 'good' only because their religion forces them to (i.e., they're afraid of divine retribution), then I'd say that they are in fact NOT good people, but only pretending to be. And I'd say that there is a big difference between the two

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I agree...but it prevents some not so good people from doing bad things and saves other people from getting hurt.

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"Thou shalt not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc." are pretty universal, and as old as civilized humanity, due to the fact that they are simply necessary for a civilized society to function. I don't think they were invented with the ten commandments.

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Yep...and there are many universal beliefs within religion too. Im sure they werent invented with the ten commandments either. The point Im trying to make is that religion, regardless of when a religion started, is mostly there to guide people to do good, be better people and help community run smoother.

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I try very hard not to have beliefs. Unless there is a rational, empirical reason to regard something as true or false, then holding a 'belief' about it is a bad idea, in my opinion. 'Belief systems,' removed from rational thought or critical analysis, have caused enormous harm to humanity.

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posted November 28, 2006 10:59 PM              

Religion caused separatism
EGO POWER GREED... .

posted November 28, 2006 11:10 PM            

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I agree...but it prevents some not so good people from doing bad things and saves other people from getting hurt.

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True, I suppose. But is the trade-off worth it? Western religions are generally extremely repressive, to the point of the dehumanization of their adherents. Take the suppression of the sex-instinct, for one, tying sex (and even nudity) to sin, evil, fear of eternal burning damnation, etc... Societies create laws to stop bad people from doing bad things and to save good people from being hurt by them - religion is not the only solution to those problems.

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The point Im trying to make is that religion, regardless of when a religion started, is mostly there to guide people to do good, be better people and help community run smoother.

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Dare I substitute "control them" for the above? And control them through fear, generally. "Where fear is present, wisdom cannot be."

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Still we're limited in that we dont have the empirical evidence for a lot of things...thats where we have to be careful in our beliefs.

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I agree very much.

Have you ever heard of the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever it's called? It's some pseudo-religion some college kid came up with to mock organized religion. It sort of caught on, and now it has a website... with a page for comments from visitors. Some truly scary stuff, if you're interested: http://www.venganza.org/

posted November 28, 2006 11:29 PM              

Im surprised Ive lasted this long on this topic...without feeling like Im starting a ruckus

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True, I suppose. But is the trade-off worth it? Western religions are generally extremely repressive, to the point of the dehumanization of their adherents. Take the suppression of the sex-instinct, for one, tying sex (and even nudity) to sin, evil, fear of eternal burning damnation, etc... Societies create laws to stop bad people from doing bad things and to save good people from being hurt by them - religion is not the only solution to those problems.

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Religion will call it a sin with consequences later...law will slap you a fine or throw you in prison...you're right religion isnt the only solution, but I dont think, at least for me, that the other solutions are as fulfilling for other areas in life and in the grander scheme of things. Oh and I do think (in the grander scheme of things) the religious laws pertaining to sexuality make sense.

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Dare I substitute "control them" for the above? And control them through fear, generally. "Where fear is present, wisdom cannot be."

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Having wisdom does not necessarily mean you have control to do good over bad. And are we assuming that heaven and hell are made up too?...I think it's safer to believe in them, than not to and to later find yourself in ummm...hopefully heaven.

posted November 28, 2006 11:50 PM            

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And are we assuming that heaven and hell are made up too?...I think it's safer to believe in them, than not to and to later find yourself in ummm...hopefully heaven.

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Haha, can't argue with that. It just seems like such a depressing thought, though, to live life with that fear hanging over my head. Hell is such a ridiculous concept... but if there was ever a scare tactic to control the masses with, though, that is it.

And even still, just personally,, I could never worship a god that would create a hell.

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No I havent heard of the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster. I'll check it out...are you a follower?

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No... I think you have to wear a pirate outfit if you want to be. I don't wanna be a pirate!