posted October 04, 2002 01:25 PM           

Thanks for share with us your thoughts...
After all this is the purpose of this forum !
And, as you said and I totally agree,no one has the absolutely and definitive answer !

posted October 04, 2002 01:36 PM           

Wise words !!!!

posted October 04, 2002 01:38 PM           

Jakie

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.
But the opposite of a profound truth may be another profound truth."
--Niels Bohr

posted October 04, 2002 07:33 PM           

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Jeremiah - 7:22-24

"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels [and] in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward."
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The law books specifically state that the laws of sacrifice were part of the Laws of Moses, which Moses supposedly received while on Mount Sinai.
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Leviticus 7:5- 37-38

" and the priest shall burn them on the altar as an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a trespass offering. This is the law of the burnt offering, the grain offering and the sin offering and the guilt offering and the ordination offering and the sacrifice of peace offerings, which Lord commanded Moses at Mount Sinai in the day that He commanded the sons of Israel to present their offerings to Lord in the wilderness of Sinai."

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This statement clearly conflicts with the version of events given by Jeremiah in these passage.
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Jeremiah 8:7-8

"Even the stork in the heavens Knows her appointed times; And the turtledove, the swift, and the swallow Observe the time of their coming. But My people do not know the judgment of the Lord. How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us'? "Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood."
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This rejection is echoed in the book of Isaiah.
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Isaiah 1:11-12

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the Lord. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats. "When you come to appear before Me, Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts?

Isaiah 66:3

"He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog's neck; He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine's blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations"
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posted October 04, 2002 07:39 PM           

The Bible is contradictory, and presents variant records of both historical events and doctrines, which on examination prove to be mutually exclusive.

This is most obvious when considering "history" as it is presented in the Bible. If one record of events said that I went out to buy milk on a specific Friday, and another record of events declares that on that same Friday I did not leave the house, the two records are mutually exclusive ,in that if one proves to be accurate, it excludes the other. Both cannot be true.

I just want to clarify that the belief that Moses was not the author of the Old Testament, and that the Bible was never 'infallible' is (ironically) one of the traditions that compose the Bible itself. It is not a novelty, nor is it a 'heresy' but as the record indicates, believing that the Bible WAS NOT infallible was one of the (hotly contested) core doctrines of the very earliest church.

To silence these voices is to support a position that cannot be supported ( it is easy to demonstrate that the Bible is both fallible and errant).

I don't want to RUINS PEOPLE'S FAITH, but I think that the best way to honor the Bible, and to treat it with reverence, is to acknowledge the ideological conflicts in its pages, something that is never done by either those who claim to be defending the Bible (by 'proving' it is 'inerrant') or by those who attack the Bible (who never treat the diverse voices on its pages with any sort of respect, but, then, this is not their goal, and so why should they).

So,here I finished what Bases Loaded called a combat,and what I call "opinion"

Jakie

posted October 05, 2002 11:48 AM         

Not to say it is not possible, but I think Hollywood has gotten to you.

posted October 07, 2002 02:16 AM           

Thanks to everyone who took time to pay attention and reply to my tiny little post in the middle of all these bigger more educated posts. Just wanted to spread love to all..

posted October 07, 2002 09:38 AM           

We can see that sacrifices were not the true desire of the people. Jeremiah and Isaiah were not contradictory, but according to the law. That's why Jesus mentioned thess Isaiah's words later: "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men'".

Sacrifices are nothing for God if they don't feel the true desire in their hearts. Those were hypocrites sacrifices. It's so easy to understand the Bible... but that's a problem for those who only come to mark deffects instead of searching for the truth.

posted October 07, 2002 10:55 AM           

Do you realize that the catholics killed more people in the name of religion than Hitler did for his one race belief? (by the way it has also been said, that the catholics were going to help him to rid the world of heresy)
If you do not believe this Look it up in your history books. There is proof in what I am saying. There are documents from the catholic popes with times and numbers and names of the people killed in different years. There are Jewish, Muslim, Prodastant,witches and many others that were killed because they were not catholic!!
That is my example of the religions using the Bible for their own Gains........
My belief is that... My God, the God that I believe in, would never do those horrible things. Killing-Torture-Burn-ect.

posted October 09, 2002 12:13 AM           

Just an example, I don't agree that homosexuals will burn in hell as some Catholics do. I beleive and KNOW in my heart that God loves us all and understands us better than we understand ourselves. I don't pray primarily to the Virgin Mary as my grandmother, a strict ROman Catholic does. I pray to the Lord God, the son and the holy spirit. I love Mary and have prayed to her, but God is my God. I take the core and the basis of the religion and try to see that. LIke you Mary, I don't want to be blinded by the word of men, who time and time again have negative intent, or their own prejudices, which I don't want in my life. All I do know is that miracles happen.

This is going to sound funny. But this is something I used to say as a teen to other teens. You know how a discoball lights up a room, beautiful lights going all over the room from one rotating ball? The discoball is like God. And the room is the world. And we all view the discoball from our part of the room, or world. We all see a different square, yet it all comes from the same source of light. We can argue about the color or intensity of light, but what we don't even realize is we all have out paths brightened by the same source, the discoball.

posted October 09, 2002 12:38 AM           

I neither want to defend nor to accuse no one.
I just believe that we should not judge a religion or a people as a "whole".
The humanity's history is made of murders.

We can mention germans killing jews, gypsies and homosexuals.
Japanese killed thousands of Chinese.
Twenty million Russians died in the Second World War.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

English conquered an empire, that today doesn't exist anymore, but this "empire" caused the death of thousands [maybe million] of lives in India, Palestine and in the Middle East.
We cannot forget that in the peak of it's power, Great - Britain governed more than half of the Muslims of the world.

During the 15 years of military engagement in Vietnam, 56 thousand American soldiers dies and more than 300 thousand goes back home mutilated or with permanent deficiency. The Vietnamese lose two million lives in the fight for the independence of his country.

In South America, thousands of people lost their lives during the military regimes of Brazil, Argentina and Chile. That finally ended fifteen years ago.

Bosnia-Herzogovina.All the tribal wars in Africa.
Jews and Palestinian are killing each other NOW.
Indian and Pakistani are killing each other for the area of Kashmir NOW.

I could continue the list ,but ....for what ?

The great majority of the wars has in reality the financial power behind the back stages, but many wars were made on behalf of God, they are ,what I call "Crimes of God ".

In the last century, the religion had a triumphal return. Catholic and Protestant, Muslims and Jews - all decided to demonstrate their love for God massacring each other.

But,does God have anything to do with that?
Of course not.
The crimes were not committed by a religion, but for people that acted on behalf of this religion.

A religion doesn't kill people.
People kill people.

posted October 09, 2002 01:13 AM           

I wish I could comprehend why people go to such lengths for a religion. Do they think God will reward them for murder, torture, and condemnation? And I think the most dispicable religious people are those that justify their actions because they will be rewarded (with Heaven or whatever). Isn't it more rewarding to do something good for someone without expecting anything? And the ones who glorify themselves for doing great things are disgusting.

I am studying sociology in college right now, and it is incredible how the pendulum swings to such extremes. Don't we have a brain among us? Can't we do something about it? Or are we as humans destined to fight over holy books and their interpretations, and hate those that don't believe in our opinions?

posted October 09, 2002 09:50 AM           

( this can be said of alot of religions)
( this is just one example)

Do you realize the if the Catholic churches had to pay taxes, just the portion on property would pay off the national dept...

posted October 09, 2002 11:09 PM           

haha?!

posted October 09, 2002 11:15 PM           

I want to speak here about my deception with religion in general and with the Catholic church in special.

This happened in my first trip to New York, that was also my first trip to a foreign country.
I was a teen, religion was not a great issue for me , and after all, it was a pleasure trip.

I remember that was very cold, I don't know the temperature in farenheit, but it was so cold ...

On that morning, I went to visited San Patrick's Cathedral.
When I entered, I was fascinated. It was so big, imposing, magnificent.
After doing the reverence to Christ's image , and a brief prayer, I sat down.
On that moment, I began to observe who was at my side.
And what I saw it's in my mind until today.

At my side there were beggars with torn clothes.
People that didn't have where to take shelter of the cold.

Then I looked around me and I saw so much luxury, so much wealth.
Something was very wrong. That place was wrong. That church was wrong. I was wrong.

Many years passed and I had the opportunity to know several countries and several cathedrals.
In France, England, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Vatican... and that scene never left my head.

That "man" that died in the cross didn't talk about that. His message was distorted and disfigured.
On that day a Catholic girl died, but a better human being was born.
But the price that I had to pay was too high.

Starting from that day I began to study all the religions. Today I believe in "parts" of each one of them but I admit that I would be much happier if when somebody ask me which is my religion, I could answer without hesitating: Catholic...Baptist...Buddhist... Jew...Yogi...Muslim...

...but I don't have an answer...

posted October 09, 2002 11:22 PM           

I just saw your last post...I think I'm lost here

posted October 10, 2002 09:24 AM           

But I think that was a wonderful story... we all get the truth at some point in time, you did get it very young.

posted October 10, 2002 12:59 PM           

Back to our matter, I have to say I did not apologize, but I should. If someone could feel as offended due to my words, please understand that has never been my intention; I´m really sorry.

Sometimes I felt as misunderstood when posting my viewpoints. The reason is very simple: I´ve always defended the Bible since I took its study as a serious occupation. After that I never saw, during years, a proof to question the integrity of the Book. All those supposed contradictions are solved when we are familiarized with all the Bible, for it is only one book (my research gave that personal conclusion to me). There´s a solid reason to say it is ONE book; let´s remember some writers recognized they did not understand what they themselves were writing: "it was beyond understanding" (Daniel 8:27; 12:8,9). It means that understanding could be in other portion of the Bible.

But many of those accusations I mentioned above came from priests, shepherds, bishops, etc. Those men, who should defend the Bible, are really the enemies of the Book. That hypocrisy really sounds repulsive to me. They know the Bible condemns their practices. Therefore, when they had almost all the power in their hands (middle ages) they forbade translating and reading the Book, considered ´too sacred´ by them, a "reason" to forbid it. Later, when they were losing that power and the Bible began being available for common people, they started making accusations against the Book. Always the same purpose: justifying their conducts.

I wanna say I do understand every statement you all have posted here, although I do not share all of them. My invitation is still present: read the Bible and search for its knowledge. Daniel knew why he couldn´t understand those words and visions, "because the words [were] closed up and sealed until the time of the end" (Daniel 12:9). Are we in that time? We´ll have to investigate. If we are we´ll be able to understand what Daniel couldn´t.