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Author Topic:   WW2 Behind Closed Doors
Happy Dragon
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posted April 08, 2009 01:09 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WW2 Behind Closed Doors

an info post for those who may be interested ..

' WW2 Behind Closed Doors ' was a television ( uk ) series shown last year ..
subject be the deceptions - the 'deals' - and various political manouvres during WW2

thought it might be on DVD by now .. but could'nt see any info re. that ..

the book might be a good read ..
~ http://www.bbcshop.com/History/World-War-Two-Behind-Closed-Doors-Stalin-the-Nazis-and-the-West/invt/9780563493358 ~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QA with Laurence Rees, writer and producer of the six part BBC/PBS series .. ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To what extent was it possible for the Western Allies to work with one tyrant, Joseph Stalin, in order to defeat another tyrant, Adolf Hitler, and yet still remain untainted themselves? The opening of Soviet archives has provided many unpalatable answers.

The existence of these documents has allowed a true 'behind-the-scenes' history of the West's dealings with Stalin to be attempted. All of which means, I hope, that my findings contain much that is new.

I have been lucky that the collapse of the Eastern Bloc has permitted this work. It was certainly something I could never have predicted would happen when I was taught the history of World War Two at school back in the early 1970s.

Then, my history teacher got round the moral and political complexities of the Soviet Union's participation in the war by the simple expedient of largely ignoring it. At the time, in the depths of the Cold War, that was how most people dealt with the awkward legacy of the West's relationship with Stalin.

It is important to note that the 'Soviet Union' is the accurate term to describe the country at the time of World War Two. However, many people used the word 'Russian' when they meant 'Soviet', and indeed many still do so today. Stalin would often describe the country he ruled as 'Russia', and Churchill, Roosevelt and the Nazis did the same. Not to use the terms 'Soviet' and 'Soviet Union' is to diminish the massive contribution to the war made by citizens from all 16 Soviet republics.)

The focus was on the heroism of the Western Allies - on Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain and D-Day. None of which, of course, must be forgotten. But it is not the whole story.

Before the fall of Communism, the role of the Soviet Union in the World War Two was, to a large extent, denied a proper place in our culture because it was easier than facing up to a variety of unpalatable truths.

Did we, for example, really contribute to the terrible fate that in 1945 befell Poland, the very country we went to war to protect? Especially when we were taught that this was a war about confronting tyranny?

And if, as we should, we do start asking ourselves these difficult questions, then we also have to pose some of the most uncomfortable of all.

Was anyone in the West to blame in any way for what happened at the end of the war? What about the great heroes of British and American history, Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt?

Paradoxically, the best way to attempt an answer to all this is by focusing on someone else entirely - Joseph Stalin. It is Stalin who dominates the work. And a real insight into the Soviet leader's attitude to the war is gained by examining his behaviour immediately before his alliance with the West.

This period, of the Nazi-Soviet pact between 1939 and 1941, has been largely ignored in the popular consciousness. It was certainly ignored in the post-war Soviet Union.

I remember asking one Russian after the fall of the Berlin Wall: 'How was the Nazi-Soviet pact taught when you were in school during the Soviet era? Wasn't it a tricky piece of history to explain away?'

He smiled in response. 'Oh, no,' he said, 'not tricky at all. You see, I didn't learn there had ever been a Nazi-Soviet pact until after 1990 and the collapse of the Soviet Union.'

Stalin's relationship with the Nazis is a vital insight into the kind of person he was, because, at least in the early days of the relationship, he got on perfectly well with them.

The Soviet Communists and the German Nazis had a lot in common - not ideologically, of course, but in practical terms. Each of them respected the importance of raw power.

And each of them despised the values that a man like Franklin Roosevelt held most dear, such as freedom of speech and the rule of law. As a consequence, we see Stalin at his most relaxed carving up Europe with Joachim von Ribbentrop, the Nazi foreign minister.

The Soviet leader was never to attain such a moment of mutual interest and understanding at any point in his relationship with Churchill and Roosevelt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Pact with the Devil ~

It is also important to understand the way in which the Soviets ran their occupation of eastern Poland between 1939 and 1941.

That is because many of the injustices that were to occur in parts of occupied eastern Europe at the end of the war were broadly similar to those the Soviets had previously committed in eastern Poland - the torture, the arbitrary arrests, the deportations, the sham elections and the murders.

What the earlier Soviet occupation of eastern Poland demonstrates is that the fundamental nature of Stalinism was obvious from the start. So it isn't that Churchill and Roosevelt were unaware in the beginning of the kind of regime they were dealing with.

Neither of them was initially enthusiastic about the forced alliance with Stalin following the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941.

Churchill considered it akin to a pact with 'the Devil', and Roosevelt, even though the United States was still officially neutral in the summer of 1941, was careful in his first statement after the Nazi invasion to condemn the Soviets for their previous abuses.

How the British and Americans moved from that moment of justified scepticism about Stalin to the point immediately after the Yalta Conference in February 1945, when they stated, with apparent sincerity, that Stalin 'meant well to the world' and was 'reasonable and sensible', is the meat of the matter.

And the answer to why Churchill and Roosevelt publicly altered their position about Stalin and the Soviet Union doesn't lie just in understanding the massive geo-political issues that were at stake in the war - and crucially the effect on the West of the successful Soviet fight-back against the Nazis - but also takes us into the realm of personal emotions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ The aggressive listener ~

Both Churchill and Roosevelt had gigantic egos and both of them liked to dominate the room. And both of them liked the sound of their own voices. Stalin wasn't like that at all. He was a watcher - an aggressive listener.

It was no accident that it took two highly intelligent functionaries on the British side - Sir Alexander Cadogan, permanent under-secretary at the Foreign Office, and Lord Alanbrooke, chief of the Imperial General Staff - to spot Stalin's gifts most accurately.

They saw him not as a politician playing to the crowd and awash with his own rhetoric, but more like a bureaucrat - a practical man who got things done.

As Cadogan confided in his diary at Yalta: 'I must say I think Uncle Joe [Stalin] much the most impressive of the three men. He is very quiet and restrained... The president flapped about and the PM boomed, but Joe just sat taking it all in and being rather amused. When he did chip in, he never used a superfluous word and spoke very much to the point.' [David Dilks (ed.), 'The Diaries of Sir Alexander Cadogan OM 1938-1945', Cassell, 1971, pp. 708-9, entry for 11 February 1945.]

Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke 'formed a very high idea of his [Stalin's] ability, force of character and shrewdness'. [Alex Danchev and Daniel Todman (ed.), Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke, 'War Diaries 1939-1945', Phoenix, 2002, p. 483, entry for 28 November 1943.]

In particular, Alanbrooke was impressed that Stalin 'displayed an astounding knowledge of technical railway details'. [Alanbrooke, 'War Diaries', p. 608, entry for 15 October, 1944.]

No one would ever accuse Churchill or Roosevelt - those biggest of 'big picture' men - of having 'an astounding knowledge of technical railway details'.

And it was Alanbrooke who spotted early on what was to be the crux of the final problem between Stalin and Churchill: 'Stalin is a realist if ever there was one,' he wrote in his diary, 'facts only count with him...[Churchill] appealed to sentiments in Stalin which I do not think exist there.' [Alanbrooke, 'War Diaries', pp. 299-300, entry for 13 August 1942.]

As one historian has put it, the Western leaders at the end of the war were 'not dealing with a normal, everyday, run-of-the-mill, statesmanlike head of government. They confronted instead a psychologically disturbed, but fully functional and highly intelligent dictator who had projected his own personality not only onto those around him but onto an entire nation and had thereby with catastrophic results, remade it in his image.' [John Lewis Gaddis, 'Presidential Address: The Tragedy of the Cold War', p. 4, quoted in Amos Perlmuter, 'FDR and Stalin: A Not So Grand Alliance', University of Missouri Press, 1993, p. 17.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Careful handling ~

One of the problems was that Stalin in person was very different from the image of Stalin the tyrant. Anthony Eden, one of the first Western politicians to spend time with Stalin in Moscow during the war, remarked on his return that he had tried hard to imagine the Soviet leader 'dripping with the blood of his opponents and rivals, but somehow the picture wouldn't fit'. [Quoted in Ben Pimlott (ed.), 'The Second World War Diaries of Hugh Dalton 1940-1945', Jonathan Cape, 1986, entry for 13 January, 1942, p. 348.]

But Roosevelt and Churchill were sophisticated politicians and it is wrong to suppose that they were simply duped by Stalin. No, something altogether more interesting - and more complicated - takes place in this history.

Roosevelt and Churchill wanted to win the war at the least possible cost to their own respective countries - in both human and financial terms.

Keeping Stalin 'on side', particularly during the years before D-Day when the Soviets believed they were fighting the war almost on their own, was a difficult business and required, as Roosevelt would have put it, 'careful handling'.

As a result, behind closed doors the Western leaders felt it necessary to make hard political compromises. One of them was to promote propaganda that painted a rosy picture of the Soviet leader.

Another was deliberately to suppress material that told the truth about both Stalin and the nature of the Soviet regime.

In the process the Western leaders might easily, for the sake of convenience, have felt they had to 'distort the normal and healthy operation' of their 'intellectual and moral judgements' as one senior British diplomat was memorably to put it during the war. [PRO FO 371/34577, O'Malley's report on Katyn, 24 May 1943.]

~ Facing the consequences ~

But I didn't want to only examine the mentality and beliefs of the elite. I felt from the first that it was also important to show in human terms the impact of the decisions taken by Stalin and the Western Allies behind closed doors.

And so in the course of my research I travelled across the former Soviet Union and Soviet-dominated eastern Europe and asked people who had lived through this testing time to tell their stories.

Uncovering this history was a strange and sometimes emotional experience. And - at least to me - it all seemed surprisingly fresh and relevant.

I felt this most strongly standing in the leafy square by the opera house in Lviv. This elegant city had started the 20th century in the Austro-Hungarian empire, become part of Poland after World War One, then part of the Soviet Union between 1939 and 1941, then part of the Nazi Empire until 1944, then part of the Soviet Union again, until finally in 1991 it became part of an independent Ukraine.

At various times in the last hundred years the city has been called Lemberg, Lvov, Lwów and Lviv.

There was not one group of citizens I met there who had not at one time or another suffered because of who they were. Catholic or Jew, Ukrainian, Russian or Pole, they had all faced persecution in the end.

It was the Nazis, of course, who operated the most infamous and murderous policy of persecution against the Jews of the city, but we are apt to forget that such was the change and turmoil in this part of central Europe that ultimately few non-Jews escaped suffering of one kind or another either.

I was fortunate to have a chance to meet these witnesses to history - all the more so since in the near future there will be no one left alive who personally experienced the war.

And after having spent so much time with these veterans from the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc I am left with an overwhelming sense of the importance of recovering their history as part of our own.

Our nations were all in the war together. And we owe it to them, and to ourselves, to face up to the consequences of that truth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
( from ~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/ww2_behind_closed_doors_01.shtml ~ )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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katatonic
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posted April 08, 2009 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
fascinating reading, HD...

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Happy Dragon
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posted April 08, 2009 06:12 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'm hoping it makes it to DVD .. as .. for me it would be worth watching again ..
the actor who portrayed Stalin was excellent at the role .. .. chilling .. ..
it's intermixed with archive footage ..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

couldn't help but think of blazing saddles on seeing this ..
sort of wondering what mel brooks could do with a lenin character ..

( ~ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/europe/7976883.stm ~ )

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Mannu
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posted April 09, 2009 03:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice read.

Kat somewhere you argued why Hitler wasn't a socialist because he attacked Russia.

I was thinking:
Hitler was a neo pagan and just because he attacked Russia does not mean he is not a socialist.

Russians (or Soviet union back then) hates or atleast had zero tolerance for any religion and therefore naturally will resist alliance with Germany.

Hitlers goal was dominance of the Aryan race all over the world. Stalin seems to have enjoyed the power the people bestowed on him. Hmmm, will be interesting to find how he managed to screw the Russians so well.


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katatonic
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posted April 09, 2009 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>


Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsô-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

hitler was a fascist dictator. the soviet union was run on socialist lines. there are differences; and despite uncle joe stalin's assuming dictatorship, socialism is not about dictators.

edit: there are many garden varieties of socialism. having a national health system does not make a country socialist, though it IS a socialist program. regulating business is not necessarily socialist. we have regulations in place now for the protection of the average joe. rule by law involves regulation to a degree...having ALL production and services nationalized is full socialism.

what is interesting about this series, or looks interesting since i haven't seen it, is that the black-and-white political view of the war that is taught in schools is exposed as a lie. for some reason we are taught that the czars were reasonably benign monarchs but the stories i know from russia are from the time BEFORE the revolution. people had reason to want change then, and if they jumped out of the frying pan into the fire, it's hard to blame them!

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AcousticGod
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posted April 09, 2009 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Kat.

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Glaucus
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posted April 09, 2009 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I am glad that Jesse Owens ran way with the Berlin Olympics and put a big dent in the Aryan superiority theory!

hahahahaha

Raymond

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Happy Dragon
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posted April 10, 2009 09:56 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
info re: Hitler and 'Socialism' ..

National Socialism
~ http://wapedia.mobi/en/National_Socialism ~
Nazism
~ http://wapedia.mobi/en/Nazi ~
National Socialist Program
~ http://wapedia.mobi/en/National_Socialist_Program ~

" The National Socialist program also contained a number of points that supported democracy and even called for wider democratic rights. These, like much of the program, lost their importance as the Party evolved, and were ignored by the Nazis after they rose to power. "

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jwhop
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posted April 10, 2009 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Meeting. [3] [4] . The program advocated uniting the German people (through Pan-Germanism), implementing profit-sharing in industry, nationalizing trusts, providing an extensive welfare state, instituting government control of the media"

Exactly. Hitler was a Socialist and so is Barack Hussein O'Bomber. Gee, O'Bomber is already well on his way attempting to establish the United States as the United Socialist States of America.

He's been busy nationalizing US financial institutions, nationalizing the insurance industry, nationalizing the auto industry, putting other socialists on the boards of directors of corporations, putting other socialists on committees overseeing the business activities of corporations, establishing a socialist welfare state, attempting to establish a Socialist Health Care System and attempting to tell corporations what they can pay their CEOs and other corporate employees.

Not bad for only about 100 days in office.

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katatonic
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posted April 10, 2009 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
nevermind that the nationalizing you mention was actually put in place by his predecessor, just continue to lay it all on obama...

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jwhop
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posted April 10, 2009 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, Bush authorized bailing out some financial institutions.

It's the grubby little Socialist O'Bomber who is doing the actual nationalizing of industries in the private sector...firing CEOs and threatening to fire other CEOs in and out of the financial sector and the auto sector.

This is the mark of a little Socialist tyrant meddling in the business sector.

It's absurd on it's face that this meddling little Socialist couldn't read a balance sheet, wouldn't even recognize a balance sheet without the heading, couldn't put together a business plan but tells GM their business plan doesn't meet his expectations.

This is Bugs Bunny stuff. What a Maroon.

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katatonic
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posted April 10, 2009 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
you talk as if he is acting alone. which you know is p---ing in the wind..you know also that a lot of people don't see it your way.

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jwhop
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posted April 10, 2009 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What you should know is that I don't give a flying flip how you personally view the grubby little Socialist O'Bomber. He is what he is and what he is...is a Marxist Socialist.

You would...if you made the least effort to do so...realize the bailout happened with only 3 total votes by Republicans in the Congress of the United States and most conservative Republicans would like to throw these morons out of the US Senate. So, your attempt to spread the blame around for nationalizing banks, and insurance companies falls on other Socialists in the Congress...almost all democrats. In this incarnation of democrats, democrat=Socialist.

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katatonic
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posted April 10, 2009 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
first of all you obviously do care or you wouldn't have spent the last how many years talking about this subject. or asking me if i'm going to change my vote, which frankly is private business...

secondly your equating the nationalizing of fascist germany with socialism in general is a crock. in socialism the nationalization puts ownership in the worker's and voters' hands, and in fascism it does no such thing.

but like you said on the money forum, if you believe totalitarian socialism is imminent, it will be, and if you believe partial socialism can be used to balance inequities out, so will that be.

and if you shoot a horse on its way out of the starting gate you'll never know if it could have won.

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jwhop
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posted April 10, 2009 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not interested in seeing Socialism win in America. A win anywhere by Socialism is a loss of freedom and liberty for citizens. I'm totally against O'Bomber and have been since I first heard the bungling, incompetent corrupt messages coming out of his mouth.

I repeat: I don't give a flying flip how you personally view O'Bomber. I was here long before you and posting the same kinds of posts aimed straight at the moronic, incompetent, corrupt Socialists posing as Liberals.

The entire purpose of O'Bomber's intent to levy heavy taxes on business is....to spread the wealth they produce to the non productive members of the American society. In other words...that sharing of the profits produced by business to "The People". By vesting ownership of corporations in the United States government, O'Bomber IS putting ownership of businesses in the hands of "workers and voters".

"but like you said on the money forum, if you believe totalitarian socialism is imminent, it will be, and if you believe partial socialism can be used to balance inequities out, so will that be."

I'm going to ask you to prove I ever said what you quote me as having said.

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katatonic
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posted April 10, 2009 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
that was what we call a paraphrase. it applies equally to politics as to money. not sure i have time to find it but i've seen it a couple of times.

edit:
"I'm with Randall..
If you think you can't get rich, you can't. If you listen to people who tell you, "you can't get rich", you won't.

If you think you don't deserve to be rich, you're right and you won't be."

and if you think all democrats are leftist creeps...that's all you'll see.


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jwhop
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posted April 10, 2009 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hardly a paraphrase of what I said...or anything near what I said.

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katatonic
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posted April 10, 2009 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what you see is what you get, herbert

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Mannu
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posted April 10, 2009 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What is the difference between a Hitler wanting a pure aryan race to succeed and an Obama wanting Americans to drive American only made cars?

We can never get moralists to agree on everything. So heh, socialism is here -- why resist? Just get carried away. Lets get the innovation out of the automobile industry. The poor has remained poor with socialism. So let the american automobile industry continue to function the way it always did. Jeez, I hope they don't raise taxes on foreign made cars which I continue to plan to buy. I can't imagine myself driving a american made car in the next 3 years. They were terrible before and I bet it will be more terrible now after the Obama rescue.
Socialism sucks.

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katatonic
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posted April 10, 2009 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the difference is one is about business and the other is about race, something you can't do anything about. you are born whatever you are. you can buy wherever you want within limits...

i agree with you about american cars by the way. though i had a gorgeous 55 belair once...and a rambler that would have gone on forever if my boyfriend hadn't caught it on fire!

most politics suck. but even hitler left something valuable to remember him by - the volkswagen.

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Mannu
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posted April 10, 2009 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"but even hitler left something valuable to remember him by - the volkswagen"

Ignorance was indeed bliss. Now everytime I will see a beetle , I will see Hitler in it.

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katatonic
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posted April 11, 2009 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
whatever else hitler was, the beetle was a brainstorm of an idea.. not that he designed the thing, but he did specify requirements. however it is not as good a car as the actual british minis which get even better mileage, steer better and come with a bit of zip in the accelerator pedal! i don't think the mini would have happened without the volkswagen though, which was a prototype for economy cars. i BELIEVE.

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Mannu
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posted April 12, 2009 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"the difference is one is about business and the other is about race"

But Hitler used the failure of Germany's businesses to incite hatred for the Jews. He made the christians of his country hate the successfull jews. He even made them believe Jews must be killed because they killed Jesus.

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katatonic
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posted April 13, 2009 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yes of course, the economy of the time made a scapegoat easy to create...but it wasn't just jews who were fingered; despite hitler being dark haired and eyed, it was pretty much anyone who did not fit the "aryan" picture. especially anyone on the fringe of society, gypsies, immigrants, etc.

we are in a time with a lot of similarities. so it is not a bad idea to keep your antennae out and be wary of our leaders. however it's not necessarily a good idea to jump to the conclusion that any moves in a socialist direction are the signposts to nazism...

as lambchop has pointed out, and others as well, during the depression FDR used some pretty socialist measures to help get the country back to work, to shore up the dollar, etc; but we had no mirror of hitler's germany just because of that! it's important not to get too paranoid or carried away with yourself but also remain vigilant.

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Happy Dragon
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posted April 13, 2009 04:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
prev. typed up a post re : mini's and beetles ..

seems like ..
economics was the driving force behind the designers ideas ..

the 1956 suez crisis coupled with fuel rationing .. reason for mini design and production ..
the 'driving' side of a mini came from the designers racing experience ..
( i.e. why the where successful as a car for 'driving' )
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Alec_Issigonis ~

" the rigidity of the rubber cones, together with the wheels being pushed out to the corners of the car, gave the Mini go kart-like handling that would become famous. "
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini ~

~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Outspan_Orange.jpg ~ ..

i went to look at info re: economics in 1931 germany ..
that's when mr.porche ( virgo ) came up with the 'peoples car' concept and design ..
" .. a reincarnation of the small car concept from his days at Daimler-Benz in Stuttgart. " ( early 1900's )
in partnership with 'zundapp' who were into motorcycles ..
( mr.hitler .. in 1933 .. asked/ordered mr.porche to go ahead with production )

~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vw_beetle ~
some good pics on that page re mr.porche's shapely design ..
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche ~
it could have ended up looking like a citroen .. :-))
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Porsche_Typ12_Model_Nuremberg.jpg ~

that's also when my computer froze ..
( and prev type up for post was auto trashed )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wonder if anyone has gone coast to coast ( usa ) on a rollerboard and adapted-for-road-use ski poles .. yet ..

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