posted August 14, 2007 04:52 AM              

How many of you here have seen this or heard of this guy? I watched it yesterday and I'd like to know your thoughts.

*Edited to add the following:

What happened to William Rodriguez the morning of 9/11 is a miracle. What happened to his story after-the-fact is a tragedy.

But with miracles and tragedies comes truth. And truth is exactly what Rodriguez brings to the whole mystery surrounding 9/11.

Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.

He not only claims he felt explosions coming from below the first sub-level while working in the basement, he says the walls were cracking around him and he pulled a man to safety by the name of Felipe David, who was severely burned from the basement explosions.

All these events occurred only seconds before and during the jetliner strike above. And through it all, he now asks a simple question everybody should be asking? How could a jetliner hit 90 floors above and burn a man’s arms and face to a crisp in the basement below within seconds of impact?

Rodriguez claims this was impossible and clearly demonstrates a controlled demolition brought down the WTC, saying "Let’s see them (the government) try to wiggle out of this one."

Well, they haven’t wiggled out of it because the government continues to act like Rodriguez doesn’t exist, basically ignoring his statements and the fact he rescued a man burnt and bleeding from the basement explosions.

His eye witness account, ignored by the media and the government, points the finger squarely on an official cover-up at the highest levels since the government contends the WTC fell only from burning jet fuel. And after listening to Rodriguez, it’s easy to see why the Bush administration wants him kept quiet.

Bush wants him quiet because Rodriguez’s account is ‘proof positive’ the WTC was brought down by a controlled demolition, not burning jet fuel. And Bush knows if he’s caught lying about this or caught in a cover-up, it’s just a matter of time before the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

In fact, Rodriguez’s story is so damaging – so damning – it literally blows the lid off the government story, literally exposing the whole 9/11 investigation as a sham and a cover-up of the worst kind.

And it appears the cover-up also extends to the media.

NBC news knew about his story several years ago, even spending a full day at his house taping his comments. But when push came to shove, his story was never aired. Why?

His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn’t speculation or conjecture. It isn’t a story that takes a network out on a journalistic limb. It’s a story that can be backed up, a story that can be verified with hospital records and testimony from many others.

It’s a story about 14 people who felt and heard the same explosion and even saw Rodriguez, moments after the airplane hit, take David to safety, after he was burnt so bad from the basement explosion flesh was hanging from his face and both arms

So why didn’t NBC or any other major news outlets cover the story? They didn’t run it because it shot the government story to hell and back. They didn’t run it because "the powers at be" wouldn’t allow it.

Since 9/11, Rodriguez has stuck to his guns, never wavering from what he said from day one. Left homeless at times, warned to keep quiet and subtly harassed, he nevertheless has continued trying to tell get his message out in the face of a country not willing to listen.

Here is his story:

The Miracle

It’s a miracle Rodriguez, 44, who worked at the WTC for 20 years, is even alive. Usually arriving to work at 8:30am, the morning of 9/11 he reported 30 minutes late. If he’d arrived on time, it would have put him at the top floors just about the same time the jetliner hit the north tower.

"It was a miracle. If I arrived on time, like always, I’d probably be dead. I would have been up at the top floors like every morning," said Rodriguez about the quirk of fate that saved his life.

But since he was late, Rodriguez found himself checking into work in an office on sub-level 1 when the north tower was hit, seemingly out of harms way. However, the sound and concussion of a massive explosion in the sub-levels right below his feet changed that.

"When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking," said Rodriguez, who was huddled together with at least 14 other people in the office.

Rodriguez said Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Co., was one of the people in the room who stands ready to verify his story.

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above," said Rodriguez. "Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion."

But before Rodriguez had time to think, co-worker Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns on his face and arms, screaming for help and yelling "explosion! explosion! explosion!"

David had been in front of a nearby freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries.

"He was burned terribly," said Rodriguez. "The skin was hanging off his hands and arms. His injuries couldn’t have come from the airplane above, but only from a massive explosion below. I don’t care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below.

"I know there were explosives placed below the trade center. I helped a man to safety who is living proof, living proof the government story is a lie and a cover-up.

"I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word."

After Rodriguez escorted David to safety outside the WTC, he returned to lead the others in the basement to safety as well. While there, he also helped two other men trapped and drowning in the basement elevator shaft, another result he says of the explosives placed below the tower.

In fact, after leading these men to safety, he even made another trip back into the north tower, against police orders, in order to rescue people from the top floors.

"I never could make it to the top, but I got up to the 33rd floor after getting some of my equipment and a face mask out of the janitor’s closet," said Rodriguez, adding he heard a series of small explosions going off between the 20th and 30th floors, unrelated to the airplane strike, while making his way through the stairwell to the top floors.

"Also, when I was on the 33rd floor, I heard strange sounds coming form the 34th floor, loud noises like someone moving and thumping heavy equipment and furniture. I knew this floor was empty and stripped due to construction work so I avoided it and continued to make my way up the stairs."

Rodriguez said he finally reached the 39th floor before being turned back by fire fighters and then, reluctantly, started his dissent back down and his own flight to safety while, at the same time, hearing explosions coming from the South Tower.

The Tragedy

The concerted effort by the media and the government to silence Rodriguez is the tragedy behind this American hero’s story. And there is no question, Rodriguez is a "silent hero" for saving so many lives and for having the courage to continue telling his story against tremendous odds.

In an effort to open a fair and honest investigation as to why the WTC collapsed, Rodriguez has been ignored by government officials, the 9/11 Commission and the National Institute of Safety and Technology (NIST).

NIST, an independent investigative group funded by the government, put the finishing touches this week on its 2 year $35 million 9/11 investigation. This week Rodriguez made his final plea to have his story heard while testifying at the final public hearing held in New York.

" I disagree 100%with the government story," said Rodriguez. "I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers.

"Also, The FBI never followed up on my claims or on the other part of my story when I told them before 9/11, I encountered one of the hijackers casing the north tower."

Besides the explosions, Rodriguez also has provided testimony to the 9/11 Commission that he stumbled across one of the supposed 19 Arab hijackers inside the WTC several months before 9/11

"I had just finished cleaning the bathroom and this guy asks me, 'Excuse me, how many public bathrooms are in this area?'" Rodriguez told the 9/11 Commission. "Coming from the school of the 1993 [Trade Center] bombing, I found it very strange. I didn't forget about it"

Rodriguez, claims he saw United Airlines Flight 175 hijacker Mohand Alshehri in June 2001, telling an FBI agent about the incident a month after the attacks. Never hearing back from the bureau, he later learned agents never followed up on the story.

"I'm very certain, I'll give it 90%" that Alshehri was casing the towers before the attacks," said Rodriguez.

Regarding the media’s apathetic approach to his story, Rodriguez said immediately after 9/11 some newspapers picked it up but his words were never taken seriously and quickly forgotten.

"During the 9/11 hearings, NBC brought a crew out to my house and spent a day taping my story but they never did air a word of it," said Rodriguez. "Since then, some reporters and commentators have subtly warned me to keep quiet, told me my life could be in jeopardy and warned me that I really didn’t understand who I was dealing with.

"I have been receiving this type of subtle harassment for years, but I keep telling everybody I can’t be intimidated because I am on a mission. Whenever someone asks why I keep talking or warns me that I could be killed, I just tell them I have nothing to lose.

"I tell them I lost 200 friends and I am their voice now. I tell them I will do everything in my power to find out the truth since I am living on borrowed time since I probably should be dead anyway."

Besides trying to tell his explosive story, Rodriguez has been active raising money for 9/11victims, being involved with charity groups that have raised more than $122 million. He says he has used over $60,000 of his own money, originally earmarked to buy a new house, in order to get at the truth behind 9/11.

Also seeking justice at the highest level, Rodriguez is the lead plaintiff in a federal RICO lawsuit filed against President Bush and others, alleging conspiracy to commit murder and other crimes in the deaths of more than 3,000 at the WTC.

The case, filed last November in a Philadelphia federal district court, recently was moved to New York in a change of venue after a government’s motion to dismiss was overruled, allowing legal discovery to continue.

"Even if the case goes no farther, I feel we have scored a victory by winning this first battle," said Rodriguez. "At least the judge seems willing to listen which is a victory of sorts. However, I sincerely hope we can eventually take the case all the way to trial and reveal the truth to the American people about 9/11."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2005/240605officialstory.htm

posted August 14, 2007 07:16 AM            

There's nothing new about the 9/11 attacks.

19 al-Qaeda terrorists hijacked commercial airliners and flew them into the WTC and Pentagon. End of the story. No matter how many half baked conspiracy theories leftists dream up, none of them will fly because they're just bullshiiit propaganda with no scientific basis.

Just got to love the twits who screech and howl that they're being censored...while they're in the process of telling their story.

One thing that never changes. There will always be a market for bullshiiit. Most of us confine it's use to spreading it on our gardens. We don't swallow it like mothers milk.

posted August 14, 2007 04:40 PM            

This guys conspiracy theory and the conspiracy theories of numerous other have been thoroughly debunked by direct scientific evidence to the contrary.

In one conspiracy theory, Bush, et al, had the WTC brought down with explosives...because jet fuel burns at a lower temperature than steel melts.

Problem...the structural steel in the WTC didn't need to melt for the WTC to fall down. At about 900*F steel loses about 50% of it strength but jet fuel burns at more than 1600*F. The WTC came down because the structural steel used in the building's skeleton defomed, twisted and would no longer support the weight.

Another conspiracy had charges being set off in the basement and lower levels of the WTC starting fires.

Problem, the fuel tanks of the aircraft ruptured on impact, the plane sliced through the elevator shafts and support columns and burning jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts.

Each and every one of these conspiracy theories have been dealt with and they are bunk.

In another conspiracy it wasn't civilian aircraft that hit the WTC at all but CIA controlled look alikes. Yes, Bush was in the basement of the CIA flying those planes by remote control.

Problem:

Where in the hell are those civilian aircraft and where the hell are all those passengers who were confirmed as booked and being on those civilian aircraft?

None of these conspiracy theories can stand the most cursory examination.

What proof do you offer that this guy is not just another conspiracy theory hack?

Hopefully not just because he says so. You don't know if this guy was ever even near the WTC let alone an employee on the scene. You don't know this guy testified before the 911 Commission. They kept pretty good records and his name appears nowhere. Yeah, I know, it's a big conspiracy and his name and testimony was deliberately suppressed...he knew too much.

So tell me, do you think Bush and company would hesitate to kill this guy...if they had already killed more than 2900 people to bring down the WTC?

Oh, and tell me; what was the Bush motive for destroying the WTC and Pentagon? I know, it was a conspiracy to start a war and allow Bush to take over the US...and later...the whole world. Bush, the world dictator.

posted August 17, 2007 05:26 PM              

I do feel he is motivated by the right reasons.

His heart is in the right place.

I am not here to argue or get angry; I appreciate everybody will have their own point of views....if we didn't then the world would be boring!

Hooray for our own point of views!

I am just expressing how passionate I feel about this.

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Ego is no more than this: identification with form, which primarily means thought forms. If evil has any reality - and it has a relative, not absolute, reality - this is also it's definition: complete identification with form - physical forms, thought forms, emotional forms. This results in a total unawareness of my connectedness with the whole, my intrinsic oneness with every "other" as well as with the Source. This forgetfulness is original sin, suffering, delusion. When this delusion of utter separateness underlies and governs whatever I think, say and do, what kind of world do I create? To find the answer to this, observe how humans relate to each other, read a history book, or watch the news on television tonight.

If the structures of the human mind remain unchanged, we will always end up re-creating fundamentally the same world, the same evils, the same dysfunction."

posted August 18, 2007 04:32 AM              

More if you go to Youtube and put in "9/11 big explosion"

------------------
Ego is no more than this: identification with form, which primarily means thought forms. If evil has any reality - and it has a relative, not absolute, reality - this is also it's definition: complete identification with form - physical forms, thought forms, emotional forms. This results in a total unawareness of my connectedness with the whole, my intrinsic oneness with every "other" as well as with the Source. This forgetfulness is original sin, suffering, delusion. When this delusion of utter separateness underlies and governs whatever I think, say and do, what kind of world do I create? To find the answer to this, observe how humans relate to each other, read a history book, or watch the news on television tonight.

If the structures of the human mind remain unchanged, we will always end up re-creating fundamentally the same world, the same evils, the same dysfunction."

posted August 18, 2007 02:57 PM            

So, to believe this BS artist you must also believe demoscats were party to whitewashing the Bush administration and excusing what could only be described as mass murder and treason.

posted August 19, 2007 04:39 AM              

Jwhop, yes....I agree....A mind is a terrible thing to waste.....no sarcasm intended.

posted August 19, 2007 04:43 AM              

quote:

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He turned down millions of dollars doing what? I've watched the video so that self proclaimed BS doesn't fly with me.

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From "The Herald":

posted August 19, 2007 06:54 AM            

If you're ever up for a chat about his works, I'm around. NosiS, too. And I believe 26taurus was going to look into his works, as well. Now I really want to order them for myself as I borrowed them when I read them.

posted August 21, 2007 05:51 AM            

Here are a few links I've dug up. Again, I'm presenting them to try and get a more thorough view of what may be going on, not promoting one side as right or wrong.

This is from a blog site, granted, but if you scroll down you can see the actual indictment.

William Rodriguez no Longer Part of RICO suit

Here's another article from The Conservative Voice - William Rodriguez, a 9-11 Survivor Before anyone turns their noses up at the word "conservative" this article isn't portraying him in a negative light.

posted August 21, 2007 05:57 AM            

911 myths - William Rodriguez

The story...

William Rodriguez says he heard an explosion at the WTC "just seconds before" the plane hit.

quote:

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Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.

He not only claims he felt explosions coming from below the first sub-level while working in the basement, he says the walls were cracking around him and he pulled a man to safety by the name of Felipe David, who was severely burned from the basement explosions. http://www.nogw.com/download/2005_911_controlled.pdf ...

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Our take...

We're not quite sure what the suggestion is here. Why would a bomb in the basement be required to go off as the plane hit? What's the point? It wasn't aimed to demolish the building, presumably. It increased the risk of detection, required more effort in planting and hiding it, careful timing, and yet (if there were bombs elsewhere in the building) would achieve nothing at all.

It might weaken the structure, you're saying? Why? The towers collapsed from the impact point down, not from the base. There’s nothing a bomb 90+ floors below could do to affect that. And remember, the very base of the towers were left standing. This part of the structure is all that remained, which is why a few people survived in the lower stairwells and basement levels. No sign of it being weakened there.

Still, that's another argument. Our first concern with Rodriguez is the way his story has expanded since its first hearing, reported soon after the attacks.

quote:

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William Rodriguez worked on the basement level of the north tower and was in the building when the first plane struck his building.

"We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off." http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/new.york.terror/ ...

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Two rumbles, not explosions. Nothing about the location of either, and no suggestion of bombs. Has this been edited? Certainly the general accusation made is that the US media hasn’t reported Rodriguez accurately:

quote:

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Rodriguez looked forward to his appearance at a closed-door hearing of the 9/11 Commission. "Up to that moment, I was thinking that they were going to do the right thing." He states that he started changing his mind as he saw how the commission did its work, and also when the American media edited out his testimonies about hearing bombs in the buildings, whilst the Spanish media did report it un-edited. http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2006/11/356684.html ...

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quote:

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9/11 National Hero William Rodriguez . The last man out of the North Tower who in the North Tower saved hundreds of lives, but the 9/11 Commission and the Major Media hid his revealing testimony from YOU, the American people! http://www.911keymaster.com ...

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If the Spanish media did include the bomb claims at the time then that would offer Rodriguez some support: we look forward to someone providing a reference that supports this. But in the meantime, we can at least look at what Rodriguez has said elsewhere. For example, the CNN quote above came from a live interview on the afternoon of 9/11, which in full looked like this:

quote:

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AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: William Rodriguez (ph) is a maintenance worker at the Trade Center, I believe. In any case, he's on the phone with us now.

Mr. Rodriguez can you hear me?

WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ, MAINTENANCE WORKER, TRADE CENTER: Yes, I can hear you now.

BROWN: Tell me where you were when -- which of those two buildings were you in?

RODRIGUEZ: I work in building one. The one that got hit the first time.

BROWN: Tell me what happened.

RODRIGUEZ: I was in the basement, which is the support floor for the maintenance company, and we hear like a big rumble. Not like an impact, like a rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way. And all of sudden we hear another rumble, and a guy comes running, running into our office, and all of skin was off his body. All of the skin.

We went crazy, we started screaming, we told him to get out. We took everybody out of the office outside to the loading dock area. Then I went back in, and when I went back in I saw people -- I heard people that were stuck on an the elevator, on a freight elevator because all of the elevators went down. And water was going in, and they were probably getting drowned. And we get a couple of pipes and opened the elevator and we got the people out.

I went back up and saw one of the officers from the Port Authority Police, I been working there for 20 years so I knew him very well. My routine on the World Trade Center is in charge of the staircase, and since there was no elevator service, I have the master keys for all the staircase doors.

So, I went up with the police officer and a group of firemen. As we went up, there was a lot of people coming up, and while we got -- it was very difficult to get up.

BROWN: Mr. Rodriguez, how many time has taken -- has elapsed here in this, as you recount the events? Did it seem like hours, minutes, seconds? RODRIGUEZ: No, it wasn't hours.

BROWN: What did it seem like?

RODRIGUEZ: Well there was a big time, like a gap. There was a gap of time. I won't be able to tell you if it was 15 or 20 minutes.

BROWN: OK.

RODRIGUEZ: But there was a gap of time. We heard, while we were on the 33rd floor, I'm sorry on the 23rd floor, because we stopped there with the fire department because their equipped was very heavy and they were breathing very hard. They took a break because they couldn't continue going up. So they wanted take a break.

And we had a person on a wheelchair that we were going to bring down on a gurney, and a lady that was having problems with a heart attack, and some other guy that was bleeding hard. And we went a couple of floors up. While they were putting the person in the gurney, got up to the 39th floor, and we heard on the radio that the 65th floor collapsed. It collapsed.

BROWN: Mr. Rodriguez, let me stop you there at the 65th floor, and let me add you are a lucky man, it seems like, today. Thank you for joining us. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.24.html ...

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The “editing” claim doesn’t seem to apply here: it’s a live interview, and this is the statement Rodriguez offered. Which still contains nothing specific about timing or the direction the rumbles came from, no use of words like "explosions", not a hint of bombs. Why not?

And this appears to be an accurate transcript, too, according to a CNN clip we’ve seen. Download the 4.5 MB video to check it for yourself.

On the first anniversary of 9/11, Rodriguez was interviewed by CNN again. (He appears in the transcript as “unidentified male”, however as the presenter calls him Rodriguez, he calls himself “Willie”, says he was involved with maintenance and had the master key to the building, so his identity is clear):

quote:

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On the subject of your friends, one of them is with you, a relatively new friend I know, William Rodriguez (ph). If Mr. Rodriguez (ph) is actually close enough, we've got a mike on him, just tell the story of how -- William, tell the story of how the two of you met.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, we knew each other for many years. We work at the -- I work at the building. I personally in charge of all the stairs, of all the maintenance of the stairs in the building. And I knew David for probably 15, 16 years.

And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance. And I came back running into the building. And the only person that I found there was Officer David Lim. And the first thing that he told me was, Willie (ph), do you have the key. Meaning if I had the master key to the building, which I have and I still have. It's over here. This is the key that opened all the doors on the staircase. It's called a T2 (ph) key. And he said let's go.

And we went up, he opened the door on the lobby. We went on the basement, number one. And there when we opened the door, the fire department was there waiting in front of the 50 car elevator, which was already gone, because the airplane, when he came through the building, broke all the cables and practically destroyed the elevator because the elevator went down seven flights of floors. And, he said to the -- to the firemen, follow me, we know the best way to go up and we have the access key. So we started going up the stairs and opening all the doors. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/11/se.48.html ...

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Nothing about two explosions here, and an apparent acceptance that the fireball came down the elevator, not up from a lower level. Is this really all explained by “editing”?

Fast forward to October 21st, 2004, and now Rodriguez’ name is attached to a RICO suit against Bush, Cheney and more than 50 others, alleging (amongst many other things) that the WTC towers and WTC7 were destroyed by controlled demolition. You might assume that, as a supposedly key witness, Rodriguez would mention the explosion that he says preceded the impact. But we found no such references (check for yourself here). There is talk of a basement explosion, but pre-collapse, not pre-impact:

quote:

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106. Jet fuel fires as the effective cause of the Twin Towers’ collapses are discredited also by seismic evidence. The Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York (in Rockland County, roughly 21 miles or 34 km north of the WTC) recorded seismographs on 9-11 that show seismic events at the beginning of the collapse of each of the Twin Towers. There was a 2.1 magnitude earthquake just as the South Tower began its 10-second collapse at 9:59:04, and a 2.3 magnitude earthquake as the North Tower began its collapse at 10:28:31...

107. The obvious difficulty that the seismic recordings present to the believer in the Official Story, however, is that, in addition to having the resources and the skill to pull off the hijackings and the flying of the planes into buildings, for the Official Story to be credible the hijackers had to have, first, obtained explosives sufficient to produce the massive explosions recorded. Then, they would have had to gain access to sub-basement areas of each building, some seven stories below street level. They would have had to know how and at what locations to place the explosives in advance of 9-11, so as to produce the effect of blowing out massive steel columns connected to bedrock. http://www.911forthetruth.com/pdfs/Rodriguezvs.Bush%20.pdf ...

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Why would a suit brought by Rodriguez not relate his personal experience, which surely was the most important piece of evidence he could bring to it? Does that seem plausible to you? And how does the explanation of “editing” his testimony apply here?

One defence made against these criticisms is that Rodriguez account is corroborated by others:

quote:

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His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn’t speculation or conjecture. http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6625 ...

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This would of course be much more interesting if they were available for us to consider. However, it’s not entirely clear what they are corroborating:

quote:

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It’s a story about 14 people who felt and heard the same explosion and even saw Rodriguez, moments after the airplane hit, take David to safety, after he was burnt so bad from the basement explosion flesh was hanging from his face and both arms. http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6625 ...

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Rodriguez story is about hearing two explosions, the first originating from below, the second from above. If other witnesses heard, felt or saw one explosion only then they are definitely not supporting him.

Of course, going back to his original account, we still have a pair of events: rumble one and rumble two. Is there a possible answer for this, other than bombs? Maybe so.

As you'll probably remember from watching the initial impact video, the first plane didn't explode on the outside of the building. It disappeared inside first, the explosion following a fraction of a second later.

Now, how is Rodriguez going to hear the explosion? He's a long way below, but plainly something like this is going to reach him through the air. The speed of sound is 767 miles per hour (http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics4.html) at 20 degrees, which means it'll travel 1,124 feet in a second. That's a reasonable approximation of Rodriguez distance from the impact site, actually, so we'll live with it for now.

Except, to clarify, that's just sound through the air. Sound travels through steel more than 17 times faster, 13,332 mph (http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics4.html), which means the impact sound (and related physical effects as the building flexes) could reach someone 1,124 feet away in under 0.06 of a second.

The 9/11 Commission reported another consequence of the explosion.

quote:

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A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-302.html ...

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This could provide a third source of sound and physical manifestations of an explosion, following immediately after the other two. Others say that the fireball couldn’t have caused such effects that far down, but there is some supporting evidence. Consider this from a worker below Rodriguez:

quote:

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...the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled... http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm ...

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Kerosene? That would be consistent with an explosion caused by jet fuel.

Anyway, put it all together and we have something that looks like this.

The plane hits the building. The first sound and effects of this reaches Rodriguez potentially before the explosion has taken place.

The jet fuel explodes, the sound of the initial impact and this reaching Rodriguez through the air almost a second later.

Then we have the sound of the fireball shooting down elevators close to Rodriguez location. This would presumably occur virtually at the same time as the second, airborne sound, but would also be distinct from that (it would appear to come from somewhere else).

Mixed up in all this is the reaction of the building. Seismic records of the first impact show major movement for over ten seconds (http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/WTC_20010911.html) as the structure flexes from the initial impact. How would that manifest itself in the lower levels? Would workers there realise that any noticeable effects were separate from the other events, or would they tie them together, and think they were caused by (say) the fireball in the elevator?

It's important to note that we don't have the answers here. We don't know exactly how Rodriguez story ties in to the whole, which "rumble" relates to which event. However, it's plain that the first version of his story is quite different to the second. And as you see in the first quote, it’s expanding with details that he can’t possibly know, like explosions occurring “before” the airliner hit. He didn’t see the impact, that’s an after-the-fact interpretation. If this were a court of law then that kind of comment would be taken out, and we’d consider only what he experienced himself.

We're also not convinced that Rodriguez could reliably tell whether an explosion occurred above, or beneath him, especially if he's talking about the elevator fireball. And as the initial flex of the building, and impact sound, would have arrived through steel around a second before sound carried through the air. Perhaps there are other explanations here than "bombs in the basement".

posted August 23, 2007 05:35 PM              

quote:

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Yep, suddenly this guy remembers explosives for the first time...after he joins a lawsuit.

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Sorry, but I don't think you have investigated the story, jwhop- skimmed the surface of it perhaps?

I dunno.....it doesn't matter.....people can investigate it if they wish; if they don't wish then they don't have to.

posted August 26, 2007 02:04 PM            

Because that sounds like a, um, pretty weak difference to discredit this guy's testimony on.

quote:

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Problem...the structural steel in the WTC didn't need to melt for the WTC to fall down. At about 900*F steel loses about 50% of it strength but jet fuel burns at more than 1600*F.

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How funny, then, that it did melt! Pools of molten steel at temperatures of over 2,000 degrees were found beneath the debris weeks later.

Note that the melting point of steel is about 2,800 degrees. Much higher than jet-fuel burns, obviously.

EDIT: Sources:

“"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison

Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."”
http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm

“As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was

still running.” Volume VI- Issue II, page 3

- SEAUNEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah

Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still

molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the

debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.

- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3731/is_200112/ai_n9015802

If jet fuel was the combustible that brought the towers down, I'd like to hear a defender of the official story offer an explanation for the molten steel.

quote:

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Another conspiracy had charges being set off in the basement and lower levels of the WTC starting fires.

Problem, the fuel tanks of the aircraft ruptured on impact, the plane sliced through the elevator shafts and support columns and burning jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts.

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Two distinct spikes were recorded in the seismic record before the towers collapsed , however. Lends some credence to the testimony of the many eyewitnesses who reported explosions.

quote:

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What proof do you offer that this guy is not just another conspiracy theory hack?

Hopefully not just because he says so. You don't know if this guy was ever even near the WTC let alone an employee on the scene.

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If you "read what this guy had to say immediately after the 9/11 attacks...and what he had to say later..." why would you still try to impeach his character? I won't bother to prove that he's more of a hero than you or I will ever be - that's been done here already. But c'mon.

quote:

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He turned down millions of dollars doing what?

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Book and movie deals, political sponsorship. Seems your "it's just a profiteering racket" explanation doesn't apply here.

quote:

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Nothing about two explosions here, and an apparent acceptance that the fireball came down the elevator, not up from a lower level. Is this really all explained by “editing”?

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Just to be clear, didn't the first plane hit the tower between the 92nd and 98th floors? And the official report suggests that the fireball traveled down the elevator shaft all the way into the basement level, B4? I don't have any idea if this is likely or not, but that's quite a lot of jet fuel...

quote:

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Why would a suit brought by Rodriguez not relate his personal experience, which surely was the most important piece of evidence he could bring to it? Does that seem plausible to you?

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And, yet, why would he be a key witness at all if his personal experience was of no import?

quote:

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One defence made against these criticisms is that Rodriguez account is corroborated by others. This would of course be much more interesting if they were available for us to consider. However, it’s not entirely clear what they are corroborating.

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Has anyone not seen all the news footage of firefighters and others who were in the building at the time claiming to have heard and felt explosions? The video Heart-Shaped Cross posted in FFA shows a great deal of this footage.

quote:

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Rodriguez story is about hearing two explosions, the first originating from below, the second from above. If other witnesses heard, felt or saw one explosion only then they are definitely not supporting him.

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I could be wrong, but I thought Rodriguez talked about hearing an explosion from below before the plane hit.

quote:

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Mixed up in all this is the reaction of the building. Seismic records of the first impact show major movement for over ten seconds as the structure flexes from the initial impact.

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And that's an, um, 2.1 magnitude earthquake?

quote:

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Yep, suddenly this guy remembers explosives for the first time...after he joins a lawsuit.

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Because he's just after money. That perfectly explains why he turned down those movie and book deals!

quote:

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There's no mystery there....except this guys sudden recovery of his memory..."I heard explosions..not rumbles I tell you"

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posted August 26, 2007 05:37 PM            

quote:

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The vast majority of these accounts remained suppressed by the city until the New York Times won a Freedom of Information lawsuit against the City of New York in 2005, and announced the release of the records on August 8, 2005. The newspaper published the accounts in the form of PDF documents.

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(Great site; debunks lots of the dumber 9/11 conspiracy theories, while consistently raising the important questions.)

Rich Banaciski -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
... and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.

Brian Becker -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 28]
The collapse hadn't begun, but it was not a fire any more up there. It was like -- it was like that -- like smoke explosion on a tremendous scale going on up there.

Greg Brady -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [Battalion 6]
We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.

Timothy Burke -- Firefigter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 202]
But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion.

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 53]
we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.

Frank Campagna -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 11]
You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down.

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8]
... you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was.

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
... and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.
...
I look over my shoulder and I says, oh, s___, and then I turned around and looked up and that's when I saw the tower coming down.

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]
.. there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.

Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8]
It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion ...

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.)
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode.

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
... the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out.

Michael Donovan -- Captain (F.D.N.Y.)
I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there.

James Drury -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building.

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.)
Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building.
...
My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
... I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes.

Gregg Hansson -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

John Malley -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off.

James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running.

Joseph Meola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 91]
As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.

Kevin Murray -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 18]
When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino

Janice Olszewski -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.

Daniel Rivera -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) [Battalion 31]
At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that.

Angel Rivera -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
That's when hell came down. It was like a huge, enormous explosion. I still can hear it. Everything shook.

Kennith Rogers -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.

Patrick Scaringello -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)
I started to treat patients on my own when I heard the explosion from up above.

Mark Steffens -- Division Chief (E.M.S.)
Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder ...

John Sudnik -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down. Crazy.

Jay Swithers -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.

David Timothy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
The next thing I knew, you started hearing more explosions. I guess this is when the second tower started coming down.

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out.

Thomas Turilli -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
... it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came.

Stephen Viola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
... that's when the south tower collapsed, and it sounded like a bunch of explosions.

posted August 27, 2007 07:19 PM            

So funny that you accuse Rodriguez, the 9/11 hero who turned down campaign sponsorship, movie deals, etc., of being a profiteer, when Bush and Co. have done nothing but profit from 9/11. And then there are his defense contractor and oil industry backers...!

Yes, some people have made quite a bit of money on 9/11. But it's not those seeking an independent investigation.

Ah, well. Human nature is generally just to believe in what's most comfortable, I guess. And meanwhile, as we fight a war that, by definition, cannot be won, the body count in Iraq rises, our civil liberties melt away, and the defining event of the new millennium fades into the distance...

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire